Damage, shields, mods, enemies, and you.

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#1 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:47 AM

So how much damage does each shot do?

To determine the damage of an weapon, apply the upgrade tree damage nodes as multiplicative. Then add up your damage mods(don't forget when you apply it to add 1 so the base damage stays). For example, a level 30 Latron with 5 damage nodes and +22%/+21%/+20%/+17% damage mods.

30*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1=48
.22+.21+.2+.17=.8
48*1.8=86.4 normal damage(rounds to 86)

Now, if I were to add a 25% armor piercing mod(4 slots for damage and 1 for AP), I would do 86 normal damage and 21 armor piercing damage.
If I had a 6th mod slot(rifles only have 5 mod slots) and put in another 25% armor piercing mod, I would do 86 normal damage and 42 armor piercing.
If I had a 7th mod slot and put in a 25% freeze mod, I would do 86 normal damage, 42 armor piercing damage, and 21 freeze damage.

Shotguns fire a specific amount of pellets with a specific base damage. HEK = 8@18 dmg, Strun = 10@12 dmg, Boar = 5@12 dmg. Each pellet has it's own damage calculation and crit check. This means all upgrade nodes and mods must be applied to each pellet individually. For example, a single +2% damage on a level 1 strun/boar does nothing(2% of 12 is .24, which gets rounded down to 12, or 0 in the case of elemental damage).

Elemental damage(AP/Fire/Freeze/Lightning) is determined by the mod value and your normal damage. You do not get more damage by adding all the elements together(Using a weak element is around 1/4 to 1/8th the strength of an element strong against that opponent). Fire should only be used against infested and lightning only against corpus. Freeze has a nice secondary and decent damage. Armor piercing is great against anything except infested runners/leapers/chargers.

Crits take the damage of a hit and multiply it by crit damage. Nothing is bypassed, no weird mechanisms. All elemental damage is subject to the same multiplier(if a projectile crits, ALL damage from that projectile is multiplied by crit damage). Shotguns calculate the crit chance on each projectile, as does multishot. One thing to note, crit damage tree nodes are +10% multiplicative(2.2 crit damage multiplier with 4 nodes). Crit damage MODS are additive. +50% crit damage is only worth .75 multiplier, and +100% is only worth 1.5. Sorry, you cannot get to 70x crit multiplier.

Shields and armor(i.e. stuff you have to deal with to kill mobs)

Shields-Take full damage from all damage except freeze, which does double damage. There is no locational damage to shields(no headshots, sorry). If you break a shield and still have damage remaining, 1 point of the remaining damage goes away and the rest is applied to health.

Armor(grineer normal/shield/elite, infested crawler body, Ancient body/head, Corpus crewman)-Reduces all damage by a base amount with a per level scaling reduction.

FLAT REDUCTIONS TO NORMAL(NON-ELEMENTAL) DAMAGE
66% reduction for normal/shield grineer body shots
around 20% for grineer elite body shots(Rare spawns = few data points. ;_;)
50% reduction for crawler body shots
33% reduction for nauseous crawler body shots
25% reduction for ancient head shots
75% reduction for ancient body shots
100% reduction for Corpus Crewmember head shots
20% reduction for Corpus Crewmember body shots

Armor ignoring melee weapons ignore all reductions for the normal damage they apply(flat or per level), Armor piercing elemental damage does flat damage subject to a multiplier, and piercing mods do not confer armor piercing. If fire or lightning hits a non-vital area on an armored mob, it will be subject to per level decreases(but vital shots with a mobs elemental weakness are always flat)

Elemental(AP/Fire/Freeze/Lightning) is applied first. If this kills the enemy, it does not count as being killed by that weapon. If the target is not dead, normal damage is applied. If it is a shotgun, each pellet is applied when it hits. If at any time an enemy dies, damage will stop being calculated and displayed. Therefore, if any elemental damage is enough to kill something alone, you will not see the remaining normal/elemental damage numbers.

