KavasMasta
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Posts posted by KavasMasta
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33 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:
First of all, you need a better understanding of what strawman means.
Now, I do not care if you helped 5 friends or 50 friends. The very fact that your statement belittles free players proves what I said was indeed true. And helping friends doesn't change that part.
As for countering my arguments, you haven't really countered any of my arguments neither have you solved the paradox I mentioned in 2 previous posts. As a matter of fact, you have not provided any actual counter-arguments to anyone in this thread as to why we should agree your idea is good. Everything points to the opposite. All you ever did in this thread is write the same stuff again and again for everyone that countered your idea with facts.
Thats not counter-argument. Thats just you sticking to your own ideas ignoring all the problems all of us have mentioned here. So, I don't even know why I am bothering to even reply. I guess I will just stop because no matter how much I and others tell you that your idea increases grind way too much, you are going to tell us that ranking up Serration is a big deal when it is clearly not and I know it because I have multiple accounts that I made in these 4 years to test out how DE changed the new player experience.
Meh just don't start throwing out things like "hes a founder he doesn't care about the new players" is my point.
hope that my previous reply fixed the paradox (sorry i never answered it because i thought my other replies would have solved it)
still doesn't increase the grind at all because the grind that you think is increasing is already in place.
i just don't like how i only have 7 mod slots and a slot for serration offering a solution to the big problem that is mandatory mods like point blank serration hornet strike and pressure point
when you feel like not giving up and coming back tell me why the current system is so much better then what i have proposed
thank you
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8 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:
By your method, a new player needs to max out 30 other weapons to get the fullest out of his/her early game weapon like Braton or Latron. This means that if the new player builds a Braton and Latron and a Boltor, every single of these weapons will be underpowered because the player hasn't maxed out a bunch of other weapons, and now since the player can not get damage from Serration, this will create a paradox. So, the player needs to craft more weapons to get a better Boltor, but without a better Boltor (s)he can not farm enough materials to get more weapons to get a better Boltor. Understand the paradox here?
1. it wont make them under-powered in fact it will steadily increase there damage as they rank up with what they give you in the begining you will hit mastery rank 2 which could (depending how DE would balance it) increase the damage by 20-60%
2. this actually makes them more powerful as it adds more slots for things that increase fire rate and status damage or even the status chance cc or accuracy
3. this actually makes the grind easier for mastery ranking because all weapons that you use (Even at Rank 0) gain the damage increase making mastery ranking up feel much more satisfying
besides the fact you would only need the amount of weapons and warframes that i said in the spoiler
1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:I have nothing against Founders or players who spend money. If anything, I appreciate that because they generate revenue to keep the business. What I do not like is when those people look down on free players as if they are some lords and free players are some low born slave.
Just as much a F2P game needs paying players, it needs free players as well. Because like it or not, number of free players are much more than paying players in a F2P game and these free players prevent the playerbase from dying.
Yes, I was a bit sharp, but then again, I won't change my view on the fact that OP said that people have issues if they play a F2P game completely for free.
I do apologize and see the error of saying that free to play players aren't what make the game go you made a sound point that they keep the game populated but my system doesn't require people to buy more weapon slots it just requires them to recycle weapons more this was a choice that DE m,ade to make people fup a small amount of money to make the game less restraining
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The fact that you are forcing players to max out serration is already an issue because the mod is mandatory which is the purpose of this argument or even ranking it up when you could put more creative mods into your weapon or even start building the status damage up
2. that's why i put up the idea of non linear damage increase on the mastery rank increase
3. not true at all considering that all players at endgame must have serration in order to do decent damage and keep up with the increasingly difficuly high waves of survival and people need to leave because there damage is not high enough is extremely annoying to me also refer to the mastery damage scales up with other players around you.
