Renamed: Open Test Servers/preview & Improving The Beta Experience

[Wojek]

First-off, since there is no beta-feedback subforum, I will just try this in the general discussion

If you read a few threads on these forums, especially after patches or big updates, there's quite often a big outcry of rage and or frustration. These complaints often get told that they should just deal with it, since Warframe is still in beta. While technically correct, I think the beta testing could be vastly improved.

There doesn't seem to be a clear distinction between what is beta and what is still subject to change. Furthermore, there is no way of providing feedback other than these forums and there is no way of giving ingame feedback (unless I've missed it).

I think this needs to change! If we could clearly differentiate between what is live and beta content, coupled with some other fixes, it could speed up the improvement of Warframe greatly!

To prevent one big block of text I will continue with my suggestions in the next post

To honor theclinton's other thread, here is his opening post

]DE, I think its past time you opened up a OTW server with and select a nice amount of people to test your content before you release it to us all.

We all know its impossible for game devs to test a game in all the different weird ways a community can. I think it would be a good idea to do this.

The people can give you a different POV on things like the aura system, the nightmare system making things hard for newcomers and so on.

They can also prevent ridiculous things like the messed up loot table, Rapors attacks filling up your screen with smoke, making it near impossible to see him. Or Raptors attacks not exploding after he is dead, him getting stuck on cliffs, and so on.

I realize this is supposed to be beta but at this point it seems we could really use an test server to test some of this stuff before it gets in game.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Wojek

[Wojek]

For a game in which I had a great beta testing experience, let me use a wellknown game as an example - World of Warcraft.

The beta gave you free access to the game, but there was always an ingame button for feedback. This was quite important because you could report everything as you were playing. I think there should be some kind of in-game questionares which you can fill out, which check basic points like "Is this weapon effective enough to be used without mods?" or "Does this weapon provide a different play-style?" and so on.

 

This should be tied with something else from testing in WoW. After the beta, it's future patches were open to player-testing on the patch servers. There you could try almost all new content, with everything you'd need provided (max lvl charcters, arena gear, free talent reset and so on).
However in Warframe any new patch is thrown at the players with no real or clear indication on what the Patch will entail and on Top of that we have to provide everything ourselves and might even pay to test some things. This needs to change! A beta is supposed to give feedback and constructive critism to it's developers.
If we, as the players, are supposed to test out new guns, why don't we get them for free for a trial period of like two weeks and then when they are properly balanced they get removed again (yes, I know this sounds like "I want the new toys now!!!" but it"s not, since the new content is taken "lost" after it was implemented for real, but I was never sad to "loose" my test server character because I never put any work into him - I could actually try new cool things and then get them for real on the live servers).

 

Then we can always provide feedback on the new content, without immediate cries of rage and/or frustrations, because there would be a clear distinction between live and beta parts of the game.

[Ced23Ric]

The necessity for a focus group/test audience is something we've been talking to DE about before. The thought is not a new one, and has been planted in DE's ear. For now, nothing concrete is planned, which is just that: an observation from the outside. Currently, the entire game is beta and subject to change. That is understood. As for future content and previews, we'll see what DE comes up with.

 

PS: inb4 "founders should test!" - Nah. If there are going to be preview tests, it needs to be all kinds of players.

 

PPS: Bumping is generally not condoned.

[Bakim0n0]

PS: inb4 "founders should test!" - Nah. If there are going to be preview tests, it needs to be all kinds of players.

 

PPS: Bumping is generally not condoned.

True on both counts. It would need a range of players from the super tuned "have everything" player to the lower range newer f2p player because changes need to be considered from multiple angles. What is acceptable for a user with every frame maxed and forma'ed with a potent arsenal also has to fit someone mastery rank 3 who doesn't have plat and both of those kinds of people play WF. (for appropriate level)

Edited July 18, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Wojek]

The necessity for a focus group/test audience is something we've been talking to DE about before. The thought is not a new one, and has been planted in DE's ear. For now, nothing concrete is planned, which is just that: an observation from the outside. Currently, the entire game is beta and subject to change. That is understood. As for future content and previews, we'll see what DE comes up with.

PS: inb4 "founders should test!" - Nah. If there are going to be preview tests, it needs to be all kinds of players.

PPS: Bumping is generally not condoned.

