jragonsoul
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Posts posted by jragonsoul
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8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:
This is incredibly passive in comparison to what he's designed for: Harrow rewards the player (and the team) for getting in the fight and proving himself in combat. Walking and pressing buttons to restore the team is already a role filled by Trinity.
Nah mate, you need the whole quote for this to be effective. Second he already is way more active than Trinity even with the change most of the that most of the people are asking for. You still are active as noted below.
8 hours ago, jragonsoul said:What I don't understand, is how people say letting his allies help with his 2 and 3 will "Turn him passive". HOW?! He still has to cast and he still has to move with the team. He still needs to be playing the game for the team to benefit from anything. This only means he doesn't have to be the main one killing really be effective. Though you still get to play the frame your way.
You don't seem to understand you still get to play the frame YOUR way, this is not an insult BTW just an observation. You just aren't forcing everyone who likes the frame to play your way. Question is why do you want to make people play your way? WF seems to be a game about choice. From the weapons you can use to the builds on your WF's to augments, even how you plane your WF's, and so on and so forth. Making people who play harrow need to play your way seems a little like shoehorning him into a role where sure he benefits the team, if you can get kills and do damage, but if you can't ever for just part of the mission everything is still able to benefit.
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13 hours ago, Bobtm said:
If you were using Mesa's 4, your Harrow allies should have been able to make note of your location and find foes that were out of your LoS to kill by using a basic sense of spatial awareness.
All these folks are asserting that making Harrow's 2 and 3 being changed to work with all players' damage and kills respectively won't make him passive. Yet that is precisely and solely the only thing that the proposed change does. It's literally giving him the option to turn on 2 and 3 then take a nap while the whole squad has infinite energy forever and very high lifesteal on all guns and all melee.
2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:And yes, letting the rest of the team trigger his buffs would turn him passive. That 10% would turn to 0% really quickly, because he wouldn't have to do anything.
What I don't understand, is how people say letting his allies help with his 2 and 3 will "Turn him passive". HOW?! He still has to cast and he still has to move with the team. He still needs to be playing the game for the team to benefit from anything. This only means he doesn't have to be the main one killing really be effective. Though you still get to play the frame your way.
Also Bobtm I run my Mesa, probably at least a little, differently than most people. I hit my 4 at the start of a bullet jump, do a 360 spin kill everything and move on. I rarely stay in my 4 without SOME kind of momentum carrying me. So I am very agile and able to move with the team even during an exterminate. If your Mesa is just a turret Mesa then what you proposed would work fine, but I am anything but "just a turret Mesa."
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17 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:
But in a game where we all are ninja robots and we all can have the same guns, is it reasonable for our damage frames to stop and say "Hey support, stop killing things, it needs to be me who kills everything for some reason"? No support in Warframe is forbidden from getting kills, and if you as Harrow can't get even a few kills* before your allies nuke the map, either you suck at Harrow or your squad is too overpowered for the mission and it wouldn't matter which frame you play. Think about it: if damage frames ult and destroy everything in a few seconds, and can do this constantly throughout the entire mission, do they really need help from a squadmate?
Harrow is an offensive support, but if the team is instakilling everything already his aid is ineffective. Oberon has multiple tools to protect the team, but if the team barely gets hurt he's not effective either. If allies kill everything, Chroma can't ramp up his Vex Armor buffs and he's ineffective, too.
*EDIT: And yes, just a few kills will do. Ramp up 15 Energy on Thurible. Pick off 2 enemies with headshots, just 2, and that's 120 Energy for everyone. Spray a magazine down a hallway at head height and you're bound to make the squad happy with your help. It is not hard unless you find getting headshots hard. In which case, Harrow is a great learning tool.