4. i will give the best farming locations on rotation c its 1.3% those are pretty much the same for all suvival excavation and spy missions basically a 1/10 chance of getting it
on top of that if you're farming those you may as well be exp grinding but thats just me (those are on mercury and earth and there are some other places that drop it but have like a 6.09% chanceSpoilerExcavation (T1, T2, T3)
Interception (T1, T2)Rot B
Serration Rare (9.09%)
Survival (DS1, DS2, DS3, T1, T2, T3)Rotation B
Serration Rare (7.14%)
Spy (Lua, T1, T2)
Defense (DS)
Enemies:
Electric Crawler (0.17%)
Kuva Scorpion (0.22%)
Nauseous Crawler (0.33%)
Scorpion (0.22%)
Other:
Orokin Tower Containers5. But at least you will have damage that will help you out without having to waste a mod slot increasing damage even more at lower ranks allowing you to put on things like fire rate and condi mods
6. assuming that you level at least 4 war frames you can easily break rank six (use the data provided in my topic)
7. you win that argument but the argument does oppose my argument at all.
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The only reason that people don't like this idea is because its a big change and it seem (WHEN IT REALLY ISNT) attacking lower mastery ranked players
when in fact it IS ONLY HELPING THEM so I rest my case
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also i have 5 friends that i helped getting though the ranks of this game since all of the endgame stuff i do is mastery locked or quest locked
so saying i'm "elitist" is an argument fallacy called strawman also calling me an elitist is irrelevant because I'm counter arguing all of your points and the fact that you have devolved into calling me an elitist is proof enough that you have no more counters to my point
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2 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:
No it doesn't. Before you put forward an argument, be sure to check if you yourself have the right info.
And the below is not hard for a MR5 player. While your method would give an MR5 only +50%, even a R8 Serration will give 135%. And that damage is needed. +50% will do nothing very soon. Sooner than you can even realise.
Who told you that?
If a whole Damage 2.0 can happen, so can that. It is nothing hard to balance out the low level gameplay to match the progression.
Unfortunately, thats your OPINION. Gameplay designs are not supposed to be based on opinions, as simple as that.
Yes, most of those require MR5 or MR6. The maximum you could show for a frame was MR7, thats Titania. However, going to MR5 isnt that hard. The problem starts when your logic is followed. According to your idea, MR5 will get +50% damage. That won't do S#&$ in the later parts.
And I haven't seen you solve the paradox I told you about in my previous post.
While the present MR locks do not interfere with your damage progression, your method does.
Right now, a new player can work on ranking up the Serration on Boltor or Braton to actually gather resources from the higher level star chart missions to build new weapons.
Tell me again how the F will a new player gather resource to build new weapons in the first place if they can not take on the high level planets?
Are you even understanding the paradox here?
In your 'fabulous' method, new players can not get damage increase unless they build other weapons, but to build most other weapons, they need the damage to be able to collect resources from later planets. That is a paradox right there. I don't know how else am I supposed to make you understand that.
50 plat will give a new player 1 frame and 4 weapon slots or 2 frame slots or 8 weapons slots. The highest MR points they can get from that is 24k+12k from 2 starting frame slot+18k from starting 6 weapon slots.
Thats a total of 54k MR points.
With 54k MR points, they would be only MR4, meaning +40% damage bonus. Since MR5 needs 62.5k MR points.
I hope you realise why people are against your idea with the below screenshot -
Any sane player would prefer spending 7k credits and 140 Endo to get +60% damage over "building and ranking 2 frames and 14 weapons to get +40% damage"
So, yeah, your idea is beyond ridiculous and was put forward without even a little research.
No, I do not have issue if I need to play this game 100%. This is a classic example of elitism here and after this statement, I am not even going to bother with your useless idea.
There is a thing called 'Currency Rates'. Some people are not fortunate enough to be born in developed countries. That does not mean they are not allowed to play games.
The very reason they chose a F2P game is due to this fact. Because they might have time, but not enough money to spend on a game.
I don't know if you realize, but this statement is offensive and shows your ignorance about real world.
so it take 20k endo i admit i made ahuge mistake there but doest solve the fact it takes 40k endo to max out bot hornet strike and serration not including point blank and 1.8mil credits is still a large amount (and in my opinion another mastery lock)
2. low rank masteries are easier to level up then high rank masteries similarly the serration takes much more to unlock then higher ones effectively creating the same effect as the modding
3. i made this post because it WONT need to COMPLETELY rebalence the game because that creates a huge amount of manpower needed this takes a few lines of code and some moving around.