Great, thanks for the confirmation. I still think that it should be a way higher priority on DE's list! For example why can't we make polls on the forums or why don't DE start them? Could we get a sticky for this, much like the stealth feedback thread in the gameplay feedback forums?

P.s. Removed the bump

Edited July 18, 2013 by Wojek

[Ced23Ric]

I still think that it should be a way higher priority on DE's list!

 

Let me put it this way: Rebecca wakes up every day in her DE office, with a cluster of Planeteers chirping in her ear. it's not forgotten, and it's actively being pursued. Such changes will come slowly, though, because DE's trust has been abused multiple times over. Datamining is one thing - but people that agreed to secrecy leaking stuff are a concern. So, if DE's lets people in, there will be NDAs, controlled environments and only small groups. Have to be trustworthy people that won't leak a thing. Babysteps. :)

[Wojek]

Let me put it this way: Rebecca wakes up every day in her DE office, with a cluster of Planeteers chirping in her ear. it's not forgotten, and it's actively being pursued. Such changes will come slowly, though, because DE's trust has been abused multiple times over. Datamining is one thing - but people that agreed to secrecy leaking stuff are a concern. So, if DE's lets people in, there will be NDAs, controlled environments and only small groups. Have to be trustworthy people that won't leak a thing. Babysteps. :)

Well, if you look at the changes I suggested, I can't understand why there is a need to only do it with a few people.

The test servers can wait, but the tags showing which stuff is beta are just that, tags.

Furthermore, I'd like to know why there are no polls on the forums?

[Ced23Ric]

Well, if you look at the changes I suggested, I can't understand why there is a need to only do it with a few people.

 

Like I said above: previewing coming content is an iffy topic, because the positions where DE already gives out bits of preview information are regularly compromised to outside platforms. There is currently little reason to trust that any larger group would not do the same. Thusly, a small group of trusted individuals, under NDA, is the only feasible way for DE to approach previewing content.

 

The test servers can wait, but the tags showing which stuff is beta are just that, tags.

 

The entire game is beta. I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. All features are on the testbed, all features are subject to change as necessary.

 

Furthermore, I'd like to know why there are no polls on the forums?

 

My point of view: What would you use a poll for? What would 350,000 other users use polls for? "Rate me, 1 out of 10!" is as much a poll as "What is your opinion on XYZ?" - and even further, what good would a poll do? When DE wants to know something, they will fire up a poll. Everything else would just become a shouting match, a popularity contest and also, have little meaning (voting on something DE didn't put up for a vote) and high expectations ("I voted, why is there no reaction?"). There are few advantages, and many disadvantages to letting everyone post polls.

 

Keep in mind, this is not DE's official stance, just my interpretation.

[Wojek]

Like I said above: previewing coming content is an iffy topic, because the positions where DE already gives out bits of preview information are regularly compromised to outside platforms. There is currently little reason to trust that any larger group would not do the same. Thusly, a small group of trusted individuals, under NDA, is the only feasible way for DE to approach previewing content.

Well, this my personal opinio, but if stuff gets leaked anyway, why not make it public in the first place? But this is not my main concern here.

The entire game is beta. I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. All features are on the testbed, all features are subject to change as necessary.

The idea behind the tags is to show which features are bound to be under construction quite soon. For example, many people complained that they "wasted" a forma because of the aura polarities. My reasoning is, that if it would have been clear that this is bound to change within a few days/a week, then many people would have waited, because they couldn't know if their investment would pay off.

Another option would be to offer resets or refunds incases like this. I know that DE wants this to be a game where your choices have consequences, but as you said yourself, this game is still a beta and not the final game.

My point of view: What would you use a poll for? What would 350,000 other users use polls for? "Rate me, 1 out of 10!" is as much a poll as "What is your opinion on XYZ?" - and even further, what good would a poll do? When DE wants to know something, they will fire up a poll. Everything else would just become a shouting match, a popularity contest and also, have little meaning (voting on something DE didn't put up for a vote) and high expectations ("I voted, why is there no reaction?"). There are few advantages, and many disadvantages tou letting everyone post polls.

Keep in mind, this is not DE's official stance, just my interpretation.

