[Suggestion] Endless tower survival.

[Lisztomaniac]

So, as most WF players that have been playing for more than a few months have noticed, WF has no endgame, when someone talks about endgame people just come up with BS like "fashion frame is endgame" and what not, warframe is all about repeating the same cycle,  and this has been hurting my and im sure a lot of other people experience, 

so i just thought i should throw that out there, some of you might remember the old void, a place where you would get incremental dificulty in exchange for more prime drops, however that experience is not quite removed from the game, as you can go into void fissure survival or any other endless and open a few relics in the same run, the problem ive found with this is that the game still has you running around like headless chickens for 40-60 min spaming rifts and relics to get primes, this is tedious and repetitive.

so while thinking what could be done to improve a game like warframe, a question came to my mind "what kind of genre is warframe", because if you want an endgame first you must know what genre youre on. diferent endgames fit diferent genres, the answer to my question was. warframe is; under that 3rd person camera, under that awesome parkour warframe is at the core not simply a TPS or FPS, the only thing warframe has in common with common shooters is that you shoot, warframe is more of the likeness of diablo or torchlight or maybe helldivers, warframe is more like a diablo than it is a destiny or a titanfall.

so what type of endgame fits this game? well the answer was already present before and i think most people knew the answer the moment void was nerfed, warframe best endgame is endless, but not endless as in the way a survival void fissure is endless right now, which is replaying the same 5 minutes over and over again with increased dificulty, 45mins will look more caothic than a 5 min run sure, but is the same gameplay at the core, youre doing the same thing over and over, if the mission is corpus youre fighting corpus for an hour, if you chose grineer youre fighting grineer for 45 mins, add to this the fact that your team will be running like headless chickens (probably outside of the affinity range) for that ammount of time, and youre in for a long session of running aimlessly. and thats the problem with current endless missions, they lack a direction, a point you want to reach, a goal (barring of course defense/interception missions as their objective is to survive the wave and you cant quit before it) and here is where my suggestion comes into play:

meet the LORE TOWER SURVIVAL (VOID TOWER CHALLENGES? UNUM TOWER SURVIVAL MAYBE?)

i chose lore in the name because the way i picutre this being implemented is as some kin of simmulacrum tower or a tower that has corrupted pieces of history/discarded pieces of history traped inside its floors (so to explain why all the factions are present here).

here are the rough details i came up with:

• instead of being a random farm for where stray headless chicken go to die, the tileset has to have a sense of direction, with a clear starting point and a "finish line"
• floors would end in an elevator (finish line) that would take you to the next floor.
• elevators wont open untill specific conditions are met. 5mins time, short mobile defenses, carrying a datamass, pressing two consoles at two diferent points on the map, finding something to pry open the elevator, surviving an insane infested rush with no revives, etc.
• once the elevator opens you get to roll on the rewards for that floor, once inside the elevator the team is presented with an extraction choice, "leave with your loot, or risk it for better loot". 
• once the elevator opens up in the new floor, there are a few things that will have changed:

 

1. you can only extract after floor 4,5/9,10/14,15, etc.
2. objective/conditions will change , some times it will be to survive for 2 mins against difficult hordes, some times it will be no revives untill one player reaches the elevator, some times it will be finding a space crowbar to pry open the elevator to advance, or even hacking and pressing two consoles at diferent ends of the map. (just ideas)
3. envirormental conditions (fire/ice/magnetism/etc.) can be present and change with each floor, not always present as some times the difficulty will be in the enemies themselves 
4. every 5 floors would see a random faction change (this would force players into building  squads or at least well rounded loadouts that can cover any kind of situation thrown at you)
5. -every 5 floors would conclude in a "sub-boss" or "generals", sub-bosses/generals would be special/elite units buffed into boss status, like a beefed up eximus nullifying manic, or a giant teleporting nuking batalyst  with vombalyst mobs, maybe two stalkers, or a complete pack of steroid driven grustrag 3 followed by a ghoul pack (ghoulstrag 3?)
6. -every 10 floors would be a true boss, buffed into eximusboss status, this could be either greatly buffed bosses (supervor?) pairs of bosses (alav fight with hyena pack instead of zanuka?) or a slightly buffed boss accompanied by a subboss (raptor fight with grustrag adds? shadowstalker with sentients?). killing bosses would add small stackable xp/credit/ressource boosters the way endless missions do now. also it should give 1-2 revives back to the players.
7. after floor 30 maybe ? you start getting two rewards, i cant seem to come up with a reward for long run players that compares to the risks they are running taking into account how the game scales, plus floor 30 should be around 40-50 mins of playtime, passing this point youd get twice the drops, but the risk would be ridiculous.

