Trinity - A Community Discussion On A Reasonable Nerf

[Kobalt]

Why make this thread?

There was an enormous fallout after the Rhino nerf. In my personal opinion, I believe this was due a lack of communication between DE and the community. People are heavily invested into their frames and this was kind of a one-sided compromise. I believe that if at the very least people had the chance to express their concerns and ideas, it would've been a lot less of an eventful change.

Do I agree with the idea of a need for a nerf?

Kinda, more so in the case for Trinity than for Rhino. Before now I thought the idea of invincibility wasn't that big an issue as others obviously did. Not having played a frame that could before the Rhino nerf, it never bothered me when allies became invincible as it usually served a purpose [reviving me or dealing with enemies I had lots of trouble with given my frame]. I also saw these abilities as a delineator for the game's skill cap. Not everyone plays the game all that well and I thought it was ok to have skills like this to help the players who needed it. This aside, DE didn't see it that way. Though I don't agree with it, I do understand it and more importantly have faith in DE's decisions!

Is there a chance that Trinty will be nerfed?

Probably. If you see invincibility as issue then the real problem is that as a game mechanic it have infinite defensive scaling. It is very hard to balance infinite as a concept, it is also a very easy way to invite power creep into your game [iE: Making situations that challenge a player who becomes invincible makes the same situation incredibly difficult for players who cannot and introduces an environment where you need to bring people who have this ability along to succeed].

What are Trinity's problems and why is she so hard to balance?

With the right setup Trinity is capable of perpetual invincibility...Not just for herself, but for others as well. Link and Blessing both provide periods of invincibility and though their costs are high, Energy Vampire more than makes up for this. Trinity is hard to balance as a frame because she has to both solo and team play. Her utility innately scales with the number of players on the team. Giving her abysmal and boring solo leveling experience. Some would say that, much like Rhino, if she didn't have invincibility she wouldn't have much else to work with. Especially in higher level solo play.

So here it is, I am asking you the community. How much would be ok for you personally? How would you changer her in a way that makes her feel fair to you and the people who think the opposite of whether or not she needs a nerf?

It would be nice to have DE, be an equal part of this discussion, but that would be up to them!

[InsaneAction]

TL:DR...

 

She doesn't need a Nerf...

[Althix]

pretty much. unlike other warframes Trinity have no offensive abilities.

 

the fact that she can block a horde of infested with link is a flaw in game mechanics rather than opnesss of a warframe.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Althix

[Liechea]

Switch Link and Blessing's Energy Cost.

[LasersGoPewPew]

if people are complaining about links invincibility why not just turn it into an aoe crowd control skill with armor bonus for several seconds? so it prevents the "link+EV is OP combo" that everyone complains about, it would also give her a combative ability. albeit Link has saved my butt a few times the aoe/armor bonus skill would be a valid replacement.

[Kobalt]

I personally think there is a viable work around for her invincibility.

If I boil it down to what I think she needs to continue supporting her team it would be.

-Survivability

-CC Immunity

-Energy

Let's start at the bottom with Energy Vampire. At a cost of 50 [less with continuity] we get back 100 energy [130 with focus]. Once invested into this conversion is a little too efficient. It also has the problem of being better with less levels due to the way it scales. People don't level it as much to keep the duration short so that they can cast again sooner. This also means that due to the way over damage is treated, you are most oft better off with weapons that deal in burst over sustained damage.

My changes to Energy Vampire would be:

-Increase the cost

--Inbetween 50 and 75

-Change the scaling

--Time should remain constant

---Using continuity should not make the skill worst

--Leveling better increases the effectiveness of damage to energy trade

-A small % of the energy gained is given to non-primary allies*

--This effect could be made stronger/viable if we solved the quad energy siphon problem

* - These are maybes not musts!

Now Link's only problem is that it provides invincibility! Removing it though causes other new problems. Link is Trinity's only damage dealing skill, reducing it's effectiveness also reduces her output by a lot. She also need to keep her ability to use it to avoid status/cc. This is a skill that has the potential for trades though!

My changes to Link would be:

-Reduce the the damage reduction from 100% to 60% at max rank

--This could potentially scale to 80% with focus

-Reduce the cost of the skill to 50

-Increase the duration to be inline with other reduction skills

-Increase the damage output in a way that is useful

--Make the damage ignore armor

--Make it capable of effecting 2 or more targets

-Keep CC/status redirecting properties

Blessing does it's job as a healing tool and then some. To be honest it's use generally out scales Well of Life enough to make it never worth casting [though I don't have any idea how one would fix this without radically changing Well of Life]. It is her ultimate, so it should have impact! Invincibility is once again an issue.