Yeah, I agree with you that the polls don't have to be startable to whole userbase, but I've yet to see a poll coming from DE. I dunno, maybe I've missed them all. Edited July 18, 2013 by Wojek

[demonaii]

First-off, since there is no beta-feedback subforum, I will just try this in the general discussion

If you read a few threads on these forums, especially after patches or big updates, there's quite often a big outcry of rage and or frustration. These complaints often get told that they should just deal with it, since Warframe is still in beta. While technically correct, I think the beta testing could be vastly improved.

There doesn't seem to be a clear distinction between what is beta and what is still subject to change. Furthermore, there is no way of providing feedback other than these forums and there is no way of giving ingame feedback (unless I've missed it).

I think this needs to change! If we could clearly differentiate between what is live and beta content, coupled with some other fixes, it could speed up the improvement of Warframe greatly!

To prevent one big block of text I will continue with my suggestions in the next post

To honor theclinton's other thread, here is his opening post

 

What if I told YOU this will happen?!

[Ced23Ric]

The idea behind the tags is to show which features are bound to be under construction quite soon.

 

This is not really feasible. Features that may not be planned to be worked on soon may require fast action and features that are under scrutiny may work better than expected and remain stable. Many changes are bound to user feedback and can swing either way. Sorry. no one can predict the feature. For all intents and purposes: Nothing is beyond the grasp of a change.

 

Yeah, I agree with you that the polls don't have to be startable to whole userbase, but I've yet to see a poll coming from DE. I dunno, maybe I've missed them all.

 

DE has polls, in design council. Aside from that, DE prefers written-out feedback over mere voting. Voting is pretty pointless, because the forum crowd is only a fraction of the playerbase, whereas a written-out feedback post actually gives food for thought. On the forums, we are not convincing by numbers, but by arguments.

[Wojek]

This is not really feasible. Features that may not be planned to be worked on soon may require fast action and features that are under scrutiny may work better than expected and remain stable. Many changes are bound to user feedback and can swing either way. Sorry. no one can predict the feature. For all intents and purposes: Nothing is beyond the grasp of a change.

All right, but I have another question partially related to this. What about refunds for freshly implemented features. Since this is a beta and we are supposed to test all features, even a casual player could test out more aspects of the game and give his feedback on it. This is connected to my next question, too.

DE has polls, in design council. Aside from that, DE prefers written-out feedback over mere voting. Voting is pretty pointless, because the forum crowd is only a fraction of the playerbase, whereas a written-out feedback post actually gives food for thought. On the forums, we are not convincing by numbers, but by arguments.

Could we get some guidelines on how to format our posts then? Although I have seen many well-made posts here, with great suggestions, there's also a lot of posts that may have valid points, but just don't present them well or it's not entirely clear that it's just a complaint, a test report, an open discussion or something different, if it's from a hardcore player or regarding casual play and so on.

Furthermore what about ingame questionaires or polls - those would always be availiable to all players. Then you could get the opinion of all players and not just the vocal minority that frequent the forums.

[Ced23Ric]

What about refunds for freshly implemented features?

 

Since it is highly subjective on what is grounds for a Platinum refund, and since it opens up a huge can of worms, a regularly applied refund via Support is highly unlikely. If an item is added and out of conjunction with a different thing is terribly overpowered, many people will go forth and purchase it. When that item gets rightzfully brought in line with the rest, these people would ask for refunds. If a refund is given, it opens up precedence cases, if it is denied on such a specialised occasion, it will be interpreted as subjective and cash-grabby by DE. Based on that, consider balancing-based refunds a no-go.

Yet, Support does refund on cases of mispurchases (such as accidentially buying a second Sentinel, as happened with me). This feature is to be used with caution and respect, though - attempting to weasel one's way through to circumvent standing policy would turn the situation sour. Exploited helpers become disgruntled fast.

In short: Too much exploit potential and subjectiveness to be feasible.

 

Could we get some guidelines on how to format our posts then?

 

I usually suggest this: What, Why, How and a TL;DR. The more concise it is, the more people will read it. If additional media is present, such as videos, graphics, etc. it usually catches more traction. Generating a post with proper grammer, logical feedback and no overly strong emotions usually gathers high levels of traction, then generates DE dev and/or ComMod attention, and is then pusehd throug hthe ranks towards DE.

 

Furthermore what about ingame questionaires or polls?

 

Will present to Rebecca and see about it. Can't answer for now. DE seems to have a policy of not spamming their users with email as much as other games do.

