Angrados
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Posts posted by Angrados
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43 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:11 hours ago, Angrados said:
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2: The Orokin would not have any thing specifically unique to then that would prevent the Infestation from replicating it. Its just organic material and technology integrated into it that when infested created a useful weapon distinct from what they already had. There isn't any indication that the Orokin had some specific element or void-energy power unique to them that couldn't be replicated. The infested only need the basic materials and then can build more sophisticated structures and organs from that. Even if there was some unique little bit of them that couldn't be remade, the infested could easily just ignore or even purge that and use what remained.
I disagree. Remember during the Guardsman synthesis when the Dax was surprised that Bilsa was Sectarius class? The Executors also had special genetic coding that separated them from the rest of the rabble. The usage of Kuva probably also had a part to play in that as well, but without more information on both it's hard to tell just from what we know. That said, I do acknowledge that the Infested could probably copy those genetic augmentations, though in the case of Kuva being a key factor that would be much harder to replicate. Imagine if it were something that Infested Ancients sorta just generated, like walking Kuva siphons. Eugh.
54 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:4: I'll admit I read that part wrong, you specified the modern look of them. However there is nothing at all hinting at them changing their appearance drastically in that time span. Their descriptions remain fairly accurate in the lore we have that describes them at that point in time, so there isn't much to hint that they would have changed. The armor the Grineer had worked for its function, and they did not have the brains to really go about designing new ones. Also Lephantis did not only get its material to form the three heads at the start of its isolation in the derelict. Grineer and Corpus likely had located the ship and went aboard to salvage what they could and fell victim to the infestation, providing the victims needed for Lephy to grow on and increase the numbers of the infestation present. Lephantis had in your timeline 400 years to collect material to form itself into that 3 headed monstrosity. Seems to be plenty of time for it to get a hold of more modern Grineer and Corpus. Also remember, if they are a hive mind, the information for the modern units would be known to Lephantis anyways, and if it provided any advantage over its old form it could always improve itself.
A reasonable assertion. However, I would argue that the empty and derelict Death Orbs littered above his chamber seem to indicate that he somehow manages to drag stuff to his chamber for feeding, be it through telepathic control of the Infested or some other means of controlling the Infested since, as we have both concluded, he can't fit through the rather small hallways of the Derelict. It's entirely possible that there were outside parties looking to break in and salvage what they could, but there's no definitie conclusion as to whether or not that was the case from what we have. Entirely probable, not for certain.
On the subject of the Compound Mind, you make a very good point. However, that then raises the question of Lephantis's role within the Mind. Is he its primary intelligence, much like the Gravemind from Halo? Or is he just another outlet of that hive, another puppet being played to the tune of its goal of replication and assimilation? Hard to say, but I would say that the evidence we can see still gives us the impression that Lephantis should have more weight both in the lore and in the game than he has now.
1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:7: The Derelicts are in fact around Eris by lore, and we have no knowledge if Orokin towers were there or not since we are only told that all REMAINING towers are around Mercury. Other planets very well could have had towers that were destroyed, making prime salvage locations, or were taken into the void to escape the consequences of the war. Next the Infestation was released as a weapon against the Sentients before the Orokin turned to using the Tenno, so there very well was an infested presence loose in the system before the fall of the Orokin. And the Orokin lose ships quite often, just look into the lore behind the Zariman, they mention that ships get lost in the void jumps often enough that the Zariman was no major surprise. They really didn't even investigate it much considering the closed the case based on the thought that the ships that get lost in the fold never return. And if it were a corpus ship, as you mentioned, it would not have been of their concern much since it was not an Orokin ship. The corpus were only a small trading group of colonies at that point, and hardly worth troubling over a lost ship here and there. Only if the ship had something of importance to the Orokin would they have bothered to look. Also there is the fact that this would have been started during the War, so the loss of a few smaller ships could easily have been missed in the chaos. The corpus also was based in the outer regions of the system, compared to the inner regions. That would point to them having been at Eris at the time as possible.
On the subject of the Eris bit, I don't recall ever hearing about the Derelicts being next to Eris, especially with them floating about on the star map all willy-nilly. I readily admit that I'm somewhat newer to Warframe, having only played for a little over a year now. Was there an event with lore implications that I missed that discussed the location of the Derelicts? In other words, can you point me in the direction of where I can find that particular piece of information?
On the subject of the Towers, there are still plenty of towers in the Void, though this may have to do with, as you most appropriately addressed, them being lost in the Void. What's rather odd, though, is that the towers left in the void are immaculate. There's no people aboard other than the Corrupted serving the Neural Sentry (which we still have no idea as to its nature), though maybe this could be marked down to the Corrupted serving as glorified maids after all of the Orokin finished killing each other due to Void madness. Maybe. While the only towers left in the system may be in orbit around Mercury, there are more that exist, to be certain. After a brief check ingame, I don't see any place to find the information regarding Mercury and the Towers. It's definitely something I remember hearing, but then again, I also seem to remember the lapse in Tenno presence lasting about 400 years, so take that for what you will.
On the subject of the Zariman, I find the idea of the Void somewhat confusing, if only as to why people try and transit through it. What's on the other side? It's not like people would transit through it to get from point A to point B, it's out in the middle of nowhere on the star chart. This is another place where I don't think we have enough development of the lore--what is the purpose of the Void, why do people transit through it, and why did the Orokin keep sending people into the Void if it kept eating their ships? That seems incredibly dumb for a hyper-advanced race of space-faring creatures. In other words, what stakes lie within the Void?
