A Solution To The "4" Spam.

[Hazmatzone]

I'm going to keep this simple and short as possible.

 

I love this game and I love the powers each warframe has especially the powers that are used by the 4 key.

 

The current System

Although lately it's beginning to be quite a nuisance, in the game the 4 key is spammed almost every second. It makes it feel so underwhelming when you see a room of mobs die in every single room. Even though I hate it I'm a hypocrite because I do the same 4 spam as everyone else. Sometimes I press 4 so I can pick up all the excess orbs on the floor so I can press 4 in the future.

 

Now this needs a revamp if you ask me because people have been begging for a Nerf to Molecular prime or Nova because of how it's such a devastating power. This isn't the answer though because 4 spam happens on just about every warframe with the exception of Excalibur, nyx, and Loki. The problems aren't the powers themselves because a ultimate is supposed to be devastating, it's supposed to be a get out of trouble fast card, but that's not how it is implemented in this game because of how blue orbs drop in excess from crates and enemies. This isn't a bad thing because powers should always be available for use but not the ultimates or as the community calls them "4"s.

 

My Suggestion for a fix

What I propose is a change to the mechanic of "4"s where instead of "pick up four blue orbs and clear a room" which leads to the enemies in the room you just cleared dropping four orbs to keep the "4" spam going almost indefinitely. What I would like to see is a new "orb", a new colored orb in this case let's make it "red" the opposite color of blue. These red orbs will be required in order to use a warframe's "4", and two red orb will allow for one "4". These red orbs though will drop at a much lower rate than the rate of current blue orbs in the game, they will drop from crates and enemies though just like how blue orbs do currently.

 

In addition to the new orb we also get a new "bar" that is located right under the current energy bar, we will call this new "bar" an "ultimate bar" and it will respond to red orbs. The ultimate bar will have a max capacity of 3 and every red orb picked up will fill it up one 1/3 of the way so for all you readers who aren't too good with math that means 3 red orbs will fill up the ultimate bar to max.

 

The outcomes for my suggestion

The main thing and immediate thing that this change attempts to fix is the spamming of 4 everywhere in this game. It'll provide more of a balance between powers and guns, because as it is now why take the time to shoot everything one by one when you can just press 4 and kill everything? Also when it comes to playing the game when a player presses the 4 key and uses the ultimate it'll actually make you feel like you're powerful instead of making it feel like "oh man I can just do this all day it's no big of a deal". The change will also bring more strategy into the game, for example when in defense missions killing enemies in lower levels and them dropping a red orb will give players the mindset of "I won't waste my ultimate here, I'll save it for higher levels or when I actually will need it".

 

Disadvantages

Currently I couldn't think of any disadvantages if DE were to implement this system but that doesn't mean there aren't any, if you community members think of any please let me know so that we as a community can brainstorm, find solutions, and make changes to my proposal. Currently though the current system needs a change and I think the community will agree.

[Gostteam]

Although I 100% UNSUPPORT THIS, I SUPPORT IT.

 

 

I unsupport it because I spam 4 Also, and it clears rooms, making the game 100% easier.

[Hipolipolopigus]

B-B-But how will we rush through missions and completely avoid enjoying the content?! D:<

 

+1

[-Kittens-]

There are several disadvantages, but they apply to high level enemies and survival/defense missions.

 

The thing is, guns already do this, sure you may have to shoot once or maybe even three times for every dude, but honestly the clearing still doesn't take long unless the enemies are super beefy.

 

Also, rushers will simply leave the enemies behind alive instead of killing them, so it may not fix the problem as succinctly as you seem to be hoping it will.

 

Also health orbs are already red.

Edited August 15, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Metalarcher]

I like the idea of reducing 4 spam, but I feel like the solution is a bit lacking.  Instead of picking up other orbs, giving us yet another incentive to run to point x, y, and z constantly to clear a room, there should be some sort of ultimate bar that responds to quick and accurate shooting or varied attack styles, or maybe a combination of both depending on the Warframe.  This would give the 'frames more personality as well as an added layer of skill.

