Ash Abilities Improvement

[Nox-Lamina]

Ideas from myself and the community on ways to improve Ash's abilities, credit is given where it is due.

 

Shuriken: Used to be Serrated Blade damage type or referred to as Armor Ignore damage (as 4 damage types were called Armor Ignore interchangeably) and this has been misconstrued by some to have been replaced by Puncture damage as the next best thing. The current issue with it being slash damage is that it doesn't hold up well to Grineer and is neutral to Corpus. And since Infested visit in short bursts unless you're on an Orokin Derelict people think it has lost some usefulness. Changing it to Puncture will only shift problems from Grineer to Corpus especially Techs who are annoying and worth a lot of exp. Yes Puncture does decreased damage to shields, and corpus use them as their first line of defense. 

 

In order to fix(I use that word lightly) Shuriken give back the stun it used to have so that even if it doesn't hurt or kill a target it will stun them and give it an 100% (up for debate) bleed proc just because warframe abilities  either don't proc or don't proc enough. The next part I have heard suggested by many people is that there should be a charge mechanic where you throw one shuriken that doesn't seek enemies but it does 3x headshot damage and can pierce multiple enemies let's say punch through distance of 3m. Both options put together would make Shuriken well worth  any energy spent. It should be silent as per MagnusFury's suggestion, and it does fall in line with the throwing knives being totally silent.

 

Smoke Screen: This and invisibility are two of the abilities in game that can be used quite well. Take heat off the player when they're weak/surrounded/need to revive a bro/just to make the game easier or to sneak and speed past everyone and get to that survival pod that spawned on the dark side of nowhere. The problem is the misconception that Ash's invisibility is inferior or diminished in value because it is not as long as Loki's. It isn't, long invisibility is Loki short invisibility is Ash. The stun with Smoke Screen can't be taken advantage of as well if you are spending 30+ seconds invisible along with your less violent brother .

 

In order to better smoke Screen a mod (Whom I'd love to read this thread so I can can give him/her all of the credit) proposed that while invisible that Ash is still capable casting it in order to stun enemies at a reduced cost. I think it should be 25 energy unaffected by efficiency. Another idea (again I'd love to know who came up with it so I can give them credit) was that it could give a radiation-esque proc and cause confusion. Using Chaos as a reference BUT causing the confusion of the radiation proc I.E causing enemies to become inaccurate and target others. Upon leaving the smokescreen they could have a 3-4 second 20% accuracy debuff after suffering a 4-5 second radiation proc. If you must know these are the values of max chaos divided by 3. If necessary so that it cannot be spammed there should be a 4 second cooldown on the ability. The ability should not be as effective once used on the same enemies twice.

 

The duration of invisibility is and should be determined by duration mods while the duration of the radiation proc and/or accuracy debuff should be determined by strength mods I.E stronger bomb = thicker smoke and stronger aftereffects.

 

Teleport: This does stun enemies once you teleport to them(if I am wrong it should). DE just needs to spend a few days assuring it can teleport you more reliably as in 99/100 times. Maybe it should allow you to do a stealth attack on your opponent MagnusFury suggested something like this see his post below. If possible make it free aim, if not oh well we can't have everything.

 

Blade Storm: Wiegraf (original person who came up with the idea, going to just credit him here rather than copypaste and redo the paragraph, and his original post is below) , Cwierz,and numerous others have suggested a fix to Bladestorm that is unparalleled in fixing all of the issues:

 

Around the forums a pretty good idea has been amuck. Instead of ash doing the killing, he should use clones that do it for him. There hasn't been much around in the way that this would work so I thought of a way that it could work.

 

Rank 0- 1 Clone is launched, each clone strikes 4 enemies

 

Rank 1- 2 Clones are launched, each strikes 4 enemies

 

Rank 2- 3 Clones are launched, each strikes 4 enemies

 

Rank 3- 4 Clones are launched, each strikes 4 enemies

 

Full post here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/155320-warframe-feedback-ash/

 

The original coined by Wiegraf (see post below) suggested to have Ash join in and strike 4 enemies. I.E reduce the number of clones by 1 with the rank 0 version having Ash kill 4 enemies in the same way it plays out now, with that as the base amount of time Ash is out of combat.