On the subject of the Zariman being a Corpus ship, I don't find that likely, since if that were the case we would probably see them or have run into them in our time exploring the Void. The only reason I can think of for us not running into them is because they are either completely empty and have nothing for us to use, or the Lotus really doesn't care for the Corpus, which I think paints the Lotus in a unfairly negative light. In terms of the lore, it would fit, but functionally there's no evidence of the Corpus taking forays into the Void beyond using Void gates (which, again, why were the Orokin so obsessed with getting into the Void?).
Other than that the points about the Corpus having been based further out are on point and they make sense. I will concede that much, but also raise the question as to Eris itself, since we don't know anything about its surface. I imagine it's completely overrun by Infested at this point, but I also what to know what that looks like and why nobody has bothered to try and deal with it.
1 hour ago, NeithanDiniem said:9: Lephantis was isolated in the Derelict, and we have no knowledge on if the ship was capable of movement anymore so there may have not been a reason for Lephantis to even bother with expanding. It likely was more focused on maintaining itself, killing anything that came across the location in the hopes of spreading the infestation to new places, and releasing infested spores into space. The Hive would have no use for it just growing for the sake of growing when focus could instead lie elsewhere. Jordas on the other hand was mobile and having a Cephalon it could lure new targets in. Opens up a lot more possibility. Lastly the Orokin structures appear to be more resilient to being broken down by the infestation, look at how the infested bits follow the tree-like wires of the Orokin ships compared to on the corpus ships where it can more easily flow around and integrate with the hulls. There is reason to believe that the Orokin used the same kind of bomb as in Once Awake to clear all organic matter from their ships and towers that were hit by the infestation, hence why the towers are all empty of life outside the corrupted serving the neural sentry. Had the deployment of some of these bombs not gone to plan properly the infestation could have taken root in the now-dead hulks of the derelicts but had limited ability to spread as fast as they could on un-purged ships like the corpus's. Lephantis's combat abilities were tailored to the environment, which was minimal and isolated. For its purpose it had done exceedingly well there considering it managed to live so long and incorporate so much bio material. It being a weapon of the old war isn't much to go on since it clearly evolved a significant amount since then. It wouldn't of had any of the heads or their methods of attack in the old war. For all we know it was just a pod of infested material designed to be detonated and released against the Sentients in the hopes that the infestation within would take root and begin developing units on the field.
The Lotus calls Lephantis the source vector for the sector, which feels and sounds highly ambiguous. Is she referring to the Origin system? The field of Derelicts? Whatever the case, Lephantis was and is supposed to be a big deal. The Compound Mind may have dispensed with Lephantis once they found a new shiny to play with (see Jordas), which would make sense, but at the same time that also denies the idea that Lephantis seems to have a larger role to play, which also doesn't appear to be the case. I guess what can be taken away from this debate is that Lephantis needs some love from the Devs, in a lot of different ways, which is something you touched on in your tenth point as well.
22 minutes ago, Bug24 said:Just to clarify, he was not implying that you don't know your lore. He was actually crediting you as a contributor to the discussion.
I know, at the time I was a little irritable since it was late and I hadn't slept in a while. I do appreciate the recognition, and I think I was hoping to come across as tongue in cheek when I wrote it. I do appreciate the credit, though, as it means that I'm doing this whole forums thing right imo.
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2 hours ago, ObviousLee said:
there's no reason for an egg, which is baseline genetic material? you want them to use already infested material(mutagen masses) to make an infested? Pherliac pods? which are harvested from juggies for an entirely different purpose than reproduction? Drain onto a warframe neuroptic? so pour infested material on inert infested material? your right, it makes no sense that you use the exact same item in your orbiter to make any and all companions, even though no egg is used for kavats, just genetic codes.
and yes, one CAN say something makes sense when you're only accounting for the lore aspect(which was declared in the OP) and you're discounting the game mechanics due to A:unfinished system mechanics and B: game mechanics do not equate to lore. i'm hoping you're capable of understanding that, otherwise we're wasting our time here.
there is plenty of reasoning why. had you actually read what was posted carefully, you'd understand that.
Know your lore before making responses, unless you're being like @Angrados and having a genuine conversation with people in the thread.
*implying that I don't know my lore* ._.
You're probably not wrong, though, a reread of the lore fragments in the game wouldn't go amiss on my part. I never could find any evidence talking about the few centuries bit, but I do get the feeling that it's about that time frame. Why, I'm not sure, but if I run across anything I'll let you know about it.
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29 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:
Given that the ancient they were fighting was their sister, and that ancient and the infested with it were killed by the other presence, it would make no sense if it was their sister again. The only way it would begin to make sense is if it was another infested healer, but then why would it kill its own? The flash of silver ("silver" is not good to describe color compared to describing material AND color, and infested rarely have reflective, bright metal material in their makeup) is what leads me to decide it would have to be a Warframe, and the only main healer Warframe we had at that time would have been Trinity Prime.
If you would have read what me and Lee went over before a few times now, infested retain the genetic blueprint of the things they infest. They are the Borg of Warframe, essentially. They can make ancients at will, and it logically HAS to be the only way considering they appear anywhere the infested show up at. Infestation start out as spores in most places and grows from there, it has zero possible ways outside of crashing infested organic material into ships, stations, or planets to spread via a living unit that has already existed for a long time period. That explains how they can be common, how they can appear all over, how they aren't all centuries old, and how they aren't as strong as the boss enemies.
We also have no definitive timeline for how long the Orokin empire has been collapsed. Also the Tenno did not kill all the Orokin, we only killed off the elite ruling and commanding members of the society. To kill off ALL the Orokin we would have almost made the solar system devoid of sentient (not Sentient) life. The corpus (not Corpus as a stand alone faction) and the grineer workers all existed at that time as well. They were servants of the Orokin and considered a part of that empire. Alad V himself is directly stated to be Orokin, and yet he is alive and well. Thus, the Tenno did not kill every Orokin and instead destroyed the Orokin as an EMPIRE. To do that, they took out the ruling elite that had the power and corruption. From a lore standpoint, the Sentients through Natah (to us known as Lotus) only needed us to destroy the empire's control and it would collapse on itself, which it did to a glorious level.
