(PSN)TH3NAML3SS
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Posts posted by (PSN)TH3NAML3SS
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1 hour ago, OoKeNnEtHoO said:
So impact knocks down and removes armor?
Sounds like everyone will just switch from Slash and Corrosive to impact.
Like the above poster mentioned, this isn't a fix.
It is a bandaid done by shifting a problem with some damage types to another.
Blast knocks enemies down. Impact just staggers them for a second; It's barely noticeable, but would help Hammers buy enough time to combo properly without getting mauled, which is why I initially included it (I have now removed that capability however, due to Blast proc interactions with the edit I made). More importantly, the Puncture proc I've proposed ignores armor, so if anything players would simply prioritize Puncture weapons over making Corrosive - which is exactly what the damage type is supposed to be there for - so I'd hardly call that a problem. The changes are also obviously not simply "shifting" damage types around when there's nothing equivalent to the Puncture proc I've proposed, and when IPS are nearly universal while the innate Corrosive element is exceedingly rare; I didn't shift options, I expanded them.
On the subject of "band-aid" changes in general. I hate band-aid changes - especially in Warframe - just like everyone else. They are rarely thought all the way through and generally are not meaningful enough to address the problems they were made for (read: bullet holes). I myself made a huge oversight of that sort in this very proposal, which is why I asked for extra eyes to look at it. Given the choice between band-aid fixes and overhauls however, I would never declare that overhauls are always better because there's always a strong possibilty that an overhaul will break something that already worked, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" and/or create a new set of problems equally significant to the previous ones (exactly like what we've had with Melee 1.0 and 2.0).
That said, the changes I've proposed are not "band-aid" changes, they're a fix to the foundation of the game with heavy ramifications:
- ALL Puncture weapons & rapid attacking Impact weapons become effective tools for getting past Armor, irrespective of their strength or mods
- The two armored factions consequently gain equal footing with the two unarmored factions
- Players now build weapons according to the diverse array of enemy unarmored resistances, instead of the single Armored resistance
- Corrosive becomes the first directly defensive damage type
- Overall endless difficulty drops for min-maxing players (actual concern)
- Beam weapons lose their effectiveness against Armor (other serious concern, no one mentioned yet)
End result: Armor no longer monopolizes builds leaving players free to choose weapons according to enemy health types thereby legitimizing 6 more damage types and expanding the pool of usable weapons and mods meteorically. That's a huge deal, no matter how you look at it. This is not a perfect change, I've already listed two of my main concerns with it above, but the point is that just because a change is simple does not mean it's small. That is why we have to consider everything a change would effect and try to imagine what the game would look like if it were to be implemented before we immediately fawn over it or write it off.
My overarching goal for this post is to help Warframe fix its foundation so that DE can continue to build on top of it. Right now, in mine and many others' opinion this game has core structural issues that have stifled the usage and development of a truly mountainous portion of the game's content. Armor scaling is one of those structural issues, and until players have a systemized answer to it the game will always necessitate BS tactics and/or a meta-game revolving around it.
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2 hours ago, Darkvramp said:
What you are proposing has some good points, make the IPS damage system better and more of a choice rather than just slash damage. That does not work however, since IPS damage mods do not work like elemental damage mods. You will still use the elemental damage system over the IPS system, because they elemental damage system can outright do more damage with the mods in the game.
Thank you for this comment. I knew there was a core calculation I was forgetting and this is exactly it. I'm not particularly concerned with the dramatically higher total damage of elemental damage mods. All I'm concerned with is getting past Armor regardless of whether the base IPS damage is on par with everything else. However, as you've pointed out, the higher damage brought on by elemental mods would kneecap the proc rate of IPS status conditions. So, additional proposal (I'll be adding in to my original post): IPS status procs would also need to be calculated separately from elemental procs. For example, a weapon with 105 Impact, 100 Cold, & 200 Corrosive damage could proc Impact and Corrosive simultaneously on a single hit.
This should achieve the targetted build diversity while keeping Armor manageable. And since the IPS procs are predominantly concerned with getting through Armor, their stacking on top of elemental procs shouldn't break the gameplay, but would absolutely be felt against Grineer and the Corrupted. Again, thanks for pointing out this glaring flaw.
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NOTE: The discussion below contains common-sense ideas, so if I’m repeating propositions others have made before I apologize for my ignorance, but am glad that others are thinking along similar lines. Also, there will be a TL;DR at the end
if you want to make me cry.Short Proposal:
Base IPS around circumventing Armor.
Impact - Become Corrosive*/strip enemy armor permanently every time it procs.
Puncture - Pierce 50%-100% of the target’s Armor when it procs (i.e. this is no longer a continuous status condition). Math/testing is required to work out exactly how much piercing would keep it in line with Slash & Impact. All I’m certain of is 35% piercing is not strong enough to deal with lvl 200+ Heavy Gunners as effectively as Slash, which should be the least effective of the three damage types at handling Armor.
Slash – Either remain untouched or slightly nerf from 35%->25% True damage/tick. I can’t math this out yet.
Corrosive would subsequently evolve into a better version of Puncture’s current proc, reducing Enemy Damage output by a percentage and stacking (as Corrosive currently does) with a limit at 80-90% damage reduction (Effect gradually wears off against bosses).