[-Kittens-]

I like the idea of reducing 4 spam, but I feel like the solution is a bit lacking.  Instead of picking up other orbs, giving us yet another incentive to run to point x, y, and z constantly to clear a room, there should be some sort of ultimate bar that responds to quick and accurate shooting or varied attack styles, or maybe a combination of both depending on the Warframe.  This would give the 'frames more personality as well as an added layer of skill.

 

Not a bad idea at all, but it also starts instituting skill ceilings.

[TheGambler_BR]

While the separate pool would allow for more liberal usage of the other three skills, on various frames (volt, nyx, ember, excal, loki, frost, vauban) this wouldn't make any difference.

That's because the problem doesn't lie solely on the damage and AoE those ultis have (or don't, for volt and ember).

 

I think the issue can't be corrected this simply.

 

First of all, we'd be hostages of RNG YET AGAIN. We'd depend on ultorbs drops, we could go through an entire mission without ever seeing one, or find 6, 7 in a row. RNG dependance is bad.

 

Second of all, This still doesn't solve the "ulti to clear room" issue. If there's dozens of mooks standing close to eachother, then if you ult there you have a good chance to net yourself one or more meaty ultorb(s). This would only allow, as I said, for more liberal usage of the first three skills - which in certain frames are their strongest anyway.

 

 

 

If I were to suggest something, I'd say give the players a system akin to fighters: dishing out -and taking - damage would fill up a bar (that empties when not in use) that allows for ultimate usage, while keeping the current system for other powers (although I'd prefer if energy would regenerate in this case).

Makes no sense at all, but I think it balances it. Ultimates would only be available as a get out of jail free card.

 

Truth be told, ideally we should have different ways to access our ultimates for each frame. Volt would get his by dealing raw electrical damage, excal by attacking with his melee...

[Hipolipolopigus]

100% SUPPORT

 

However, The #4 skill in every warframe's arsenal isn't the only problem.

 

Have you ever tried playing infested defence or infested mobile defence?

 

When a Frost Warframe uses his #3 skill right on top of the Cryopod.

 

Thus, having no effect whatsoever, but instead making it a nightmare zone for Ogris and squishy warframe users, such as nova.

 

Though, I do assume you knew this already just throwing it out there.

So.., Don't play defence with pubs that think "Hurrdurr Frost best defence" or stop using the Ogris as a crutch? :P

[fishworshipper]

Red is already taken.

Make the orbs orange.

[LasersGoPewPew]

my 2 cents on what would fix the ultimate spam:
 

make it so you have to kill enemies with your guns/melees, a set amount of them to store a "charge" for the ultimate, so instead of running in the room pressing 4 and leaving with uber affinity gain, you have to actually kill things and be weary of your "charge" count. the "charge" could cap at 3-4 and be increased by flow?........... which could leave it at 7/8 charges. still enough where it could be used wisely but not so much that its' still "press 4 to win" like it is now.

[clayduck]

A lot of games have a cooldown on spells/effects in addition to their "mana" costs so that you can't continually cast them.  If you put a 15 or 30 second delay on the abilities then they can't be spammed over and over again.

 

Another solution is to change the drop rates on blue energy orbs.  Even simple abilities like Slash Dash are free because killing three enemies will get you back at least one energy ball.  So if they actually limit the amount of energy available then the abilities can't be kept active all the time.

[Hazmatzone]

While the separate pool would allow for more liberal usage of the other three skills, on various frames (volt, nyx, ember, excal, loki, frost, vauban) this wouldn't make any difference.

That's because the problem doesn't lie solely on the damage and AoE those ultis have (or don't, for volt and ember).

I think the issue can't be corrected this simply.

First of all, we'd be hostages of RNG YET AGAIN. We'd depend on ultorbs drops, we could go through an entire mission without ever seeing one, or find 6, 7 in a row. RNG dependance is bad.

 

Second of all, This still doesn't solve the "ulti to clear room" issue. If there's dozens of mooks standing close to eachother, then if you ult there you have a good chance to net yourself one or more meaty ultorb(s). This would only allow, as I said, for more liberal usage of the first three skills - which in certain frames are their strongest anyway.

