Drop Respawn; Bad Encouragement

[G3rman]

Currently, in order to save players who fall into the many neverending pits in the game, they will be respawned at the nearest solid ground part of the level (lack of better term). This encourages bad player behavior, however, and can lead players to entirely skip obstacles by respawning themselves past them.

Take a Corpus ship, for example. There is a certain room which has a skinny pathway in the middle that leads you to take a left or a right to reach an elevator on either side. Most often, there are enemies guarding this area, or the player just doesn't want to wait for the elevator.

They jump down into the abyss toward the bottom level where they need to go and the game will respawn them on that platform, negating the need to go to the elevator in the first place.

How to handle this? Change where the game spawns the player or work out some sort of punishment for this saving grace. It wouldn't be great for the few who genuinely fall, but it would cut down on the abuse of the environment and perhaps make the entire player base more careful.

Thoughts?

Edited February 6, 2013 by G3rman

[Zythi]

Potentially workable, though personally I'd prefer that the game just marks your last location if you're in the air for an extended period of time and just drops you at that mark if you "fall in a pit". Punishments for what can easily just be mistakes are probably not the best way to handle it. Especially given that new players would bear the brunt of this as they aren't used to how mobility works in this game. It would also frustrate clumsy players (I know I've tripped in to some of those floor level holes before) and might not be good for player retention, pending how painful the punishment was.

[Indiscipline]

Potentially workable, though personally I'd prefer that the game just marks your last location if you're in the air for an extended period of time and just drops you at that mark if you "fall in a pit". Punishments for what can easily just be mistakes are probably not the best way to handle it. Especially given that new players would bear the brunt of this as they aren't used to how mobility works in this game. It would also frustrate clumsy players (I know I've tripped in to some of those floor level holes before) and might not be good for player retention, pending how painful the punishment was.

That is hard to work out because of the way things work. First you need a marker > then check for time in the air > then return you to it. But the game has no idea when you might be in the air for long enough so it would need to mark your position at all times and it would need to check if you are in the air at all times. Which is not efficient.

Solution to the OP could be to manually add spawning points for each room with pitfalls, but in the grand scheme of things i dont think they care enough about skipping a few mobs to waste time on that.

[PsychoGunner]

I must say that I don't mind this exploit being used at all. It's not harming anyone, and you're free to kill whatever lies between the pathways. Also, there's now a way to simply wall-run across, and I can't help but feel that this was an intentional alternative to that in some form or another. Hardly an issue, in my opinion.

Edited February 6, 2013 by PsychoGunner

[Zythi]

That is hard to work out because of the way things work. First you need a marker > then check for time in the air > then return you to it. But the game has no idea when you might be in the air for long enough so it would need to mark your position at all times and it would need to check if you are in the air at all times. Which is not efficient.

Solution to the OP could be to manually add spawning points for each room with pitfalls, but in the grand scheme of things i dont think they care enough about skipping a few mobs to waste time on that.

Most MMO's actually do mark your location when you jump. If you've seen the infamous "frogger" from Naxxrammas in World of Warcraft, it was how a lot of people died. It marked your location when you jumped and you were treated as still being in that location while you were in the air. The game wouldn't update your position until you landed. That of course requires server side position data and I guess this game keeps that client side though.

[DetergentPod]

I don't see how this is a problem. It's basically just a shortcut that people use to rush missions. In doing so they won't be getting Potential mods or components that might drop. So it's fair. Beside there are many times when I get knock into those pits by shockwave cause by those Mao or Bosses. So this should just be left the way it is. I mean what harm can it do that affects the gameplay in an unfair way?

[G3rman]

I must say that I don't mind this exploit being used at all. It's not harming anyone, and you're free to kill whatever lies between the pathways. Also, there's now a way to simply wall-run across, and I can't help but feel that this was an intentional alternative to that in some form or another. Hardly an issue, in my opinion.

It is a direct exploitation of a game feature used to bypass obstacles, it is a major concern. You are encouraging players to be lazy and search for similar exploits, a slippery slope argument I don't like but is worth mentioning.

As a dev, you don't want people skipping content.

Edited February 7, 2013 by G3rman

[CigWF]

It is a direct exploitation of a game feature used to bypass obstacles, it is a major concern.

A major concern, that does not effect you, in the least, if someone does such. This is not a competitive game, where such an issue would be giving a player an unfair advantage, or allowing them to raise in some sort of rank. It is, merely, a means to bypass some enemies, or to speed up a specific room.(Which you can do, just as easily, now that wall running, has been added.)