Jordas can in fact be older than the collapse of the empire since there is no definitive timeline when he started his operations beyond Eris. The chaos of the collapse would actually have made it easier for him to function without being detected by a large force. The corpus did have their own ships, they were a smaller sub faction of the empire and largely traded among their colonies. Few of them actually gained high standing in the empire, it was a corpus Archimedian that created the entities that became the Sentients, after all. Also considering that Jordas consumes the other ships he encounters then overwrites that ship's Cephalon with a copy of his own. He'd be able to have started out as a smaller ship and upgrade as he went. He could have just been a smaller cargo craft at the start, expanding into a larger vessel that we now find him in.
Lephantis didn't have too large of a reason to break out of its cell, nor do we know if it easily could have before. The material may not have been weakened enough to break for a significant amount of time, and since it was a weapon for use in the war, the containment cell to hold it must have been designed with containment in mind. It is also too large to travel through the tiny hallways, and probably had been for a long time, making that area be the only location it could fit in. Expanding that area would just mean it could grow larger, but still remain enclosed. Without a goal or threat strong enough, it would have no reason to expand. Next, the Grineer and Corpus existed in that time (not sure where you got the idea they didn't), so yes they very well could have over the entire time of the ship being derelict been killed and incorporated. For the self-replication part, it doesn't require a new body to be developed. That can easily be self-replication on a cellular level, and a body would just be organic material to use so the bodies would have been re-incorporated anyways. The weakpoints are more of a game mechanic to make the fight not be a cheese-fest, Lephantis IS the size of a barn, but it also covers its weakpoints as a form of protection so there is that to consider. Lastly three heads gives the infested unit three points of attacks to go from, as well as have the strengths of all three.
I cant argue that DE could do with polishing Lephantis up or expanding on its story, but the idea that it could leave has been shot down by the size of the hallways that it could not have fit down.
1. Granted, and conceded. That makes sense.
2. No, I understood what you guys were talking about (I believe, anyway). It makes sense, and it's actually on that premise that I'm taking issue with the idea that the Infestation can somehow synthesize and replicate Ancients at will. What I'm saying is that there would be no way to synthesize the needed material for Ancients without having the source material on hand (if I understood your argument correctly) because the Orokin hierarchs were genetically unique. Though the Infestation may have the template for it, it would lack the materials, if that makes any sense, at least, logically in my mind. Thus, Ancients would need to be formed from the original Orokin, which is why it's problematic that we mow through probably hundreds of thousands of them every day, collectively.
3. As far as I'm aware, it's been only several hundred years since the collapse of the Orokin Empire. I'm working on pulling sources for it currently, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and we move on. I'm basing my logical process on the assumption that around 400 years has passed since the fall of the Orokin Empire, but theoretically you could unmoor the timeline from any concrete reasoning and still come to the same conclusions. I'll get to that in a moment.
4. I'm aware that the Grineer and the Corpus existed. I'm going to read that entire bit as you misunderstanding my post, which I will attempt to clarify since it was apparently confusing.
5. On the subject of Alad V, technically speaking the Corpus in general are the direct descendants of the Orokin, or as close as you can get. There's implications in the first Moa synthesis that they were also clones at the time, and the shift from cloning to more natural methods of reproduction are what led to their fall from grace as a species, if you will. There is no indication that Alad V is "Orokin" beyond that he is Corpus, and if the Elder Queen is anything to compare to Alad V would not be nearly in as good of condition as he is if he was truly Orokin after having lived for that long.
6. On the subject of the Fall of the Orokin leadership, this is true and backed up by the Synthesis fragments. However, when we speak of the Orokin we don't talk about the corpus or the grineer clones. We talk about the Golden Ones, the genetically enhanced Orokin that stood above the rest. Perhaps I should have further defined it that way in order to obviate confusion, since it seems we were working on uncertain terms.
7. I have to disagree on the idea that Jordas's operations could have begun before the fall, and there is good reason to do so. All of the ships surrounding Eris (and beyond Eris, as far as we're aware) are purely Corpus technology. There are no Orokin Towers floating around out there, or even Grineer towers, which lends more credence to the idea that Jordas was a product of the post-fall due to a lack of evidence to the contrary. If you were to point to Orokin Derelicts out on Eris as proof, I would be a lot more willing to see the logic of it, but without solid evidence of the Infestation not having taken root after the Fall, specifically in the tech of the Corpus, out on Eris, I don't believe that this is a defensible point.
8. To touch on your point about the corpus and their role in the Empire, they were its subjects. As I understand the term "corpus" is also a unit for family, as the Executors refer to that Archimedean's corpus when he seeks to challenge them. To go back to your idea of removing the leadership (and I'm about to use a pun to illustrate my point) if the Orokin's Golden Ones were the heads of the Empire, the corpus was its body (pun fully intended). I refer to the Corpus as a singular entity because it is one body, one group, one faction (abeit the largest one, by the looks of it) of the Empire, as you pointed out. That doesn't mean that they functioned with autonomy (because there exists no indication of that, in fact, the Detron Crewman synthesis seems to indicate the exact opposite), much less operated with their own technology. I can't see the Orokin allowing much travel outside of their own ships if they could help it, and maybe they couldn't and the Corpus did have their own fleet. However, if that was the case I'd be willing to bet it was heavily regulated and monitored closely by the Orokin, so if ships were to start mysteriously popping out of existence over by Eris they'd take note and dispatch troops accordingly. The idea still doesn't hold water, even if we do take into account that the Corpus could have had their own ships.
