Reason's Why This Game Is Dying - The Icing Is Wearing Thin - How Can We Save Warframe

[pdxdubin]

Ever played Armored Core 4, Answer, and 5? Yeah... your rant reminded me of all of that... and yet I still played the entire game to the end... and earned stuff... and was satisfied I endured hell... Play the hard levels to get to where you want to go... Nothing wrong with that. Just about every game ever made has a level you play that you will HATE. Because if a game doesn't have a level like some of the things Dark Sector(Stalker, the 2nd Jackal drive, the cyber-tech suit elites, the train yard) Had... then the game becomes dull... with no punishing challenges...

 

Armored core.. the online version was a lot of fun.. Where the clans had their own bases that can be attacked..

 

That game was literally up in the top with one of my favorites. But also died out due to lack of content. 

 

The only game that has truly stuck with me is dark souls and demon souls.

 

I cant even describe how much I love that series.. It is so innovative and immerse.. and I may be arrogant to expect the same innovation out of warframe.

But who knows. 

[pdxdubin]

Normally when I see the term "this game is dying", I expect the OP to be a whiner with few actual legit points and the comments section to be filled with flames and fanboy-ism. After actually reading the thread as well as the comments, I'm surprised to see that this is all very organised and reasonable. Faith in the forums partially restored! :D

On a more serious note, pretty much all of your points are accurate. Right now DE is too focused on releasing new content in the form of weapons, tilesets and weekend events that give the impression they were frantically thrown together to appease the playerbase who is getting increasingly bored of the game. While I wouldn't say the game is "dying" YET so to speak, I've noticed that my clan has had signficantly less players online at a time compared to before (I'm Warlord of Lone Rangers, a 1000+ member clan), and I myself as well as a few of the other "hardcore" players of the game who has chalked up A LOT of playtime on the game are finding less and less motivation to play the game. As the OP has stated, while DE is busy pumping out new content in an attempt to keep the game fresh, the CORE of the game is what's extremely lacking, and yet is the most important part of a successful game.

Here's a rant I wrote in another thread about the stale core that is the cake of Warframe, which is also a pretty good thread btw:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/91280-welcome-to-defenseframe/

Right now Warframe is just going in a downward spiral into boredom. It's not just because Defense has become the be-all-end-all of Warframe. Right now almost all difficulty in this game is completely gear-based, long as you have enough time to waste on farming stuff to max mods or get the best gear almost any content is a cakewalk. And then all the hardcores go "I FORMAED MY POTATOED ACRID 8 TIMES! WHY IS GAME EASY??!! TOO EASY!!! MAKE HARDER!!!!", and DE just raises all the sodding planet levels and makes the game even harder, but only numerically, so that solo'ers and people without the LEET gear is locked out from more content, yet the game is still as much of a cakewalk as before for co-opers and hardcores with all the maxed gear. It's been said before that the game pre-U9 was perfectly balanced for solo play, which was why co-op felt too easy. If DE had listened to the right people, they would've known that introducing mission level scaling to player number would have been a much better option, as that would have made the game as accessible as before for solo'ers and non-hardcores, but wouldn't be a cakewalk for all the co-op players, who were essentially playing missions balanced for one player with 4 players and thus 4 times the firepower.

But wait, there's more! Powercreep is becoming an increasingly serious problem in the game. There has always been some gear that were clearly superior to others, and with the addition of the Prime weapons that's becoming even more clear. Why is powercreep bad? Just watch this:

And then there's the fact that a vast majority of the weapons are completely generic and uninteresting, with only a few exceptions such as the Glaive/Kestrel or the lab weapons.

Hell, the gameplay itself is still boring. Most of the enemies are still generic and uninteresting, either relying on sponginess or stunlock to present any kind of difficulty. Why does the Grineer Commander do nothing but switch teleport randomly instead of actually commanding their troops and raising their AI? Where's the Corpus elite snipers who can cloak and throw flashbangs? Where's the flying Infested units that toss thorns from afar?

And then there's the fact that the community keeps getting increasingly toxic and self-contradictive ever since the game got "big". Almost every time I look at the forum, most of the threads are "We're too powerful, give us BB guns instead" or "RUSHARS/DEFENS HEREOS RUININ MAH GAEMPLY EXPREINCE", or something about pvp or the microtransaction system. And then the flames begin in the replies section. Every time a good thread that has actually fresh and constructive suggestions or ones that point out major flaws in the game show up, it gets ignored and soon fades into oblivion, especially those that have wall-of-texts to explain their points in detail, because the average internet user has less attention span than a puppy. Just look at the whole "Nova is OP?" controversy right now. Every time someone suggests a tweak to Molecular Prime, if it doesn't involve insta-nuking an entire defense wave, everyone starts crying that that will ruin Nova and that all frames should have that same level of "press 4 to win" power instead. AND THEN these people complain that the game is too ez mode and the game should be more difficult.

