Feedback on Boss Farming

[DrAsmus]

After solo farming both the Ash and Rhino warframes over the past few days I have been doing an inordinate amount of play on the bosses required to build a new warframe with blueprints and wanted to give some feedback to the dev team on the experience of around 100 solo boss kills. I also wanted to go over their abilities and locations for people who may not be familiar with the ins and outs of killing these big baddies.

For my reviews, I'll list the boss name, whether it is soloable, killable by exploit, or group-only and give a description of abilities and tactics used by the boss and player to defeat it.

Captain Vor

Soloable: Yes

My Difficulty Rating: 1

Planet: Mercury

Level: Tolstoj

Faction: Grineer

Drops: Cronus, Morphics

Abilities: None

He's the first boss, so if you play correctly with regular tactics and weapons he is no problem.

General Sargas Ruk

Soloable: Level 15

My Difficulty Rating: 4

Planet: Saturn

Level: Tethys

Faction: Grineer

Drops: Ember Systems, Ember Helmet, Ember Chassis, Orokin Cell

Abilities: Gorgon weapon, Ground Slam, Bullet Magnet

Despite being only level 11 this guy can pose a significant challenge to ranged players. His shield has a slightly longer delay than later bosses to recharge but is still nearly instant, though weak. Traditional jump stomp knockdown melee tactics work the best against him due to his gorgon requiring spin up time. Bait out his ground slam knockdown ability before you jump in with a knockdown of your own. I managed to avoid flying elbows while up in his grill, but he will still occasionally shoot you in the face point blank with the Gorgon when he isn't knocked down. He will also periodically use Mag's Bullet Magnet on you, so take cover and wait for it to run out before you charge him down. Use hit and run attacks on him until your shield is critical and back off to recharge. Rinse, repeat until he is dead.

The Jackal

Soloable: Level 18

My Difficulty Rating: 4

Planet: Fossa

Level: Venus

Faction: Corpus

Drops: Rhino Systems, Rhino Helmet, Rhino Chassis, Alloy Plate

Abilities: Permanent Shield, Nuclear Plasma Grenade Launcher, Shockwave(0 dmg), Spawns Mine Ospreys

This fight is quite tough and has somewhat of a learning curve. I learned very quickly to run like hell every time I heard the loud "THUNK" sound of his grenade launcher going off. I don't know how much damage it does because it has instantly killed me every time I got hit, even at the maximum radius of the explosion. To defeat the Jackal you must shoot down one of its legs leaving it vulnerable and taking off the permanent shield. You can get into melee with this boss as long as you have the timing down for jumping the constant shockwaves. Two rails on the ceiling will periodically drop storage containers that have ammo and energy for when you drop his shields. He has high health but if you can dodge the nuke grenades the fight goes off without a hitch using the proper level and gear.

Golem

Soloable: Level 25

My Difficulty Rating: 5

Planet: Jupiter

Level: Themisto

Faction: Infested

Drops: Volt Chassis, Volt Helmet, Volt Systems, Dark Dagger, Ceramic Dagger, Neural Sensors

Abilities: Disruptor Punch, Poison Grenades

The Golem is a large high health disruptor enemy that spams poison grenades on you that are hard to dodge. You can knock him down and he doesn't have a poison cloud around him so melee is your best bet. Staying at range and blasting him down with a Gorgon or something would work fine too, but you will get hit by poison grenades if you don't close melee on him at some point. Fire element damage will be your best friend against this enemy, and bring along a rifle ammo box and some health restores, just in case. Overall not too tough a boss if you clear the room first and don't take too many poison nades, but he will take a while to get down. No shields.

Tyl Regar

Soloable: Exploit

My Difficulty Rating: 8

Planet: Uranus

Level: Titania

Faction: Grineer

Drops: Ash Helmet, Ash Systems, Ash Chassis, Gallium

Abilities: Sword Charge(300dmg), Shockwave Grenade

Boss of Uranus, this guy is a bona fide bad &#!. His melee does around 150dmg per swing, he's very fast, has high health and an instant recharge shield that has the lowest value of the instant shields but still isn't too shabby. Under normal circumstances you likely won't be able to solo this boss until you're knee deep in Pluto missions with max everything due to his very nasty melee swings that chunk shields, in combination with spamming knockdown grenades it is very highly likely he will kill you on the ground. Instead, lure him to the bottom of his platform, where there is a protruding pipe that is next to a light. In this little area and he will get stuck attempting to run at you, giving you the opportunity to put all 500 rifle bullets into his head. I like to finish him with style and throw in some Radial Javelin action.