4. new players cant get serration and have to get broken serration which is an even bigger waste of endo
5. the game gives you mastery ranks 0- 2 in the beginning with earth nodes and weapons
6. players get the mastery by buying the mk1 weapons is a possibility there are 6 of them on top of the 8 ones that you can buy without building
7. sorry that games don't run on free players man i don't see any advertisements in game
if i missed anything please tell me im exausted rn
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well no one every supports and idea in the forums unless its a dev post
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10 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:
I have to admit Kavas, the idea itself is sound & will make levelling MR, more something you should do, then just do and forget. However, I can see you already attempted to counter argument of the cons, via "Elite" players being well..most elite.
However, I'll address an issue I have as well: Founders, they have gear that gave them XP, in the result, we will never be able to reach the maximum rank (If it has one, in the end). Due to such, a lot of people will start clawing at your throats, even more than they already are.
So, I like your idea, but the following changes need to happen before an idea like this will come to light.
1. MR Ranking: This needs to be much easier, no more "24h" waiting, no more "If you fail, you fail". Allow us to do the test and be done with MR.
2. Founders Items: All XP, removed, period. no question.
1. MR Ranking: This needs to be much easier, no more "24h" waiting, no more "If you fail, you fail". Allow us to do the test and be done with MR.
tbh this erks the crap out of me and should be reduced to like 8 hours or something.
2. Founders Items: All XP, removed, period. no question.
meh we payed $100 early on in the game to get it started i think we earned the extra 10k mastery thats just me
the idea that they completely remove ways to get items like the braton vandal it was only available for 3 days for 1 credit the weekend before i started (btw this was closed beta and it took 3 days to get into it) does kinna annoy me but the problem with it is is the people that already got it to thirty could lose their mastery rank and thats a HUGE nono.
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2 minutes ago, Rekkou said:
Yep, but your system forced it sooner than later. Makes it the worse system
in my opinion trying new weapons makes the game more fresh and fun there are many weapons like penta amprex flux rifle sybaris drakoon ect that look cool and pull people into them anyway
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9 hours ago, Xarteros said:
0.5) Full stops and commas are your friend =P Sorry, it was just hard to read a sentence that long.
1) Maybe you're misunderstanding... Say a weapon has 100 damage at rank 30. Maybe it starts at 60-80 damage at rank 0. Sure, if it starts at 5-10 damage at rank 0, that's a different story. A slight damage decrease at low level wouldn't make any real difference at all, since low-level enemies get slaughtered by unranked, unmodded weapons. Seriously. It wouldn't be that major. Warframes already get 1/3rd of their shields and health to start with, and it hasn't broken the game somehow.
2) You're calling for mastery-based damage. There is no higher tier of extra grind than having to farm for blueprints, farm for resources, unlock research, farm for relics, and grind out every single available weapon just to increase mastery. I'm not even specifically against it, but I know it'd just generate a lot of whining from low-levels, elitism from high-levels, and it would just promote people mass-farming XP even more than they already do. Less people will actually bother trying weapons out, so it just homogenises the entire game into even more of a boring grind. Plenty of players keep a low mastery because they find weapons and warframes that they really like, and mostly stick with them. Why should they be punished moreso than they already are?soory for the lack of commas and grammar but id like to see you try to counter all of these people fast paced.
1)cause that will pull people away from the mastery system making the mastery grind that much worse making people want to stick to that 1 level 30 weapon they have because they don't want to deal leveling the next one to 30 because it has trash damage at lvl 0
2) countered this in my main topic
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5 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:
Add in a -165% damage debuff on those areas?
then it pisses of veteren players so no
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5 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:
Ok, so I read through the thread a bit.
So, from a new player POV, what you are essentially telling me is that to get the best out of my MK1 Braton or Braton, I need to level up and max out about 50 other weapon?
Not gonna work.