 

In my view he is on a rampage people, deathblows and quick animations. When I see Bladestorm I want to be sorry for the enemies who died so fast they wake up on the other side trying to block Ash. If it is at all possible priority should be given to the enemies on the tile with the largest amounts of health/shields.

 

If passives every become a thing. Weapons like Bows, Crossbows, knives, daggers (single and dual) should get a boost in damage and puncture distance when used with Ash.

 

TL;DR

Give Shuriken stun. Make 2nd mode that has 3x headshot multiplier and 3m pierce. 100% chance to bleed proc on both

 

Smoke Screen: Let  it be recast while invisible at a reduced cost and possibly give radiation style proc

 

Teleport: Ensure reliability. Make free aim if possible

 

Bladestorm: Clones + Ash do killing, make it significantly faster. Make it focus on the toughest enemies first.

 

If people find this overpowering, I am not suggesting  that the suggestions should be implemented in their entirety.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[Leetium]

I just want to feel more confident about aiming with anything skill related.

 

Thus i hate myself when a computer chooses a target and automatically plays tomahawk homing rocket system.

 

I'd be okay with one Shuriken doing 2x the damage without the automated following.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Already a thread for this, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/163012-loki-vs-ash-ash-needs-a-buff/page-3#entry1920130. Lets combine the conversations not make multiple ones. 

[Nox-Lamina]

Already a thread for this, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/163012-loki-vs-ash-ash-needs-a-buff/page-3#entry1920130. Lets combine the conversations not make multiple ones. 

 

One it is not a sticky. Two that thread is hostile because frankly people are comparing Ash to Loki in it and people are just getting defensive and not listening. That is hardly a marketplace for ideas, so I'd rather be divisive and limit the flaming.

 

This is a thread about Ash, what his abilities are/were and trying to improve them by seeing where they fall down/what was done right. Not about arbitrarily comparing two frames with one ability in common that I pointed out were intended for different purposes and included the ideas of others that capitalize on the ability.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[WARLOCKE]

smoke bomb is fine, dont talk about smoke bomb.

[Wiegraf]

The Smoke Clone idea : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/146355-ash-and-loki-are-getting-left-behind-de/?view=findpost&p=1733707

 

As quoted :

 

 

Ash's ultimate is a problem; sure, you don't want to do away with the animation that plays while you jump from one target to another... but you don't want to be stuck for 15 seconds in an elaborate cutscene either.

 

One way to fix it would be to reduce the number of instances that you get to see that 'cutscene' and a viable one would be for Ash to create Smoke Clones when using his 4th ability above rank 1. Basically this :

 

Bladestorm Rank 0 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- A total of 3-4 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 1 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 1 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 6-8 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 2 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 2 Smoke Clones jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 9-12 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 3 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 3 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 12-16 enemies are dealt damage

 

This way, no matter the rank of Bladestorm, you have, at most, 3 to 4 'cuts' during Ash's 4th ability while dealing with as many enemies as he would now. From the player's perspective, he gets 3 to 4 cuts using his animations; from an ally perspective, 12 to enemies gets taken down by Ash and 3 Smoke Clones taking down 3-4 enemies at once, 4 times. Ash's 4th is now reduced to 3-4 seconds top.

 

[Rabidbluedeath]

One it is not a sticky. Two that thread is hostile because frankly people are comparing Ash to Loki in it and people are just getting defensive and not listening. That is hardly a marketplace for ideas, so I'd rather be divisive and limit the flaming.

 

This is a thread about Ash, what his abilities are/were and trying to improve them by seeing where they fall down/what was done right. Not about arbitrarily comparing two frames with one ability in common that I pointed out were intended for different purposes and included the ideas of others that capitalize on the ability.

Since you clearly haven't read most of the thread whatever, only comparison was teleport vs switch teleport but ill post here too.

 

I think the shadowclone idea is bad, 1 this isn't naruto 2 I dont want an instant nuke, im perfectly fine with the current ~15 second teleport duration.

 

Shuriken: Functionally the same but it has a (%) chance to add a ? second long debuff of: Fire, Poison, Confusion, Blindness, Movement speed reduction, or inability to attack. I got all my ideas for real life uses of the shuriken according to Wikipedia. (still 500 dmg)

 

Smokescreen: Its fine as is, don't fix it if it isn't broke

 

Teleport: Make it free target, no reason for the arbitrary target restriction and keeps this ability out of builds or in the useless category. Teleport to behind instead of infront of enemies,when enemies are targeted, because that makes more sense.