Hyena

Soloable: Exploit

My Difficulty Rating: 9

Planet: Neptune

Level: Psamathe

Faction: Corpus

Drops: Rhino Systems, Rhino Helmet, Rhino Chassis, Control Module

Abilities: 2x Homing Rocket(250dmg), Chain Gun, Shockwave, Shockwave Grenades, Energy Barrier

Here's where we get into the over 9000 epic broken zone. This was the last boss I have been able to solo and only with very great difficulty. The real problem with the Hyena, as you will immediately find out, is that he has a $&*&*#(%& shield value. I estimate around 1000. This is further a problem because it is an instant recharge shield as well. Only certain weapons will be able to even dent this monster and that is just the beginning. I suggest a high fire rate, high capacity freeze modded weapon and lots of ammo boxes. Low fire rate weapons even if they have a very high damage value are completely worthless against the Hyena because the shield recharges your damage before the next bullet lands. Do not use Lex, Snipetron, Bolto, or any other weapon with a low clip size or low fire rate.

You cannot close melee as a solo player on the Hyena because it spams shockwave just like Jackal and additionally has grenades that do knockback as well. The homing rockets come out when you attempt to get too far away from the boss and will one shot anyone with less than 250 shields. His chain gun does massive damage with perfect accuracy and you cannot take hits from it like you can with the Jackal, take cover immediately. And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse than being repeatedly floored and trying to dodge 1 shotter rockets, when the boss hits 50% he starts throwing up a frontal Energy Barrier that he can shoot through, but you cannot.

The only successful tactic that I have found is to find some high ground. By this I mean boxes or other stacked objects that give you cover while allowing you to shoot the boss. The place I used was directly outside the room where you find Hyena, there is a raised ledge with some barrels that is perfectly suited for this tactic. If you can get him to stand still, you can drop the shield and get some damage in while being in cover. The main issue with this tactic is finding an area that protects you from his shockwave grenades, otherwise he will simply knock you out of cover without a second thought and ruin your day.

This boss needs some serious balancing. At the very least there needs to be a 0.5-1.0 second delay before boss shields recharge or most weapons in the game will be utterly useless. The shield value could be halved as it is extremely high, only the pluto boss has a higher shield value. The rockets are horrendous for green players to deal with, I remember fighting the boss around his level and getting one shot as soon as he saw me, their damage needs to be halved or quartered as well. I also recommend removing the shockwave ability from this boss since he already has three other abilities and the highest damage chain gun attack in the game, and adds another layer of impossibility since you simply can't close melee effectively.

Councilor Vay Hek

Soloable: Group-Only

My Difficulty Rating: Over 9000

Planet: Earth

Level: Everest

Faction: Grineer

Drops: Trinity Helmet, Trinity Chassis, Trinity Systems, Neurodes

Abilities: Hek Shotgun, Plasma Grenade, Doppelgangers

If you thought the Hyena ruined your day... Welcome to pain. I have never been able to solo kill this boss, which is a shame since I want to play the Trinity warframe :( True to his namesake he carries a Hek shotgun that never needs a reload. When you approach him there will be anywhere from one to four low health low shield doppelgangers named Vay Hek with random weapons that throw plasma grenades and are there just to confuse you. They go down easy. Vay Hek does not. Continuing the trend of massive instantly recharging shields Hek's value is somewhere in the 500-900 range. He also has an enormous health pool and is immune to stagger and all elemental status effects, but not knockdown.

The issue here is that while attempting to drop his awesome shields he will be plastering you with shotgun blasts that deal 136 damage at point blank range. While being immune to status effects he will also run for cover as soon as the shields drop requiring that you knock him down as soon as he attempts to do so. The only successful reported tactic is to fully max out a Gorgon and drop his &#! from extreme range where his shotgun can't effectively damage your shields. This will most likely require multiple ammo boxes. Good luck.

Like the Hyena, the most pressing issue with this boss is the fact that you will most likely waste all your bullets before you can even damage the boss due to the epic shielding he has coupled with his immunity to status effects. Once his shields are down it is a cakewalk but you probably won't even get there before he Heks your face off. Reducing the shield value by half and add a 1 second delay before recharge would go a long way towards balance.

