Ash Rework

[EdBazokatone]

First of all, I know there are other warframes needing buffs/reworks, more than Ash does.
Second, I know many people believe that Ash is ok as it is right now (I tend to think that solo players are these ones) and that many others just hate him because he doesn't bring anything to the table when it comes to team play.
That being said, the purpose of this is to give him a solid team play because, after all this is a co-op oriented game, without leaving his solo potential aside, so everyone is happy.
Note that I will not say anything about numbers like damage, duration, range, etc. Only mechanics, leaving numbers to devs.
So let's jump straight into his abilities, this might be a little disorganized but they are just thoughts as they come to my mind that I'm throwing to discuss.

1-Shuriken

This is a decent ability, but when compared to other first abilities, it is not that good. The problem is that it only targets two enemies, supposedly it can puncture two targets max and perform headshots, but I never could (call me noob whatever). Still weak compared to sonic boom, slash dash, rhino charge, etc.
To make this skill more viable, the puncture and targeting part need to be changed. What I thought is to give it limited range but maximun puncture, so you shot it and everything in that line gets hit. Using it like a skill shot so you can aim that line, like slash dash. Meaning no more auto targeting, which has its uses (ospreys).

2-Stealth (previous smoke screen)

I'm removing the CC part of the skill (smoke screen) to remake it as his ult, more on this later.
For the stealth part I have two ideas.
One is to leave it just as a stealth only skill, much like Loki's invisibility, to not complicate things or mechanics. The skill could be named just Stealth.
The other one I find it more interesting but complicated at the same time. I'm thinking about something like etherealness, which can make him invisible but not inaudible (like a ghost, you can't see them but you can hear them, if they want to), so enemies can react to you like they do when afected by radial blind. To balance things he can have some small damage reduction since he is ethereal after all, and would be less affected by physics. But I’m not sure about this last part, don't want him to be OP. This mechanic could separate him once and for all from comparisons between Smoke Bomb and Invisibility, both skills would be different and unique. The skill could be named Etherealness.

3-Blade Storm/Teleport

These two are actually his less used skills, so I'm thinking about what they did with rhino, merging two skills in one. Teleport is considered his only ability to have team play capabilities because he can get to downed allies faster. Personally I find this a joke, to say that he brings usefulness because of this. We don't need it, but movility is always good, so keep reading.
Blade Storm's damage is actually really good, but it takes just too much time to kill things because of his targeting system, plus it offers no utility at all, something expected for an ult.
So I'm thinking about merging the two skills to have one that teleports him to a target followed by an AOE damage animation, which can be many things, like spining in the area while throwing knives around him, or maybe spinning while swinging his melee, something like that. Many cool posibilities for this, but whatever it is, it needs to be fast. A real Blade Storm after all.
Suggestion by nintega: staggers for a few seconds so he doesn't suicide using it.

4-Smoke Bombs

In his actual state, smoke bomb is used only for stealth and not for CC, because duration and range are too short to be usefull. I mean in this game enemies don't cast abilities you need to interrupt to prevent bad things happening, so using it to supress fire for 1 second... come on. That leaves Ash with a nerfed version of Loki's invisibility. But this can still be used to give Ash what he needs, ultility and team play. The mechanics to use this as an ultimate skill are out there (radial blind).
So what I'm talking about is that Ash could still have his smoke bomb but as his ultimate, throwing many of them in a large area (like radial disarm or radial blind), incapacitating enemies for a couple of seconds (like the first part of radial blind). From this point many different things could happen. Blindind them is not an options because it'll be radial blind with a different name... Maybe Deafening them because of the noise? This could actually work with what I proposed about his Etherealness (again the mechanic is out there, banshee's silence). The point is to give him some strong CC to finally bring anything to team play.
Another effect that could be added, is to give the team stealth for a short duration. That could be awesome indeed. I'm giving options to discuss here, not saying to add all of them in one overkill skill.

So that would be all folks, take it for what it is, ideas and opinions on how to make Ash a real and viable options when it comes to team play. Also I tried to leave his solo play intact.

Tell me what you think, please read before replying with the typical :NO: answer. The whole point of this is to discuss any ideas (not only the ones I proposed), and with any luck the desing team will look at this and say "hey that actually sounds good", even if is only one out of many.

Teleport (by MagnusFury)

Ash teleports 25/45/45/50 meters to an enemy target and strikes them, dealing 300/450/600/750 damage. Living targets recieve a 1/1/2/3 second stun. [innate Silence] [stun] [Effected by Power Strength and similar mods]
- Cast on unalerted enemies, Teleport deals Armor Piercing damage. Alert enemies recieve Blade damage.
- Upon teleporting behind his selected target, Ash draws the blades from his arms and strikes the enemy. A small, 1-2 second animation plays out (similar to those of Bladestorm).
- Successfully killing the target with Teleport will not alert any enemies.
- An unsuccessful attempt at killing the target will yield a 1/1/2/3 second stun, giving Ash the opportunity to perform a melee stealth attack (or use of silenced guns). [Not effected by mods] (target will be alert if still alive after stun recovery)
- Stunned enemy will have a colored lining, decided by the Energy Palette your Ash has on.
- An unsuccessful attempt on killing the target will alert enemies within a 10 meter radius on all mod levels. [Not effected by mods]
- Stun works on all armored units. Stealth Attack retains all current limits.
- Stealth attack does not apply to bosses. Stun does not effect heavy bosses. (Phorid, J3 Golem, Kela)
- Ash cannot teleport to Allies
- You do not gain the stealth attack opportunity on alert enemies, only stun.