My changes to Blessing would be:

-Reduce the damage reduction from 100% to 50%

--This could potentially scale with focus

--This reduction would not stack with any other reduction including link

-Increase duration of the reduction

-Keep healing as is

These changes would allow her to keep link, a considerable reduction, up perpetually as before. The gain per cycle would be reasonably smaller though, due to the increased cost of Energy Vampire and reduced cost of Link coupled with it's increased duration. At the same time chaining Blessing becomes more difficult. This it to make her playable and keep her capable of supporting her allies. Increasing the number of effected targets to link and making it ignore armor would make her a more viable damage dealer. In the case of a tougher situation she could layer link and blessing to gain a greater effect! Still not invincible, but very tanky and providing much needed health/resistance to her allies.

If I really think hard on it and how easy it has been, these changes wouldn't kill it for me!

[Kobalt]

Switch Link and Blessing's Energy Cost.

You've just created a team of perpetually invincible players! X0D

[Kobalt]

TL:DR...

 

She doesn't need a Nerf...

I would agree with you on this, but it seems that DE has mad it's stance on invincibility as a whole. I made this thread to talk about what kind of loss is acceptable to the community if there were no other choice!

[TinyLesbianRobot]

TRIN DOESN'T NEED A NERF.
RHINO DIDN'T NEED A NERF.
NOBODY NEEDS TO BE NERFED.

This game is PvE.  There is LITERALLY no reason to nerf ANY frame unless they have an ability that breaks the game, like Saryn's Moult once did, and I'm getting sick of the part of the game I enjoy, the sense of godlike power and control, getting hamstringed by people whining about 'balance'.  News flash: if a frame is too powerful, buff the other frames to match it. What's happening right now is that a powerful frame is being nerfed to balance it with another frame, but then the other frame is more powerful, so it gets nerfed to match the first frame again.  If this keeps up, if Warframes keep getting nerfed and nerfed and nerfed, then I am done, and given how much I love this game that makes me very sad.

[Inberun]

Tanking < Ability to kill and disrupt enemies movement in large scale (Looking at you Nyx, Banshee, Vauban)

Edited May 21, 2013 by Crimson_King256

[Vorpalstryke]

People calling for nerfs should spend their time and energy thinking of ways the developers could improve their own favorite frames and on constructive criticism instead.

[Qb3rt]

Just change Link to "Damage done to linked target restores Trinity's shields". Done.

 

-> No more invincibility, keeps tankability in place, keeps survivability high, maintains general theme of the Warframe.

[Kobalt]

Do people even read the thread, instead of just the title? I never said I wanted a nerf, as a matter of fact I said that I didn't think she or Rhino needed one at all. Truth of the matter is though that DE doesn't see it that way! If it wasn't ok for rhino to do, being a frame that does slightly more damage and far less utility than trinity, every so often...How could DE possibly be ok with trinity doing it indefinitely?

They are sticking on this change and have made that clear based on what they've said. Either way Trinity is in for one of two things, a big fat nerf or a total rework. I simply thought that it would be better if the community gave DE feedback on what they are willing to give up, so that in the case it is a nerf it doesn't go as badly as things did with Iron Skin. Even if there is no nerf and they rework instead, the Trinity you know right know, is very likely not to exist very soon. I guess people would rather complain in hopes it will change something with no say in how it inevitably will.

+1 to anyone who took the time to try and think up an alternative!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Kobalt

[Amistyrja]

No more nerfs please.

[ToeSama]

I don't think she needs a nerf. Not because I like running an OP frame or anything, I just don't think that DE has any handle on WHAT things actually ARE yet. There's so little to the game right now that DE should be ADDING to the gameplay of all elements instead of removing. This included enemies and everything else as well. Frames for the most part need most of their skills buffed, and any frame that has a good selection of skills like the Trinity doesn't need to lose what she has until everything else can be brought to a level where invincibility skills don't make the game an auto cake walk.

 

The problem with Rhino was not the skill, it was the game on a whole. The same is true for Trinity. There is virtually no skill needed to play the game at the moment. We can worry about nerfing things AFTER the game improves overall. This is a beta game after all. If we've reached the point where we need to nerf what a player can do, there's not much reason to dump any more cash into it...

Edited May 21, 2013 by ToeSama

[Toom1275]

Nerfing a good frame is like what happend to my elementary school long ago. The school was deemed one of the best in the district, and its principal got awards for his work. As a reward for doing so well, they decided to try to force the principal into the worst school in the district, and replace him with the wicked witch of the west; "balancing" the school's performances. The principal chose to retire rather than suffer in the armpit school, and the new principal brought the level of the school down a bit; senior staff quit rather than work for her.

 

If you try to "balance" things by making things worse, everybody loses.

[InsaneAction]

OH GOD, WHY DID THEY TAKE AWAY THE LITTLE RED DOWN ARROW!!!!

 

Link's Invincibility only works when in range of someone to link to... No one to link to, no invincibility...

 

I'm gonna go Picket at DE for "No More Nerfs"...