As a last comment on boss balance, the major issues that cause the bosses to be unkillable solo are not due to boss mechanics, bugs, or player tactics. The most needed changes are simply values that are far too high and need to be tweaked. Overall the boss fights are very entertaining, require lots and lots of skill, and are very well made.

The largest outstanding issues are the rate at which bosses use their abilities(currently they spam everything ad nauseum) and the shield delay and strength values. Adjusting these things would go a very long way to making boss fights accessable to both groups and solo players and alleviating the requirement on some warframe blueprints of needing a party.

Thanks for reading! Feel free to comment and discuss.

Edited February 7, 2013 by DrAsmus

[Zythi]

I was under the impression bosses were supposed to be group content. I'm pretty sure that's why they're so strong and have really quick regenerating shields. They're supposed to be under fire from multiple players at once and to have difficulty getting out of the hail of bullets because of the number of barrels aimed at them.

I think the fact that you can solo them is supposed to only be doable with over-geared weps, so I don't know that Vay Hek, Jackal, or any of the bosses need to be "balanced" around being soloable.

Edit: Especially given that the only bosses that gate the way to extra content are the joke easy mode solo ones. All the hard bosses are end nodes with nothing after them.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Zythi

[G3rman]

I was under the impression bosses were supposed to be group content. I'm pretty sure that's why they're so strong and have really quick regenerating shields. They're supposed to be under fire from multiple players at once and to have difficulty getting out of the hail of bullets because of the number of barrels aimed at them.

I think the fact that you can solo them is supposed to only be doable with over-geared weps, so I don't know that Vay Hek, Jackal, or any of the bosses need to be "balanced" around being soloable.

Edit: Especially given that the only bosses that gate the way to extra content are the joke easy mode solo ones. All the hard bosses are end nodes with nothing after them.

Bosses feel weaker when you solo.

[DeepbloodEclipse]

Sgt, Nef Anyo

Soloable: Lv. 18

My difficulty rating: 2 (only because he can cloak, otherwise 1)

Planet: Mars

Level: War

Faction: Corpus

Drops: Gallium, Mag Chassis, Mag Helm, Mag Systems

Abilities: Invisibility Cloak, Snipetron

He is pretty easy and predictable, when he cloaks, find good cover so he can't snipe you, and then two shots in the head with a good rifle that has armor piercing mod and he drops like a fly, I personally used a Latron and 14.1% armor piercing mod(any armor piercing mod works, even 1%)

[Zythi]

Bosses feel weaker when you solo.

I have not noticed that. Attempting to solo any boss other than Jackal, the one sniper Corpus, Vor and Sargas has ended in a lot of pain. While fighting them with a group tends to be a complete joke where no one dies and the boss gets trashed. Actually, of all my Councilor groups, I think I've seen someone die.... once? He also seems to do the same damage to me with his shotty regardless of being in a group or not.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Zythi

[Nept]

I've not had too many issues with Hek. Could be down to Loki's survivability, though.

[DrAsmus]

I was under the impression bosses were supposed to be group content. I'm pretty sure that's why they're so strong and have really quick regenerating shields. They're supposed to be under fire from multiple players at once and to have difficulty getting out of the hail of bullets because of the number of barrels aimed at them.

I think the fact that you can solo them is supposed to only be doable with over-geared weps, so I don't know that Vay Hek, Jackal, or any of the bosses need to be "balanced" around being soloable.

Edit: Especially given that the only bosses that gate the way to extra content are the joke easy mode solo ones. All the hard bosses are end nodes with nothing after them.

Your impression is incorrect. There is a giant difference in boss difficulty between Vay Hek, Hyena, Tyl Regor and the other bosses. These three are huge badasses because their shields are unique in that they have no delay and instantly recharge the moment the boss stops taking damage. Even the Ambulas from pluto is not really an issue as long as you have max gear because his shield has a long delay time before recharge and is weak in comparison to the three mentioned above.

While fighting the Hyena I expended 1000 rounds and then had to leave the area to scavenge for more bullets just to be able to kill him because the shields are so epic. It shouldn't take an entire clip and then some just to damage the boss's health, only to have the shield recharge fully in the time you are knocked down from shockwave.

There is a drastic difference in the difficulty level of certain bosses vs. others that centers around their insane shield recharge rate, delay, and value numbers.

I've not had too many issues with Hek. Could be down to Loki's survivability, though.