9. And we return to Lephantis, the beastie that completely derailed this thread (which I am completely, utterly, and totally sorry for doing. Hopefully we can draw it to a close here and let the topic get back on topic). I'll begin with the idea that Lephantis couldnt move through the ship. I acknowledge this, as Lephantis is a 60-foot-tall three-headed behemoth looking to assimilate all in its path. What I don't understand is why it didn't grow to assimilate the entire ship around it rather than remain cocooned inside of its own little bubble, which it busted out of pretty easily (and probably had been capable of doing so for a while). It's easy to forget that the Technocyte virus is both a technological and biological corruption, and it's more than likely that Lephantis could have evolved to control both with relative ease, especially given the time frame. I mean, if Jordas can do it in a comparatively shorter time span than Lephantis, why not Lephantis? There's infested growths all over the place already, why doesn't he tap into that?
Now, to address the idea of the corpus and the Grineer "not existing" during the Old War. If you go back and read my post, carefully, I never claimed that they didn't. Or at least, if I did I was greatly mistaken. They did exist, but what my question towards him having two seperate heads devoted to each was whether or not those designs in terms of armor existed during that time period. How long have the Corpus been walking around with cereal boxes on their heads? How long have the Grineer been using that bulky battle armor that obscures most everything except for their face? Both of those are elements that play out in the design of their respective heads, but I have a hard time reconciling that with a creature that's been around for... well, at least several centuries. You'd think that the technology of the Corpus at the very least would have moved forward, and the Grineer probably didn't have that advanced of battle armor back when Lephantis was first conceived. If anything this gives stronger evidence towards the proposed Compound Mind idea that was presented earlier.
That said, the Compound Mind idea also has flaws when it comes to Lephantis. Specifically, why did the Compound Mind decide that Lephantis needed three heads? I mean, it does give him a full 360 degree field of view, but Lephantis's defenses are somewhat lacking. He has a scythe, a thingy that shoots poison pods and... another thingy that shoots pods that spawn Infested. That's about the degree of his defenses/offensive capabilities. For a weapon of the Old War Lephantis comes across as pretty underwhelming once you get over the initial shock factor of a 60-foot-tall beastie living in the basement. He could definitely use some more love, and I wouldn't be unhappy with some sort of rework or redesign if it were to ever come down the pike (which, if I'm going to be brutally self-aware, it probably won't).
10. The idea that the design is for more gameplay than lore is a valid one, but it also falls apart when the battle consists of Lephantis playing an extended game of peek-a-boo with his heads. There probably could have been better ways to do it than that, if I'm going to be honest, and I think that the entire boss battle would benefit from another look (which, again, will likely never happen/not happen for a very, very long time).
Hopefully that all clarified my points a little bit. It's late and I'm not very good at articulating when I'm tired, so if there's anything that needs clarifying let me know. I'll be back in the morning.
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23 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:
Yea, a sentient wouldn't have fit because the saved Orokin stated they sensed the presence of another healer. Trinity prime fits that description royally.
The individual infested ancient in the missions we find haven't live for years and years (we aren't 100% on how many hundreds it had been since the infested were created). Also Lephantis did get Orokin in its make up, one of its heads is based on the ancients design. Individual infested's adaptations that would make them stronger would be on an individual standpoint, compared to a universal.
Lephantis had a lot of time to age and adapt to its environment, but its environment was limited He was restricted to that one section of the ship (maybe his holding cell area?). It is strong, but its environment did not give it the opportunity to grow as much as Jeordas did. He took down entire ships and was able to incorporate all the ships crew and cephalons. Gives him a good amount of time to likewise adapt to a broader environment. Jeordas's age is also not 100% confirmable, as he could have used the old infested strain (he is not a robotic AI, hes a cephalon) and still infested ships. The size of Jeordas is what gives him his strength, as well as having more variety of material to infest and incorporate. He also created copies of himself, which would have been able to assist or share information between themselves.
Technically, you could also mark that down to the Lorist detecting her sister, which is how I read it, but again, two different PoVs, right?
The Infested Ancients, if they were truly Orokin in origin, have to be at least 400 years old, if not older, since that's the last time that the Orokin were recorded as alive. It's possible that in subsequent years the Orokin gradually were consumed by the Infested and that would make sense, but I would peg them to be at least 300 or so years old, with a fairly liberal estimate. They'd have to be much, much stronger if self-replication is in fact a thing, and they'd have to be a hell of a lot less common than they are now. Logically speaking it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
The J3's age is nailed down somewhat, though, and it has to be younger than Lephantis because Jordas was the Cephalon for a Corpus ship. That much is implied at least in the Infested Runner's synthesis entry. So we can peg him at, oh, around 200 years of age, maybe a little more or less, giving the Corpus time to build an empire that could make it out to Eris.
Which, at the very least, is significantly younger than Lephantis, who as you will recall has no problems busting out of his cage's roof. He is very strong, true, but if he could have broken out of his cell at any time--by blowing out the ceiling of it--why didn't he? Furthermore, before the fight Lephantis communicates with us on the same somatic wavelength, asking us why we defile them and that sorta stuff. In my mind Lephantis is not just strong, but also intelligent (see talking to the Tenno, much like Phorid and the like), so why couldn't have been bothered to leave? What kept him in the Derelict if he was clearly strong enough to leave whenever he chose?
The design of Lephantis feels somewhat abortive in terms of the lore. If he's really over 400 years old--which he has to be, since he was created during the Old War--why are there elements of modern Grineer and Corpus design in his model? Those didn't really exist back during that time, and unless the hive mind theory is accurate Lephantis never would have had the opportunity to confront or even assimilate that into his own design. If you look inside his chamber there's no remains, just Infested tissue pretty much everywhere. If he really has been self-replicating for centuries--which implies that he hasn't really been getting new material lately--why would those features exist on his model? And if the hive mind were really to be a thing, much like a Gravemind, why would it choose to pick the heads of both as its weakpoints? What strategic or biological purpose does having three heads involve?