EDIT: IPS status procs are calculated independently from Elemental status procs, meaning one IPS and one Elemental status condition can proc simultaneously on each hit. I consequently removed Impact's staggering effect for being too similar to the Blast proc.
Not-so-short Reasoning:
It is neither hyperbolic nor controversial to acknowledge that enemy Armor scaling almost single-handedly defines weapon building/team composition/the entire metagame. It is the reason why Slash, Corrosive, and Viral are the most desired damage types, why Corrosive Projection is still deemed more important than all other auras, and why so many players spend an entire primary weapon mod slot on simply procing the Slash condition (Hunter Munitions). I shouldn’t have to point out why that’s a problem, but in case I do…
The damage types are numerically balanced against one another in accordance with the armor types present in the game. However, they are not even slightly balanced against the enemies players have to kill. Magnetic, for instance, breaks through Shields, but only 1.2/4 enemy types in Warframe (the 0.2 are Corrupted Ospreys and Crewmen) have Shields in the first place and outside of Shield enhancement sorties no enemies have Shields large enough to justify the damage type. Similarly, Gas is effective against unarmored flesh, but – again - only 1.5/4 factions (the 0.5 are non-mechanical corpus units) have exposed flesh, and flesh in general is vulnerable against everything. Gas is therefore non-essential against any particular enemy nor even desirable for general play [outside of clearly unintended finisher shenanigans]. Heat, Cold, Electric, and Toxin have slightly different circumstances in the sense that they all boast minor damage fluctuations relative to their dual-status counterparts. But, while this keeps the damage types from ever becoming meaningfully harmful it also prevents them from ever creating a significant enough advantage to target when weapon building. Mind you, I don’t have a problem with that inherently since every damage type has a status proc that would still justify their use. However, excluding Cold’s slow, none of the single damage types have consequential status procs either, especially when compared to dual stat procs. Consequently, players are ALWAYS losing both damage and utility [AKA: building ineffectively] when fielding a single damage type instead of a dual. Finally, all 6 of the damage types I just discussed are completely worthless against Armored enemies lvl 70+ of which 2.5/4 of the game’s enemy types possess.
In sum, “there’s little reason to prioritize any damage type other than Viral, Slash, and Corrosive when they are the only universal tools that get past Armor AND are also effective against the thing behind the Armor.” – Me, 2013 (when I abandoned my PC account)
More broadly, over half of Warframe’s damage types don’t address the game’s obstacles, so they go almost completely ignored by the player base in favor of those that do. That’s bad.
Additionally, intentionally or not, Melee 3.0 removing combo counter interactions will “flatten” players’ damage output by limiting crits (indirect Blood Rush nerf) and minimizing hard damage scaling (heavy melee cannot possibly counteract this), making higher level content all the more impenetrable and further increasing our dependence on the damage types that circumvent Armor. That’s also bad.
Lastly, offensive Warframes are judged, according to how effectively they can deal with enemy Armor. Fortunately, few damage dealers currently struggle with Armor, however those that do (read: Ember) are almost always bypassed for endless missions due to that limitation (hence the “useless past lvl 30 mindset players still possess regarding the frame”). That’s less bad, but still bad.
The holistic, but complicated answer to the ubiquitous Armor issue is to completely rework all of the damage types to address the game’s obstacles (enemies, environmental hazards, scaling etc.) and change Armor scaling entirely.
Buuuuut, that’s a lot of work, and - no offense - but given DE's track record with massive sweeping changes, a change of that scale is likely to create as many problems as it would solve.
The much simpler and safer answer is to gear all of IPS towards dealing with Armor and leave everything else untouched (save for Corrosive). Why? For many reasons including, but not limited to:
i. Breaking up the nigh omnipresent Corrosive-Slash synergy
ii. Reducing the significance of Hunter Munitions without invalidating it
iii. Substantially increasing the viability of pure IPS builds and all Impact & Puncture weapons
iv. Introducing new & welcome status proc dynamics (e.g. Cold-Impact, Viral-Puncture)
v. Complimenting the damage type chart currently in the game
vi. Increasing the playability of high level content by reducing player frustration and expanding player options
vii. Significantly reducing the need to completely rework all damage types for a theoretical Damage 3.0
I don’t think I’ll be able to completely explain each of those points without a wall of explanation, so to save you the trouble of reading that theoretical monstrosity, I’ll simply explain my justification for the proposed changes and ideally that will clarify the seven claims above. Okay? Okay.
Slash I thought should mirror reality and be the least effective tool for dealing with Armor. Luckily, since Slash is already a less effective tool for handling armor than Corrosive 2.0/my proposed Impact procs and has an effect that doesn’t even acknowledge Armor’s existence, I don’t think it needs to change in any meaningful way. That said, if the melee weapon rework raises the power of melee weapons by a significant enough level to make slash procs essentially insta-kill high level enemies, then the strength of the procs will need to be nerfed (I’m guessing 20-25% down from 35% would be sufficient).