Loki's kit is also unique in that he has a window of opportunity while he is stealthed to damage a boss's health that other classes don't have. Because of this he is easily the best boss killing warframe besides Rhino. I use Excalibur and if you can't close melee on an enemy, and you also can't drop their shields to Radial Javelin them, you're fuckin' screwed.

Edited February 7, 2013 by DrAsmus

[Nept]

I'd suggest stocking up on rifle rounds (inventory items) before solo boss battles. Makes things much more manageable.

[Indiscipline]

This list is quite subjective. First of all you need to list what frame and weapons are you using. For example the Vay Hek Soloable: Group Only notion is false. I soloed every boss in the game with Loki at natural progression points without too much trouble using Strun/Lex and then Gorgon/Lex at rank 2 (luckily i got it before the rank change).

WIth that said, Loki is the best solo warframe in the game and especially at boss killing. At least in my opinion. Dont take this the wrong way, i am not trying to brag. I believe every Loki player soloed every boss with relative ease. Because the difficulty is relative to current warframe balance its important to write what warframe and weapon combo you used as it will paint a more accurate picture of your list.

[Yurt]

Have soloed all the bosses with my rhino. The only one that ever gave me a little trouble was the one who uses mag's bullet magnetizer ability, it always used to catch me off guard.

Having said this I wish they introduced a boss that would be very challenging for 4 fully twinked out players to defeat and not just abullet sponge either, let's have us some difficulty, eh?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Yurt

[Zythi]

Your impression is incorrect. There is a giant difference in boss difficulty between Vay Hek, Hyena, Tyl Regor and the other bosses. These three are huge badasses because their shields are unique in that they have no delay and instantly recharge the moment the boss stops taking damage. Even the Ambulas from pluto is not really an issue as long as you have max gear because his shield has a long delay time before recharge and is weak in comparison to the three mentioned above.

While fighting the Hyena I expended 1000 rounds and then had to leave the area to scavenge for more bullets just to be able to kill him because the shields are so epic. It shouldn't take an entire clip and then some just to damage the boss's health, only to have the shield recharge fully in the time you are knocked down from shockwave.

There is a drastic difference in the difficulty level of certain bosses vs. others that centers around their insane shield recharge rate, delay, and value numbers.

A large jump in strength is not indicative of a balancing problem, and has nothing to do with the notion of a boss being soloable or not. Eris Defense missions are harder than Jupiter ones. Does that mean they aren't balanced?

I would say Ambulas being weaker than the three previous bosses is an indication that he is undertuned, not that the others are overtuned. I'm not 100% certain where the notion that all the bosses need to be soloable comes from. Having content that requires groups (or niche strategies) is healthy.

With that said, however. I do think more bosses should use the Jackal methedology of dropping energy and ammo inside the room through a renewable source. I'm not convinced the difficulty of the bosses is a problem, but I can understand and agree that you shouldn't be ammo limited while fighting a boss. You should die because the boss beats you to death, not because you ran out of ammo and had to punch him.

[DrAsmus]

This list is quite subjective. First of all you need to list what frame and weapons are you using. For example the Vay Hek Soloable: Group Only notion is false. I soloed every boss in the game with Loki at natural progression points without too much trouble using Strun/Lex and then Gorgon/Lex at rank 2 (luckily i got it before the rank change).

WIth that said, Loki is the best solo warframe in the game and especially at boss killing. At least in my opinion. Dont take this the wrong way, i am not trying to brag. I believe every Loki player soloed every boss with relative ease. Because the difficulty is relative to current warframe balance its important to write what warframe and weapon combo you used as it will paint a more accurate picture of your list.

Have soloed all the bosses with my rhino. The only one that ever gave me a little trouble was the one who uses mag's bullet magnetizer ability, it always used to catch me off guard.

Having said this I wish they introduced a boss that would be very challenging for 4 fully twinked out players to defeat and not just abullet sponge either, let's have us some difficulty, eh?

You two are funny. One of you is completely maxed out and the other is playing Loki, which as we mentioned earlier is the only warframe that can handle the harder bosses due to stealth and survivability. Don't ask for more challenging things just because you have maxed your character. That's like people whining and crying about nerf MP10 in D3 because they put 1000 hours into it and beat the game.

Should I put "Loki Only" on Vay Hek for you?

Thanks tho Indiscipline I will add his bullet magnet to General Sargus Ruk I forgot about that.

A large jump in strength is not indicative of a balancing problem, and has nothing to do with the notion of a boss being soloable or not. Eris Defense missions are harder than Jupiter ones. Does that mean they aren't balanced?

