Tenno Foundation For Martial Excellence

[alocrius]

TL:DR Is that Lotus I hear..? I think she's saying.. Something's wrong.. the Tenno have no martial arts enhancement development roadmap. Let's examine this in further detail, shall we? I'll break it down into three parts.

1) The Gripe: Why be a half-assed space ninja?

I mean it's all just there fully visualized on-screen (the ninja goodness) yet the game mechanics seem largely blind to the fact that ninja's are playing it. Space ninja's really need two essential things to be space ninja's. They need space and ninja skills and martial excellence. So what if I can't count to two. We have the space so what ninja skills do we have apart from traditional melee? Well, we have slide melee and wall-running melee and if your slick a flip melee or a spin melee. We've got a ground execute and a stealth execute which doesn't seem to work for me. That isn't much for a ninja repertoire. What's missing? Real world ninja equivalency. Yeah I said it.

2)The Solution: "This is spartaaaaaa!"

This is what I feel is missing. Examples provided.

1)Better Swordplay

2)Ju-Jitsu takedowns

3)Taikwondo kicking

4)Wing-Chun Counter-attacks/striking

5)Shaolin Kicking(anything shaolin)

6)Muy-thai elbows/knees bludgeoning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfdmg49IlHE

7)Ninjutsu disarming

8)The Achilles execution

9)Kung-Fu Weapons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKDD_EIw7kU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

10)Ninja Weapons

http://www.intermartialarts.com/article/ninja-weapons-and-tools-comprehensive-list

11)Flying Scissors Takedown

12)Dual Nunchaku

These are just a few of many possible sources of inspiration that could be drawn from to enhance combat mechanics.

So far it's as if the Tenno were dropped into the game and DE stood back and went, yup, they're cooked. There simply aren't enough game mechanics in place to accentuate or reward having skill as a ninja. Bonus mission xp (10 melee kills, etc..) just doesn't qualify as martial excellence, sorry. Neither for that matter do the Tenno mastery ranks. While they are a nice feature they don't enhance gameplay. I love the mods skill system but it doesn't contribute terribly much to the depth of gameplay. It could but it doesn't the way its implemented.

3)Implementation: This is how we dooo it..

First these new combat enhancements could be dropped as primary mods to replace abilities. They would be in a universal pool of ninja utility skills that you could choose from to customize your warframe. They would be equivalent in power to regular abilities but would generally be more limited in range. What they lack in range they make up for in power. They could work in tandem with a melee mode in which you would always have your melee weapon equipped (or you could go empty-handed, depending on the martial mods you were using). The combat mods could be in four categories: offensive, defensive(blocking and counter-attacks), executions and utility. The utility skills I'm imagining, I haven't quite fleshed out but they would be along the lines of subterfuge/infiltration skills like disguises, bombs, poisons, hacking and could be part of the high level martial mastery missions?? I describe later (not sure what to call them). These enhancements would call for more challenging enemies than sawman with more effective melee skills to make counter-attack/blocking mods more viable.

Martial mastery missions (mmm's) could be designated in dead end planet areas so it wouldn't impede normal progression. Mmm's could be endgame content for players who had collected three or more martial mods and want access to a more extreme gameplay experience. In these missions only one regular (non-ultimate) ability could be slotted and the rest would be martial mods. These missions could take the form of a bounty hunter type scenario where maybe you go after higher level operatives of the opposing factions and have souped up versions of the capture mission with story driven goals/rewards. Many possibilities for mission types but what I'd like to see most is more technical goals and level challenges that require smart use of mod abilities and tactics... more emphasis maybe on subterfuge and infiltration and specialized skills.

I'm thinking no regular guns allowed. DE could expand into new traditional primary and secondary weapons(so many possibilities with traditional weapons powered up Tenno style, power-claws, electro-spikes, ramjet fukedake(uses stamina), shielded sai's(w/ a shielding ability), powered nunchuka, inertial chain whips, etc.. a million ways to go. These weapons would also have more limited range but again would be very powerful. The ramjet fukedake could provide a strong stun effect and the electro-spikes could detonate with different effects.. I think these trad. weapons could be more limited in range and capability but have powerful usefeful effects.. just something to contrast the existing weapons while complimenting the martial mods theme of limiting range. These martial mods can be used in the rest of the game as well, not just mastery missions.