Likewise, if a shotgun/multishot kills something and there are still pellets/bullets hitting, those bullets are now hitting a corpse and will not show damage numbers(They will however show blood spatters, sparks, etc)

Grineer-Everything armored except melee Grineer

Headshots Normal= 100% - ~1.3%/lvl, AP=300%, Fire= 75% - 1%/lvl, Freeze= 33% - 1%/lvl, lightning= 40% - 1.25%/lvl
Bodyshot= headshot normal dmg / 3 (armor), all elemental = half of headshot

Sawmen-100% on body shots, 300% normal damage and 200% elemental damage on headshots

Shield Grineer-As normals, but 2 levels behind

Note:Highest encountered was level 23
Headshots= normal = 200% @ level 8 - .5% level, AP = 200%, fire < 100%, lightning/freeze > 100%
Body= normal = headshot / 3, AP= 100%, fire/lightning/freeze= headshot / 2

Commander-normal= same as bombadier/gunner, immune to lightning/fire damage, AP/freeze not tested

Infested-Ancient heads/bodies and crawler bodies armored

Normals(chargers, leapers, runners)-Head weak point, no armor, staggered by fire

Ancients(Disruptor, Toxic, Healer)Lower legs/arms weakpoint, head lightly armored, body armored, staggered by fire, Immune to lightning
Feet/hands/shins/forearms= Normal 100%, AP=100% Fire=200%, Freeze=100%, lightning = ZERO
Head=75% - 1%/lvl, AP=200% Fire=75% - .5%/lvl Freeze= 50% - 1.5%/lvl, lightning = ZERO
Body=Headshot normal damage / 3 (armor), AP/Fire/Freeze = half of headshot damage, lightning = ZERO

Nauseous Crawler-Head weak point(2x), forearms/hands/shins/feet weak point(1x), Bodies armored
head= 200% normal/freeze AP/lightning=100% Fire = 400%
forearms/hands/shins/feet = 100% normal/freeze AP/lightning=50% Fire = 200%
body= 66% normal-.5%/lvl, AP = 50%, Fire = Slightly over 125%-?/lvl, Freeze= 50%-?/lvl, Lightning = 50%-?/lvl

Crawler-Head weak point(2x), forearms/hands/shins/feet weak point(1x), Bodies armored
head= 200% normal/freeze AP/lightning=100% Fire = 400%
forearms/hands/shins/feet = 100% normal/freeze AP/lightning=50% Fire = 200%
body= 50% normal-.5%/lvl, AP = 50%, Fire = 100%-?/lvl, Freeze = 50%-?/lvl, Lightning = 50%-?lvl

Corpus-Crewmen armored

Crewman-armored EVERYWHERE. Armor ignoring melee does full damage. Staggered by lightning
Head immune to normal, AP=2000%, Fire=100%, Freeze=200%, Lightning = 400%
Body 81%-(.5%/lvl), AP=100%, Fire=33%-?%/lvl(damage too low to say) Freeze=75% - .33%/lvl Lightning=160% - 1%/lvl

Moa - Weak point is midsection/gun. Staggered by lightning
Shielded=100% normal/AP/Fire/freeze, Freeze=200%
Legs=100% normal/AP/freeze, Fire= 50%, Lightning=200%
Midsection/gun=200% normal/AP/freeze, Fire = 100%, Lightning =400%

Osprey 100% normal/AP/Fire/Freeze, 200% Lightning

Cameras-200% lightning. Very very very low HP.

To wrap this all up:

Armor Piercing is very effective against the Grineer, always gives flat bonuses, and does well against pretty much everything(only less than 100% on non-vital hits on infested runners/chargers/leapers/crawlers).

Freeze doesn't do good damage, but makes Ancients much easier to deal with(moving slower makes their feet/hands move around less, and their charge becomes hilariously slow).

Fire is a subpar damage source vs anything but infested(and only staggers infested)

Lightning is a subpar damage source vs anything but Corpus(and only staggers Corpus)

Normal damage is good when shooting at anything, as long as you know where to shoot. Additionally, it is what is used to determine the strength of elemental damage.

edit:Updated numbers to reflect the new system. As damage mods are now additive with each other(stacking them confers no bonus to the damage mods, and a smaller bonus to elemental mods) you are usually better off using 1 or none. Normal damage just isn't worth it if you can get similar amounts of elemental damage.

Edited by KGeddon, 28 January 2013 - 11:24 PM.

#2 Zzinged

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:10 AM

Nice post man! Can we get this stickied please, mods?

#3 Kyrzon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:11 AM

So how much damage does each shot do?
To determine the damage of an weapon, count up the upgrade tree damage nodes. Then count up your damage nodes. For example, a level 30 Latron with 5 damage nodes and +22%/+21%/+20%/+17% damage mods.

30*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.1*1.22*1.21*1.20*1.17=100.137 normal damage.

Now, if I were to add a 25% armor piercing mod(4 slots for damage and 1 for AP), I would do 100 normal damage and 25 armor piercing damage.
If I had a 6th mod slot(rifles only have 5 mod slots) and put in another 25% armor piercing mod, I would do 100 normal damage and 50 armor piercing.
If I had a 7th mod slot and put in a 25% freeze mod, I would do 100 normal damage, 50 armor piercing damage, and 25 freeze damage.