 

Bladestorm: Make targeting dynamic. (targets are picked one at a time not at the start, gets rid of the enemies dying before you hit them problem) Also, add a confusion debuff to the 20M circle around first target, lasts the duration of bladestorm, or an aggro buff to ash (like absorb) so bladestorm also ties up enemies around the targets. A ninja warping around killing people probably would be cause for pause, or panic; it being ignored makes little to no sense. It adds CC that Ash lacks and gives a reason for teams to want to have an Ash. (please don't bring up teleports 1 target 2 second stun and smokescreens stagger as CC, no one values stuns that are to short to be useful)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Rabidbluedeath

[olipops]

+1

[Wiegraf]

I think the shadowclone idea is bad, 1 this isn't naruto 2 I dont want an instant nuke, im perfectly fine with the current ~15 second teleport duration.

 

It's not a matter of "Naruto".... hell, I didn't even think about it when I came up with that idea. But the fact that you are taken out of combat for 15 or so seconds and unable to respond to changes in a situation means that the use of the ability is next to useless.

 

As I mentionned into another post, the problem with Blade Storm is that whenever you use it, the thought that crosses your mind isn't how many enemies you'll take out of combat but instead how long YOU will be taken out of combat due to the exertly long 'cutscene' of the ability. Hence, the idea to limit the number of 'cuts' to 3 or 4 while letting Ash clones perform the move on other targets simultaneously.

 

This makes it so the animations are still used but you aren't caught in 15 seconds of idleness with no mean to respond to an objective being attacked or an ally being downed while the power is active. If need be, to avoid 'nuke spam' of Blade Storm, the damage of the skill could be lowered to compensate for the ability to cast it more often.

 

As it stands now, it's more beneficial to unequip Blade Storm and slot in another mod. While it's not "Silence" level of uselessness, the drawbacks makes it more crippling than useful in any intense situation which, by Warframe standard, is 75% of the time.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Wiegraf

[Rabidbluedeath]

It's not a matter of "Naruto".... hell, I didn't even think about it when I came up with that idea. But the fact that you are taken out of combat for 15 or so seconds and unable to respond to changes in a situation means that the use of the ability is next to useless.

 

As I mentionned into another post, the problem with Blade Storm is that whenever you use it, the thought that crosses your mind isn't how many enemies you'll take out of combat but instead how long YOU will be taken out of combat due to the exertly long 'cutscene' of the ability. Hence, the idea to limit the number of 'cuts' to 3 or 4 while letting Ash clones perform the move on other targets simultaneously.

 

This makes it so the animations are still used but you aren't caught in 15 seconds of idleness with no mean to respond to an objective being attacked or an ally being downed while the power is active. If need be, to avoid 'nuke spam' of Blade Storm, the damage of the skill could be lowered to compensate for the ability to cast it more often.

 

As it stands now, it's more beneficial to unequip Blade Storm and slot in another mod. While it's not "Silence" level of uselessness, the drawbacks makes it more crippling than useful in any intense situation which, by Warframe standard, is 75% of the time.

The "man I'm going to be out of combat for 15 seconds" has never crossed my mind, and I main Ash.

 

Using the animations is near worthless if the entire point of 90% of the bladestorm "tweaks" are reducing its time. We might aswell just make it an insta-nuke that just does damage to 15 at once. Your not the only player on the team either. there are 3 other people that can help when a pod is being attacked (what is ash gonna do at that point anyway, he has no CC abilities) and still 2 other frames that can revive the downed ally. How long does bleed out usually take anyway? Further more that 15 seconds makes you completely invulnerable, its a very nice panic button. Lowering the damage on a damage based skill that already doesn't scale well is the most horrible tweak I have heard yet, It makes it useless that much faster. Your "tweak" is to essentially turn Bladestorm into Radial Javelin. (3.5 second cast time for 15 targets is exactly the same time as Radial Javelin) How many people love Radial Javelin and sing its praises? Pretty sure next to no one, because there aren't any. 

 

The shortening of bladestorm would add nothing to Ash, or his utility. It is simply something some people choose to see as a deficiency and complain about it instead of trying to actually improve Ash's utility and value as a team member. Which is the problem I actually try to address with my tweaks.