Well first I would tell you to go actually play the missions and experience the boss fights yourself, rather than kneejerking off about balance. Secondly, when a level 20 boss is significantly stronger than the endgame boss, yes that means it is unbalanced. You balance things due to where they are on the levelling curve, you don't upgrade the last boss to be as difficult as one in the middle. Edited February 7, 2013 by DrAsmus

[Zythi]

Well first I would tell you to go actually play the missions and experience the boss fights yourself, rather than kneejerking off about balance. Secondly, when a level 20 boss is significantly stronger than the endgame boss, yes that means it is unbalanced. You balance things due to where they are on the levelling curve, you don't upgrade the last boss to be as difficult as one in the middle.

I have played the missions, actually. I'm sure I'll play them again at some point here in the near future, even. My ideas disagreeing with yours does not indicate a lack of experience, it indicates a difference of experience.

Secondly, I didn't say that the endgame boss being weaker than the bosses directly below him wasn't a balance problem. The difference is that I'm suggesting the balance problems exist in the endgame boss, and not the ones before him. I'm contending that he should be buffed to be as difficult if not more so.

Addressing your final point: Yes, actually. You do upgrade the last boss to be as difficult as the middle ones. This is a testing phase, and this is exactly the time to buff bosses if you're going to buff them. Just because he's above them in level but below them in difficulty does not mean he should become the magic standard things should be balanced to. It simply means he occurs after them. Nothing more, nothing less.

(typing is hard, woah)

Edited February 7, 2013 by Zythi

[Indiscipline]

You two are funny. One of you is completely maxed out and the other is playing Loki, which as we mentioned earlier is the only warframe that can handle the harder bosses due to stealth and survivability. Don't ask for more challenging things just because you have maxed your character. That's like people whining and crying about nerf MP10 in D3 because they put 1000 hours into it and beat the game.

Should I put "Loki Only" on Vay Hek for you?

Thanks tho Disciple I will add his bullet magnet to General Sargus Ruk I forgot about that.

Well first I would tell you to go actually play the missions and experience the boss fights yourself, rather than kneejerking off about balance. Secondly, when a level 20 boss is significantly stronger than the endgame boss, yes that means it is unbalanced. You balance things due to where they are on the levelling curve, you don't upgrade the last boss to be as difficult as one in the middle.

No need to get defensive and insulted. I am just saying that you are giving definite difficulty scores based on your subjective experience without listing what frame and weapons you used. Which is the most important factor to difficulty as it stands now. Until the 4th or 5th post you dont even mention you play excalibur and you still didnt say what weapons you had.

Also you finish the post with "feel free to comment...". My comment is that Loki throws a wrench into your difficulty scores. Because they are based on your experience playing whatever you did. Gorgon throws another one with stream dps which is ideal for boss shield mechanics. But you still didnt say what you had. So basically my suggestion was to add your setup to paint a clearer picture for anyone who might need this. That was the whole point of my post.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Indiscipline

[DrAsmus]

Quit attempting to bring subjectivity into it. From my testing it is very clear the difference in difficulty between certain bosses with shield traits and others. Giving all bosses instant recharge shields would make solo killing bosses impossible for anyone on ANY boss. None of the bosses should be brought up to Hyena level, that would be stupid. It is obviously the other way around that some nerfs on the shields need to happen because that is SPECIFICALLY the issue. Once the shield issues are resolved all the bosses become relatively equalized in difficulty and scale up accordingly.

And if I couldn't be any clearer you are DEAD WRONG that a boss should only be able to be killed in a group. There is a "SOLO" button for a reason, and if I don't have the POSSIBILITY of defeating every boss in the game then it just became a Co-op GROUP play game with no solo component of any value because you can't actually complete the fuckin' content.

I'll say again, go fight the Hyena, Vay Hek and Tyl Regor and then contrast those experiences with the bosses that don't have instant recharging shields. The difference is night and day and is NOT subjective.

No need to get defensive and insulted. I am just saying that you are giving definite difficulty scores based on your subjective experience without listing what frame and weapons you used. Which is the most important factor to difficulty as it stands now. Until the 4th or 5th post you dont even mention you play excalibur and you still didnt say what weapons you had.