[Wojek]

Since it is highly subjective on what is grounds for a Platinum refund, and since it opens up a huge can of worms, a regularly applied refund via Support is highly unlikely. If an item is added and out of conjunction with a different thing is terribly overpowered, many people will go forth and purchase it. When that item gets rightzfully brought in line with the rest, these people would ask for refunds. If a refund is given, it opens up precedence cases, if it is denied on such a specialised occasion, it will be interpreted as subjective and cash-grabby by DE. Based on that, consider balancing-based refunds a no-go.

Yet, Support does refund on cases of mispurchases (such as accidentially buying a second Sentinel, as happened with me). This feature is to be used with caution and respect, though - attempting to weasel one's way through to circumvent standing policy would turn the situation sour. Exploited helpers become disgruntled fast.

In short: Too much exploit potential and subjectiveness to be feasible.

 

Well, alright, but consider this. If you'd only apply this to completely new stuff (this where the "beta tags" would have come into play) and not only to platinum bought pieces, there would be aclearly defined space where you can get refunds (because the player got it for the sake of testing)' with no room to argue on the testers side. Although I do understand that it won't work, because of the danger of it being exploitable.

What about free give aways of new gear then? If something gets released, it's given to each playeras a prototype version (for example "prototype dread"). Then everybody can test it how well it performs and after a week or two it gets removed again. This has to be made clear beforehand of course, but it would provide a way to test new gear without people complaining that they invested time and or money into something that gets nerfed right away.

 

I usually suggest this: What, Why, How and a TL;DR. The more concise it is, the more people will read it. If additional media is present, such as videos, graphics, etc. it usually catches more traction. Generating a post with proper grammer, logical feedback and no overly strong emotions usually gathers high levels of traction, then generates DE dev and/or ComMod attention, and is then pusehd throug hthe ranks towards DE.

Could we get this stickied or something?

 

Will present to Rebecca and see about it. Can't answer for now. DE seems to have a policy of not spamming their users with email as much as other games do.

Cool, thanks, but I was not talking about emails, but rather a discreet ingame tab or pop-up. Another f2p beta had this implemented quite nicely, but sadly I'm using a tablet and can't provide a screenshot (it was star conflict). There was also a small reward each time you answered the questionaire, so there was an incentive for everybody to particate (maybe give out another spin on the log-in reward). The questions itself were simple stuff like do "what do you think is the most powerful weapon type" or "how do you like the new font".

[Ced23Ric]

[Prototypes]

 

Interesting concept. I'll cook something up and talk to the bosslady.

 

[How to provide Feedback]

 

Mhmm. I can write a littel sticky, but usually people who read those already know how to provide feedback and those who don't read them, well ... ;)

 

[ingame Polls]

 

I played Star Conflict (Rank 20 PvP Rating, with only 9 players in the Corp. Aww yeah.) - I know exactly what you mean. Will formulate a document and present to DE.

[Wojek]

Interesting concept. I'll cook something up and talk to the bosslady.

Great, thanks a lot!

Mhmm. I can write a littel sticky, but usually people who read those already know how to provide feedback and those who don't read them, well ... ;)

Yeah, that's probably true - what about adding a form, so if you want to create a topic you get the chance to use that, if you want to provide feedback.

 

I played Star Conflict (Rank 20 PvP Rating, with only 9 players in the Corp. Aww yeah.) - I know exactly what you mean. Will formulate a document and present to DE.

Nice, I think this is what DE is currently missing in their feedback - although many good ideas come from the forums, it always seems to be vocal minorities. (Well, at least to me, I just can't tell if the playerbase really is interested in certain things. For example, I don't really want new mods and tilesets, weapons and frames, but rather fixes for all the existing ones. But what about the other players? Does DE really have to put out new stuff out every two weeks? This is just. A little rant on the side, but I'd just like to see some official numbers on stuff like that.)

[SirAuron]

Would be nice if they sent out emails for events so people don't miss out on cool things like Snipetron V.

[Cleesus]

Its personal now Ced!!! haha After I gave you such a glowing complement :

 

BF is hilarious and tends to give some thoughtful feedback. Ced is cool too. I have barely seen any of the other ones so idk.

 

but back im topic. I support the idea Of an OTW server and im glad it is already in DEs mind (I was sure they must have thought about it at some point)

 

Thanks for letting me know that little bit of info Ced. I hope they get around to making one before the PS4 comes out.