In my opinion, if the lore is actually that important to DE (and I would argue that the inclusion of cinematic quests and their new focus would indicate as much) Lephantis needs either a rework or at least more attention. There's simply too much we don't know about him and the idea that he couldn't leave doesn't hold water because he can, especially if he gives himself more room to replicate (by, say, blowing out the roof of his cell). I think that with the suddenly increased focus on the Infested this is a good opportunity to do it.
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13 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:
yup. it was a singular Lorist who was incorporated into the infestation. Her sister came looking for her and was saved by Trinity Prime.
14 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:Nah, the ancients are infested orokin, you can see their robes and such. One of the Simaris Codex things gives evidence that the ancients are infested orokin too.
I've read the synthesis entry, and I know what you're talking about. I always read her salvation as coming at the hands of a Sentient, as the way it was described reminded me of a Battlyst's spinny laser ball attack. But, if it was Trinity Prime, I will take your word for it.
With that in mind, though, there are other problems that arise. If it was one Lorist, why are there three different kinds of Ancients that we've encountered thus far? Does that indicate that there were other subsets of the Orokin that had corresponding abilities that the Infested incorperated?
Also, if they were in fact infested Orokin, they should be much, much stronger than they are now. Atm they're glorified mobs. They should be minibosses in their own right, and they REALLY shouldn't be popping up all over the damn place. They also have had 400 years worth of replication to become as powerful if not more powerful than Lephantis, in terms of the lore, and that doesn't reflect at all in the gameplay. I say more powerful because Lephantis had space restrictions that the Ancients, apparently, did not.
This is probably food for another thread, but I have serious issues with the strength of Lephantis vs the strength of, say, the J3 golem. Lephantis is much older, and therefore much stronger, than the J3 golem, or at least, he should be. I can't think of a time where I've ever failed to beat Lephantis in a single run, as opposed to J3, who despite being probably around half Lephantis's age is stronger (higher level too, if memory serves) and much, much bigger. This can be addressed by the space restraint question, of course, but if the Infested really feeds on everything surrounding it and incorperates/self replicates in order to make itself stronger, that would indicate that Lephantis should be several measures of magnitude more powerful and deadly than J3. It just doesn't make any form of logical sense.
Food for thought, anyway.
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41 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:
The maggots are the only "pure" infested that exist, everything else needs something to latch onto.
I realize this is a fairly minor quibble, but technically speaking I believe the Ancients are also pure infested as well, as we don't see parts incorperated into their bodies at any point either (unless I'm incorrect, and in which case please do correct me).
5 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:Yea we did, repeatedly, multiple times. If you cant take the time to read the several times we've stated it, why are you replying?
Warframes are infested golems wearing suits, they are already immune to the infestation because they ARE infested. You are also forgetting that Helminth came into existence after the infestation had already been created, let loose, and started a full on plague in the origin system, its fully capable of having the genetic "blueprint" of a Charger. Lastly, it wouldnt be a Kubrow/Nidus Hybrid if the thing can grow on any warframe, it would just be an infested Kubrow.
I think the story has spent quite a bit of time exploring what the Tenno are. Now, in a sense, we are asking the opposite question: What is a Warframe? It's already sort of known that the Technocyte plague is part of a Warframe. I tend to think of the Infested in terms of the Technocyte plague, since that's where it started. The real question is, where does Nidus fit into the picture in terms of his role within the plague?
Regarding the Helminth Charger, and Helminth in general, if it is in fact just another strain of the Plague and not connected to the original strain that's taken everything over, I find that idea fascinating. My perspective on Helminth is that it's the "hive mind" that we've thrown around a couple times in this conversation, but only just awake (kind of like a newly formed Gravemind from Halo, if you will). Or perhaps, considering the way it handles the Operator and the way it speaks about sleeping, it was once much more powerful but only awoke later? It's hard to tell with what we have. I'm not terribly troubled by the Helminth charger and how it looks or behaves, simply because it doesn't bug me. I'm excited to see more of Helminth and how it affects the plot and world of the game.
18 minutes ago, Herosupport said:well you blind fanboys have fun running this game into the ground.
if Helminith is part of the infestation then it along with ordis deserves to die.
Yikes. For the record, Ordis has nothing to do with the Infestation. He also has no connection to Helminth. It sounds like you have your own personal animi to deal with, so I don't see why you're getting upset.
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1 minute ago, DJPWN-3 said:
By no means am I implying that by being in a "beta phase", the game is lacking. I completely agree with you. I was just making an observation.
I was attempting to concur with your concurrence while also poking a little bit of fun at the people who tend to get very, very salty about the whole "it's still in beta" statement. We're good.
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4 minutes ago, DJPWN-3 said:
I feel like this is stuff that is going to happen as development of the game goes on. Inevitable.
If you ask me, they're doing a good job.
Remember, the game's still technically in open beta.inb4 everybody and their uncle starts yelling that they charge cash and therefore it isn't a beta.
While technically true, I think it's time to start giving the game and the devs a little more credit than just "this is only beta", if you're reading me. They've done an awesome job here, and I'm greatly looking forward to what comes next.
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1 minute ago, Kaotyke said:
And I mean by having more fleshed out characters, no need for Quests or anything like that, maybe having an Option in the Orbiter to just speak with Ordis and he gives a few rundowns on what is going on in the system and what happened after each Quest, and having more lines and dialog options as more are completed, maybe after TSD we actually speak the questions. (I believe he should be the one with the most lines since we see him every damn day, he is the ship after all)
Same with the other characters in the Relays, get a high enough standing with them and we can just stop and talk to Darvo, Tessa Tal, Glast, Suda... maybe hear the people around the relay talking to each other like we saw in Glast Gambit.