Things like Shinobi-Shuko(climbing gloves) could be implemented to expand movement/level design. DE could also use these dead end areas to introduce new parkour challenges (failing wouldn't stop progression through game). These areas could be ruinous ancient Orokin space citadels where Tenno warriors of old gathered in force to train. Now they are over-run by hostile factions, renegades, mysterious/unknown enemies.

An additional concept I would like to see added to the martial mods system would be something like Spacemarines fury gauge. I like the ideas notionphil came up with for his harmony system https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/66119-harmony-the-opposite-of-mastery-an-overhaul-of-affinity/?hl=harmony. My system could be added into something like this. Using a variety of skills in succession to rack up kills fills the fury gauge which you then pop for possible bonuses like regeneration, increased damage, temp invulnerability, invisibility, etc... You would need the fury gauge in lieu of not having normal abilities/weapons against ranged mobs/powerful units. Along these same lines, specific kill combo's (flying knee>chained elbow strike>iron leg execution) could unlock different effects. It would be highly tactical to make sure you had enough energy to use chained moves/abilities for a kill which then activates a specific effect like invisibility that would help you to progress past a level challenge. These ideas could go in a lot of directions but they are just concepts that could be used to enhance the current melee system.

Imagine being surrounded by a group of enemies who have swords as powerful as yours that can cut you in half with one swing. You would need a defensive weapon or defensive empty hand mod and maybe a crowd control kick mod like the butterfly kick to counter the threat. Focusing your abilities on dire threats while chaining attacks to unlock boosts is going to put you in the game. And DE could have a field day figuring out all kinds of unique mod combo abilities. It would be fun to farm for a set of martial mods that unlocks a special combo ability allowing you to further customize your playstyle. For example 3 empty hand martial mods (used consecutively) could unlock a dim-mak death touch execution instant use ability.

Here, in a nutshell, is the reason why you should join The Tenno Foundation for Martial Excellence. It introduces more skill based PvE combat elements as now you have situational offensive, defensive and counter-attack skills. Decreasing ranged combat and eliminating ult spamming accentuates movement and tactics. Universal martial mods allow you to customize all your warframe abilities to suit your playstyle turning your Warframe into something more personal and valuable. These ideas also naturally address the endgame quandry by broadening the combat tactics and raising the replay value. If missions are to continue to be so repetitive we HAVE to have more interesting game mechanics to make the repetition an engaging experience. These mods could come out in series with different specializations such as sword techniques for group fighting, sword techniques for executions, judo takedowns, crowd control kicks, empty fist techniques/counter attacks, chain punch/striking, close quarters combat(elbows and knees), iron-fist/iron-leg executions and the list of possibilities goes on and on.

This thread is just my fantasy update. I don't expect to see it in game, but maybe some of these ideas for improving melee could help fill the void (pun intended) in Warframe things like kogake fail to. The most fun I've had in game is boxing disruptors with the furax and Rhino's iron skin. I know more melee-centric/martial arts driven combat would kick &#!, literally :P. Edited September 19, 2013 by alocrius

[HellEnforcer]

 Well, as a fellow Tenno that uses melee attacks more than anything (about half my total kills are melee) and that just uses the guns to take down flying enemies or to slow the fleeing ones down (actually my second highest number of kills are warframe skills, then guns), I have to say two things.

 

 First, Although I love the idea of having melee combos, the idea of counter-attacks and the like, makes me think that the system would not be very "fluent" but rather based on cinematics (those cuts from the late Resident Evil games comes to my mind; where it prompts you to press some button repeatedly or a combination of them to get free and such) and I'm not very eager for that kind of implementation. Maybe this is not what you had in mind, it is just the impression that I got.

 

 However, This brings to my second point. The combos themselves are actually quite appealing to me. Pressing a combination of inputs to make some nice move would be fun. Something like w-w-click would make a thrust with the weapon. However, this could turn the ninja idea into a brawler game, which is not the point either. A balance must be present somehow, and I can't clearly see how it could be achieved.

 

 Third, the mod system you are talking about I think I am not understanding it very well. The way I understood it is that those moves are mod based and that could take the warframe skill slots. If that was the idea, I'm not very eager for that. Perhaps an achievement system to unlock those. Get 500 kills on pluto by using slide melee attack would give you the achievement "ROLFcopter I" and gives you a new combo, then get to 2000 and you upgrade the achievement to something better like "ROLFcopter II" and increases the combo damage by 0.1%. Work for your combos, you can't get them magically... Train for them!

