What About The Lato Vandal?

[Tyrian3k]

Since this isn't my topic about balancing, I won't disagree or agree with you yet, but could you present some data or reasoning behind why the Lato Vandal has very low DPS and lower than the normal Lato? So I could actually have something to note down, instead of just taking your word for it?

 

(out of topic I have always believed the Lato Vandal to having higher DPS than the Lato, that's why I'm asking this of you and I think most people have the same perspective as me on that. Lato Vandal DPS>Lato DPS)

 

 

Lato Vandal: 30*5=150

Lato: 24*6.7=160.8

 

Comparison to other weapons:

Akbolto: 25*10=250

Braton: 20*11.3=226

 

Can't see how the Lato Vandal is a high DPS weapon...

[FateZero]

Lato Vandal: 30*5=150

Lato: 24*6.7=160.8

 

Comparison to other weapons:

Akbolto: 25*10=250

Braton: 20*11.3=226

 

Can't see how the Lato Vandal is a high DPS weapon...

Did you account for accuracy, critical chance, reload, clip size, etc?

What about the Lex then? 70*1.1 is only 77, nearly half the DPS of Lato Vandal according to how you calculate DPS. Since you're comparing addition weapons.

Until you provide much better DPS calculation, I cannot take your opinion into consideration sadly.

Edited May 6, 2013 by FateZero

[uniqueman23]

Imo the lato vandal is overpowered. It's by far the strongest pistol ingame, outclassing the LEX at 1-shotting and even the akbolto due to it be a lot more flexible. With high level mods, the lato vandal has almost comparable dps to a highly modded braton (due to pistol mods being stronger). The lato vandal right now has the stats and mods the latron should have.

lol the lato vandal does not come close to out perfoming my lex

[Ced23Ric]

I like my options, is what I am going to say here. Sticking to one loadout seems awfully limiting.

[FateZero]

I like my options, is what I am going to say here. Sticking to one loadout seems awfully limiting.

So would you personally say if there were more options for primary weapons, the issue about the Braton Vandal wouldn't have came up?

If what I think your saying is that, since there are more options for secondary weapons, even if one weapon is a direct upgrade to another that it's fine and shouldn't changed and/or that there are better options than the Lato Vandal? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I just want to clarify and elaborate on your opinion Ced23Ric. 

lolcat meow.

[Tetsmeha]

Because lato style pistols are not popular in the current weapon loadout metagame. People have used Bratons since CBT because it's a viable option. If they made a Burston vandal that was worse than the Burston no one would complain about it because no one uses it.

 

Personally I've used the Lato Vandal and like it, but it's just not the best or popular.

[FateZero]

Because lato style pistols are not popular in the current weapon loadout metagame. People have used Bratons since CBT because it's a viable option. If they made a Burston vandal that was worse than the Burston no one would complain about it because no one uses it.

 

Personally I've used the Lato Vandal and like it, but it's just not the best or popular.

Noted: So should guns that are unpopular be left out of balancing? Should guns only be changed if people whine about them enough?

[Tetsmeha]

Noted: So should guns that are unpopular be left out of balancing? Should guns only be changed if people whine about them enough?

 

How are you inferring that out of my post? My post was a response to your only question in the OP, asking why no one complained about the lato and it's vandal counterpart.

 

Guns won't ever be changed because people complain. It's just the dev's find those threads more popular and actually read through some of them. They might just miss the threads about unpopular guns.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Tetsmeha

[MEsoJD]

 Lato Vandal is a special gift for the work people put in closed beta(like myself). Being in open beta, I'm sure you'll get things unattainable to others down the road. Let's keep the weapons appeal. There are also many great alternatives. The Braton Vandal flew over my head, but I'm still perfectly content. Chill and have a beer. :D

[FateZero]

How are you inferring that out of my post? My post was a response to your only question in the OP, asking why no one complained about the lato and it's vandal counterpart.

 

Guns won't ever be changed because people complain. It's just the dev's find those threads more popular and actually read through some of them. They might just miss the threads about unpopular guns.

How I inferred it, I don't know, I just did. My mind is weird like that, those question just popped into my head when reading your post.

However I did note it because you did answer the question, but I asked those question to elaborate and expand on what you posted.

I won't outright disagree with you, but I'll just ask you this. Do you think the Braton buff was planned ahead of time and the thread complaining about the Braton Vandal vs Braton had no influence on their decision to buff the Braton to the Braton Vandal stats?