Here is where my maths get fuzzy and confused; my understanding was that each mod was based off of base damage for the weapon but stacks multiplicatively with mods of the same type, so for AP instead of it being 25 damage, it would only end up being 7.5 damage. Does it actually go off of the modifided damage for the weapon instead? if so, are you sure it doesn't apply multiplicatively with all mods instead, ending up with (at the end) 100.137 base damage, 56.327 armor piercing damage, and (because of modifiers) 39.116 freeze damage, for a total of (across all elements) 651.937% increased weapon damage?

Edited by Kyrzon, 21 January 2013 - 03:13 AM.

#4 ProjectRay12

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:14 AM

Thank you so goddamn much for this

Now I can scrap the lightning on my strun and live with it.

#5 Arkfall

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:21 AM

Wow... my brain can't handle this right now..

But dude! Your the man for doing all the work and the math! I salute you!

See you out on the Rails, Tennos!

#6 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:27 AM

Here is where my maths get fuzzy and confused; my understanding was that each mod was based off of base damage for the weapon, so for AP instead of it being 25 damage, it would only end up being 7.5 damage. Does it actually go off of the modifided damage for the weapon instead? if so, are you sure it doesn't apply multiplicatively, ending up with (at the end) 100.137 base damage, 56.327 armor piercing damage, and (because of modifiers) 39.116 freeze damage, for a total of (across all elements) 651.937% increased weapon damage?

Mods(damage and elemental) always multiply the current normal damage. Apply all damage nodes first, then apply +%damage mods. That is the amount of normal damage you do. Now you can calculate your elemental damage in the four categories(elemental mods are additive as they don't modify your normal damage). Tooltips are broken. That example is actually the gun I was using, and it always did 100 damage(subject to armor) and always did the appropriate elemental effect(subject to armor, weaknesses, headshot multipliers, crit damage multipliers on crit).

I went through and used FRAPs to record. Then I'd go through at 1/4 speed and observe the damage of each shot(which BTW is alot per run)

I tested to see how weapon normal and elemental damage was calculated. Then I set my normal damage to 100, and used 1 element at a time against differing levels of enemies.

Some enemies were very rare(Grineer elites, and you rarely see more than 2 types in one level), some I hardly cared about(crawlers tend to lead with their head, so that or the arms they use to pull themselves forward are the most common hit location. These parts are not armored and therefore no per level reductions)

The thing to note is that damage is always displayed in integers. I know everything used to calculate has a float value, but I can't say whether enemies recieve decimal damage. I cannot say how much life/shield they have for sure(there is no number value on the identification bar). But if I shot a level 42 Ancient disruptor in the body with these particular mods(mods have a decimal precision which is not shown except via the tooltip, which is broken to display a percent of 10 for elemental, 30 for normal ATM on the Latron. The HEK uses a percent of 25 to determine it's elemental tooltip, but this is also an incorrect number.) and a particular +20% freeze mod, I would ALWAYS do 11 normal damage, and 2 freeze damage non-crit. It never changed once, not even after dozens of shots.

Edited by KGeddon, 21 January 2013 - 03:33 AM.

#7 RyanGo

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:39 PM

do you know about your own warframe's armor? in terms of mods and such.

like if you can get % armor mods in combination to get 100% armor, what does that really do?

#8 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

do you know about your own warframe's armor? in terms of mods and such.

like if you can get % armor mods in combination to get 100% armor, what does that really do?

We have no way of knowing how much damage it actually mitigates. Since we don't see damage numbers inflicted on ourselves(if we did, I would have collected them and tried to figure out player armor). we have no idea of the effective damage of each hit. We also have a base armor, so we can't see a 0 armor hit. I might do it at some point, but it would be considerably harder because even watching the life/shield values there is no indication as to what the level of the mob was that hit me(enemies level increases damage inflicted).

As to 100%, it works like damage. Volt shows a base 50 armor by the tooltip(no way of saying if that is correct)
Add a +70% armor mod and it becomes 85.
If you add another +70% and it's additive you get 120. If multiplicative 144.5.

So you can stack armor mods in all 8 slots if you want, but the end result will be a number, not a percentage.

#9 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

I was wrong. Working on mitigation testing now. Base armor mitigates 33% of the incoming damage to health.

Edited by KGeddon, 21 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

#10 Tykero

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:25 PM

I love mechanics diving. Lovely work, KGeddon.

#11 FirstToLast

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:37 PM

Nice post man! Can we get this stickied please, mods?

I just stickied it, not on the forums though.