I used to have a lot of hope for this game. I thought it had a ton of potential, and that with the proper nurturing, Warframe could be one of the best f2p shooters in history. Yet with almost every update, i find myself having less and less expectations for the future of Warframe. Look at Update 9, the "polishing" update. Yeah, what did they polish? Nothing but one boss fight and the UI. And the lore i guess. They even ruined the potential credit sink that would have been purchasable resources by making them plat-only instead. And of course after several updates, Nightmare Mode is STILL not a toggle-able option. I've had 450+ hours in this game, I've spent many hours writing concept threads about weapons/enemies/bosses, I've even drawn bloody fanart for the game, but nowadays I just can't find the motivation to play the game anymore. I hope DE can change that soon.

 

Well true, power creep will be turning into a factor soon.. But considering there is no pvp yet, I don't see it as a major problem right now.

When enemies are so easy to defeat, you could solo everything with a boltor.. 

 

However I am also the warlord of asuro and I would say 40-60% of player activity has died down.

Back when we had 2000 members, there were 400-500 people online almost all the time.

Now with 4000 members, there are hardly ever more then 200 people online.

What does that say about the game?

There is an expansive bell curve with player interest that I was going to make, where the initial game play excitement keeps you hooked.

 

Then you are at the end of all content and the game gets boring and you just quit.  Eventually losing the will to even go back to unlock new content because you figure out that there is no point.

 

And as you said, The faith in these forums are dim, and I often get flamed, but some times people will set a good foundation which leads to a positive and constructive discussion.

I am also relieved to see positive replies on here. 

[Rotaken]

Oh I am not organizing this very well.. ( someone will quote this )

I feel important while fulfilling your prophecy.

[omagawolf]

I feel important while fulfilling your prophecy.

//sassy remark saying how rude you are.

[pdxdubin]

I completely agree. I actually barely play the game apart from going online to activate and donate to rooms for my clan. There is no real end goal in Warframe, no carrot on the end of a inter galactic stick.

 

Games like World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2, etc all work because they have a massive world with characters and quests to explore. It keeps the player base going. The problem with Warframe is that instead of a massive, awesome and unique looking world we are been giving a tile set that gets old after a few goes.

 

The game lacks any form of a story and DE have shot themsevles in the foot by focusing so much on weapons and Warframes instead of doing story focused stuff.

 

The community events are nice but they are limited by simplicity. Most of the lore stuff is just assets been placed in cool positions and posed in a free frame. Sure it might take longer to make actual episode type animations but I think it would help push the community forwards through interest in the game's world.

 

Example:

 

You could have an episode where it starts with the Grineer having some form of a council meeting and bragging about how their location in inpenetrable but then have the Tenno drop in from a distant location where they have to fight to their targets.

 

The thing I am getting at here is that just using tilesets OVER AND OVER again isn't good enough. DE need to maybe make some focus levels with their tilesets and make the game itself challenging. Basically they should actually make levels themselves instead of just depending on the tile generator to cater to the fans. It is kind of lazy and offensive to the time we put into the game.

 

As it stands I am pretty much done with Warframe till something MASSIVE happens with the core content and story. Sure a free to play sci fi game is fun where you can control a space "ninja". But to be honest right now I would rather spend £40 on a retail game that can possibly give me 10x the enjoyment than Warframe does and I am actually paying for it.

 

Also give up with this BETA nonsense. It will be in BETA for eternity like PS Home because stuff is always been added to it. The game will never be a finished product. Stop letting words like that fool you into thinking you are playing an unfinished demo. Review sites have been given permission to review Warframe for months now because it isn't in the type of BETA you think it is. Stop living in denial.

 

episodes would be cool, But I would also be alright with seeing text based episodes, that are well done.

I think a story would be great, and there are a lot of ways to do it.

I saw my own post ( tenno tower )

 

And a bunch others.

Another Idea I saw was the ability to turn the alert system into a campaign, where you have to follow several "predesigned maps" of instanced stages.

 

And in order to do the next part of the alert you have to unlock that area of the map.