 

 Lato Vandal is a special gift for the work people put in closed beta(like myself). Being in open beta, I'm sure you'll get things unattainable to others down the road. Let's keep the weapons appeal. There are also many great alternatives. The Braton Vandal flew over my head, but I'm still perfectly content. Chill and have a beer. :D

Wasn't really what I was looking for a opinion about the Lato Vandal vs Lato, but I'll note it anyways, because it is a opinion about the Lato Vandal itself.

But I must ask you this, what about the Lato Vandal appeals to you? Is it the stats, how it fires, look, exclusiveness, etc, or any combination of them?

[Tetsmeha]

How I inferred it, I don't know, I just did. My mind is weird like that, those question just popped into my head when reading your post.

However I did note it because you did answer the question, but I asked those question to elaborate and expand on what you posted.

I won't outright disagree with you, but I'll just ask you this. Do you think the Braton buff was planned ahead of time and the thread complaining about the Braton Vandal vs Braton had no influence on their decision to buff the Braton to the Braton Vandal stats?

 

If anything DE skewed the numbers according to their descriptions. Before they all made sense but the Vandal was obviously more powerful than the Braton because of the large gap in base damage compared to their base fire rates. I'd say the thread complaining definitely influenced the changes, but most likely the dev's decision to make the base damage the same so people won't complain about anything being Pay2win or just being lucky during the release of the vandal.

[FateZero]

If anything DE skewed the numbers according to their descriptions. Before they all made sense but the Vandal was obviously more powerful than the Braton because of the large gap in base damage compared to their base fire rates. I'd say the thread complaining definitely influenced the changes, but most likely the dev's decision to make the base damage the same so people won't complain about anything being Pay2win or just being lucky during the release of the vandal.

Now in your previous post you said I'll quote "Guns won't ever be changed because people complain." but in this post you said "I'd say the thread complaining definitely influenced the changes" Now you can argue that it those are not the same things, but even if the decision to change it was already set, how much it changes was influenced by the complains, would you say so?

 

Now I know you didn't fully answer the question asked, maybe because I wasn't being clear or specific enough but "was the change planned ahead of time before the complains started to arise about the gun?" and If it was planned ahead of time because there was such a "large gap in base damage" why wasn't the Lato changed to reduce the 6 points in base damage gap between it and the Lato Vandal? Was it because the Braton was popular or was it maybe because people complained about the Braton vs Braton Vandal more than the Lato Vandal vs Lato? Your last two statements could also apply to the Lato Vandal could they not? The Lato Vandal was for those who are lucky enough to be in CB and it came with its own slot and catalyst.

Edited May 6, 2013 by FateZero

[Ced23Ric]

So would you personally say if there were more options for primary weapons, the issue about the Braton Vandal wouldn't have came up?

If what I think your saying is that, since there are more options for secondary weapons, even if one weapon is a direct upgrade to another that it's fine and shouldn't changed and/or that there are better options than the Lato Vandal? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I just want to clarify and elaborate on your opinion Ced23Ric. 

lolcat meow.

 

Meow.

I think that the Lato Vandal is an option. It's a cool keepsake for CBT players, and it gives you a harder hitting variant of the weapon you started with. Nostalgic value. On a personal note, I quite liked the entire concept of having a a throwback to where I started off. The Vandal series, at least for me, are slower, harder-hitting variants for stock gear, marksman versions if you will. Since I am not a huge fan of the semi pistols anyway, a slower firing one is quite up to my liking - I don't like click orgies.

 

As for the issue: It's a perception thing. If the BraV would've been called Luxon, had a different model, no comparision to the Braton would have happened, Gorgon/Hek/etc. lovers would have stayed their course and touted their preferred guns as the best™ and no one would have cried. Maybe some people would have lamented that the Luxon isn't the strongest rifle in the park, but whatever, that'd be general misery not accredited to buff/nerf/balance woes. But it's not, it's the BraV, for the same reasons as the LaV - enjoy a throwback to your roots, now in special colours with a cool decal.

 

If that is isn't good enough, maybe people are too serious for a game. :)

 

My 2.14757 Albanian Lek*

 

[size=2]* conversion from US$ as of mid-market rates: 2013-05-06 09:53 UTC[/size]

[MEsoJD]

Woo I got put on the wall!!! I feel so special :3

[Tetsmeha]

Now in your previous post you said I'll quote "Guns won't ever be changed because people complain." but in this post you said "I'd say the thread complaining definitely influenced the changes" Now you can argue that it those are not the same things, but even if the decision to change it was already set, how much it changes was influenced by the complains, would you say so?