What we need is for those characters to be given FLESH, because they are still bone and skin when it comes to personalization (Except Clem, he is fully fleshed out).
The Myconian colony was a pleasant surprise, but there wasnt much, and we cant go there after their part of the Quest is done with.
Have an upvote, sir/ma'am. I am in agreement with you on this. Anything we can do to further anchor ourselves in the world, and get us to actually care about what we're doing in it is a good thing in my book.
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2 hours ago, ChillZi said:
I dont know last time I checked the definition of feedback it didn't say that people receiving it on the other end need to be protected at all times. So who are we to judge if feedback is good or bad. The only once who should judge that is DE themselves. I shouldn't explain myself to fanboys who just wanna argue with me and engage me in a debate.
Then don't bother doing so. The power of choice does lie in your hands when it comes to white knighting and how you handle that when it comes to your doorstep. Respectuflly disagree with them and move on, and if they continue to be a jerk I think you might be able to report them for trolling. I'd have to double check the forum rules about that, but I'd be shocked if trolling wasn't banned. That or you could also ignore them too, if it helps. There are options, after all.
2 hours ago, ChillZi said:I do understand where you come from. However, the reality is different. I made so many suggestions for this game. For example, I made a suggestion that the excavators should be a bit stronger in end game missions which does make sense because all other objectives like the terminals or pods in defense missions scale with the enemy level.
People disagreed just for the sake of disagreeing with me. Then I made a suggestion where we could use the energy cells and overload the excavator, so that it gets overshields.
That way, we wouldn't be forced to play as frost and could also take other frames like excal etc.
However, people (the white knights) didn't care. "I dont want that in my game because I like the game as it is." or "Git gud" This was always the response.
I made many threads but the main problem is that people cant take it as soon as someone criticizes their game. People want to defend it. It doesnt matter.
You even can have the best arguments but many people in here dont care. We can make it as constructive as possible. It doesnt matter. They wanna white knight as much as possible.
That said, if you are aggressive towards others giving feedback (BlackCoMerc, I'm looking at you right now) then you immediately put them on the defensive. You want to know the best way to make people either shut up or extremely belligerent? Get up in their face and get aggressive. I know that I find BlackCoMerc and other people who behave similarly distasteful and I go out of my way to avoid people like that, simply because it makes me feel insecure about my own opinions, and I find myself second-guessing them based on the feedback I get on whatever idea I throw out there. And perhaps that makes me a loser and I need to "git gud", I dunno.
The point I am trying to make is that when you frame it in an agressive manner, it feels less like feedback and more like an attack on either the person's idea or the person themselves. This doesn't just apply to those who want to "clap back" against white knights, but also to DE itself. There's a significant difference between "This isn't working and here's why" and "Here is why your game sucks now go fix it", if that makes any sense. Hopefully it does.
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Well, let's give this a whirl.
APPLICATION:
Tenno:
Orpheus
Warframe:
Nidus
Weapons:
Hema
Twin Grakata
Galatine Prime
Bio:
Unlike manyof those part of the Orokin Remnant, Orpheus awoke not on Lua but on the operating table of a Corpus medical lab. Apparently they had pried his cryopod from an Orokin Derelict that had lain centuries without having been opened, and now that they had finally worked it open they were shocked to find a child inside. Orpheus's awakening sent the lab into lockdown, as in a telekinetic rage he sliced through his captors with pure psychic energy, splattering the halls of the facility with blood and hydraulic fluid from the MOAs they sent to quell him. It wasn't long before the entire facility was slaughtered and the alarms fell silent. Orpheus was now in control.
Not long into his rampage Orpheus broke into a lab where a certain Infested specimen--vaguely humanoid in nature--was also being kept on lockdown. A quick look through the files on the Corpus computers revealed that this sample had been obtained from the same derelicted Orokin Tower that the Tenno had been found in. Orpheus couldn't really understand what it was until the systems suddenly catastrophically failed and the creature--the Warframe--blew its way out of its containment chamber. Orpheus tried to flee, but Nidus, basically just an infested beast, overcame and enveloped him. However, as Orpheus sank into unconsciousness he found himself awake in Nidus's body, having just completed Transference for the first time. Orpheus now not only was awake, but now had a Warframe at his disposal.
After stealing a cargo ship (via Nidus infesting and taking it over) and crashing it into a Grineer galleon, Orpheus raided their armory, acquiring the Twin Grakata that he still uses today as well as another Infested sample that the Grineer had dubbed the "Hema", which apparently was an experimental biological weapon. He quickly familiarized himself with these weapons as he slaughtered the entire Galleon's crew.
While on the deck of the navigation deck Orpheus discovered a distress signal coming from Lua on an old, disused Orokin channel that he ran across while flipping through frequencies. Orpheus immediately set a course for Lua, aiming the Galleon at earth with the intention of jumping off of it while passing by Lua. This worked somewhat--Orpheus managed to get close enough to the moon to launch, but the escape pods had all been jettisoned already, which meant that there wasn't going to be much launching occurring and that he was on a capital ship that was in the midst of sailing at high speed towards its own obliteration.
Thinking quickly, Orpheus jerryrigged an Ogma and launched himself from the ship, heading towards Lua in the Grineer ship without knowing exactly which was supposed to do what. Eventually Orpheus made it, abeit in a spectacular crash-landing that threw him several miles across the moon's landscape. From there, the rest is history--the trek to the beacon, finding Matoru, and the rest of the whole shebang. Good stuff.