 

• for all this to work tho, and for people to risk it the rewards for bosses/sub-bosses have to be dramatically better than the rest of the rewards, as in the worst being a built forma/event-mods/stacks of nitain or maybe lots of credits, and as the game goes on and on, these are replaced by more and more valuable things such as  primes/lenses/arcanes/xH-boosters this way when you get to lets say floor 34 extraction screen, you have the choice, leave or risk fighting whoever is past that door, because you know, that you most likely will get two primes out of that fight, but you also know the chances of getting out alive are really slim.

final notes:

 i came up with this idea when farming primes for ducats, i realized the most fun in this game was being in a place where youre uncertaing that youll make it out, but at the same time youre being rewarded greatly for said risks. but survival is not like this, at any point you know you can leave, it makes you feel like youre being rewarded for your patience rather than being rewarded for your effort, defense missions are less like this in the sense that you dont have the comodity of extraction on demand and they actually give you an objective or goal, but they make you feel like a stationary turret, so maybe something that combines the best of both things, the freedom of survival while also having an objective or a goal to aim for, said objective being a boss that youre not even sure youre going to beat to begin with.

by addind all thjese underused starchart bosses  to the proccess i think it gives it more of an endgame feeling, making said bossses be rewarding makes  forr a really highrisk-high reward gaming experience, rather than this low-risk casino-like reward system we got currently(its my opinion that warframe should shift it focus to great boss battles instead of being a loot-gathering game with no goal). maybe its just me that would like this, but i just feel like while some people dont like the word "endgame" in WF, the truth is no online game can survive withouth endgame and this just felt like a nice mix of all the things that could make for a nice gameplay experience.

DISSCLAIMER:

everything in this post is an "onthego" suggestion, take the rewards/numbers with a grain of salt, its all to paint a picture for players to mold, not suggestions set in stone, as im not running the numbers and making the math to see how it would work, just putting the framework, feel free to add your suggestions/opinions.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Lisztomaniac

[INight00]

So... Devil May Cry - Bloody Palace with Simulacrum vast database put together?
Add to that - the mastery rank up tests with standard mission gameplay?
Rewards based on the enemy difficulty and floor level (time spent) as opposed to rng?

Yes.

I take it sortie "conditions" are mixed in there too?

Edited January 3, 2018 by INight00

[Lisztomaniac]

il y a 6 minutes, INight00 a dit :

So... Devil May Cry - Bloody Palace with Simulacrum vast database put together?
Add to that - the mastery rank up tests with standard mission gameplay?
Rewards based on the enemy difficulty and floor level (time spent) as opposed to rng?

Yes.

I take it sortie "conditions" are mixed in there too?

as an all time Dmc, fan im stunned that youd bring bloody palace up, tear to my eye, yeah kinds like a bloody palace with actuall levels instead of just a circle arena.

regarding sorties, i guess my suggestion could in a way be called "endless sortie" of sorts, starting easier than sorties with the posibility to getting even harder than sorties could ever be, if you take the risk that is.

[INight00]

I kind of imagine a terrain similar to the simulacrum/ dojo obstacle course, a mission condition is shown on the screen (can be a sortie/ or nightmare mission condition, i.e electromagnetic anomalies or no shield mode).
In a squad, every member only gets one life. Until you progress to the next floor.
Mission type is then declared, its a survival with a timer, the timer will not go down to 0:00 so you will not progress, unless you kill enemies, each enemy depending on size/ tier will reduce the clock by a set amount.
Enemies are never of a single faction. This means they will attack each other as well. Which can also mean the player needs to be able to adjust to various situations, bullets flying constantly.

If I understood that correctly, 4 floors of random mission types you can choose to extract or continue to the '5th' round to fight a 'boss'? After defeating said boss you get a predetermined drop type. Similarly as per the relic system every boss defeated (or every 5 floors) you get a booster stack similar to relics.