 

If I were to suggest something, I'd say give the players a system akin to fighters: dishing out -and taking - damage would fill up a bar (that empties when not in use) that allows for ultimate usage, while keeping the current system for other powers (although I'd prefer if energy would regenerate in this case).

Makes no sense at all, but I think it balances it. Ultimates would only be available as a get out of jail free card.

 

Truth be told, ideally we should have different ways to access our ultimates for each frame. Volt would get his by dealing raw electrical damage, excal by attacking with his melee...

While I agree that RNG dictating my suggested system isn't that good of an idea, I see problems in the suggestions people have been making whereas the ultibar would be filled by dishing out damage.

 

That system would not promote any teamwork and just promote greed and competition. I'll use myself as an example, occasionally I'll go to M-Prime to farm ferrite which is a low level mission, there I'll usually run into low level players. As it is now I'll just open crates and not kill any enemies but let's say just for example that I'm cold-hearted and don't care. I'm level 30 and they're like level 4 or 5, I'll go around killing everything and just maxing my bar while they go around getting no energy for their bar taking away from a good deal of the game's fun from them.

 

This'll also be a problem in higher level missions because if the bar is hard enough to fill to the point where it actually feels like a true ultimate then splitting enemies between 4 people will be a problem and someone will just rack in all energy for the ultimate if they're weapon is better than their teammate's weapons. Promoting both min-maxing so you can deal more damage than your teammates, and also promoting soloing in a co-op game. Unless the bar energy was shared which would also be bad because it promotes leeching.

 

I'm glad to see people adding feedback though.

 

EDIT: As for the "red orb" thing guys it was just an example, lol, it can be purple or gold or brown for all I care.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Hazmatzone

[Hammie]

I don't think this issue can be resolved so simply, the problem is threefold:

 

1) Energy is too accessible, between the ridiculous drop rates of energy orbs, and the energy regeneration of a team with 4 energy siphons, it becomes too easy to mash "4" repeatedly. Both of these things need to be toned down to give energy its 'value' back. Also keep in mind - a frame's "4" is not always its most devastating ability.

 

2) Enemies are too weak and abundant. It is because of the potential of having 20-30 enemies rushing at your 4-man group whenever you round a corner that spamming ultimates becomes so attractive. While i personally enjoy going up against so many enemies, the knowledge that my ultimate can clean them all out makes popping my ultimate ability a convenience rather than the 'oh S#&$!' ability it should be.

 

3) The concept of ultimates doesn't contribute in a good way to the rest of the mechanics of warframe. It trivializes the difficulty of the game, which in turn contributes to how DE is currently handling scaling difficulty, higher armor ratings, higher hp amounts, higher damage outputs. This in turn makes spamming especially attractive on maps such as defense and mobile defense. Ultimate abilities have too wide of an area of effect, they deal too much damage, and only serve to make the game too easy. I would prefer to see ultimates changed to something of a smaller scale, cone effects, fancy maneuvers and physics effects, something that doesnt just outright kill 90% of the nearby enemies.

 

All three of these issues need to be addressed in order to fix this problem. And to be quite honest, this isn't the only thing in warframe that needs fixing in a bad way...

Edited August 14, 2013 by Hammie

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

So your idea is to give people a second energy bar and clutter up drop rates with a "solution" that solves nothing. Right.

[Mhak]

Not a terrible idea and I +1 you for coming up with something. My proposed fix is to simply reduce the power cost of the 1-3 abilities, reduce the power of *some* of those abilities to compensate, and reduce the effectiveness of the Flow mod.

 

Example - say there's a team clearing high level waves of Corpus endless defense. There's a rank 30 Volt on the team with max level Flow mod, giving him only 200 power. His Shock ability frankly doesn't need to be nerfed if it only cost 10-15 power, it's not a powerhouse skill. But if it only cost 10 power, he could use it 10x more often than his ultimate. Suddenly that's looking like a really solid trade-off to just spamming his ultimate, which might be overkill, whereas he could fit his description of  "alternative to gunplay" by actually using his 1-3 skills very often if he wants to.