 

 No, I can't count either it seems...

[alocrius]

I picked the mod system as the vehicle for melee/close combat upgrades because it's the system already in place and some of the mods already have custom animations (ults).  I imagine many of the mods I suggested above would be a good bit of work for DE but it would be incredibly sick/slick.  Having melee-centric martial arts abilities instead of mage powers that we could use in dead end missions where tenno could be challenged by new melee-centric enemies as powerful as our own warframes.  This could be the challenge thats missing from Warframe, or the "endgame".  Imagine fighting more enemies like the stalker except instead of shooting him in the face every time you would have high powered melee counter attacks. Instead of having an ult button that clears a room you have situational martial arts skills, a fury gauge you fill with kills and combo abilities that gives you power boosts so you can survive ranged combat/bosses without ranged weapons and ults.  Imagine doing a flying scissors takedown on a boss and then your mate jumps in and unleashes an iron-leg smash execution.  It's a melee lover's buffet and won't appeal to everyone I guess.

Edited August 28, 2013 by alocrius

[alocrius]

I don't think I've ever seen anything like this done before in a game.  Implementing legitimate martial arts animations(assuming they have access to motion capture).  It would take this game beyond Oz.  But you need an imagination to get there.  Actually, some of the architecture in the void is rather Ozian.  Maybe DE is already there..

Edited August 28, 2013 by alocrius

[Tetsmeha]

Mechanics for 1v1 combat do not benefit a game like Warframe where many enemies are thrown at you. This is why games like Batman:AC have one button do everything. Adding too many layers to the current gameplay mechanics would be extremely user unfriendly.

[alocrius]

I don't know what game your playing but mechanics for 1v1 are already benefiting a game like Warframe.  Besides there is crowd control in the model I'm suggesting, if you even bothered to read it.  It's just coming from a (powered)traditional weapons/martial arts perspective.

Edited June 24, 2013 by alocrius

[silentdrumr]

 

This thread is just my fantasy update.  I don't expect to see it in game, however the most fun I've had in game is boxing disruptors with the furax and Rhino's iron skin.  I know more melee-centric/martial arts driven combat would literally kick &#!. 

 

 

Lol I actually like your fantasy update, but i don't expect to see it either xD

 

I think any sort of grappling in game would be amazing. Imagine me throwing MOAs at corpus techs or kicking a charger like a soccer ball into a group of runners as they explode.

 

Honestly, the melee in this game is what keeps me playing the most. I guess that's why they keep throwing melee weapons at us in every update because they know a good chunk of people love the melee playstyle. :p

 

Either way, I would like to see at least one of these ideas even considered. +1

[Fijasrules]

this is a great idea the melee in this game is cool but making it more ninja is what it needs so we can be space ninjas not space exterminators

[alocrius]

I made a bunch of clarifications to this thread to hopefully make it a more useful reference point for upgrading the melee system.  Hopefully as a community with enough dialog, we can help push for some change.  Speak your minds people.  I would like to see what other sources of inspiration people would like to see drawn from to create these hypothetical martial mods..

Edited August 27, 2013 by alocrius

[Xymos]

+1 Sounds like a nice idea.

[tmtke]

Personally I don't like the combo unlocking that much, while I'd rather like to see a melee system, which is based on:
* basic melee attack

* charge melee attack

* the number of the enemies

* the weapon's attributes (speed, reach, etc.)

* and most importantly, the player's current position, momentum compared to the enemy/enemies in reach

 

All special attacks/combinations could be derived from the player's movement, the distance/position/state of the opponent(s), using the same key set, because these won't mess up the current system, and can make you learn by trial & error. I remember myself playing long hours in empty Q3A maps to practice bunnyjumping, rocket jump movement and so on, and with CPMA for more special movements.

 

Regarding mods:

I think there could be some variations in warframe ability mods, to have more specialized frames, as I have mentioned in the other thread. It's okay to have as many warframe connected mods as the devs need (I just think that 2-3 is just enough, sometimes I feel that there are some unnecessary mods just to have all 4), but there should be some general mods.