No one is ASKING Harrow not to kill things. Literally no one has to (Unless it's another Harrow) because in general support and most other WF abilites don't require you to need to be the one doing damage/killing. If this was just a weapons based game I would agree btu considering abilities can put out insame damage in a hug radius or range that's a moot point. I'm not saying only allies should triggger and get his buff. I am saying his allies should ALSO be able to trigger and get his buff. It would literally only make him a BETTER frame. I ran a Sorties earlier as Mesa (Zero forma), we had 2 Harrow's and their damage added up to 8% between them both on average and topping at 13%. Not on any mission did my damage drop below 76%. If I was able to trigger the buffs it would have helped the entire team but because the Harrow's got few kills and did little damage there was no benefit to the team. Before you say there then was "No need for Harrow" people died in the last mission a few times, the health from my damage could have certainly prevented that, Now, Mesa is a more DPS heavy frame example but she is far from the only high DPS example. I get prople don't want Harrow to be passive, but it wouldn't make him passive.
Oberon can rad proc enemies, add armor and give frame HP regen. So the little damage they take is mitigated by the regen and reduced by the armor. If no one ever takes damage he can still rad proc several enemies,
The point on Chroma is more accurate. Chroma can buff the team (depending on color), and do massive damage if needed. I don't see many Chroma's in game usually, but that's probably because the need to take damage in a game were killing or CCing stuff before you take damage is the norm.
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5 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:
this applies to every frame that isnt a quakeshee or mesa or max range saryn, or max range equinox. i dont have issues with nidus so... the problem isnt harrow its pretty clear.
The issue is no other supports have to say "Hey, Mr/Mrs DPS frame, please stop killing stuff so I can support you, pwease!"
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4 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:
excuse me but that isnt a fact. 3 of his abilities effect the entire team and if im not mistaken if the enemy is not able to move or react then it is unable to shoot your team in the face too. what is a fact is that you have to have player input for them to work. its an opinion when talking playstyle really.
What is a fact is that Harrow is a better solo frame than he is a group frame. He has to do damage and get kills to be effective. I would generally rather have Trinity or Oberon currently. Even a Rhino or Inaros, since for CC and damage buff Rhino does it better and for CC and Heals Inaros does it better.
Rhino
1. A damage buff that increases ALL damage the WF's do (not just weapons) and can last much longer than Covenants
2. Insane range and long duration CC.
3. Can't make EVERYONE invincible but least he can always revive you. XD!
Inaros
1. Long duration and range, directional CC that opens enemies to finishers.
2. 2nd single stun that allows allies or him to regen health from
3. 3rd Multi target Stun that heals all allies in range.
Those are just two frames I thought of just off the top of my head. They don't do everything Harrow does but what they also do that he does they do so well he is completely outclassed by them. Letting WF's in range trigger and benefit from his buffs won't make him passive, It makes him a better team player and just a better WF, IMHO.
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15 minutes ago, KainDarkfire said:
@jragonsoul Great, we're comparing frames again, it's even against Trinity, who people already compare Oberon to. Could we not?
Harrow's whole kit is strong and synergetic with itself, you can't compare a single skill across when it's meant to be ran with Harrow's other moves. Also, it works with whatever OP weapon you want, which is something else not very relevant with Trinity (at least until she gets reworked.)
It's only strong and synergetic with using him solo. In a groups he's not a good support. Also I will compare this SUPPORT frame to the other SUPPORT frames in the game. Oberon being compared to Trinity is also fair. I'm not comparing him to lets say Mesa or Rhino since he doesn't do what they do. Through Rhino has better CC and arguably gives a better buff (Affects all damage and not just weapon damage) but I didn't go there. If you don't want an apples to apples comparison what do you want? How are we supposed to get this frame in line with others if we feel he's lacking.
I want so much to love the frame and letting allies get the buff from and trigger his 2 and 3 is the perfect way to do make him good and linking his 3 to 50% affinity range (including vazarin buff) will make him great and not OP. It still requires you to watch buffs, and play smart but doesn't mean you have to out DPS the DPS frames.
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12 minutes ago, Leqesai said:
As one who was all for the idea of putting it on a toggle, I think 120 seconds is very manageable. Especially since you can refresh whenever you want.
Penance is currently in a great place. I don't think any more adjustments need made.
Same with Thurible. Works much better now.
Respectfully I disgree, not on the cap as that is in a good place. I still think the allies need to benefit and their damage and kills need to trigger the healing and the energy regen, even if it's at 50% of Harrows gain. That would make the frame an actual support frame. Going a step further if they gave his Thurible 50% of the current affinity range (So range of 25), affected by Vazarin after it's activated (So a range of 33.5 then) and made it not affected by range mods I think he would be perfect.