This has potential.
The only 'problem' I could see with it is, if you introduce arcanes, what will this say about the currently discontinued Raids.
Also how saturated will it be, will it be solo or will there be (like the Teralyst Hunt) specialized squads to conquer it?

I suppose a way to bypass this is to make the maps not a horizontal plane, but a 3 dimensional one similar to our mastery rank tests. You don't just go forward, back left and right. You can go up and down (on foot). The simulacrum/ dojo obstacle course can make it so each map is randomized without stressing on detail. Also with dojo obstacle course getting a rework... you can put down more traps/ turrets/ environmental hazards.

Some floors can be purely on foot, others AW, others both.

Edited January 3, 2018 by INight00

[Lisztomaniac]

il y a 26 minutes, INight00 a dit :

I kind of imagine a terrain similar to the simulacrum/ dojo obstacle course, a mission condition is shown on the screen (can be a sortie/ or nightmare mission condition, i.e electromagnetic anomalies or no shield mode).
In a squad, every member only gets one life. Until you progress to the next floor.
Mission type is then declared, its a survival with a timer, the timer will not go down to 0:00 so you will not progress, unless you kill enemies, each enemy depending on size/ tier will reduce the clock by a set amount.
Enemies are never of a single faction. This means they will attack each other as well. Which can also mean the player needs to be able to adjust to various situations, bullets flying constantly.

If I understood that correctly, 4 floors of random mission types you can choose to extract or continue to the '5th' round to fight a 'boss'? After defeating said boss you get a predetermined drop type. Similarly as per the relic system every boss defeated (or every 5 floors) you get a booster stack similar to relics.

This has potential.
The only 'problem' I could see with it is, if you introduce arcanes, what will this say about the currently discontinued Raids.
Also how saturated will it be, will it be solo or will there be (like the Teralyst Hunt) specialized squads to conquer it?

I suppose a way to bypass this is to make the maps not a horizontal plane, but a 3 dimensional one similar to our mastery rank tests. You don't just go forward, back left and right. You can go up and down (on foot). The simulacrum/ dojo obstacle course can make it so each map is randomized without stressing on detail. Also with dojo obstacle course getting a rework... you can put down more traps/ turrets/ environmental hazards.

Some floors can be purely on foot, others AW, others both.

i had pictured it with existing tileset changing depending on faction, to allow DE to recycle, but i now preffer your idea of simmulacrum tileset, ive always thought mastery test tileset have so much unexploited potential, and this could be the chance. however i would it it to keep the complexity of the usual level, so that it feels natural, but with the challenges of a mastery test attached to it, like a n inbetween mix of both things.

regarding enemies of  multiple factions, i had though maybe alternating factions would be better as 3 factions rushing you would be too much of a mess of flying things and effects. but i like the idea of having the fight each other, while you do your mission, feels ninjay.

about arcanes, maybe this could be the way to keep them after raids, i personally have been a WF player for abour 3-4 years and ive never even bothered to get a single arcane, ive wanted them yes, but i was in no way going to cordinate with 8 people to get one, if there is one thing i like about warframe is how isolated you can play the game, which takes me to the next point:

"Also how saturated will it be, will it be solo or will there be (like the Teralyst Hunt) specialized squads to conquer it?"

 i had thought something that you can do solo or on a group, there would of course be co-op only objectives but much like the yellow doors that exist ingames right now, said objectives would be restricted to groups depending on their size. like, you can have an objective that ask for 4 individual consoles to be pressed in the same second (similar to the aformentioned doors) but this objective would be restricted to a squad of 4 people, groups of 2-3 players would get two consoles, and solo players wouldnt get the objective, so while i picture co-op objectives, nothing as complicated as an eidolon hunt, thats why i think bosses and subbosses should be enemies from the starchart, familliar enough but altered enough that it challenges your understanding of the game, naturally players with a better understanding/preparation in the game would respond better to what the game throws at them. and thats the point, playing old content through new eyes, and at the same time, put our understanding of the game to the test.

 this should be its own thing, leave big open world bosses as the teralyst and the upcoming megalyst/rainalyst and whatever else gets implemented down the line, leave that as open world bosses as their own thing, you wanna experience old content in a new, harder and more rewarding way as an alternative to hunting? play this, you want the challenge of a big open wold boss fight?, go hunt. i think the exclusivity should remain. and open world bosses remain only in the open world, it would be too much for a random group if you suddently threw an steroid driven eidolon on them, it would be hilarious yes, but it could never work.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Lisztomaniac

[INight00]

...this needs to be a thing.
It's too good not to be. Potential. Could be developed and updated along side all the planets getting their OW maps.