 

Basically the campaign would be put into progressive points into each planet that you have to unlock by completing the rest of the planet before hand.

And before you can move on to the next planet, you must defeat that "boss" or that part of the campaign, which then moves you to a new area.

[Turtleshellon]

I didn't read all of your post but I understand your viewpoint. I would suggest making a much shorter and to the point post. They do read these posts but I don't know if they are going to take the time to read one like this because it tales up too much time. I stopped about half-way and they might do the same so just something to think about. I would suggest breaking down your issues in different posts to focus more on each issue. Anyway, the reason there are so many problems with this game is because there are very few people working on it. There are like 2 people total that do level design. They do not have an army of people working on this game so progress is going to be slow but I believe progress will be made. They are constantly expanding ,growing, and changing things. I have only been playing a month and I have every Warframe except Trinity, Loki, and Saryn. Every void weapon and almost every mod other then some of the nightmare ones. I enjoy trying new frames for a new experience, but I would rather have a more in-depth experience with the frame I'm using. Everything is just too simple and basic to me with no learning curve at all. We have all these skills but really don't need them other then to hold hordes of enemies from hitting the pod... There needs to be more skill based play where you have to use certain skills vs certain types of enemies, attacks, environments, etc. Right now it's pretty much just shoot your gun and look at the pretty colors... 

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Well I don't really know what to think.

I don't imagine the game changing much after they magically put the word "release" on it.

 

and hopefully after that they don't just stop releasing content 

And this is the problem. Most people seem to think the game will just magically change once it hits "release" and based on their progress, so does DE.

[pdxdubin]

I feel important while fulfilling your prophecy.

 

No Its okay :3  lol 

[pdxdubin]

And this is the problem. Most people seem to think the game will just magically change once it hits "release" and based on their progress, so does DE.

 

Its pretty humorous if people actually think that ;3 

[pdxdubin]

I didn't read all of your post but I understand your viewpoint. I would suggest making a much shorter and to the point post. They do read these posts but I don't know if they are going to take the time to read one like this because it tales up too much time. I stopped about half-way and they might do the same so just something to think about. I would suggest breaking down your issues in different posts to focus more on each issue. Anyway, the reason there are so many problems with this game is because there are very few people working on it. There are like 2 people total that do level design. They do not have an army of people working on this game so progress is going to be slow but I believe progress will be made. They are constantly expanding ,growing, and changing things. I have only been playing a month and I have every Warframe except Trinity, Loki, and Saryn. Every void weapon and almost every mod other then some of the nightmare ones. I enjoy trying new frames for a new experience, but I would rather have a more in-depth experience with the frame I'm using. Everything is just too simple and basic to me with no learning curve at all. We have all these skills but really don't need them other then to hold hordes of enemies from hitting the pod... There needs to be more skill based play where you have to use certain skills vs certain types of enemies, attacks, environments, etc. Right now it's pretty much just shoot your gun and look at the pretty colors... 

 

Well there are more people then that.. 

 

Now honestly I could do a really to the point thread, but that's just not my style :P  

[hobolyra]

This game needs more depth to it if they expect it to survive into the long term.

[IIX_Vritrayan]

You and Hayden11121 made a good point. DE should address these problems about end game content and making the game less boring and not too repetitive.

Edited August 9, 2013 by PrismSeven

[pdxdubin]

You and Hayden11121 made a good point. DE should address these problems about end game content and making the game less boring and not too repetitive.

 

Well they already know about end game content.

I hate to say this but the person who is coming up with the ideas needs to come up with better ones..

Because nightmare mode is a joke..

Once again forcing us to go through repetitive boring ( and frustrating ) levels to earn nightmare specific mods.

 

Tell me one person that actually plays night mare mode for fun.

 

They don't, They just want to unlock the mods lol.  And that is not proper design.

Things need to be built up from a very deep level, which immerses players and comes out innovative and new.

[AprilFools]

This is exactly what my thoughts are about Warframe. Currently, mind you. I have optimistic hopes for the future of this game. It IS beta, after all.

[omagawolf]

Um...I do them for fun every now and then :x

Being without shields like the things you're fighting, not having you energy...call it fake difficulty but I like it

[pdxdubin]

Um...I do them for fun every now and then :x

Being without shields like the things you're fighting, not having you energy...call it fake difficulty but I like it

If I did a night mare mode.

I would make all the enemies look darker, maybe the entire map.

Give them red eyes.

Make them do 400% more damage, and make the rewards 3-4 times as good.