Impact in Damage 2.0, has neutral effectiveness against all forms of Armor and is a decent form of punching through armor in real life…by virtue of smashing it into oblivion. The closest already existing mechanic that embodies that quality is the Corrosive proc, and its effect of gradually working down enemy defenses compliments Impact’s place as the only physical damage type with a primed mod; Impact has the most raw power of IPS and (theoretically) doesn’t need many procs to make its power shine. So, I gave it a somewhat slow the highly consistent answer to the equation – stacking a single proc many times. There is one reservation however I have with this proposal, and testing (or further input) will be required to identify its significance: the most notorious impact weapons - hammers - are slow which exacerbates the rate at which players can break through enemy armor. This can be addressed by increasing the armor reduction/proc, but again, testing or more math would be required to work out whether that would be game breaking and I’m currently a bit too tired/lazy to calculate the results. It’s also worth noting that the other three notorious Impact-biased melee schools – Fists, Sparring, and Staff – all strike many times in quick succession, possessing fantastic synergy with innate Armor reduction procs and potentially invalidating the need for an adjustment.
That being said, the Impact changes above inherently necessitate a change to Corrosive which is one sacred cow I was honestly afraid to poke. Keyword: “was.” After mulling over how the game’s damage would flatten with the IPS changes, I hypothesized that newer players would more quickly recognize the value of status procs (particularly the first time they notice a puncture proc dramatically raising their damage against a Grineer Heavy Gunner), and thus be more attuned to the possibilities of weapon building. Hypothetically, this knowledge would increase their likelihood of reaching higher level content leading to a larger volume of players fighting high level enemies…and getting frustrated by the barren wasteland of non-warframe dependent defensive tools in the game. Annnnd that’s when the lightbulb in my head exploded: make Corrosive stack a damage reduction instead of an armor reduction. Low level play would go all but unchanged due to the difficulty of consistently stacking a particular status effect during the early game and high level play/sanctuary onslaught/endless missions would finally become playable through smart team composition and weapon building as opposed to borderline offensively smelly cheese. Best of all, Corrosive would no longer completely dominate the game due to its utter inefficacy at enhancing TTK, but would still be used due to its general effectiveness against most armor types and defensive value.
[Sidenote: the new Saryn would become a MUCH better team player and tank without a single direct change (though Molt still needs a serious once over)].
[And yes, I also have thoughts regarding the potentially reduced difficulty of the entire game, but I’ll save those for the concluding thoughts at the end.]
Last, but most significant of all, Puncture is the tool that players should be leaning on for getting through Armor. Not only does this match up with reality (read: common sense), it also aligns with the damage formulas currently existing in the game, which should act as a preexisting incentive for players to use it. The immediate 50+% Armor reduction would make Armor all but an afterthought for high status chance puncture-biased weapons, and naturally compliments their admittedly low base damage. The end result would ideally be a class of weapons with a truly consistent damage output, regardless of enemy level. This wouldn’t be overpowered because players can already achieve this effect (& more thanks to the combo counter) through current armor invalidating tools, and I fear it might actually be underpowered relative to the other two damage types if the amount of armor piercing is too low (again, 50% piercing absolutely does not hold up when enemies start hovering around lvl 200).
Conclusion/The closest thing to a TL;DR
This dynamic retains, compliments, and reinforces the damage type chart currently in place: Impact still beats Shields, Slash still beats Flesh, and Puncture still beats Armor better than the other two damage types. Although these changes, in addition to the Corrosive rework may spark fears of the game becoming easier, I'd like to remind you that: a.) circumventing Armor (through CP) is already standard practice in the game and b.) even a 90% reduction to a level 200 enemy’s damage still warrants a swift death for most frames [you can easily see this first hand by playing Gara in ESO]. The big difference is that Corrosive’s damage reduction would allow tank frames to do their job longer, and IPS’s near universality among weapons would ensure that players almost always have access to Armor penetration regardless of how they build their weapon. Further, since the IPS methods of getting through Armor would be almost equally effective yet functionally diverse, players would have reason to build their weapons to prioritize the weapon's main stats rather than trying to force them to conform to a Slash-meta via Hunter Munitions, or dropping them entirely because they can’t fit in with it – ostensibly, everything that is viable numerically would become viable practically.
The one colossal bugbear that this change wouldn’t address is the limited existence of enemies incentivizing the other least used damage types - Magnetic, Electric, and Toxin. However, I don’t think anything short of designing entirely new enemies, changing or completely reworking existing ones could truly fix that. So, collectively I believe this IPS change is among the best concurrent steps DE could take to ensure Melee 3.0 is a success, and should help make the entire game a little more enjoyable. Is there something else I missed here that undercuts all of this? (I didn't mention Radiation, but I assume we all understand why). Any other thoughts on IPS and or Melee 3.0?
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I really like where his head is at and agree with both of the ideas in his premise:
"If we're going to spend our combo counter on a single attack, the attack has to be worth the cost. Making an attack worth the cost is going to require shoring up the melee weapon's functionality, not just increasing their damage." (paraphrasing)
My one concern however is not balance - because if DE were to make each weapon capable of handling its weaknesses (e.g. daggers & hammers having a means of striking multiple targets, whips having a strong single target move, etc.), then they would all possess equitable utility - but rather why DE would not simply improve the stances instead? Two attack buttons opens many more combat possibilities, but stances already exist and provide a space for the utility he's suggesting, so I don't see why they wouldn't simply leverage that system instead. I would vastly prefer that DE use heavy attacks for specialized commands instead of just more damage because that's the only way I can see a second melee attack button as justified over holding down the button. However, that would take work and DE would probably prefer to take the much lazier path of simply repurposing existing attacks within the melee stances as heavy attacks. That would make me a sad panda.