 

Sorry for being unclear about what I said. What I meant was that complaining won't be the reason for changing anything. But complaint threads can be used by the devs as feedback for they should be changing soon. It's like those threads complaining about bosses being boring. They're acknowledged but not used to justify changes in their bug fix or update schedule.

[Tyrian3k]

Did you account for accuracy, critical chance, reload, clip size, etc?

What about the Lex then? 70*1.1 is only 77, nearly half the DPS of Lato Vandal according to how you calculate DPS. Since you're comparing addition weapons.

Until you provide much better DPS calculation, I cannot take your opinion into consideration sadly.

 

Formula: (base damage * clipsize * (1 + (critchance*critdamage))) / (time per clip + relaod time)

 

If you can give me a formula that calculates accuracy into DPS I'd be happy to use it.

 

Lato: 109

Lato Vandal: 115

Lato Prime: 123 (don't forget to complain about this one being totally OP please)

Akbolto: 138

Braton: 146

Afuris: 160

 

Notes: This formula doesn't include the fact that the Akbolto ignores most damage reductions by armor etc. and it also disregards the fact that semi-automatics can't fire at full speed without a macro.

 

If this this doesn't statisfy you, then you might try calculating it yourself.

 

I think this discussion is quite hilarious, because just as the MK1-Braton and the Skana the Lato is a beginner weapon and thus not supposed to be a top-end weapon.

[FateZero]

Formula: (base damage * clipsize * (1 + (critchance*critdamage))) / (time per clip + relaod time)

 

If you can give me a formula that calculates accuracy into DPS I'd be happy to use it.

 

Lato: 109

Lato Vandal: 115

Lato Prime: 123 (don't forget to complain about this one being totally OP please)

Akbolto: 138

Braton: 146

Afuris: 160

 

Notes: This formula doesn't include the fact that the Akbolto ignores most damage reductions by armor etc. and it also disregards the fact that semi-automatics can't fire at full speed without a macro.

 

If this this doesn't statisfy you, then you might try calculating it yourself.

 

I think this discussion is quite hilarious, because just as the MK1-Braton and the Skana the Lato is a beginner weapon and thus not supposed to be a top-end weapon.

And with this sentence "(don't forget to complain about this one being totally OP please)" you completely lost track of the point of this topic or you never saw the true point of the topic in the first place.

 

"If this this doesn't satisfy you, then you might try calculating it yourself." This will do, thank you for the input, I was just looking for a more detailed DPS instead of the simple damage*fire rate. Which did puts the Lato above the Lato Vandal but as you just stated with the new calculations, the Lato is below the Lato Vandal in DPS.

 

"I think this discussion is quite hilarious, because just as the MK1-Braton and the Skana the Lato is a beginner weapon and thus not supposed to be a top-end weapon." I'm glad you think this is funny, but who said anything about top-end weapons? I didn't call for a nerf or buff to the Lato or Lato Vandal.

[Ced23Ric]

Did my answer satisfiy your curiousity, Fate?

[CheeseHasLeafs]

Honestly, I don't know why people were complaining about the Braton Vandal in the first place. It wasn't the best rifle out there. Certainly it was better than the standard Braton, but so were many other guns. The Boltor was better than the Braton, if harder to obtain and aim. 

And come on, the Braton cost 10,000cr in the Market. What did you expect from it? It was a nice allrounder to begin with, which is pretty good for 10,000cr. 

 

I don't believe there's any one reason people don't complain about the Lato Vandal. Perhaps because it's somewhat underrated, or because akimbo pistols are vastly preferred to single pistols. Personally I like it, as it's an allrounder with good damage, fire rate and accuracy. Generally though people used more specialized secondaries, going for fire rate (viper, akimbo pistols etc.) or high damage (Lex, Kraken). Also people tend to like to complement their primary with their secondary, and using an allrounder isn't as effective as using something that more easily remedies the deficiencies of your primary. 

[FateZero]

Did my answer satisfiy your curiousity, Fate?

Whoops forgot to address your post, got distracted elsewhere, now I don't remember what I was going to respond with, but yes, I'll add it to the notes. Sorry Meow

 

 

Honestly, I don't know why people were complaining about the Braton Vandal in the first place. It wasn't the best rifle out there. Certainly it was better than the standard Braton, but so were many other guns. The Boltor was better than the Braton, if harder to obtain and aim. 