 

Edit: Also what could you add in bladestorms place that is more useful? Power? Your not going to shuriken enemies so no. Range? Well that doesn't affect any of his abilities positively so no again. Efficiency would be nice I guess? Wait no, fleeting expertise would lower smokescreen duration, so probably not that either. (which by the way would be the ONLY ability left, if your removing bladestorm for space you should already have gotten rid of teleport and shuriken) So duration then? It's a definite possibility, but you should already have some duration set anyway so not that helpful. So what, Warm Coat? Diamond Skin?  

Edited January 16, 2014 by Rabidbluedeath

[Nox-Lamina]

-snipe-

 

 It however has crossed my mind and the minds of several other players, when I used to use bladestorm I would often want it to end midway because it was taking too long. Also false equivalency fallacy. Just because they have similar cast times with similar amounts of targets doesn't make them the same. The javelins are not guaranteed to hit and do not necessarily do consistent damage due to it being a 3 way split between physical types. Bladestorm ALWAYS does 2,000 damage to an enemy. Even if the enemy has 10,000 HP that is 1/5th off of it. 

 

Ash has no CC abilities and you propose not to change smoke screen which with the proposals mentioned would let it be used consistently and possibly confuse all enemies in a 10m radius like a real smoke screen would. You can't say a proposal  to help you defend a pod won't work because a frame has no CC abilities and then shoot down a proposed CC addition.

 

While bladestorm may act as a good panic button the ability to turn invisible coupled with a radial stun is easily a great panic button, it also costs significantly less than bladestorm.

 

And yes you could put power in bladestorm's place, it could in theory increase the confusion/stun time of the improved smoke screen and increase the bleed damage proc'd and the damage of the improved shuriken. Oh wow what a little imagination does to take a skill away and give the player even more utility.

 

Also Maximized range boosts the range of Smoke screen from 10m to 23.5m, max range increases the area in which Ash selects targets for Bladestorm from 20m to 47m. Please do some research before running your mouth. And do not mention that the corrupted mods have drawbacks this is just to illustrate that you were wrong about range mods not affecting Ash's abilities.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[Rabidbluedeath]

 It however has crossed my mind and the minds of several other players, when I used to use bladestorm I would often want it to end midway because it was taking too long. Also false equivalency fallacy. Just because they have similar cast times with similar amounts of targets doesn't make them the same. The javelins are not guaranteed to hit and do not necessarily do consistent damage due to it being a 3 way split between physical types. Bladestorm ALWAYS does 2,000 damage to an enemy. Even if the enemy has 10,000 HP that is 1/5th off of it. 

 

While bladestorm may act as a good panic button the ability to turn invisible coupled with a radial stun is easily a great panic button, it also costs significantly less than bladestorm.

 

And yes you could put power in bladestorm's place, it could in theory increase the confusion/stun time of the improved smoke screen and increase the bleed damage proc'd and the damage of the improved shuriken. Oh wow what a little imagination does to take a skill away and give the player even more utility.

 

Also Maximized range boosts the range of Smoke screen from 10m to 23.5m, max range increases the area in which Ash selects targets for Bladestorm from 20m to 47m. Please do some research before running your mouth. And do not mention that the corrupted mods have drawbacks this is just to illustrate that you were wrong about range mods not affecting Ash's abilities.

Ok well lets see, he said nerf damage and didn't give an amount. So you can't use the counter point to his point and say 2000 damage. Bladestorm may also not hit targets due to people killing them before you get there. (regardless of which kind of bladestorm, yours or mine) It was also to point out that no one wants an instant-or near instant nuke with 15 targets. I think the comparison was actually rather spot on.

 

The turning invisible part is a great panic button sure, but your still affected by AoE. That stagger is worthless in my opinion, yes opinion.

 

He said "As it stands now..." not "If smokescreen did...." so that counter point is completely irrelevant to what I said.

 

Also, I don't care about smokescreens stagger, so its range and the 1 second stagger are irrelevant to me. This was also under current smokescreen conditions since its part of the "As it stands now". Not to mention bladestorm wouldn't be there to receive the range buff as that whole paragraph was what you would add in bladestorms place. So in closing completely irrelevant to what I said. But since we are talking about corrupted mods if the 15 seconds is that big of a deal use a max narrowminded to decrease the radius to 6.8 and aim for the edges of groups.