That said, if DE were to go the route he's suggesting, then I think it would make even more sense if they just went full Dynasty Warriors and made Heavy attacks akin to Charge attacks.*
*For those unfamiliar with that series, players could perform up to 6 Normal attacks in one combo, and at any point during the combo they could end it with a Charge attack that would change based on how many Normal attacks they initiated. Adapted to Warframe, combos would like this:
light>heavy
light>light>heavy
light>light>light>heavy
etc.
With each heavy attack having a different effect based on the weapon category (and possibly the stance) and possessing scaleable damage. That would make meleeing a LOT more dynamic, encourage players to not simply mash the light attack button or spin2win, and learn their weapon combos.
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As someone who has been playing Loki for 5 years now and started with him on PC, I think you're just not very creative. Switch Teleport is more useful on the Plains than anywhere else, because in addition to its standard function as an enemy displacer & panic button, it speeds up your travel time (Enemy/Decoy switching), and hastens both of the escort mission types by letting you Switch Teleport drones and operatives. With the augment and a decent duration, you can even keep the targets protected from all damage indefinitely.
When using Switch Teleport offensively, you are supposed to pull dangerous/problem enemies out of position (most notably Ancient Healers and Bursas) to make it easier to take out everything they were surrounding (Ancient Healers), or the original target (Bursas). If you're quick, you can outright kill them by teleporting them over cliffs. If you're clever you can teleport them into inescapable positions. If you're a team player, you can teleport annoying enemies into your allies' line of fire. No, it doesn't need to "open enemies up to finishers" or debuff them any more than it already functionally does.
When Switch Teleporting players, you must be smart about what's going to happen - switching with allies in front of you without a reason is just trolling. Loki is fast, and will usually be in front of his teammates, so switch with those slower allies to speed them up (this is where the Loki escort strategy originates from). Loki's other three abilties protect him from most forms of damage, so if you notice an ally is in trouble, you can almost always switch with them without dying in the process (and if you would, take Savior Decoy to cheat death). Alternatively, you can switch with downed players to pull them out of a hot zone, so that you don't have to incur any risk of AoE damage in the first place. Lastly, if you're using the augment, you can also give active allies some extra breathing room at a moment's notice, and don't have to worry about enemy attacks while positioning yourself, because you have Stealth and Disarm as well.
I'd also be remiss not to mention that the Decoy+Switch Teleport combo completely nullifies the difficulty of all Corpus Spy missions and half of the game's spy missions in general, but Switch Teleport's value should already be apparent at this point.
The simplicity, versatility, and objectivity of the ability is what makes it powerful, and the only reason people complain about it year after year is because they obviously don't think more than 1 step ahead of their teleport or lack the basic creativity to see opportunities to use it. No, it doesn't need to change, and frankly your suggestions are terrible, TC.
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It's not bad programming or a bug. It is working as intended, and has been well documented by the community as part of eidolon hunting.
The lures despawn before the eidolon does, so that it has the opportunity to escape. If you're slow, it always denies you a capture (that night), but doesn't neccessarily prevent a kill if you're on the last stage of the fight. I don't see how you could think this is an error when it's clearly serving a function.
As for changing it, I disagree as it is currently has a useful purpose in damage-gating the content, and enforcing a bonus condition for completing the mission with an additional reward. Any competent game designer would make the same decision - reward players for putting in extra effort and performing above and beyond the baseline expectation, but don't punish the players who can't.
It sucks that you missed out on the capture, but you still got the kill. If you want the capture, learn from your mistakes, double check your loadout, tighten up your team work/composition, and try again.
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32 minutes ago, Chipputer said:
I summarized my thoughts on Harrow to my buddies as, "Harrow wants to be good but he just isn't."
I then rambled into our discord about what I think, so I'll just copy and paste that here:
I'm not one to typically post on forums, but that is one of the poorest assessments of a frame I've ever read, and demonstrates a severe lack of pragmatic creativity. The only way I can think to properly refute it (and ideally shed some light on how to play this frame in its current state) is just to deconstruct that "rambling" piece by piece.
33 minutes ago, Chipputer said:there's a lot of problems he has
1. There's no good way to mod him -- He needs duration but he also needs power. Casting speed is almost a must (because otherwise you take forever to use your 3 and 4). On top of that if you need to mod him for efficiency in order to actually use thurible and other skills at the same time
You are correct in that Harrow needs Duration and Power Strength. However, this is not difficult to achieve as their mods do not conflict. A sample Harrow build should look something like this: https://goo.gl/WvD8oB (I'm using Volt as an example because warframe-builder does not yet have a Harrow option). He does not need casting speed, Range (beyond neutral), or Efficiency (beyond neutral), though the latter is appreciated when available.
2. Thurible only restores energy on kill -- self explanatory. Trinity overdoes it but at least she doesn't require you to kill. The longer your TTK the less return on investment.