 

Doesn't have to be Volt. Take Ember, Frost, Saryn, pretty much any frame except maybe Vauban, Ash and Rhino who already have very solid #1s should have their #1 ability reduced to 10-15 power so they can use it much more often and make it a skill worth using. The math behind making a #1 skill cost only 1/4 the power of the ultimate, while being FAR LESS than 25% as effective as the ultimate, is the main problem as I see it.

[neKroMancer]

Problem with 'spam4' is based on game concept itself. Warframe's concept is based on 'badass space ninja killing tons of enemies'. This means the game will throw large amount of AI at the player and the player has a tool to deal with said situation.

 

AOE direct damage powers.

 

While it's good in paper, the symptom of said problem starting to show - spam4 which lead to lack of depth in gameplay, meaningless enemies, and scaling problem.

 

In order to effectively deal with this problem, the concept must be changed so that the tool can be changed. 

 

Another problem is the energy system. This system is based on RNG mechanic which makes energy inconsistently dropped. Players are encouraged to use energy in the most efficient way possible. 

 

What could be better than wiping the whole room with one button?

 

Now, we see the root cause of the problem.

1. Game concpt

2. Energy system.

 

In order to make gameplay more tactical, we need to tackle these two problems first.

[CaptainohCaptain]

If we want to reduce 4 to win, we should have longer cast (Just look at the Trinity), shields depleted and +10 seconds delay on their regeneration after cast. Also, should fix some things, like Rhino stomp affecting flying enemies.

[Tortured_Reaver]

I'm sorry... am I the only one here that enjoys clearing an entire room in one move?
It's called an Ultimate for a reason...

[CaptainohCaptain]

I'm sorry... am I the only one here that enjoys clearing an entire room in one move?

It's called an Ultimate for a reason...

Nah, it's not Ultimate without 1000 and one problem of handling.

Look at Ogris gun: Charge, jam, self-damage, can't pass Globe, can't pass Volt's shield, can be destructed in mid-air... but goddamn 500 scaling AoE!

[Tortured_Reaver]

Nah, it's not Ultimate without 1000 and one problem of handling.

Look at Ogris gun: Charge, jam, self-damage, can't pass Globe, can't pass Volt's shield, can be destructed in mid-air... but goddamn 500 scaling AoE!

We're talking skills here.

Last I checked as well, the Ogris doesn't wipe out a 30 meter radius.

[CaptainohCaptain]

We're talking skills here.

Last I checked as well, the Ogris doesn't wipe out a 30 meter radius.

I know, but we don't have good example for good ult in the world of magic (Because it has nothing to do with skills).

[EirikAura]

Run Nyx and try spamming 4.

 

Run Nyx with Shade and try spamming 4.

 

Chaos is good, doesn't kill any of them but gets you out of the shizz when you need it. Absorb does buggerall especially when you have a Shade.

[Apriori]

Problem with 'spam4' is based on game concept itself. Warframe's concept is based on 'badass space ninja killing tons of enemies'. This means the game will throw large amount of AI at the player and the player has a tool to deal with said situation.

[...]

 

I have to agree with the whole post. But I don't think the whole concept must change. Well at least the enemies should behave much smarter, or should come around with some tactics against us so we too have to come up with some tactics. Or give them at least some CC, not knock-down abilities only.

Right now, there's even no disadvantage when using a skill, wasting energy is all what happens.

 

Refering to Hazmatzones suggestion: a seperate bar or energy ressource specially for ultimates may work, but just using new orbs would just - as some other stated already - would make this more RNG-based and I doubt it would really pretend spamming "4".

[RainDreamer]

Just have an ultimate bar build up by time + damage done to enemies + damage sustained. Then you have a limiter of how many ultimates you can cast at one time.

[Hiraldo]

I don't have any of the really OP ult frames, but in my opinion they don't need a nerf because they're meant to be an integral part of gameplay used for certain situations. Most of the "OP" ones  are for crowd control (CC), and thus seem overpowered. Maybe instead of nerfing the ults, make the guns and enemies better?