(I think the first change is absolutely needed to put him on par with Trinity for energy regen and heals while the second one just makes him so much better and frees up a mod slot giving him more utility.)
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1 hour ago, KainDarkfire said:
It would be completely broken if someone else could trigger the regen.
Meanwhile, could we fix several of the glitches that've shown up for the past 2-3 patches instead of adding more?
- Projectiles broke REALLY HARD on this patch
- Javlok suddenly can't use Tactical Reload; if this was intended, why can Ferrox and Scourge still use it? (And where's the patch notes?)
Oh yeah, you mean like how Trinity can't have someone kill their EV target for instant ener- Oh wait they can, and how Trinity can restore MUCH more energy than Harrow in general. Well at least with his 2, when Harrow does damage it Life Strikes back to the team. It's not like Trinity can just hit 4 and restore all health, shields and give a DR buff.... on yeah I forgot she can. So wait, tell me again what is the point of Harrow as support right now? Except for a few second of invul followed by some crit chance buff?
Don't get me wrong I WANT to like Harrow, hell I want to LOVE Harrow but he is just not a good support right now. I mean if Oberron could give any energy back at all I think he would be a better support on all counts. As it is right now Trinity is at the top, Oberron is in second and Harrow is dead last. This is just for Support mind you, I think i would rather take Harrow (with Oberron a close second) for soloing. He just doesn't work as well as the others in a group setting though.
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On 6/29/2017 at 11:13 AM, SSI_Seraph said:
his 3rd ability is actually useless in a number of comps in that regard.
How are you supposed to kill stuff to provide your team with energy when an equinox/octavia/ember or any aoe is nuking everything you are aiming at, not to mention the fact that everything is dead by the time you are done charging a decent amount.
He's also gated by the fact that if he can't kill something on higher level, he can't do his job correctly.
In his current, he can't replace a trinity in organized play for high level content (clan event and such) or even be useful in regular play because of all the aoes available.
They should either make teamates in range of the thurible contribute to the energy gain with their kills or make it restore energy on headshot (not headshot kills/kills).
I think allowing teammates to proc his 3 is the best solution followed by also locking the ability to 50% of his current affinity range, including the boost from Vazarin maxing the range at 33.5 after Vazarin activation. This makes his only ability not affected by affinity range his 1 and at a 20 meter line that CC's it works well. With just the first change he'd be much better but with both of them it makes him great and frees up a mod slot.
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4 hours ago, Chipputer said:
"We know that 99% of people are saying that Harrow's Thurible has issues because only Harrow can trigger the regen and only on kill, but we all know that they just want to spin that mace faster."
Tone deaf.
I was going to say the same. With that changed (And locking the range to 50% of current affinity range) Harrow would be an A+ WF
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11 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:
I am not counting it out, infact I preaty much build all of my weapons for Status. I am just saying that it's killing potential can be lacking.
Can be yes, but for the right weapons (Yes you do need the right weapons just like for crit) it's insane. Pox, Akbronco Prime, Boar prime. Daikyu, Prisma Grakata, Hek, Scourge, Etc. Now the absolutely best ones are crit + status, but that + status part is important.
Then you have the Tigris prime which is all status and raw damage. Insane DPR.
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On 7/3/2017 at 0:21 AM, MMMTheGamer said:
Completed the quest on Friday (GMT +5) and still haven't received any meele riven. I still have 2 riven slots left.
I just finished mine and I bought Harrow with plat (And even used him to complete the quest the first time) and I still no Melee Riven.
Edit: ok never mind it just popped up.
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Status works wonders if you don't have have 100% CP versus armor (Corrosive) or don't have CC frames (Rad and Blast). Don't count it out, in fact the Sybaris Prime is better later game VS the Dex because of it's status.
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11 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:
Next it will be "nerf the amount of enemies an Ignis can hit at once". You do realize when you nerf something like that, something that is fundamentally the same takes its place.