And come on, the Braton cost 10,000cr in the Market. What did you expect from it? It was a nice allrounder to begin with, which is pretty good for 10,000cr. 

 

I don't believe there's any one reason people don't complain about the Lato Vandal. Perhaps because it's somewhat underrated, or because akimbo pistols are vastly preferred to single pistols. Personally I like it, as it's an allrounder with good damage, fire rate and accuracy. Generally though people used more specialized secondaries, going for fire rate (viper, akimbo pistols etc.) or high damage (Lex, Kraken). Also people tend to like to complement their primary with their secondary, and using an allrounder isn't as effective as using something that more easily remedies the deficiencies of your primary. 

That is one of the answers I'm seeking, "why people were complaining about the Braton Vandal".

Now this point seems to have been coming up, but it would seem if more primary weapons were available and comparable then people wouldn't have complained so much about the Braton Vandal, like no ones has complained about the Lato Vandal, because there are more options than the Lato Vandal.

 

Interesting and thank you for your opinion, will note.

[Tyrian3k]

And with this sentence "(don't forget to complain about this one being totally OP please)" you completely lost track of the point of this topic or you never saw the true point of the topic in the first place.

 

"If this this doesn't satisfy you, then you might try calculating it yourself." This will do, thank you for the input, I was just looking for a more detailed DPS instead of the simple damage*fire rate. Which did puts the Lato above the Lato Vandal but as you just stated with the new calculations, the Lato is below the Lato Vandal in DPS.

 

"I think this discussion is quite hilarious, because just as the MK1-Braton and the Skana the Lato is a beginner weapon and thus not supposed to be a top-end weapon." I'm glad you think this is funny, but who said anything about top-end weapons? I didn't call for a nerf or buff to the Lato or Lato Vandal.

 

I lost track of it, but that's because I already said my statement on the topic in my first post here. That note on the Lato Prime was purely sarcastic.

 

 

Just to clarify the statement in said post: "Nobody will complain about weapons that are barely in use."

 

 

It all works like this:

gun X is inferior to most guns in the game ---> nobody uses gun X ---> nobody complains about gun X being inferior ---> DE doesn't see any complaints about gun X ---> DE doesn't buff gun X ---> repeat from the beginning

 

Even if people start a discussion about it, that thread will usually die because of a lack of interest.

 

Best example for that type of gun is the Burston, which has been an inferior weapon in all the time I've been playing Warframe, maybe even since the launch of the game.

 

Lack of feedback for a gun is an indicator for it being unpopular. No gun is unpopular for no reason at all, which essentially means that it lacks something. What it lacks is usually viability in the average combat situation.

[Ced23Ric]

It all works like this:

gun X is inferior to most guns in the game ---> nobody uses gun X ---> nobody complains about gun X being inferior ---> DE doesn't see any complaints about gun X ---> DE doesn't buff gun X ---> repeat from the beginning

 

It does not work like this, at all.

 

DE is keeping track of use metrics and knows which weapon is used and which one is not. When the Boltor was hands-down OP and everywhere, they could extrapolate this from those metrics, just as the Hek and the Gorgon in their respective times. Same goes for the Braton buff.

[FateZero]

It does not work like this, at all.

 

DE is keeping track of use metrics and knows which weapon is used and which one is not. When the Boltor was hands-down OP and everywhere, they could extrapolate this from those metrics, just as the Hek and the Gorgon in their respective times. Same goes for the Braton buff.

Interesting, will note and use, when thinking about the previous balance changes made. I can see why the sniptron was buffed now, but now I wonder if the Braton was really that unused. However that would make the Lato very unused in that sense, so why not buff to it? Maybe then again it is a starter weapon so...I'm going in circles.

[Tyrian3k]

It does not work like this, at all.

 

DE is keeping track of use metrics and knows which weapon is used and which one is not. When the Boltor was hands-down OP and everywhere, they could extrapolate this from those metrics, just as the Hek and the Gorgon in their respective times. Same goes for the Braton buff.

 

All those guns do not fit the case I described there. I'm talking about unused and unpopular guns, which is the opposite of what you describe, because all those guns are quite popular or at least have been popular at some point.

 

DE didn't do anything significant about the Burston in ages despite it being at the bottom of the popularity ranking for as long as it exists.

 

Maybe they fear that the Burston will invade the Latron's territory if it gets buffed, but the Latron isn't really popular either.

[Ced23Ric]

The Burston was recently buffed, was it not..?