#12 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:48 PM

So I figured out how to determine player armor mod effectiveness. Thank you to RyanGo for asking a question and making me think why it wasn't possible to determine. Once I figured out the problems with determining it, I realized there was a mob specifically designed to test this.

The Grineer sawman does damage in single hits widely spaced(but not wider than the shield regen delay). So I don't have to deal with burst fire/pellets or any of that nonsense. At level 1, he does exactly 100 damage. WTF? You kidding me bro? Perfect!

So after killing everything but a buzzsaw, I took hits. Then I added a 70% armor mod(the max, so I don't have to deal with weird numbers due to mods holding undisplayed levels of accuracy). More hits. Another mod. More hits. Another mod.

It's EHP. /facepalm.

Effective HP(skip if you understand effective HP already)

You start with a base of 50 armor. Assume you have 100 health. Your armor is 50, so multiply your health by 1.5(base +50%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.5(2) times to kill you. He is doing 66 percent of his regular damage.

You add a +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 85(50*1.7). Multiply your health by 1.85(base +85%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.85(2) times to kill you. He is doing 54 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 144(85*1.7). Multiply your health by 2.44(base +144%). Now that sawman has to hit you 2.44(3) times to kill you. He is doing 40 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 245(144*1.7). Multiply your health by 3.45(base +245%). Now that sawman has to hit you3.45(4) times to kill you. He is doing 28 percent of his regular damage.

And so on until you have all 8 slots filled by armor. That gives you a max armor of 3487(multiply health by 35.87). You'd end up with around 97% mitigation(rounding. All damage rounds down to remove decimals when it is applied to an enemy/enemy applies damage to you)

::edited:: to not be stupid. If you add a +70% mod, you don't multiply by 1.7 and also add in the previous level. That's why you use 1.7 instead of .7(1.7 is base+70%). I'm really unorganized.

Edited by KGeddon, 22 January 2013 - 01:22 AM.

#13 Volume

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

So I figured out how to determine player armor mod effectiveness. Thank you to RyanGo for asking a question and making me think why it wasn't possible to determine. Once I figured out the problems with determining it, I realized there was a mob specifically designed to test this.

The Grineer sawman does damage in single hits widely spaced(but not wider than the shield regen delay). So I don't have to deal with burst fire/pellets or any of that nonsense. At level 1, he does exactly 100 damage. WTF? You kidding me bro? Perfect!

So after killing everything but a buzzsaw, I took hits. Then I added a 70% armor mod(the max, so I don't have to deal with weird numbers due to mods holding undisplayed levels of accuracy). More hits. Another mod. More hits. Another mod.

It's EHP. /facepalm.

Effective HP(skip if you understand effective HP already)

You start with a base of 50 armor. Assume you have 100 health. Your armor is 50, so multiply your health by 1.5(base +50%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.5(2) times to kill you. He is doing 66 percent of his regular damage.

You add a +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 85((50*1.7)+50). Multiply your health by 1.85(base +85%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.85(2) times to kill you. He is doing 54 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 144((85*1.7)+85). Multiply your health by 2.44(base +144%). Now that sawman has to hit you 2.44(3) times to kill you. He is doing 40 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 245((144*1.7)+144). Multiply your health by 3.45(base +245%). Now that sawman has to hit you3.45(4) times to kill you. He is doing 28 percent of his regular damage.

And so on until you have all 8 slots filled by armor. That gives you a max armor of 3487(multiply health by 35.87). You'd end up with around 97% mitigation(rounding. All damage rounds down to remove decimals when it is applied to an enemy/enemy applies damage to you)

I like this post a ton.

Great research.

Edited by Volume, 21 January 2013 - 07:03 PM.

#14 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:20 PM

I like this post a ton.

Great research.

I'm going to have to shoot all the things again to get armor values. The more armor you stack, the less %dmg reduction each point is worth(though armor/EHP itself doesn't actually give diminishing returns, it only appears this way to the uninitiated). That means I have to do as much damage in a single shot to reduce the amount of rounding error.

Edited by KGeddon, 21 January 2013 - 07:20 PM.

#15 TwilightAsh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Elemental damage(AP/Fire/Freeze/Lightning) is determined by the mod value and your normal damage. You do not get more damage by adding all the elements together. Fire should only be used against infested and lightning only against corpus. Freeze has a nice secondary and decent damage. Armor piercing is great against anything except infested runners/leapers/chargers.