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1 minute ago, Larvatheoz said:
@Angrados that´s solid angrados some parts of it, I just wanted to type it as a human, and so them can see it as we as player see it or feel when we are playing and experiencing the game.
Also if i put things straight sometimes it can do harm or offend some people so i prefer to abord the topics in a funny and realistic way, ive encountered several people behaviours some good and some weird.
Also im still noob in the fórums so... im doing my best; also english is not my main language so makes things a Little difficullt to "humanize" my posts.
Need an "im not a robot" button now :D
Thanks mate, u covered almost all my points straight i believe.
Operator is not satan, is just something i feel doesn´t match for an action game being so "soft" also petting the pets that feels like could be "another diffrent Branch" of WARFRAME. Maybe they can do pokewarframe in the future. or something alike i dont mind but please not in WARFRAME :D for godsake some people are asking to feed the damn dog. whats next? love and drama chat channel in the chat.?
Greetings Tennos!
Ah, good. I hoped I had hit on the most important points. I will say there's a LOT you have to say, and the delivery was a little dense, which is why I thought that cutting through it was necessary. I'm not sure if I agree with it all, honestly, but I haven't had enough time to let it cook inside of my mind to come to a conclusion, if you will. Thanks for the feedback on my post, though--always good to know that I'm being effective in terms of communication.
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1 minute ago, rytisrytis said:
From your summarization it seems like half of op ideas are only from his perspective and BS but i can agree to half of them.
Well, any idea put out is going to be from one's perspective. Heck, my summarization is from my perspective of trying to parse his perspective. There's a LOT in there that makes sense, and really it is a smattering of disparate ideas that all seem unconnected, but all are technically feedback, albeit given in the form of a shotgun blast rather than in the form of a precise point-to-point discussion.
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1 minute ago, Zhoyzu said:
Whoah* and no. if someone puts this much effort into a topic you should read it, or dont.
inb4 mods handout more warnings because everything technically violates forum rule 2.
Oh.
Now I feel bad ; - ; It was hard for me to get through to the point that I could parse straight to what he was saying, so I understand the request for a TL;DR. I didn't mean to subvert or to take away from people's reading of the topics discussed.
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...I don't even know where to begin.
Okay, that's a lie, maybe I do. I'm going to attempt to summarize your post into a list of bullet points, just to make things a little more concise and allow me to cut straight to the point of each of them.
1. All of the recent changes seem bad from your perspective and you think that DE is being sabotaged by its competition.
2. You want more action-y music than calming music (see Orokin Rail vs. Tenno Clan, for example).
3. Various visual reworks (Syandanas, Weapons, Primed Frames and their cooperation with Deluxe Skins, etc).
4. Better QA testing (since you basically assert that it doesn't exist even though in Devstream 84 the QA team is mentioned.)
5. Weapon redesign/reskin because they look like plastic toys rather than kickass weapons in some cases (Vaykor Hek is mentioned).
6. Buff to ducat prices so that grinding is less tedious.
7. Operators are satan and make the game seem more like Pokeframe than Warframe. Basically you disagree with the idea of the Operator as you feel it is too casual (if I am reading you correctly).
8. Phorid rework is ace, you like reworks.
9. Sad about Riven nerf, thinks it should never have happened.
10. Likes the Solstice version of the Imperator Syandana more than the actual Syandana because shinies.
11. The menus need fixing. UI could use some serious love, and not the kind that breaks it.
12. Kubrows and Kavats are no bueno. No pets. This is not Sims.
I'm almost certain I missed stuff, but I will post this for the moment and go back and edit it a little more.
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44 minutes ago, Casteh said:
Imagine if you got a -150% damage sybaris mod, it'd be so disappointing, right? It literally heals the enemies, who wants that? With a radiation proc you can heal your teammates, but that's not practical at all.
Imagine if you could heal your teammates with these guns, all the time. It'd create new play styles and I think it'd be pretty cool. It's not the normal press a button and heal your whole team.
I don't see why this would be a problem, so why not?
This is a clever idea.
I like this idea.
+1 to you, sir/ma'am/personofothergenderidentification, for being clever.
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3 minutes ago, BitterPill said:
So that's why you commented on post about Vacuum. OK.
No, I commented on a post about the Warframe subreddit being somehow better than the actual forums. You'll notice I didn't quote the OP when I posted. I even bolded the line about the Warframe subreddit being a better place for discussion to clarify as an afteredit because I wanted to make sure that came through. I added everything else to make sure that my post remained somewhat on topic rather than derailing your thread (no need to thank me, though really derailing this hate train probably wouldn't be such a bad thing...).
Maybe next time I'll invest in a flashing neon sign, so that my intentions don't get lost in translation. Or something.
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9 minutes ago, BitterPill said:
Aha... Explosions, bullets flying left and ri.. OH! A mod! NVM everything else, gotta walk and pick it up!
Guess Warframe sub-reddit is better place to discuss game's issues, than it's own official forum...
Oh lordy, that explains so much.
Well, I don't even use Vacuum now... so your cries of anguish are falling on uncaring ears. I don't know what you're doing ingame that would require such intense focus and concentration that you cannot break for a single moment to pick up a fallen mod or some resources that you want. I just don't get it, but maybe that's just me being me :/
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2 hours ago, Drufo said:
No. Because stamina limited everything, from running to melee. It's a completly different concept. And btw bulletjump is just a part of mobility, not the only way to move
But as Tsukinoki has pointed out repeatedly, it's the only way for slow frames to remain viable in gameplay in terms of keeping pace with the team. While I do realize this is very much an opinion thing, I don't think this is a good thing to consider adding to the game, as it would slow the game down (which by the sounds of it is rather intentional in your opinion) and really make things rather boring. On the uptick, it would give us plenty of time to appreciate the tiles that we run across... even if those are out of date and can be rather boring in and of themselves, especially after having played on them for extended periods of time. Remember how sick people got of the Orokin Void during the era of Keys? I can't imagine that immersing us in the same tiles over and over again would have a great effect, especially since so many planets share tiles with one another (see Mariana on Earth for an example of the Sealab showing up before Uranus).