It is not self explanatory. The amount of energy restored on kill can surpass the Energy restored by EV provided that you have high Power Strength and (Primed) Flow. The Thurible requires that you pay with time upfront, with the perk of not having to pay at all while in use. Consequently, you can (and should) pay for your Thurible while in transit to your next target in order to eliminate a TTK reduction. Trinity pays for her energy with time (a little over one second) on every cast. Thurible's base duration is 30 seconds, so with the build listed above you're always paying for 73.5 seconds, regardless of how long you charge it. Requiring you to kill to receive the benefit is not a flaw on Harrow specifically due to his hard CC that lets you overcome Thurible's range limitations and always reap its maximum energy gain. This strength is especially obvious when considering that Trinity, pragmatically speaking, has the same kill requirement outside of a pure EV build, which only has its utility at the cost of 3/4 of her abilities.
3. Even with nearly 200% duration the invuln from his 4 isn't nearly long enough to do anything with it -- Sure I can give myself a minute of energy regen but I can't even get a full revive out with my ult which is one of the few things it's useful for
The build I listed has 245% duration. The Invulnerability duration is 14.7 seconds for the entire team in a 50+m radius, no Range mods required. You can do a lot with that including getting a full revive. More broadly speaking, however, you should always be using with the highest duration you can muster.
4. Allies hitting and killing enemies takes away from your ability to use penance and thurible, yourself -- you heal by dealing damage and you heal your energy by killing. Zenurik or nothing
Allies hitting enemies, helps you as this makes it easier to kill enemies. Allies killing enemies, isn't a problem as long you can still score kills. In low level content (enemy level =<40) this may be problematic, but it's also not a serious fault as no one should be struggling enough on those levels to even need constant energy restoration. In high level content, that's a completely ridiculous statement, as no frame outside of Octavia can kill enmasse via a large AoE through warframe powers without struggling. Also, I don't know why you mentioned Penance. You only need to hit targets with the ability to generate overshields & extend the buff duration. Killing isn't required.
5. Condemn, while good, has next to no verticality so it's impossible to use on varied terrain in any respectable manner
True, but not much of an issue considering this game's map design.
Scaling will eventually make his only useful powers his first and fourth, due to one shotting making healing useless and not being able to kill making thurible difficult to justify
Even if we account for the keyword of the first sentence being "eventually" (read: after many hours of an endless mission), it's still just plain wrong. Penance still grants an absurd reload speed and fire rate boost with high Power Strength (which again, the build I provided has), greatly boosting your DPS - especially in conjunction with Convenant - and keeping his Thurible usable. And you can realistically use all of these abilities together due to your insanely high Duration that makes all of them last over a minute.
His fourth will eventually be outscaled due to the first half (and it's not even half, it's like 1/3 or 1/4) being always useful but the second half only giving you up to 200% crit on headshots only
Damage only gets you so far
None of this affects crit damage, by the way
Damage is one of the only three things that matters in this game and Harrow has it, along with hard CC (the second thing) and sustainability (the third thing). Guaranteed orange-red crits on a class of weapons with high crit multipliers that is otherwise unable to achieve, is the equivalent to multiplying your DPS 2-3 times over. You don't need additional Crit damage - you're already getting a ton more by design.
The rest of the post isn't worth replying to since it was already addressed. But, one thing that wasn't completely explored was the (dubious) importance of Range.
Range only affects 2 of Harrows abilities and only one - Thurible - in a significant fashion. As was correctly pointed out by @Chipputer, Condemn has almost no verticality to it, decreasing the value of high range on maps with a elevation changes. That said, Warframe is composed of rooms, not sprawling plains. So, the default 20m of hard CC is typically sufficient to stop all threats that are in front of you prior to an elevation change - especially when they're frozen for about 15 seconds. And, on the rare occasion that it isn't, you can easily recast the ability due to its low cost and short cast time. If the cone were broader, I'd reconsider Range's value on it, but at present, it's completely unnecessary.
That being said, the Thurible's range isn't as long as Condemn's, but it can simultaneously function as a good team energy restore. That utility alone is the sole reason you would seriously consider putting Range on this frame. However, because Duration conflicts with Range, and Range conflicts with Power strength, I personally think the cost is too severe to mod for it in any extreme - all four of his abilities benefit greatly from strength and duration, but only one benefits greatly from range. However, it's your call. The example build I provided is technically adapatable for Range (replace Narrow Minded with Power Drift), but I can't in good conscience recommend it. It feels more like DE should just extend the base range by 5 if they actually want it to be a team energy restore as opposed to the selfish one that it's currently designed for.
Oh, and with respect to shields, Redirection is a trap. Don't use it. Stick with Vitality.
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On 1/4/2017 at 0:09 PM, Landpaddle said:
At the moment, Titania works best as a DPS frame oriented predominantly around her fourth ability, Razorwing. This stems from several factors, namely:
- A small suite of survivability powers in the form of her 2--Tribute's evasion buff stacks--and immediate protection from harm with her 4, Razorwing.
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Long casting times for relatively ineffective 1-3.
- Natural Talent is almost mandatory for a debuff build.
- Low effective range of abilities without reducing Power Strength.
- The need to spam her 1-3 for maximum effect, almost as much as old, pre-rework Desecrate Nekros.
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Unreliable nature of her 1 and 3 and lack of synergy between powers.
- You cannot milk a buff via Tribute from an enemy that is affected by her 1, Spellbind.