 

Did you even read what I quoted and counter-pointed on? It doesn't seem like it, and I'm not trying to be rude that's just my only conclusion.

 

Ash has no CC abilities and you propose not to change smoke screen which with the proposals mentioned would let it be used consistently and possibly confuse all enemies in a 10m radius like a real smoke screen would. You can't say a proposal  to help you defend a pod won't work because a frame has no CC abilities and then shoot down a proposed CC addition.

 

Shuriken: Functionally the same but it has a (%) chance to add a ? second long debuff of: Fire, Poison, Confusion, Blindness, Movement speed reduction, or inability to attack. I got all my ideas for real life uses of the shuriken according to Wikipedia. (still 500 dmg)

 

Bladestorm: Make targeting dynamic. (targets are picked one at a time not at the start, gets rid of the enemies dying before you hit them problem) Also, add a confusion debuff to the 20M circle around first target, lasts the duration of bladestorm, or an aggro buff to ash (like absorb) so bladestorm also ties up enemies around the targets. A ninja warping around killing people probably would be cause for pause, or panic; it being ignored makes little to no sense. It adds CC that Ash lacks and gives a reason for teams to want to have an Ash. (please don't bring up teleports 1 target 2 second stun and smokescreens stagger as CC, no one values stuns that are to short to be useful)

 

Yep your right I never suggested CC ability additions ever.... Except for the 66% of the suggestions I gave earlier. But in the interest of being fair how long would your 15 energy recast smokebomb confuse and damage for? Would it make the ability to strong for the current 35 energy cost? I assume it would, and I kind of like the 35 energy cost. But maybe it wont, I can't really tell until you give ballpark estimates to the duration and damage. I think smokescreen is the 1 ability that Ash has that works perfectly, that's why I don't think it needs changed.

 

Do you have nothing to say about my changes? Did you even read them the first time beyond smokescreen? Did you read them this time? Again not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious because that's what it seems like. I fully supported stuns for shuriken, and gave ideas that would actually be cool/useful. And I think your teleport tweak is great, its 99% similar to what I said. I suggested giving Ash's Ult a useful CC that takes advantage of the uniqueness of his Ult and that would also be useful to a team, not just speeding up the damage dealt.

 

I seriously get the impression both Nox-Lamina and Wiegraf only read the disagreements I have with their ideas, not what I suggest as other possible solutions. As that is all they seem to quote, and focus on. If that's not the case my apologizes, but you can't blame me for getting that impression based on events so far. 

[SpectreWolfe]

As an Ash Warframer, I personally liked the idea of Wiegraf to hasten the process of BladeStorm just because of one factor in game; KILL STEAL.

 

I get pissed when Ash paints his targets only to have it killed in the process by the ubers of your team mates. It wastes your hard earned 100 energy points to just being able to kill 1-2. (for those that haven't forma-d their aura slot yet)

 

It would be great to be able to maximize the skill without interruption.

 

I also have a suggestion of my own:

 

How about keep the current Bladestorm but make the targeted enemies invulnerable to other damage except to Ash's until they get killed or hit by Bladestorm. Only then can they be killed by others.

 

Also, how about making Bladestorm being able to hit an enemy for up to a maximum of 3 times. Example: There are 5 enemies. Ash can hit them with Bladestorm for up to 3 times each alternating just to maximize the 15 targets of the skill.

 

Compared to the other ubers that can kill 20-30 at a time, I can say that these suggestions aren't OP at all. It will make Ash utilize the title of assassin / ninja of the game and can make him adept at plucking out certain baddies from afar for the team.

 

It's my suggestion. 

[Scar.Heart]

Thoughts on Shuriken suggestion:

I agree with the latter suggestion more than the former. Not to say I fully support it, but it's closer to what Ash needs.

I would also suggest adding innate silence to this modification, giving Ash a slight edge in stealth situations.

He will be allowed to deal tremendous damage in one shot, without giving away his position. This would be a start on helping him fulfill the stealth role he is advertised to be.

(Personally, I'd go for a full rework of the skills, but this is fine for the time being)

 

Thoughts on Smoke Bomb suggestion:

No.

To elaborate, it would be a massive waste of energy.