While I agree that some point, in the distant future, it might be adjusted, so that it is no longer putting you somewhere other than the place you jumped into the pit from, I don't see how this is a large enough issue to be dealt with now.

[G3rman]

A major concern, that does not effect you, in the least, if someone does such. This is not a competitive game, where such an issue would be giving a player an unfair advantage, or allowing them to raise in some sort of rank. It is, merely, a means to bypass some enemies, or to speed up a specific room.(Which you can do, just as easily, now that wall running, has been added.)

While I agree that some point, in the distant future, it might be adjusted, so that it is no longer putting you somewhere other than the place you jumped into the pit from, I don't see how this is a large enough issue to be dealt with now.

Better to report it now and bring it to their attention regardless if its a small problem or not. I will use my slippery slope argument and stand by it, even if it isn't very good. As the title says, this is encouraging bad player behavior, lazy even. You want innovative design, not manipulative.

Seeing players find cool ways to use their abilities to bypass the elevator is great! Throw a decoy down on the lower floor and switch teleport to it as Loki.

Seeing them manipulate a feature that protects them from dying is not so great..its unintended design, which isn't always bad, but because it is used to deliberately skip content its not good for the devs.

[comeonandslam]

I agree. It just feels like a bug the way it is now. Not that complicated to fix though; just teleport players to the last place they touched the ground instead of the closest.

[Nept]

Better to report it now and bring it to their attention regardless if its a small problem or not. I will use my slippery slope argument and stand by it, even if it isn't very good. As the title says, this is encouraging bad player behavior, lazy even. You want innovative design, not manipulative.

I disagree with the notion that these not-so-dangerous pits encourage poor players behaviour. I'd say quite the opposite, really.

Warframe has a wealth of maneuverability options which, unfortunately, don't see as much use as they should. Not punishing players for falling encourages experimentation; "exploits" can result, yes, but so can interesting movement sequences. That's fun. And players want to have fun.

Of course, if you penalized people for falling, few would attempt such maneuvers. That's not fun. And players don't want to not have fun.

Perhaps if there were incentives (say rooms with resources, reacheable only through advanced movement options), punishment would be appropriate. Then people would continue to push the game's bounderies.

Not until that point, though.

[G3rman]

I disagree with the notion that these not-so-dangerous pits encourage poor players behaviour. I'd say quite the opposite, really.

Warframe has a wealth of maneuverability options which, unfortunately, don't see as much use as they should. Not punishing players for falling encourages experimentation; "exploits" can result, yes, but so can interesting movement sequences. That's fun. And players want to have fun.

Of course, if you penalized people for falling, few would attempt such maneuvers. That's not fun. And players don't want to not have fun.

Perhaps if there were incentives (say rooms with resources, reacheable only through advanced movement options), punishment would be appropriate. Then people would continue to push the game's bounderies.

Not until that point, though.

You are in the wrong here, calling this system that has nothing to do with 'maneuverability' a part of traversing the level. It is designed to help players recover from certain death or getting stuck, not to be manipulated like this.

Like I said, using in-game abilities to find new places is great. Manipulating a system like this is not great.

Players are not pulling off movement sequences here, they are leaping off the edge and cheating their way across. They are taking a shortcut that should not exist because of bad design.

They can push the boundaries, but they need to know when to stop and, failing that, the boundaries need to push back. This is one of those cases.

[Nept]

You misunderstand my point. Here it is, again.

I disagree with the notion that these not-so-dangerous pits encourage poor players behaviour. I'd say quite the opposite' date=' really.

Warframe has a wealth of maneuverability options which, unfortunately, don't see as much use as they should. Not punishing players for falling encourages experimentation; "exploits" can result, yes, but so can interesting movement sequences. That's fun. And players want to have fun.[/quote']

And here's further explanation: some players will use this system to exploit. However, most players will find that this system offers them the forgiveness to experiment. Until the game offers incentives to explore the movement system, this freedom to experiment is the best approach - even if the occasional veteran exploits it.

*Edit* Because I have a feeling you'll require even further explanation: I am not referring to the no-penalty falls as a maneuverability system. I am saying that its implementation allows for greater experimentation, which thereby increases maneuverability potential for most players.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Nept

[G3rman]

I'm not saying eliminate the respawn system because its an important mechanic, I am saying change it in order to prevent abuse. Punishment was an extreme suggestion, and some of the other posters here have come up with better ideas that expand on my original premise; return the player to the spot he was in before jumping or at least to the same general elevation level.