I agree with all of the changes you suggested except for reducing the cost of Spellbind, ironically because I disagree with the premise that Titania works best as a DPS frame. She works best as a CC frame, but happens to be able to do some damage with Razorwing. With max Range and 83% duration Titania's Spellbind has a 12 meter radius, and 30 second duration making it one of the cheapest means of stat agnostic CC in the game. At the same time Lantern has a 50 meter radius and a 46 second duration, shutting down vast swathes of enemies, again regardless of level or capabilities (if it worked consistently) - you don't need to spam it. Ostensibly, she can crowd control better than every frame save for Nova and Nyx on very little energy making that her apparent primary role.
That said, the changes you suggested would improve her ability to CC while in Razorwing, which is exactly what she needs to make that ability more worthwhile to use, and I think closer to what the frame was intended to do.
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Interesting timing on this topic. Just last week, I also jotted down ideas on how to rework Limbo and surprisingly came up with many of the same or at least similar ideas. However, my analyses of Limbo differs a bit from yours leading me to some different solutions as well. So, I think it'd be best if I just posted my notes raw, then explained them through my replies:
SpoilerHow to fix Limbo:
- Remove Rift Walker and Rift Surge
- Update Banish so that it Banishes Limbo himself by aiming at nothing (basically Nezha w/Safeguard)
- Makes Haven even better by allowing Limbo to self-heal
- Not imbalanced b/c Limbo is made of glass
- Compliments Rift Surge changes
- Replace Rift Surge w/ A Vex Armor equivalent (when Banished, all damage absorbed increases damage dealt while in the rift, and decreases damage taken while outside of the rift)
- How to decrease damage?
- Evasion?
- Invisibility? Preferred
- Damage Mitigation?- Allows Limbo to fight outside of the Rift
- Cataclysm Augment or Update - Cataclysm traps all enemies within it + Deactivation counts as a detonation (similar to Titania's Lantern)
- The explosion can reliably deal serious damage
- Limbo becomes reliable at static defense (essentially Reverse Frost)
- Makes Continuus Catalysm augment actually useful, as you now have a reason to keep a Cataclysm for more than 5 seconds
- No idea what to replace his 2 with
- the 2 can be any number of abilities, but it will define his primary function as a frame (support, offense, or defense)
- At present, I've synergized his abilities, enabled basic survivability, and generalized their functions
- He can play defense, both static and mobile, competently
- He can inflict damage through his powers AND weapons
- Weapon damage=reliable, power damage=unreliable past lvl 60 (tested on various Corpus during sorties)
- He can Heal & Restore energy to allies and self w/Haven
- Heal unreliable when used on allies b/c requires manual targetting
- Energy Restore VERY Reliable due to Cataclysm
- Cannot buff ally damage- Options:
- - A way to transport all allies to the rift instantly?
- Haven affects the ability creating an AoE heal/guard
- Protects allies from damage
=Defensive Limbo- - A way to increase ally damage
- Damage in the Rift?
- Could also just be an update for Rift Torrent
- Rift Surge affects all allies in the rift for 100% of the remaining duration?
=Support Limbo- - A smaller, consistent/spammable damage dealing ability?
- Cone or Line AoE Rift banish
- Name: Rift Tear
- Stuns enemies within it for a few seconds
- Banishes all enemies caught within it
- Inflicts Impact damage (over time?)
- Inflicts double damage against enemies already in the Rift?
- strips armor?
- short duration (like Frost Wave)
- Self-AoE Rift?
- All enemies near him are banished
- No. Too risky. Becomes a liability. Easier to just Cataclysm
=Offensive LimboTold you, many similarities, but also some notable differences. The most significant of which in my opinion stems from our evaluation of his present situation.
23 hours ago, JackleTheKitsune said:For the purpose of a "rework" i don't enjoy a rework that tosses out everything a frame was before, you wouldn't want an Inaros rework that makes him a squishy energy starved stealth frame. With that logic I don't expect Limbo to become a god frame, or even to be the undying ghost others seem to propose. When we look at Limbo, his theme is that of a stage magician, clever, cunning, not overtly powerful outright, but a master of taking you out of your element, and into his where he has the advantage. Along those lines, his kit already works on paper. Banish pulls them out of reality, a good control aspect the next time you don't feel like getting bashed by the Juggernaut. Rift walk lets him exploit this to either harm or bypass his targets. Rift Surge makes him deal excessive amounts of damage showing he is in control of his realm. Lastly Cataclysm lets him open his plane of existence for all to exploit.
See, I don't think this kit works on paper, because it's not a complete kit. Every other frame in this game has 4 tools that each perform different functions, and while some of those functions aren't very useful, they are at least 4 functions and enable varied usage. I don't see 4 abilities here: I see Banish, Banish, Rift Surge, and Banish again. Banishing something and inflicting a lot of damage to banished things is the entirety of his playbook, and while you can be very creative with your banishes, a.) that's all he's got, and b.) it's not very useful on almost any mission (or at least not without serious drawbacks). That's also where I disagree with you a bit on Limbo's current usefulness.