Any other frame could blast a CC and do the job. (May even kill everything rather than stun)

Even in stealth situations, using Smoke Bomb while already invisible is a waste, as there's little need to stun enemies who are not alarmed.

If there's any change this skill needs, I would recommend a simple tweak that allows Ash to cast while crouching instead of constantly standing up to use it. This way, if you're behind lower cover in stealth or combat situations, you do not have to expose yourself to cast it. (prevents being shot, and prevents giving away position in stealth situations)

Overall, I'd recommend not touching this skill until Ash's other abilities are properly treated.

 

Thoughts on Teleport:

I'd prefer Teleport to deal damage. The following is a version I created, recently modified to fit 2.0 damage.

Original Post

(Modified for damage 2.0)

Teleport

Ash teleports 25/45/45/50 meters to an enemy target and strikes them, dealing 300/450/600/750 damage. Living targets recieve a 1/1/2/3 second stun. [innate Silence] [stun] [Effected by Power Strength and similar mods]

- Teleport deals Impact/Puncture/Slash damage

 

- Upon teleporting behind his selected target, Ash draws the blades from his arms and strikes the enemy. A small, 1-2 second animation plays out (similar to those of Bladestorm).

 

- Successfully killing the target with Teleport will not alert any enemies.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt at killing the target will yield a 1/1/2/3 second stun, giving Ash the opportunity to perform a melee stealth attack (or use of silenced guns). [Not effected by mods] (target will be alert if still alive after stun recovery) (Stunned enemy will have colored linging, decided by the Energy palette your Ash has equipped)

 

- An unsuccessful attempt on killing the target will alert enemies within a 10 meter radius on all mod levels. [Not effected by mods]

 

- Stun works on all armored units. Stealth Attack retains all current limitations.

 

- Stealth attack does not apply to bosses. Stun does not effect heavy bosses. (Phorid, J3 Golem, Kela)

 

- Ash cannot teleport to Allies

 

- You do not gain the stealth attack opportunity on alert enemies, only stun.

 

Thoughts on Blade Storm:

Wiegraf's suggestion suits best imo.

I suppose Ash does need a panic button when/if his cover is blown.

This sounds fine.

 

Overall thoughts on Ash:

He doesn't need a buff. He needs a rework, along with stealth gameplay.

Ash is advertised as stealth (in-game description), and cannot meet that role.

However, seeing as the community is fine with him being nothing more than another damage dealer, perhaps I should just suggest an actual stealth frame...But that's another post for another time.

 

 

[Nox-Lamina]

Snipe

 

I treat you like someone who is being rude because you are being rude and do not listen to me or anyone. You came in my thread telling me there is another thread that I don't want to take part in and bring the hostility of that thread in here.

 

If you wanted me to see you as anything but a nuisance you would have come with your suggestions first not, hey your thread is irrelevant come talk in this other thread. You plainly said that range doesn't impact Ash's abilities, you were wrong I pointed that out. I said do not bring up the negative effects of corrupted mods I was only pointing out that you were wrong and didn't want to calculate the non-maxed figures, you bring them up anyway. This is why I have problems taking you seriously

 

I never said you didn't propose CC additions,  I said you said it wouldn't work because Ash  has no CC powers and you shot down the CC ideas mentioned earlier (that weren't your own) Another example of you not listening to me.

 

He also said if need be it should be nerfed. Oh wow you don't listen to him either.

 

I never said that the recast smoke bomb will damage I said it strength mods should increase the stun time, again about you not listening. I will readjust for taking the radiation proc more seriously and give something more substantial than 15.

 

 

Magnus I will mention that stealth is entirely broken right now and these suggestions were given under the idea of Ash being a Stealthier frame rather than a stealth frame, mixing damage dealing abilities with stealth. I like your ideas under the context of a game with a strong stealth focus however DE has failed to deliver on that.

 

I disagree with your thoughts on smokescreen because I'd like it to act like an actual smoke screen, other frames will do crowd control better than Ash, but adding on something to make it a  real smokescreen + invisibility rather than the radial stiff breeze + invisibility that we have currently.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[Scar.Heart]

Magnus I will mention that stealth is entirely broken right now and these suggestions were given under the idea of Ash being a Stealthier frame rather than a stealth frame, mixing damage dealing abilities with stealth. I like your ideas under the context of a game with a strong stealth focus however DE has failed to deliver on that.

