Community Shaped Ideas For Stealth

[New003]

this is the end results of one of my earlier posts over stealth and gear ideas.

 

first a tactical ninja gear slot for tripwires caltrops and other traps along with grappling hooks for climbing, sneaking past baddies and laying in ambush has been generally successful in appealing to people and makes the well known motto "ninjas play free" more accurate i suggested to put this "tactical ninja gear slot in the sentry as it has room for a item slot under the sentries weapon  and would keep the gear in the sentry like a dispenser that follows you and can DIE adding worth to "revive" as it keeps the sentry alive longer

i thus propose that to use the gear you hold z to pull it out of the sentry and then release z after aiming to throw your caltrop on the ground or grappling hook at a ledge/rail and then use w to climb up s to go down a/d for walking left/right against the wall space to let go and be able to use secondary weapons this also could be used to add to the stealth experience.

finally the fact this would "add to stealth" means that we need  a stealth system so if a founder sees this please mention that we wish to have it.

 

however know that some want to have either the gear or sentry but not both at the same time for example these 2 posts:

1("I would love to have the option to bring a ninja "tool" or "gear" into a mission. Possible "tweak" or consideration would be to have the player have to choose between either a sentinel or a tool. Basically, the player has to choose between a passive utility or an active utility they need to activate".

 

"Does the player want to get around the level more easily (grappling hook, climbing gear) or do they want to have a second gun firing/more CC (Dethcube, Wyrm). This would gibe some more choices for the players to really play their own way".)

 

2("I actually don't mind this idea. Maybe if the tools are valuable enough could maybe slot them in instead of a sentinel. I wouldn't mind giving up dethcube for extra mobility or aoe cc".)

[Rawmelon789]

DE MAKE THE GRAPPLING HOOK NOW,TAKE MY MONEY.

[ReiganCross]

Ninja... You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means...

Edited August 7, 2013 by ReiganCross

[New003]

Trust me I know what it means I had a argument over wether the tenno are more ninja or samurai type warriors and that lead to a argument over what a ninja and a samurai is.

Edited August 7, 2013 by New003

[whitejackale]

Ninja... You keep using that word... I don't think it means what you think it means...

This. A lot of people continue to use ninja incorrectly when making suggestions, or when they defend the game's systems. People should get over the "ninjas play free" saying and actually make suggestions that will help to improve the game. (Not that I am saying that the original poster is making bad suggestions, I am just saying that we need to look past the saying, and actually focus on making the game better without limiting it to people's idea of what a ninja is.)

[PyroPaul]

Stealth is not as easy as you think...  it is an expensive and lengthy process to properly implement a stealth system that is viable and requires a drastic redesign of the in game logic for the AI, Map and NPC spawning, as well as a redesign of map layouts, pathing, and networking routes. 

 

and though i really don't want to go into length and say 'it isn't that simple...' i sort of have to because regardless, some one will doubt that statement or outright ignore it.

 

First-

Basic Stealth.

 

All stealth systems in games a derived from the Perception system seen in table top RPG's where you had to make a perception check to see if you where actually capable of seeing something.    This was eventually implemented into several stealth games via 'Awareness' and is represented in one form or another with an Awareness meter.     All enemies have an Awareness meter (0-100) and as they observe or hear things, their awareness raises, when they see/hear nothing the meter declines.   When different thresholds are met, they are entered into a different prioritized routine from investigating a noise, to starting to attack, to triggering an alarm. 

 

This game has next to none of that... That means everything i mentioned above must be coded in, tested, and implemented for just basic stealth to work.

 

Programming and implementation of an awareness meter, going through the game and associating Every Action Possible with an awareness value and range (you hear a gunshot further then you here a sword strike, and react differently to those then the sound of a guy sliding across the floor.), implementation of awareness thresholds,  Programming of AI to support such a meter in the form of adding things like Patrolling, Investigating, forgetting, and ignoring,  Attaching such AI to each and every unit in the game making tweaks and adjustments for each (does a Moa hear/react the same as a grineer grunt? does an roller or shield osprey require it?).

 

 

Next the game requires Map Viability.   As stealthy as you can be, you're not sneaking very well down these:

http://www.oliverfluck.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Hallway.jpg

http://fc03.deviantart.net/images/i/2003/40/0/a/castle_hallway.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2ch8aip.jpg

 

alternate routes are required... 'the path less traveled' so to speak.

 

Currently, the game uses a procedural map generation system where it pulls a handful of different tiles from set, and appends them together at the door ways to create unique 'never the same twice' maps.  This however, creates a problem in that Every tile attaches usually at a single bottle-neck door, and some tile assets are intentionally constricted and claustrophobic or provide only limited movement, such as catwalks and bridge ways. 

 

This means that you must go into every tile set and alter it to allow for more 'covert' options to be employed as well as Alter the spawn logic for the map so that it creates multi-path routes to an objective...   And this then raises even more problems, as Waypoint pathing may not always choose the stealthiest route which will create player confusion on exactly where they need to go.  and if there is one thing players hate, it is getting lost. 

 

 

And say they successfully do the following...