Also you finish the post with "feel free to comment...". My comment is that Loki throws a wrench into your difficulty scores. Because they are based on your experience playing whatever you did. Gorgon throws another one with stream dps which is ideal for boss shield mechanics. But you still didnt say what you had. So basically my suggestion was to add your setup to paint a clearer picture for anyone who might need this.

When was it exactly that I gave "definite" difficulty scores? As I recall it was labelled "My Difficulty Rating" not "Disciple's Difficulty Rating". I can give that value anything I want because surprise it's MY difficulty value. If you want a definite difficulty value use the one ingame which doesn't represent the difficulty of the boss in any way shape or form. Loki happens to be one of the only warframes that is able to effectively deal with the insane shield mechanics, that doesn't mean they are acceptable or balanced simply because your warframe was perfectly suited to deal with the issue at hand. And thirdly if a boss is only able to be killed with a specific overpowered weapon that as well only proves my point that some changes need to be made.

Edited February 7, 2013 by DrAsmus

[Zythi]

Quit attempting to bring subjectivity into it. From my testing it is very clear the difference in difficulty between certain bosses with shield traits and others. Giving all bosses instant recharge shields would make solo killing bosses impossible for anyone on ANY boss. None of the bosses should be brought up to Hyena level, that would be stupid. It is obviously the other way around that some nerfs on the shields need to happen because that is SPECIFICALLY the issue. Once the shield issues are resolved all the bosses become relatively equalized in difficulty and scale up accordingly.

And if I couldn't be any clearer you are DEAD WRONG that a boss should only be able to be killed in a group. There is a "SOLO" button for a reason, and if I don't have the POSSIBILITY of defeating every boss in the game then it just became a Co-op GROUP play game with no solo component of any value because you can't actually complete the @(*()$ content.

I'll say again, go fight the Hyena, Vay Hek and Tyl Regor and then contrast those experiences with the bosses that don't have insant recharging shields. The difference is night and day and is NOT subjective.

I didn't suggest they were subjective, however this is an Group based Online Action game. At what point does the group content start if the only thing in the game that is directly analogous to group content in other games doesn't need a group. By the same logic all MMOs should do away with instances and raids because you can't complete the content solo.

As for having a solo button, sure. If you have absolutely maxed gear and the correct boss solo'ing warframes sure I can understand that. There's even people in this very thread saying they can solo these bosses. Clearly they are soloable if you massively outgear them.

I'm also not sure why you're hung up on this idea that I've never fought Hyena, Vay, or Tyl. I've explicitly stated I have. Both solo and in a group, actually.

I guess what I'm getting to is this: Why are you convinced that you absolutely should be able to solo these bosses on any warframe, even if it isn't completely min-maxed for boss killing?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Zythi

[DrAsmus]

The point at which group content starts is when you press the "Private" or "Online" selections at the option screen. While "Solo" is active every warframe should be able to complete all missions SOLO, as the button says. While playing solo no content should be impossible for players to complete. Every warframe doesn't need to be able to kill every boss in the same way but having some warframes totally unable to damage the boss, while frames like Loki walk through the most difficult overpowered encounters without blinking also points to a serious imbalance and changes that need to be made with the boss fights.

I also shouldn't have to massively outgear a boss I am ten levels higher than just to do a single point of damage. That is just utter nonsense.

And to Indiscipline, I am using Excalibur Rank 30 with a Rank 22 50% Multishot Mod Braton, AFuris and Cronus. I don't have a Gorgon or Hek because I'm still waiting on this $&*&*#(%& three day warframe build time to rank up with Ash, considering it would take me another 20 ranks on weapons just to get rank 2 on the account, due to not getting suckered into buying plat.

Oh also, as far as I can see, there is no difference in the boss difficulty other than their health value changing from solo to a group. Health seems to scale up with the number of players, but damage values, shield strength values and everything else I can see except health is identical whether you're in a group or not.

This needs to be changed, there needs to be a solo version of the boss, and a group version that scales up harder in everything per group member. Separating these two would totally alleviate the issues we've been talking about.

Edited February 7, 2013 by DrAsmus

[Zythi]

I can see your point, but all I can say is I completely disagree. You seem to be of the opinion that all content should be solo'able with any setup, and I am of the opinion that there should be some content that is expressly designed for groups, or for min-maxers to challenge themselves to complete. I happen to think endgame bosses are a good place for that to happen.