 

Stealth gameplay:

Is needed, clearly. I like def/mobile def missions, but there are no subtle maps, where you HAVE to sneak up on your enemies. Maybe introducing friendly fire could reduce the brutal warframe AoE powers, imagine where a stupid player with Mag runs into the fight and do a Crush, causing a lot of damage to his fellow players :) This would automatically improve team play.

[alocrius]

I like the general idea of what I think your suggesting, which means different attack animations would trigger depending on those variables you mentioned.  I'm trying to imagine what it would look like but you haven't described much about it.  Maybe you could give some more specific examples for the combat your suggesting..

 

The combo unlocking i'm suggesting ties into what I perceive as the mystical aspect of the tenno and their martial tradition.  Having complete mastery over your skill set (represented by combo-kills) grants you access to a mastery ability.   I think rewarding tactical use of mods with an extra useable ability could create more dynamic and rewarding gameplay..  

 

Regarding stealth, there are so many exciting things that could be done in this arena.  I kind of see all these issues as solvable with more dynamic/tactical mods and more sophisticated level design.  The missions are so simplistic in general the objectives are kind of pointless.

[tmtke]

Ok, I'm trying to come up with some. (Btw. I think the original idea was the same at DE also, just needs some improvement)

 

Situations:

* Combine crouch + jump + attack: a cut from below, some damage added regarding timing, jump power, etc., with corresponding animation.

* Wallrun with crosshair on enemy then attack: jumps on enemy, doing the same damage as while sliding.

* Wallrun with crosshair on enemy then DODGE: jumps on enemy, knocking down

* While in stealth mode, falling down with crosshair on enemy and attack: stealth attack + slide damage

* Forward + sidestep + forward + attack: quickly moves through the opponent, and attacks from behind (animation depending weapon mostly)

 

etc.

[alocrius]

@tmtke

 

Ok, I think i get what you are saying.  This actually seems like an elegant system of upgrades for combat and seems in keeping with current design.  I would throw something in like dodging to the side of an enemy and attacking instigates a scissors takedown...  but I'm crazy like that.  Anyway I like all those ideas and would like to see them in our toolbox.  

Edited September 19, 2013 by alocrius

[Fraank]

+1

Very good idea, but it will take ages to animate every single movement. 

and Only Kogake/ Furax/ Ankyros would be more "awesome" than before i think. 

 

In my opinion it should be like that:

at first: glaive/kestrel is as good as it is, i woulnt change anything there.

 

for the other melee weapons:

- blocking + running:

    * bashes every enemie in front of you to the left and right side away.

 

-(button1)auto attack:

    * just a normal auto attack. nothing special.

 

-(button2)stab attack: 

   * every weapon gains additional range. (+20% range)

   * daggers: armor ignor + 3to5 times more base dmg)

   * hand to hand: knockback(and/or at post #1 mentioned moves)

   * 2H-Weapons: -50% base-Dmg if sword-type/ -80%dmg if hammer-type, knockback

    

-(button3)ground slam attack

   * slightly reduced range for every weapon (e.g. -20% range)

   * throw enemies in front of you on the ground

   * 2H-Weapons: +25% AOE-radius if sword-type/ +50% AOE-radius if hammer-type

   * dagger: only one enemy will be thrown on the ground

 

combined with slinding:

 -(button1)auto attack + jumping / sliding: (fast attack, or charge attack)

    * normal slide/jump attack, nothing special.

 

-(button2)stab attack + sliding/jumping: (fast attack, or charge attack)

    * silent(if hand to hand-weapon or dagger is equipped), enemies wont recognize you

    * if jump attack hit s an enemy, 2times more dmg.

   

-(button3)ground slam attack + sliding/jumping: (fast attack, or charge attack)

    * slide attack:very loud( especially if 2H-Hammers are equipped) enemies will hear you from far far away.

    * jump attack:very loud( ... ), AOE-knockdown-bonus-radius of 25% + 25% extra-dmg (the stamina system should be replaced by a stealth system  because that's more a ninja like way)

 

- walking / running + any melee attack: (fast attack, or charge attack) 

    * ground slamp throw enemies in the direction you are walking.

    * if walking to the left, the movement of the attack will be performed from right to left. 

    * if walking to the right, the movement of the attack will be performed from left to right. 

    * if walking forward or backward the tenno just turn around, in order to this, nothing special will happen.

 

-wall runs: i have no idea 

 

-it should be possible to decapitate enemies.