Does this mean there's no point in putting 2 different elemental mods on a weapon? I always had freeze mod and electric mod on my melee weapon and primary weapon. If it's useless, might as well switch them out :O

#16 Ced23Ric

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:22 PM

Does this mean there's no point in putting 2 different elemental mods on a weapon? I always had freeze mod and electric mod on my melee weapon and primary weapon. If it's useless, might as well switch them out :O

That is a good mix against Corpus. Freeze eats up shields and slows them, Electricity deals additional damage and stuns Crewmen.

#17 KGeddon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

Elemental damage(AP/Fire/Freeze/Lightning) is determined by the mod value and your normal damage. You do not get more damage by adding all the elements together. Fire should only be used against infested and lightning only against corpus. Freeze has a nice secondary and decent damage. Armor piercing is great against anything except infested runners/leapers/chargers.

Does this mean there's no point in putting 2 different elemental mods on a weapon? I always had freeze mod and electric mod on my melee weapon and primary weapon. If it's useless, might as well switch them out :O

You have to want to apply two different elemental effects.

Fire rate mod= more lead in a shorter time = more normal damage in a shorter time = more lightning damage.
Max ammo mod= more bullets = more normal damage = more lightning damage
Multishot mod= more bullets in the same time and more bullets total = tons of normal damage = tons of lightning damage
Normal damage mod= more normal damage= more lightning damage.
More lightning damage

It's a dead end. Elemental damage stands alone and doesn't "help" anything else along. With the current roster of enemies, there is no reason to use fire except against infested, or lightning except against Corpus. Freeze isn't useful for damage really. You're mostly looking to use the secondary effects.

AP is in a class of it's own though. There are armored enemies in all the factions. Armor implies a per level reduction(which affects normal/fire/freeze/lightning), but AP stands strong and flat no matter what. This is kind of a big deal when every other type of damage is being mitigated to single digits by high level armor troops(I just leveled a Strun. I was hitting things that I wasn't even aiming at).

edit:Clarification, fire stunning infested and lightning stunning corpus is a big deal. Freeze slowing down the ancients hand/foot/charge speeds is a big deal. Fire dealing 4x damage to an infested runner which doesn't have much HP and is already taking double normal damage isn't. Freeze dealing double damage to shields which already take full normal damage isn't going to make them come down much faster.

Edited by KGeddon, 21 January 2013 - 08:55 PM.

#18 TwilightAsh

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

Thanks for the clarification! Initially I went with Freeze and electric because I was thinking that freeze could take down shields for me, then electric would stun the enemies for me. Tried swapping electric mod for ap on my Lex (no other elemental mods), and found out I could kill Grineer faster now.
Going to try swapping freeze mod on my Cronus for AP and see how it goes, since slowing enemies in melee range isn't useful at all, was using it purely to take our shields faster.

#19 Psyclosarin

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

Thanks for the effort you've put into this.

#plzstickymods

#20 RyanGo

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:03 AM

So I figured out how to determine player armor mod effectiveness. Thank you to RyanGo for asking a question and making me think why it wasn't possible to determine. Once I figured out the problems with determining it, I realized there was a mob specifically designed to test this.

The Grineer sawman does damage in single hits widely spaced(but not wider than the shield regen delay). So I don't have to deal with burst fire/pellets or any of that nonsense. At level 1, he does exactly 100 damage. WTF? You kidding me bro? Perfect!

So after killing everything but a buzzsaw, I took hits. Then I added a 70% armor mod(the max, so I don't have to deal with weird numbers due to mods holding undisplayed levels of accuracy). More hits. Another mod. More hits. Another mod.

It's EHP. /facepalm.

Effective HP(skip if you understand effective HP already)

You start with a base of 50 armor. Assume you have 100 health. Your armor is 50, so multiply your health by 1.5(base +50%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.5(2) times to kill you. He is doing 66 percent of his regular damage.

You add a +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 85((50*1.7)+50). Multiply your health by 1.85(base +85%). Now that sawman has to hit you 1.85(2) times to kill you. He is doing 54 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 144((85*1.7)+85). Multiply your health by 2.44(base +144%). Now that sawman has to hit you 2.44(3) times to kill you. He is doing 40 percent of his regular damage.

You add another +70% armor mod. Your armor is now 245((144*1.7)+144). Multiply your health by 3.45(base +245%). Now that sawman has to hit you3.45(4) times to kill you. He is doing 28 percent of his regular damage.

And so on until you have all 8 slots filled by armor. That gives you a max armor of 3487(multiply health by 35.87). You'd end up with around 97% mitigation(rounding. All damage rounds down to remove decimals when it is applied to an enemy/enemy applies damage to you)

Ah, thanks for the in depth answer. :D

We appreciate the time you put into these things.