[DrAsmus]

Zythi, I am min-maxing my character as much as it possibly can. I am rank 30 with 920 shields, rank 20+ weapons and plenty of all the mods to min-max on. And what I am reporting to you, is that even with ALL this stuff, even with all this playtime and perfect tactics, these bosses are trolling me with invincible shields and spam tactics. When even the min maxers can't handle your content, then it needs to be adjusted. Right now only the very top 1% of players that have fully maxed supercharged weapons and warframes can down Vay Hek and Hyena, which are NOT endgame bosses, they are middle of the road Neptune and Earth bosses. If Ambulas was as difficult as Hyena is now, I would not complain, because he's and endgame badass. But having Hyena totally over 9000 troll on you while Ambulas is cake is just stupid. There's not much else I can say without repeating myself into redundancy.

[Zythi]

Zythi, I am min-maxing my character as much as it possibly can. I am rank 30 with 920 shields, rank 20+ weapons and plenty of all the mods to min-max on. And what I am reporting to you, is that even with ALL this stuff, even with all this playtime and perfect tactics, these bosses are trolling me with invincible shields and spam tactics. When even the min maxers can't handle your content, then it needs to be adjusted. Right now only the very top 1% of players that have fully maxed supercharged weapons and warframes can down Vay Hek and Hyena, which are NOT endgame bosses, they are middle of the road Neptune and Earth bosses. If Ambulas was as difficult as Hyena is now, I would not complain, because he's and endgame badass. But having Hyena totally over 9000 troll on you while Ambulas is cake is just stupid. There's not much else I can say without repeating myself into redundancy.

I understand that and have already expressed that I think that means Ambulas should be buffed to the level of Hyena.

[Gestalt]

EDIT: Sorry, this turned into an unreadable monster, so if you want the tl;dr, I've bolded and underlined the important stuff.

I've played either 3 or 4 online games. Total. I'm at about 350 hours clocked. So I'm pretty solo-friendly I think.

From my experience, it seems pretty much every boss has exploitable AI/pathing issues or designed weaknesses. But you need to be running with good weapons with decent mods, for sure. Maxing a frame is not required, as I've now killed Phorid/Kril/Hek/etc on my lvl6~15 Nyx (and as you know, none of her skills are particularly good vs bosses, so this is frame-independent) and as I type this I'm alt-tabbed in the mission to kill Ryl Regar. All is soloable (except Ambulus; never killed it) -- if you have high level weapons with good mods.

Here are some important keys to soloing bosses:

1) Puncture mod: I know, it's rare. But if you're lucky enough to get one on your main weapon, put it on. This is vital in facing pussy bosses who like to hide behind cover, like Hek, but it also gives you chances to shoot bosses while either you or him are behind cover. Or both.

2) Gorgon or HEK: Not everyone has HEK, as it requires Rank 4, but if you don't, a Gorgon will do. 1 puncture mod, the rest multishot. That's it; simple as that. You can possibly solo bosses with other weapons when gotten to high levels, but I don't have experience to share in that regard.

3) Frame level doesn't matter: Actually, it does, but not much. Having a level 1 Excal will probably get you killed 4 times on your way to a higher level boss, but as long as you have a decently leveled frame, it's fine. Having a higher level frame, or even a level 30 super-charged one only helps in survivability mainly, so if you're careful in avoiding damage, it's doable.

4) Cover, cover, cover: Cover is key. This cannot be stated enough. Constantly hiding behind cover and only peeking out to shoot (or better, never peek out at all, shooting through your cover) is vital in trivializing certain boss encounters.

I'll list each boss and give some notes on how the above points work in action:

Vor/Regar: These are your melee Grineers. Get familiar with your surroundings and plan out a long, straight route to run around. Basically run backwards and kite them the entire fights. Vor will teleport to you and Regar will trip you from time to time, but if you keep a decent distance between them and you, you should survive whatever hits they land and recharge your shield while you kite them.

Jackal: It's a dps-check, so stock up on ammo if your dps is low. There's really not much to talk about here. Shoot leg, shoot body, repeat. Always hide behind one of the four pillars, when he gets close, sprint to the next pillar, repeat.

Hek: He hides behind cover. Constantly. This is where your puncture comes in handy: when he's behind the crates, you just fill him with bullets. That's it, there's nothing to it. Most of the time he doesn't react when he's being shot at, since the AI tells him "oh I'm ok, cuz I'm behind cover!" Watch for the blood squirts and listen to his grunts to be certain your punctured shots are hitting, as if he's completely hidden, the numbers don't show sometimes.