Pretty sure it's a joke thread but I could be wrong.
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1 minute ago, VenomousValentine said:
Also just because you don't like the weapon doesn't mean it's trash.
....Are you missing the point here? This is the point I was trying to make. You're saying the S&A Prime aren't that good or top tier and others were disagreeing with you.
Just now, VenomousValentine said:Well there are opinions and there's being objectively wrong.
I LIKE the silva and aegis, But it objectively is not top tier. You can think that's irony but I've been objective the whole damn time.
You saw how fast everything died in my video. You can see I am not wrong (and I never used Rhino's damage buff even.) , those were lvl 145 enemies. Again I don't know what you want from the weapon if not to slaughter 145 corrupted enemies like they are lvl 20's.
1 minute ago, PhillipJokar said:The irony.
IKR?!
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Just now, VenomousValentine said:
Like I said, can't post a video for numerous reasons. you're welcome to try it yourself. If you don't want to believe me that's fine.
I have and like a said the Telos IMHO is trash, I do not like it at all. The Jat is close but without the CC you are gonna be hard pressed to get that kind of damage out of it. It's all about what you like. If you don't like the S&A then that's fine but don't say it's bad because you can't use it effectively. That's the point I was trying to make.
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1 minute ago, VenomousValentine said:
Slash is king when they still have armor. There are still top tier weapons that aren't slash like the jatt kitag and telos boltace.
Both of which do more than the silva and aegis :^)
I love the Jatt Kitag (Still not batter than the S&A Prime, but to each their own) but the Telos Boltace is trash IMHO. So vids for proof or GTFO?
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Just now, VenomousValentine said:
I know that's exactly what I do. You don't need four, if you have three with coaction drift.
Hence the "Or 100% armor reduction" addition. So you do use the S&A prime with viral and 100% armor reduction. I thought damage and slash was king?
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2 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:
Agreed.
Oh almost forgot, also if you bring 4 CP's you can trade Corrosive for Viral (Since late game if you don't have 4 CP's or 100% armor reduction, you're doing it wrong). Have fun cutting all enemies health in half and killing them twice as fast with S&A Prime if you have all the CC you need.
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2 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:
The CC thing is literally irrelevant, considering late game, if you're not CCing everything you're doing it wrong.
So just bring the atterax or galatine prime, since later game if you don't have slash you're doing it wrong.
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2 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:
Oh I thought you were talking about the other guy.
I mean S#&$ you guys have these weapons, I don't have good recording software. Test if your yourselves and see.
1 minute ago, VenomousValentine said:Not to mention my hardware can't handle it.
I have, I showed you, your response was other weapons do it better. I also tested on of the best weapons in the game and you need A LOT more CC to makes use of it's more damage. You then say damage is king but miss the point of this weapon being nearly as good with damage and better without CC. I don't know what you want at this point.
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2 minutes ago, PhillipJokar said:
They are good. They can clear endgame level content in a reasonable amount of time, and in a mission they're oneshot viable.
There it is.
Not just viable, not just usable in all content, not just thematic
"top tier"
Thinking like this is why problems appear in the first place.
I don't know about you but I think it is top tier. They aren't wanting top tier, they are wanting Naramon + atterax = OP it seems.
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Just now, VenomousValentine said:
And numerous other weapons can do it better. Those are the ones that are top tier.
Ok, you get a video up of those and I'll counter it. Go ahead. I'll wait.
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4 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:
But that's the thing, I care about damage numbers AND fun. And spamming slide attack isn't fun.
The silva and aegis are in fact fun. That's why i want them to be good.
Excuse me for wanting a MR12 weapon to be top tier.
Dude, it IS good. Literally everyone in this thread is saying it's good, two warframe partners think is good, I showed a video of it destroying a group lvl 145 corrupted enemies after you complained they were only killing single 145's or lvl 50's. It doesn't have slash damage innately, so either play with a slash damage weapon or enjoy the S&A for what it is. A REALLY REALLY good (Best in class) Sword and Board weapon.
[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow
in Warframes
Posted
Oh I bring hundred's of large Ammo, Energy, Health and Shield Pizzas. They are life savers sometimes.