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:But my issues here are that they can't keep up with most teams. Now expecting a frame to be good in every situation is a fallacy, but expecting a frame to have a purpose in every situation is not. Limbo excels in Defense, mobile def, rescue, and spy without question, but not without a large amount of effort and tedious work. My own experience with attempting to rule a defense mission with limbo came down to abusing syndicate procs to soften up targets outside the rift. But this strategy was only viable when used against grineer, with energy restoring procs, maxed zenurik regen, and staying in the rift as long as possible. For the same amount of work i could have done the entire mission solo with an Inaros without breaking a sweat.
Comment: I don't think he's very good at most of those missions either. On Defense and Mobile Defense Limbo is as much a boon as he is a liability. In order to use him in some productive way, you have to use Cataclysm on the target. However, that ability forces the team to adopt a very particular strategy of 3 patrolling the borders and one defending the Cataclysm area, in order for it to actually help. Otherwise, you just slow down your wave clearing and cause team-wide frustrations due to the rift's damage properties (can only hit enemies on the same plane as you). In short, Limbo adds an extra rule set to defense missions that isn't overtly helpful, or necessarily desirable. He has the potential to be good at those missions, but only pending a Cataclysm update. I do however agree that he's decent at both Spy and Rescue missions. The trouble is that there are half a dozen other frames that are just as good or outright better than him at those missions all the while being usable/effective on others as well.
Faults to address on this matter are threefold, Limbo is squishy (Last time you saw a magician in full body armor?) Limbo cannot deal high damage (last time a magician made a head literally explode with a trick?) Limbo doesn't aid the squad (Master of single target assassination is only useful in certain situations, see Juggernaut above)
Comment: Mostly agreed. I'd just refine the complaint about his damage. Limbo's passive and Rift Surge give him a higher sustained weapon damage output than Mirage (though to be fair, only a marginal one; 250% boost vs 240% boost). The problem is that he can't apply it anywhere near as liberally as she can, because he struggles to both drag multiple enemies into the rift and keep them there.
Right now, Banish, Rift Walk, and Cataclysm could all be mapped to a single key without upending anyone's current playstyle, or even introducing any new button combinations (see: Nezha, Ivara, & Vauban) e.g. Press 1 at a target to Banish the target (Banish), press 1 at nothing to Banish Limbo (Rift Walk), and hold 1 at an area to banish the area (Cataclysm). This is not okay.
However, despite recognizing this, I don't think condensing them all is necessarily the way to go with a rework (though Rift Walk and Banish should absolutely be one ability). Rather, like you, I think DE should increase the functions of his existing abilities to diversify their usage, and also introduce one more to specify his primary functionality (because at the moment he has none).
As indicated by my notes, I agree with most of your suggested changes. I'd just make some minor tweaks.
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:1-Banish, This idea is mostly spurred on by the tech seen in Ash's proposed Rework showcased on Dev Stream 81. Being able to hold down banish to sweep an area of targets into the rift at the cost of increased energy drain on Limbo. Now i'm not saying to Banish whole rooms at once with this, that's what Cataclysm is for, but to sweep small groups of say 5 targets, something that could even scale with leveling early on. Using this style on Banish would allow Limbo to remove problematical groups and still enter them into his rift to be dealt with. On a side note, weapons like the Castanas, Talons, Stug, and several others have an "explosive" hit, something secondary to the actual firing of the weapon that sticks to a target before dealing damage. Perhaps making these weapons travel with their target could improve their usage in a sometime under-utilized field of weapons. (Because who doesn't want to pull something like that scene with the bomb inside the pirate from the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie but with space ninjas and the rift?)
Banish has to be able to affect Limbo. Either through holding the button down to Banish an area, or by pointing at nothing to Banish himself. I prefer your suggestion as it would allow you to Banish all nearby allies for an AoE heal, and un-Banish all of them without having to aim so precisely. Cool Idea.
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:2-Rift Walk, This power is a necessary part of Limbo, and while he would suffer without it, I feel like the one complaint I see with it is it's cast time. His showmanship should not be sacrificed easily but most of my deaths as Limbo come from trying to pop into the rift and catching a bullet in place of my hat. When leaving he has no flare and this allows him to jump back to reality without much of an issue. Yet, I often find myself desiring a faster way to enter the rift. Here I was inspired by Saryn, a frame I feel was reworked flawlessly, and look at synergy. Her Molt is effortless, there have been times I haven't realized I've even cast it because it just pops into existence. The fluid transfer allows the Molt to even happen mid maneuver as I roll or dive for cover. While i would love this kind of fluidity for Limbo having that quick pop like he does at the end of his power at the beginning, i feel like it would pull from his showmanship somewhat. as a solution to this I propose that any normal Rift Walk continues to use the full animation, but if Limbo were to have his Rift Surge active that the cast time would be halved, this would stack with natural talent.
I don't think this ability needs to exist when Banish can do the same thing, as currently demonstrated by Nezha's Safeguard augment. I'd prefer it if this were a cheaper, spammable tool for pulling groups of enemies into the rift or stunning them. Basically, I'd prefer to give Limbo a tool for managing enemies without entering the rift or relying on it. That said, thoug I can't think of anything specific to put in this slot, though I have a few suggestions in my notes above.