Then you have to consider balance in Warframes, in Weapons, and against enemies.  The Rhino is NOT as agile as the Excalibur, so if you have excensive wall walking routes, or long jumping areas... the Rhino ain't gunna be making it through those areas.  And the Hek is going to be no where near as useful as the Dread not only because of range but because of how much awareness each create.  And what of Infested? how do they react to all this?

 

 

And none of the following even takes into consideration Multiplayer.

 

if you're hanging from the ceiling, exactly where is that Nova player going to spawn in if they decide to join you? what are the repercussions for Not being stealthy?   What's to stop a Rhino player sporting Dual Bronco's from spawning in charging to the closest enemy and unloading a volley of bronco-y death into them?  Does the mission fail when he puts down some one not stealthily?    Would that be fun for Any one?

 

You Failed because you jumped into third person shooting game and Shot some one! How Dare you!

 

 

Lastly... What is the even reason to go Ninja?

 

Stealth Assassination games carry their difficulty from the fact that you are not a highly skilled warrior but rather a cunning rogue.  You are not using your Skill and physical prowess to overcome your foe, but your brain as to not engage them at all.

 

and this draws influence from surviving historical literature on 'Shinobi' and 'assassin' which often directed them to Flee when in the presence of one on one combat with a Samurai or Knight as they are in no way equal to the them when it comes to skill and capability in physical combat.

 

Why do i need to sneak when my Warframe and weapons can end their existence Right now? 

[New003]

to answer whitejackale i know that inproving the game is more important but so is pleasing the players whom supply the $$$ now yes the logo is just a stupid saying but people know it and thus they want to be able to be ninjas so i made this discussion to try to get stealth implemented into the game making "ninjas play free" correct and generally raising player "moral" if you will. Now i am not saying that we should have been ninjas from the start i am just saying that the game will be improved by adding stealth because the idea is in our heads and so we want it.

just look through the forums what do you see? lots of people who want stealth. giving it to them will please them greatly thus improving the game.

Its all a matter of psychology. 

[New003]

now my answer to PyroPaul and this is what my tenth reply to you and your posts? anyway as i said before you don't necessarily need a awareness bar there are many ways of doing stealth all you need is imagination and intuition your approach for example my post on how a grineer would spot you my previous example tweaked a bit:

if you are within 45 degrees of their frontal line of sight and move/make noise then you are spotted if outside of 45 degrees but within 85 degrees and make noise/move they will turn toward you and if you move/make noise with them turned toward you you are spotted as for noise:

crouch=silent up to 3 meters

walk=silent up to 20 meters 

run=silent up to 50 meters

reload=silent up to 30 meters

jump=silent up to 25 meters 

etc.

as for weapons noise when fired the distances can be chosen by the devs

numbers change for corpus and infested just plain would not have any stealth needed as they cant raise the alarm so go in and get em!

 

if hanging from ceiling the "nova" would appear at the closest point that is under no surveillance.

 

as for repercussions for not being stealthy...hows something like the enemy calling for reinforcements on a transmission to the closest space ships(plural as in # extra ships worth of baddies!) of the same faction sound(with chance of different faction coming and killing some of the original enemy) but if you destroy that equipment then go ahead and kill all you like (timer for how long it is to reinforcement arrival) or if on assassination/capture the target leaves ship thus making you fail the mission etc.

and that only applies to a stealth mission you still have defense and all you know.

and as for the warframes like rhino i have no idea but then its not up to me but the devs.

Edited August 7, 2013 by New003

[PhaZone]

I think PyroPaul his the nail on the head in regards to issues with the idea behind stealth. While I like the idea of it, the game isn't built for stealth. The only reason why in that old 8 minute dark sector trailer stealth was achieved for a moment was the fact that there was almost no enemies. All things considered if stealth was built in it would take almost as much effort to build the game as it would constructing that feature, simply because that would involve making a whole new game and attaching it on.

[PyroPaul]

now my answer to PyroPaul and this is what my tenth reply to you and your posts? anyway as i said before you don't necessarily need a awareness bar there are many ways of doing stealth all you need is imagination and intuition

 

 

Actually not

 

there is only one real way to ever do a stealth system.   And it is the same stealth system which was used in DnD tabletop.

 

Every successful stealth game from Thief to Dishonored to Hitman to Assassin Creed to the Elder Scrolls, all use the 'Awareness' system in one variation or another. but it always boils down to the most generic and straight forward programming-

 

certain actions Action = awareness points.

certain number of awareness points = NPC AI priority shifts

 

All the individual games do is add modifiers which dictate how much awareness certain actions create.    stand in the open = produce 10 awareness a second.  stand in shadow = produce 1 awareness a second.  

 

 

i can sit here and say with all honesty that you have no idea of basic game design, no grasp of in game functionality, and a very passing knowledge on game balance.    Provide countless tomes of information which tries and informs you and teach you of the flaws that your current perspective holds.   But with every single post i make, you seemingly ignore all of it and reply to a handful of quirks which completely misses the entire message of the post. 

 

 

so i'll say it like this.

 

If you want Stealth in this game:  Donate 6.5 Million Dollars to the company and wait 6 Months. 

That is how much it will cost and how long it will take. 

[ReiganCross]

Pyro, i'm your fan... You just grasped with perfection the reason that Warframe shall NEVER haver proper Stealth.

 

Please make a post with this so i can constantly reference it to DE.

Edited August 7, 2013 by ReiganCross