Furthermore, nerfing mobility would also nerf the survivability of most slow frames, as Tsukinoki also pointed out, as in high-level play the only way to stay alive is to keep moving, and keep moving fast. Overall, a nerf to the bulletjump would only make the balancing--or lack thereof, in the case of slow frames-- more obvious to pretty much everybody.
Bottom line is, I don't think that limiting the mobility of a frame (by limiting bulletjumping) is that good of an idea. Doesn't mean your opinion is invalid, but I certainly don't agree with it and I hope it doesn't get implemented in the game.
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7 hours ago, StinkyPygmy said:
I agree. The operator dialogue is.... cheesy as best. I understand that they are just teenagers, but with what they've experienced and been trained to do you would think they would be a lot less goofy and have a bit more of a scarred " forced to grow up too fast" kind of vibe.
At the very least what I would appreciate, is the option to have multiple "voice line personalities". That way we could keep the current set for those that like the goofy/awkward teenager vibe, but we could also have a few other sets like a more stoic/neutral vibe, aggressive/blood thirsty, benevolent/caring etc.
DE could still keep a little bit of the goofy teenager thing in these sets, as long as the dialogue made more sense then it does now. I swear, some of the lines are so out of place I cringe every time I hear them.
This reminds me of something from TWW.
Spoiler ahead because, well, spoilers. Read on at your own risk.
SpoilerWhat if the dialogues were influenced/shaped by the choices made during TWW? The whole dark/light balance thing that showed up and still is on our profiles could determine the kind of dialogue our characters have. To illustrate my idea, let's say that the Tenno in question has completed the war within and chosen an all-light route. They can be the righteous, benevolent Tenno who says stuff like, "Behold, Tenno justice!" and other rather feel-good, stereotypical heroic dialogue. However, in the case of a balanced Tenno (equal parts light and dark) the phrasing would be different. Instead of stereotypical heroic dialogue the Tenno would say things like, "To uphold the balance, you must die", or "Prepare to die for your transgressions against the Tenno". Obviously, the full-on dark side would also have different dialogue, but I think I've made my point clear.
The reason I suggest the tie-in to TWW is because that was another system that was introduced that was never really fleshed out. I'm just trying to think of ways to fill out the systems that were established in novel and gripping ways that players might actually enjoy. Giving the moral choices of the Tenno weight is going to make TWW feel a LOT more important and it'll give players the opportunity to decide who their Tenno are in this system.
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3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:
It's a sort of joking prediction which will cease to be a joke as soon as it has, sadly, been proven correct. Given how long it took DE to produce the War Within, do you honestly envision the Focus and Operator rework taking less than a full calendar year?
That depends n whether or not they tackle another cinematic quest right out of the gate again, or if we'll have a bit of time where they actually go back and start fixing stuff. I can't speak for certain to either, since at the moment there's not much to say regarding it in terms of information. We'll just have to wait and see, as you pointed out, but I doubt it'll be a year. Personal opinion, though, so read that as you will.
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35 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:
Nope. Operators suck, dealwithit.jpg.
They'll suck less in 2018, after DE rework Focus.
I'm 90% certain that's gonna happen sooner than 2018, mate. Care to back that up with a source, or was that meant to be humorous hyperbole?
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7 hours ago, Genoscythe said:
Except we made short work of sentients in the second dream. The operators are supposed to have incredible void powers, but can't transform them into certain things though, just release the raw form, a laser ray or a shock wave for example. That's where warframes come in, they allow to transform and form this power into certain effects.
I see focus as a way of the operator to further refine the power and slowly be able to manage it better in a certain way.
While I do agree, allow me to play the devil's advocate for a moment.
If the Tenno are only ever able to release raw energy in their normal operator forms, what is the focus ability we're also able to use? I don't see why I can't fire Zenurik shockwaves as I'm running around, rather than hiding inside of my Warframe to pop out while invincible. If the regular operator can't control their powers beyond the raw laser and blasts that they use, then how are they able to use Focus powers at all? Furthermore, if they are able to use focus powers, why can't they use them when they're just walking around outside of their warframe? Does that focus magically disappear?
Hopefully, this gets addressed in the new focus rework. I don't know, though-we'll see what happens.
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23 hours ago, thewhitepanda1205 said:
1) We have Throwing Stars, Tonfas, Staves, and Katanas (I'm not sure if ninjas actually used regular swords and daggers)
2) The Upcoming Syndicate Assassination Missions might interest you
Pretty sure they used knives, so that much is good.
They would use katanas if they came across them, and probably pawn them later... during the time period where ninja were prevalent, swords were hella hard to get, especially samurai swords. If it helps you understand the concept as to why ninja didn't use katanas, the only katanas that people would normally use were masterworks, made by specialized sword smiths and very tightly restricted.
It's not unlikely that ninja used wakizashi or another variant of the short sword, but they really didn't use katanas... those things are kinda hard to lug around, and rather bulky at that. Ninjato seem to be largely fictional in nature.
Also, Syndicate Assassinations? :o I want to know more about this.
The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.5.6+19.5.6.1
in PC Update Notes
Posted
I don't think it was ever meant to be funny.
And though you may have reached the true endgame, the game has more to it than just how your frames look. The cyst may mess with your design, but it sounds like they'll be introducing a way to handle it soon, if the bit about the Friday Devstream is anything to indicate that.