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:3-Rift Surge, Elephant in the room, this power is so powerful and useless at the same time it hurts. When it's active and you're in the rift, you notice, you feel the extra oomph behind every hit. But at the same time, outside the rift it just, has balls orbit you. As well as the proposed Synergy above in Rift Walk, what if there was still a trick this magician could pull out of his hat outside the rift? The largest change I can offer for Limbo is some form of survival tool. Inside the rift, put the magician on the hunt, give him the raw power he needs to finish things, but outside, why not give him something to play havoc on the enemies who should know better than to target him. I would propose either some form of evasion boost or damage reduction, bullets either veering off target as Limbo plays a good old game of Now you See me or the rift itself surging forward to pull most of the harm away from him. The boost could even shift in real time as his position inside or outside of the rift changes. functioning somewhat similar to Mirage's Eclipse but largely inverted and controlled by the rift status, not lighting. I'm not thinking anything like reflecting bullets, or blowing them away like a zephyr, or mesa, but just a little trick to help the magician hit the road when the angry mob comes knocking.
I completely agree that this needs to also offer some form of damage reduction, though the how is a little bit tricky, particularly due to its present (intended) synergy with Cataclysm. In my notes, I make pretty much the same suggestion as you: give him damage mitigation outside of the rift, and increased damage inside of the rift akin to Mirage's Eclipse. Makes sense, and seems balanced. But, the only way for Limbo to kill more than one enemy at a time is to Cataclysm, putting many enemies on the same plane as him. This makes him incredibly vulnerable and forces players to kill them all very quickly or die, which in practice has typically yielded the latter. Consequently, the abilities don't actually work very well together without significant ally assistance or Naramon. So, I think he actually should have some damage mitigation in the rift, just of a different sort than what he'd gain outside of it. Maybe something like this:
- Rift Surge: Limbo has increased threat level while inside the rift. All incoming damage from outside of the rift increases Limbo's damage dealt by up to 200% while inside the rift, decreases damage taken by 90% while inside the rift, and reduces Limbo's visibility while outside of the rift by up to 100%.
Basically like Vex Armor and an Arcane Trickery with a more Mirage-esque implementation. Coupled with the other suggestions given this would enable Limbo to function in both planes, complete the Synergy between Cataclysm, Rift Surge, and Banish, and (ideally) not be dead weight on most of the game's missions. Thematically, I think of this as transitioning between setting up for the next magic trick or dazzling foes with misdirection (For reference: I play Limbo with a maxed Naramon lens and still die from random AoEs and Caustic Eximus blasts all the time, so I don't think it's any more insane than what Loki can muster).
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:4-Cataclysm, I love this ability, it's great for pulling the whole "Welcome to my realm where I am strongest" feel. I'm not going to complain about damage, or letting people shoot through it, it just want the one thing most have asked for. Can Cataclysm not block item pickup? With banish it made sense, the target was banished to the rift, not the drop, but with Cataclysm? "Quick Limbo, open up another dimension and do cool stuff!!" "Ok but I can't effect little hockey pucks of resources or that weird red goo that makes us not hurt so much after a headshot." Limbo can even troll teammates using Cataclysm in it's current state to block item pickups using this intentionally or otherwise. Past that I feel he has a great kit that just needs to be adjusted for the eventual power creep the game (and all good games) eventually take on.
As written in my notes, I think Cataclysm should trap enemies inside of it, and deactivation should count as a detonation for significant damage (similar to Titania's Lantern). At the moment, I have never once found a reason to keep a Cataclysm active for more than a few seconds, as any longer than that puts Limbo at risk and begins trolling the rest of the team. Allowing allies to pick things up while inside of it would partially address the trolling issue, but the bigger problem in my opinion is that there's little reason to Cataclysm outside of justifying Rift Surge. This change would give Cataclysm some serious value on a lot of missions and help justify the existing Continuous Cataclysm augment. It would also, again fit his magician theme by allowing him to literally create a captive audience.
On 10/12/2016 at 10:46 AM, JackleTheKitsune said:Passive- his current passive actually works pretty well, the increased holster rate and reload showing his nimble fingers in his realm, and the movement speed a nice touch. The only other thing i could think of is letting him pickup items while in the rift but i hesitate for the reasons seen above in Cataclysm.
Totally agree, I love his passive as is. I'd instead prefer one major tweak to the Rift's properties: Make targets within the rift immune to nullifier shields and nullification effects. It just further reduces Limbo's usefulness against Corpus, and doesn't make even marginal sense from a lore standpoint. Given all of the changes we've outlined here, I don't even think it would make that large of a difference as we still wouldn't be able to take out their shields while in the rift. Just a personal peeve. Anyway, I'm glad that you made this thread, and look forward to reading what others come up with.
Simple Damage "2.5" IPS Changes
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by (PS4)TH3NAML3SS
punctuation
Please provide an actual counterargument. The fix I proposed for Armor scaling is literally 3 sentences (see the italicized: Puncture, Impact, & Corrosive) right at the start of the post, the rest is just explanation. There's nothing "convoluted" about it. I'm aware of how Armor scaling works; I wrote a freaking guide on the subject years ago, and no, making Armor scale off of one defensive stat rather than two doesn't fix the problem either because the property of Armor - reducing damage dealt - is what makes it hard to get through, unlike Shields which essentially just increase the target's health total. The scaling isn't an issue due to how large it is, it's a problem because of the fact that we have to get through it quickly with gimped damage to maintain a decent TTK, and only possess a handful of tools to do so.