Also when you die in nightmare mode, you don't get to revive.

Things like that..

that would be challenging

Edited August 9, 2013 by pdxdubin

[Sinistro6]

A few healthy long term goals:

 

1. Missions need to have unique backgrounds.

 

Not a long story, just a background. Rescue mission? Who are you getting? Why is he(she) imprisoned? When did that happen? Why is it so important that I get him out alive?

 

Defense Missions are not popular because of fun, it's just that they happen to be the most efficient manner of farming bot rare mods and Affinity. Making missions more interesting lorewise and mechanicwise will add a lot to the game lifespan.

 

2. Nightmare is not endgame. 

 

This is a mistake that nearly killed Diablo 3. Endgame in PVE should be unique environment with unique enemies and unique bosses, all of that dropping unique loot.

 

Should it be hard? Yes, but UNIQUELY hard.

 

3. There should be a sense of progression

 

Individually, Mastery Rank is meaningless beyond serving as artificial barrier for gear. Making it more interesting may take people to look forward to increasing it.

 

On the multiplayer side, PVE competition revolves around progression. How far have a clan gone in a set dungeon? Endgame missions should take this into consideration.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Sinistro6

[pdxdubin]

A few healthy long term goals:

 

1. Missions need to have unique backgrounds.

 

Not a long story, just a background. Rescue mission? Who are you getting? Why is he(she) imprisoned? When did that happen? Why is it so important that I get him out alive?

 

Defense Missions are not popular because of fun, it's just that they happen to be the most efficient manner of farming bot rare mods and Affinity. Making missions more interesting lorewise and mechanicwise will add a lot to the game lifespan.

 

2. Nightmare is not endgame. 

 

This is a mistake that nearly killed Diablo 3. Endgame in PVE should be unique environment with unique enemies and unique bosses, all of that dropping unique loot.

 

Should it be hard? Yes, but UNIQUELY hard.

 

3. There should be a sense of progression

 

Individually, Mastery Rank is meaningless beyond serving as artificial barrier for gear. Making it more interesting may take people to look forward to increasing it.

 

On the multiplayer side, PVE competition revolves around progression. How far have a clan gone in a set dungeon? Endgame missions should take this into consideration.

 

Exactly 

 

I actually think changing raids to pre made challenging levels, with the addition of scripted events. 

Would be pretty cool 

[notlamprey]

Read it. Liked it.

I made a thread about the importance of perception in situations like this, and tried to use the RNG situation as an example. Unfortunately, it was probably posted in the wrong section and devolved into an off-topic argument.

I feel your feels. I think DE was making an honest attempt to solve this kind of communication problem when they implemented the Design Council. Unfortunately, there were bound to be some problems with the way it was executed. I can also understand how they might feel burned by a lot of the feedback they're getting from people.

Ignorance is the meanest thing in the Universe.

I fear that this game has gone too far in the direction of a Zynga-style Skinner Box, and it went there so quickly that a lot of people are feeling confused and betrayed. DE has been putting emphasis on new content. Part of their reason for doing that is the nature of their industry. The 24/7 News Cycle is ruthless, and they have a deal with Sony now. The average length of time a person works in video game development is about 5 years, and there's a good reason for that.

All that aside, there is a series of decision points in developing a game like this. DE is under a lot of pressure to choose MOAR CONTENT over Precision Engineering. Eventually, this trend will turn Warframe into a game that cannot support the same player base that it first drew.

Sadly, I've had to put my Stop-Loss Orders in on this game for the time being. I can't keep making investments, monetary or emotional, when I don't trust the overall direction. Maybe more information would change my mind, but I don't have more information. I'm still playing, but only in small sessions when I know my effort will translate well into reward (Potato/Forma alerts, for example).

I don't want that to be the experience I take away from Warframe. I don't want to look at this game like an awesome girlfriend who went to college out-of-state and we tried to make it work but it didn't because let's face it, long-distance relationships hardly ever work and we just slowly drifted apart talking less and less often until one day the texts just didn't come anymore and OH GOD I PROMISED I WOULDN'T CRY

[pdxdubin]

Read it. Liked it.

I made a thread about the importance of perception in situations like this, and tried to use the RNG situation as an example. Unfortunately, it was probably posted in the wrong section and devolved into an off-topic argument.

I feel your feels. I think DE was making an honest attempt to solve this kind of communication problem when they implemented the Design Council. Unfortunately, there were bound to be some problems with the way it was executed. I can also understand how they might feel burned by a lot of the feedback they're getting from people.