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TL:DR version

gotcha

Edited November 15, 2013 by EdBazokatone

[Archistopheles]

You compare Shuriken to Sonic Boom and Rhino Charge, but not to Ember's fireball, Volt's shock, or Frost's freeze?

 

I see what you're trying to say, but you can't compare a direct-damage ability with a hard-CC one.

[Nagisawa]

The biggest thing I'd do for Ash's powers is make them SILENT.  Right now, I can't shuriken anything without alerting the room.

[EdBazokatone]

You compare Shuriken to Sonic Boom and Rhino Charge, but not to Ember's fireball, Volt's shock, or Frost's freeze?

 

I see what you're trying to say, but you can't compare a direct-damage ability with a hard-CC one.

I wasn't comparing them as damage or cc abilities, more like if they are good abilities, or balanced in general, despite what they do. Those 3 are in the balance side of the first abilities imo ofc. I didnt compare it to fireball, shock or freeze becase all 3 of them are nerfed to hell, and they need work too to be at the same level of usefulness as the ones I mention, for that same reason I didn't compare it to Pull, because it isn't balanced at all.

[nintega]

You're definitely going in the right direction with Smoke Bombs. Shuriken, however, you're trying to make into a safer version of Slash Dash, which would hardly be fair to Excalibuer. Shuriken can already reach some impressive heights as it is, thanks to the corrupted mods (you can see that best right here http://youtu.be/K4qXQLnCYFs?t=1m40s).

 

For Smoke Bombs, I like the idea of stealthing your entire team, Roar, Speed, Blessing, all those powers buff the entire team in the vicinity, why not give them, say 5 or 6 seconds of Stealth at max rank, for the whole team? And better yet, what I've thought was a good idea for Ash's Ult, have it create a clone like Nekros' Shadows, that lasts for as long as the effect of Smoke Bombs does, and fights alongside you (maybe melee only to make good of the Stealth bonus).

 

Also, for your idea of what to do with Teleport, have it incapacitate the enemy he targets, so it can be used to suppress heavy units, then give him a few seconds of that Etherealness afterwards so he can escape safely.

[EdBazokatone]

You're definitely going in the right direction with Smoke Bombs. Shuriken, however, you're trying to make into a safer version of Slash Dash, which would hardly be fair to Excalibuer. Shuriken can already reach some impressive heights as it is, thanks to the corrupted mods (you can see that best right here http://youtu.be/K4qXQLnCYFs?t=1m40s).

 

For Smoke Bombs, I like the idea of stealthing your entire team, Roar, Speed, Blessing, all those powers buff the entire team in the vicinity, why not give them, say 5 or 6 seconds of Stealth at max rank, for the whole team? And better yet, what I've thought was a good idea for Ash's Ult, have it create a clone like Nekros' Shadows, that lasts for as long as the effect of Smoke Bombs does, and fights alongside you (maybe melee only to make good of the Stealth bonus).

 

Also, for your idea of what to do with Teleport, have it incapacitate the enemy he targets, so it can be used to suppress heavy units, then give him a few seconds of that Etherealness afterwards so he can escape safely.

mm maybe you're right about shuriken, the good thing is that it is the only one that I said anything good about, it is decent enough to stay as it is, maybe adding a third target, nothing big.

For Smoke Bombs that's what I was thinking of, maybe 5 seconds of team stealth, so if you heavy mod for duration you can get about 12seconds, nothing crazy like the 30secs that loki can get.

I like the teleport idea, 1 second stagger so you dont suicide using it, but the idea of high risk high reward should remain there.

Added as a suggestion.

Good stuff

Edited November 15, 2013 by EdBazokatone

[SpectreWolfe]

You're definitely going in the right direction with Smoke Bombs. Shuriken, however, you're trying to make into a safer version of Slash Dash, which would hardly be fair to Excalibuer. Shuriken can already reach some impressive heights as it is, thanks to the corrupted mods (you can see that best right here http://youtu.be/K4qXQLnCYFs?t=1m40s).

 

For Smoke Bombs, I like the idea of stealthing your entire team, Roar, Speed, Blessing, all those powers buff the entire team in the vicinity, why not give them, say 5 or 6 seconds of Stealth at max rank, for the whole team? And better yet, what I've thought was a good idea for Ash's Ult, have it create a clone like Nekros' Shadows, that lasts for as long as the effect of Smoke Bombs does, and fights alongside you (maybe melee only to make good of the Stealth bonus).

 

Also, for your idea of what to do with Teleport, have it incapacitate the enemy he targets, so it can be used to suppress heavy units, then give him a few seconds of that Etherealness afterwards so he can escape safely.