Hyena: Used to be exploitable by standing in the middle of his hit-box, triggering the infinite turning, where he's trying to turn to face you. I think this was fixed, so your best bet is to find a thin pillar between him and you, and shoot through it, taking care to reposition yourself constantly as he will do his best to get to you (but not very good at it). Keep the pillar between you and puncture.

Nef Anyo: Get a main weapon or a melee weapon with electricity. Stunlock.

Golem: Straight up damage sponge fight. Move a little at a time in the same direction, shoot, move to avoid poison, shoot, repeat.

Ruk: His only issue is Bullet Attractor. Hide behind cover, peep out and lure him into putting the spell on you, pop back into cover. When it wear off, pop out and shoot. If your frame is low and shield/hp low, this might hurt. Get a hang of the cooldown between each Bullet Attractor and watch for his cast animation (he crouchs to cast it).

Anomulus or whatever: Sorry, never killed it. Apologize here; guess I haven't soloed all bosses. It doesn't drop anything I want so never bothered.

Phorid: You can either exploit him using terrain or abuse his turn speed. Exploit is easier: get him to stuck on 1) doorway arch, 2) the 3-box formation right down the stairs as you enter boss room (Ced has a whole thread with pictures about this) or 3) the broke-down elevator pad hidden in the level. Careful not to run away from him too far when kiting, as the Psychic Bolts will 1shot sometimes. Or you can do the honorable way: make circles around him and shoot/charged melee him to death; his turn speed is too slow to keep up, and he won't attack unless he's facing you. (Here's a video of the circling melee method; subtitles are in Chinese, but you can just watch him/her do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvl0UTLUmeQ)

Kril: Getting him stuck at a doorway is possible, but hard to do, so instead of that, abuse your puncture mod. He sometimes seek cover/hug walls, and when he does this, shoot him through the cover; alternatively, if you have a good puncture mod (4+), hide behind cover (usually a doorway) and shoot him through your cover. Always hide on the left of a doorway/cover and shoot out, as his Freeze comes in from a slight left angle. A third way is to crouch on top of the first box in the boss room, up the stairs -- lure him so he's on the lower level shooting up at you, as you will be able to avoid most of the shots due to cover; you can shoot him through your own cover (box) if you wish to play it carefully.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Gestalt

[Indiscipline]

As i was looking at star map thinking what to run before sleep i remebered this thread. So i took my 23 Ash, 26 Snipetron, 8 AkBolto, 30 Scindo and did Vay Hek. No trouble at all. In fact i had more trouble getting to extraction point then killing him. And i dont play melee, i mostly use Scindo for Infested missions and melee Grineer. Pure Snipetron kill. Note everything except AkBolto supercharged up to their respective levels. Snipetron has two multi mods, one 38% and one 56%, the rest %dmg and AP.

With that said, good night :)

[DrAsmus]

Thanks for the info Gestalt. I haven't found a puncture mod yet, I'll keep looking. I have been able to kill all the bosses I listed using the standard Mk1-Braton with multi-shot, fire rate and armor pierce mods.

They definitely fixed the turn to face bug on Hyena sometime before today, it now just spams shockwave when you attempt to stand close and you can't stand inside its hitbox like you used to or like with Jackal.

It seems nearly everyone simply bought a second warframe off the bat, I am waiting on account rank 2 because I have lost thousands of xp on crafting Ash while waiting at the level cap with Excalibur. So I guess I'll be able to take Vay Hek down no problem when I rank up and grab a Gorgon. What level did the armor puncture mods start showing up, does anyone know?

I like abusing the armor puncture mods to shoot through cover exactly as much as I like getting Tyl Regor stuck on a light, that is, none at all since it feels like bullS#&$ to abuse AI hitboxes and pathing, though it was extremely epic to melee kill Hyena that way.

I still am convinced that adding a 0.5 to 1 second delay on the shield recharge of bosses and nerfing the shield values a bit will really round out the gameplay on these bosses and then they can fix the pathing issues without making them impossible for anyone without puncture or a max Gorgon to kill.

[Zythi]

I've been getting puncture mods from Uranus, so I'd imagine from there and higher.

[SpiderWaifu]

Dear OP, I'd just like to point out that I plan to solo every boss using my 20 Frost, or 30 Volt, and only melee and Waframe powers.

Video proof will be included. So far I've done the Jackal, Golem and Tyr Regor without exploits.

Edited February 7, 2013 by SpiderWaifu