Ignorance is the meanest thing in the Universe.

I fear that this game has gone too far in the direction of a Zynga-style Skinner Box, and it went there so quickly that a lot of people are feeling confused and betrayed. DE has been putting emphasis on new content. Part of their reason for doing that is the nature of their industry. The 24/7 News Cycle is ruthless, and they have a deal with Sony now. The average length of time a person works in video game development is about 5 years, and there's a good reason for that.

All that aside, there is a series of decision points in developing a game like this. DE is under a lot of pressure to choose MOAR CONTENT over Precision Engineering. Eventually, this trend will turn Warframe into a game that cannot support the same player base that it first drew.

Sadly, I've had to put my Stop-Loss Orders in on this game for the time being. I can't keep making investments, monetary or emotional, when I don't trust the overall direction. Maybe more information would change my mind, but I don't have more information. I'm still playing, but only in small sessions when I know my effort will translate well into reward (Potato/Forma alerts, for example).

I don't want that to be the experience I take away from Warframe. I don't want to look at this game like an awesome girlfriend who went to college out-of-state and we tried to make it work but it didn't because let's face it, long-distance relationships hardly ever work and we just slowly drifted apart talking less and less often until one day the texts just didn't come anymore and OH GOD I PROMISED I WOULDN'T CRY

 

The issue here

 

the precision engineering might not happen, because DE is making money off the crap content updates, and the rush to buy them.

 

I would really like DE to take a step back and actually work on the parts of the game that don't initially make them money.

 

it is a mistake caused by not greed, but the idea of the game working as intended.

 

But the thing is DE may not know that these content updates are going to get old quick.

 

Another thing, is that when the game hits release.

The players are going to have all of this "S#&$" already available 

Well there are a lot of factors about new players coming into the game, and having to work through all this content.

Its going to turn off a lot of people, and a lot of mistakes are being made I think.

Although I'm not a game developer, I can only hope for the best here.

[notlamprey]

the precision engineering might not happen, because DE is making money off the crap content updates, and the rush to buy them.

My gut tells me that this is true, and I hate it.

It feels like this game is stuck in an ugly loop of pumping out content to generate revenue, which is then spent on pumping out yet more content. (I don't know how true this is, only that it FEELS like this is the case)

If DE is hoping to pump out all its planned content and THEN start the serious polishing, it will not end well for any of us.

[ThePresident777]

Needs more game, more different stuff to do, and a way to sort it all out.

[Heroicleopard]

HIGH LEVEL END GAME CONTENT

 

 

 

Does this refer to end lore? Please explain.

[Heroicleopard]

Does this refer to end lore? Please explain.

 

And if they added "End game content" where would they get their profit from after the players have experienced the "End game content"

 

 

IMO "End game content" on a F2P game is a horrible idea and can kill revenue.

[pdxdubin]

Does this refer to end lore? Please explain.

 

No not at all

 

End game content means things that we can do over and over ( other then xini ) 

 

To keep us interested.

End game is a big factor in all mmo's

 

But warframe, it is very easy to finish all the content quickly.

 

I have a few ideas on how to counter this, very simple ones that coexist with the mastery system, ( the core system ) as you can read in my OP

 

But end game means, Dungeons, arcade mode, pvp, survival, Better defence missions, 

 

Maybe a way to build dungeons, build maps, build pvp maps, build stuff.

Parkour races, where you have to race across the map

 

A bidding system to wage your credits on stuff 

 

Market place ( within clans ) 

 

trading 

 

more mods

 

more items other then weapons

 

Knick knacks 

 

A LOT of cosmetic items to collect

 

by a lot

 

I mean 100-200 Cosmetic items, Capes, wings, glasses, shoulders, pauldrons, scarfes, dangly bits, followers, pets.

Same way the sentinels work.

 

But ALL the cosmetic items need to be REWARDS and they CANNOT be bought on the market place.

 

Some can, but there need's to be 100 or so challenging " challenges" that we can do to earn cosmetic items / buffs / mods

 

That will give people who like collecting stuff a reason to play

 

as well as open end pvp where you have no idea where you will duel with, kinda like in two worlds two.

 

Dark souls boss fights and enemy complexity needs to be considered, 

GIANT boss fights with tons of loot.

 

The problem here is that there is not much of loot to drop because most people already own everything.

DE needs to fix stuff

 

And they need to take a break from the generic content updates and work on the stuff we actually care about 

 

I really don't know

 

there is so much that could be done.