Maybe they can make shuriken dish out three shots instead of one, make it silent, and make the shot broader so that it wouldn't be sooooo hard to hit anything with it.

[Scar.Heart]

Ash is stealthy.

Whether he contributes to the team or not isn't my concern. Moreover, if he can't use his abilities in silence, then I have a problem.

____

 

Shuriken

Maxed, it deals 500 damage per shuriken thrown, up to 1k in a toss. Awesome. However, to use it silently, you must expend energy from Smoke Bomb. That's a problem that can be solved by giving it innate silence. Other than that, there's no real need to change this skill (imo).

 

Somke Bomb

I have nothing in mind to better this skill without breaking it.

 

Teleport

While the mobility is potentially great, the skill feels unfinished, and isn't working properly (for Ash).

Ash is stealthy, but likes to give fellow Tenno something to see (see: Bladestorm). We can build on that.

Teleport

Ash teleports 25/45/45/50 meters to an enemy target and strikes them, dealing 300/450/600/750 damage. Living targets recieve a 1/1/2/3 second stun. [innate Silence] [stun] [Effected by Power Strength and similar mods]

- Cast on unalerted enemies, Teleport deals Armor Piercing damage. Alert enemies recieve Blade damage.

 

- Upon teleporting behind his selected target, Ash draws the blades from his arms and strikes the enemy. A small, 1-2 second animation plays out (similar to those of Bladestorm).

 

- Successfully killing the target with Teleport will not alert any enemies.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt at killing the target will yield a 1/1/2/3 second stun, giving Ash the opportunity to perform a melee stealth attack (or use of silenced guns). [Not effected by mods] (target will be alert if still alive after stun recovery)

 

- Stunned enemy will have a colored lining, decided by the Energy Palette your Ash has on.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt on killing the target will alert enemies within a 10 meter radius on all mod levels. [Not effected by mods]

 

- Stun works on all armored units. Stealth Attack retains all current limits.

 

- Stealth attack does not apply to bosses. Stun does not effect heavy bosses. (Phorid, J3 Golem, Kela)

 

- Ash cannot teleport to Allies

 

- You do not gain the stealth attack opportunity on alert enemies, only stun.

 

Those are my thoughts on Teleport.

 

Bladestorm

Excellent damage, but takes too long to execute.

If Bladestorm's speed isn't going to change, simply raise Ash's threat level to max for all enemies he targets.

This will buy much needed time for allies in the area, while allowing the enemy to attack the Tenno with units who are not caught in Ash's rampage.

 

However, if we can change the speed/animations, Ash would do fine with his Poke/Slash of Death, as seen when striking MOA's, Ospreys, and Rollers.

This gives him great speed in executing his skill, thereby eliminating/damaging all targets quickly.

 

P.S. My thoughts are subject to change. Please be gentle.

Edited November 15, 2013 by MagnusFury

[EdBazokatone]

That's a solid teleport MagnumFury, I'm adding it to the post.

 

Keep the ideas coming!

[EirikAura]

While you're at it, why not rename it Loki?

 

All you are doing is removing his unique abilities and remaking him as Loki with a damage 1

 

Shuriken - Good 1st, maybe should scale with the enemy or just always do headshots

 

Smoke Bomb - What's not to love about invis and melee plus? Leave as is. Wouldn't mind the invul back but that ain't going to happen is it?

 

Teleport - Take off the forced flip and make him able to teleport to any location

 

Bladestorm - Possibly the coolest ult in the game, visually and for effect. Yes it's slow but he is killing each one individually. Make it target heaviest units first and that would do fine.

[EdBazokatone]

I dont think that I'm removing any of his skills, I'm just moving them around, fusing them, but they are still there. I don't see any stealth nor melee plus removed. About the blade storm targeting heavy units first, seems like a good idea, but it will eventually fall off, like many other ults that remain useless as the game progresses in levels.

Anyway you are talking about buffs to his current skills, and this is a rework post, and the reason of it is to try to give him something to bring to the table when it comes to team play in a co-op oriented game, without taking away his solo play of course.

[EirikAura]

The problem is you're not reworking Ash, you're making an inferior clone FROM Ash. That's the problem I have. Smoke Bombs = Radial Blind. Shuriken = stationary Slash Dash. Bladestorm is nerfed into nothing. Stealth is a slight nerf on Smoke Bomb really.

 

Where is the team play you want?

 

The only ability that actually does need work on Ash is Teleport. Swap that out for a CC or team utility if you must but leave his core skills alone, they are what define him.

[EdBazokatone]

mmm ok... leave your suggested skill and I will be pleased to add it to the post, as I did with other suggestions. How do you think that CC skill should be, stuff like that. No need to attack, just add stuff. If those are your suggestions perfect then, I'll use them as general ideas.

I never said "this is how Ash needs to be", I'm just suggesting skills (I thought this was clear), encouraging others to leave theirs. In the end, hopefully, we will have a list of many different suggestions so if DE decide to give it a look, they could add it to the their own thoughts.

Edited November 15, 2013 by EdBazokatone

[Nagisawa]

Teleport should be a single target, one strike Blade Storm in my opinion.  He flashes to a target, stabs it, and then teleports back to his original position.