 

a. Just slapping innate silence on his shuriken (with the latter suggestion) would help him be stealthier, if not a complete stealth frame. Changing TP into a type of stealth attack could contribute, although most would simply like it to be a mobility ability.

He'd have a skill(s) unlike anybody else's, as it could be used to damage/kill enemies without causing alarm.

 

b. I'm aware of DE's utter failure to deliver on stealth gameplay. I merely suggest in the false hopes that they will bring it up to par with open combat.

...As well as having Ash meet his description. It's simply something I cannot let go of, whatever the reason may be.

 

Apologies if I misunderstood anything.

Edited January 17, 2014 by MagnusFury

[Rabidbluedeath]

-snip-

So I come to this thread stating that there are currently 2 threads doing the same thing on the front page and ask we combine them so we have more ideas in one thread and I'm the bad guy? How am I being hostile. Not agreeing with (some) of your ideas and putting forth my own isn't hostility it's discussion. If I were being hostile I would call you names and just call your ideas bad and not put forth anything to the discussion.

 

If I came in with my original suggestions first it would have defeated the point of trying to get more people talking about the same thing in one place not two different ones. I never said this topic was irrelevant, if I did I wouldn't have asked to combine them. Your range affecting bladestorm was in reference to an area of discussion were bladestorm is not present to be affected. I state that and you just get angry at me again? Smokescreen was there but you get angry and just refuse to hear my side? That's hostility.

 

Again yes he said "if need be" but a 3-4 second 15 target ability that costs 100 energy and deals 30,000 damage isn't going to fly when radial javelin is 3.5 seconds 15 target for 100 energy and only does 15,000. I'm going to assume DE would nerf the damage with the changes proposed by Wiegraf. I did listen, and made what I think is a common sense balance call. I also put forth my own bladestorm idea that was pretty much completely ignored and only got replies about why I'm wrong about his idea. Not even nice replies asking what I don't like about it.

 

I apologize, I assumed it would do radiation damage based on how it was worded. I still have no clue how long this stun would be and if the cost is worth it. Given that I would be re-casting smokescreen specifically for it in some instances I would like to get an idea. I'm also somewhat worried your idea would be considered too strong for a 35 energy ability and would be bumped to 50 energy. Then Smokescreen and Invisibility would be the same cost but shorter invisibility duration for Ash. That is literally the only reason I don't like it.

 

That's fine if you disagree with my thoughts on it. lets talk about different ideas for his abilities and see if we can't find something we both like. Ash has no cc, that's completely correct. Something I tried to fix with my bladestorm and shuriken suggestions. I would rather add utility and CC to bladestorm than speed it up so it loses its uniqueness and functions like a standard #4. I'm not trying to be hostile. All I'm trying to do is voice my opinion and offer different solutions. But its kind of hard not to get defensive when my disagreements are the only thing being focused on, not what my other solutions are.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Rabidbluedeath

[Drazhar14]

TL;DR

Give Shuriken stun. Make 2nd mode that has 3x headshot multiplier and 3m pierce. 100% chance to bleed proc on both

 

Smoke Screen: Let  it be recast while invisible at a reduced cost and possibly give radiation style proc

 

Teleport: Ensure reliability. Make free aim if possible

 

Bladestorm: Clones + Ash do killing, make it significantly faster. Make it focus on the toughest enemies first.

 

If people find this overpowering, I am not suggesting  that the suggestions should be implemented in their entirety.

 

 

Shuriken: I agree it should have stun back. At higher levels when it's damage is minimal, at least it will still have utility. Same goes for Nova's Null Star no longer stunning enemies anymore. 

 

Smoke Screen: It would be nice to be able to recast abilities before they run out for all warframes. However, I think the cost should remain the same. Ash's smokescreen already has utility with the stun, invisibility, and melee damage boost. Giving it radiation effects would be a bit overpowered. 

 

Teleport: Free targeting would be really nice. 

 

Bladestorm: The idea of ninja shadow clones helping you out to kill faster is actually really cool! Would be awesome being in a party with an Ash and seeing him make shadow doubles. 

 

I think Ash needs a buff, and these ideas are pretty good. 

[Nox-Lamina]

Bringing back up this post, and thanks Drazhar, hopefully someone important sees them and deems them worth consideration.