20 minutes ago, Lisztomaniac said:

however i would it it to keep the complexity of the usual level, so that it feels natural,

The procedural generation in-game can be put to the test with levels. The levels being flat were more catered to the old parkour system.
With parkour 2.0 we can reach new heights and faster, mix in operator mobility and you can get to places a lot faster than with your warframe. 

Fair enough with the arcanes, but while we have the 1-4 rotations, the round 5 rotations, you could make it so it goes for every 20 as well.
So it would be:

1 - A
2 - A
3 - B
4 - C
5 - D
6 - A
7 - A
8 - B
9 - C
10 - D
...filler
19 - C
20 - E
21 - A
22 - A

A player can expect to complete some rounds relatively quickly. i/e exterminates, captures, sabotages and rescues - should they pop-up

[Lisztomaniac]

to give you an idea of how complicated things would be this is a boss fight in my head:

lets say floor 20 boss, you enter the room, the jackal room, with the elevator on the other side, only in the middle is not the jackal but the "healing eximus shadow stalker" sitting in the middle as you walk out of the elevator you notice something, on the two corners of the room behind the stalker, two gravity conveyors, and as you see the stalker stand up, one "leech eximus shield osprey raptor" rises from each conveyor, players with a lack of understanding or preparation, will rush the stalker and die, or maybe one will notice he is being shielded by the giant thing, and kill the giant thing, but another one rises, and one after another, but since this player never faced the raptor he doesnt know how to destroy the conveyors, but anyone with a little understanding of how the stalker works, or how the raptor works, will either burst down the stalker using the operator, or maybe go straight for the raptors+conveyors and ignore the stalker, maybe another player brought a wide variety of status and he will just overcharge the stalker resistances,  the thing here is not about a planned strategy about expected bosses, its about being prepared with understanding in the game, to those who know the game might be a cakewalk, to those unprepared it might be hard as hell, fast forward 20 floors, floor 40 you dont know what to expect after that floor 30 "guardian eximus vor+krill" with "hyena pack shield eximus" adds, you walk into the room, and you see the same as in floor 20, stalker in the middle, only now its 4 gravity conveyors, as you walk closer to the stalker you notice far to the left and far to the right, one accolyte on each side. but at this point youre getting two rewards on individual rolls, and youve probably been there for over an hour.

maybe this would be too unfair i dont know, just a general idea i had.

edit: maybe in this specific setup if your luck is bad enough its "teshin shadow" in the middle where stalekr should be, but still aided by accolytes and then S#&$ gets real. or maybe thats too much lol.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Lisztomaniac

[INight00]

Yes, the true "end game". END. implying you've done everything else and so should understand what is happening.
Although, it may confuse players seeing corpus units helping stalker units as opposed to seeing them fight each other.... ....wait..
...what if two opposing faction bossed appeared? Lephantis and Sargus Ruk. They'll fight each other, meaning attacks will constantly be occurring while the player is there being caught in the mess.
Since its every 20 rounds, it damn well better be challenging. If anything, put a door in where the player can flee to. Once, then its locked.

I posted this some time ago, don't know if it was seen:
"...how about a mission where all the robotics are replaced with their boss fight counter-parts. So MOAs are replaced with Ambulus, the Ospreys replaced with Raptors, the Ratels replaced with Hyena packs/ Jackal/ Lynx."... Corpus crewmen can be replace with The Sergeant who needs a rework.

Acolytes/ Ghouls are event based enemies, so to see them spawn at some point in these towers can give some hope for a few players. ...or maybe they'll just complain about not being able to grind for maiming strike, which isn't the intention of this game mode.

Could fissures be implemented on the towers? Will allow for additional primes to be farmed alongside the floor rotations.

Also, for the tower - for anyone reading and not commenting, keep in mind, it wont be puzzle-like, button pressing and hacking in nature. Save that for the raids.
This is about the fight. The challenge.

[INight00]

On 1/3/2018 at 6:13 PM, Lisztomaniac said:

 

This idea...

Something about it says "New Dark Sectors" "Void Onslaught" on it.

Except they didn't take all of it into consideration.