Lets take each of your points and probe a bit further -
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Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
Ok, so this can be solved by re-balancing the game around the new system. However, going by your idea, even that would screw up the balance of the game, just in the opposite way. By your method, a new player needs to max out 30 other weapons to get the fullest out of his/her early game weapon like Braton or Latron. This means that if the new player builds a Braton and Latron and a Boltor, every single of these weapons will be underpowered because the player hasn't maxed out a bunch of other weapons, and now since the player can not get damage from Serration, this will create a paradox. So, the player needs to craft more weapons to get a better Boltor, but without a better Boltor (s)he can not farm enough materials to get more weapons to get a better Boltor. Understand the paradox here?
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It will reduce grind for Endo which is better
Indeed, it will reduce the grind for Endo. But instead, it adds a far worse grind.
So, now a new player needs to get Serration>Get Endo>Get Credits>Level up Serration.
After your idea is implemented, new player needs to get Boltor>Get credits>Get a bunch of weapon BPs>Farm enough resources to build those weapons>Farm enough platinum to actually be able to store those weapons(slots)>Farm enough XP to level each of those weapons to 30.
Now this also includes the fact that different resources come from different planets and the newbie will not have access to those planets and resources thus preventing them from actually building a bunch of weapons.
Excuse me, but the first method is infinitely more easier and honestly, if the newbie needs to farm platinum for slots, why on earth would't (s)he just farm enough platinum to buy a maxed Serration outright?
This does not make any sense whatsoever.
Right now, your idea seems worse than the current system. Sorry.
Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
Ok, so this can be solved by re-balancing the game around the new system.^this will never happen^
and after that no what this will do is make weapons that players you level up withn them so while they are playing the game it will help them understand what damage types work on what enemies and the underpowered statement is already a thing with serration????
i added a rebutlle for the second part in my post and grinding the play for a serration is a grind within itself a contradiction it will be under powered if you run a 40 mission with an mk1 braton duh
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Tying damage to level of the weapons will screw up the early game balance.
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9 hours ago, Rekkou said:
Nope, i don't assume anything, getting Endo does not dictate gameplay nor obliged players to do anything else so assumption of new players behaviour is not needed at all. While your system will force them to get new weapons or warframes and you justify it because you assume that every players will do their game exactly as you did.
oops i frorced players to get 20 weapons from the market and 4 warframes to grind my b
you forced to grind all of it sooner or later
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2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:
How about an even more simple solution to this problem?
Just buff up every weapon for +165% damage. We already got weapons what are soo useless even max serration cant make them kill lv30+ enemies.
making a edit for people who refuse to read
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made changes to topic to counter argue the mastery grind
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6 hours ago, DEADSHOT456 said:
You can't be anymore wrong. An MR5 is high enough to max out Serration. Hell, buying a maxed Serration is damn easy. I would agree if you were talking about Primed Point Blank, But no, you are talking about Serration, Hornet Strike and even regular Point Blank. Those are not at all hard to max out. This happened due to the change to Endo from Fusion Cores. Now we need much less grind to max out Common and Uncommon mods.
it takes 40k endo and 1 mil credits to max out a damage mod money (you wont have that much endo at rank 5-8) that you are spending on getting cool things you see in the market
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Edited it to contain more points
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3 minutes ago, Rekkou said:
The basic idea of Serration is that its progression is not tied to anything other than getting Endo, which can be gotten from any places even on mercury. Your system ties it to weapons, warframes, planets and mastery test. Yet you're trying to make it sounds like getting Endo for maxing Serration is something that new players can't do while it's the complete opposite.
you are assuming that all the endo they passively get will automatically go into serration which i guarantee it doesn't also the credits at lower levels are nearly impossible to get
btw its 20.9k endo and 1mil credits to max serration
though we cant forget im also talking about point blank and hornet strike as well as pressure point which im sure makes it well over 60k endo and 3 mil credits
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Just now, InDueTime-EN- said:
Making people need to rank up is not a good thing. I stuck to my frost with galatine, soma and atomos for a great chunk of my warframe life and didn't really rank up my mastery until I finally decided to start trading. It would also be hard for a lot of new players to rank up because for them, resources and credits are scarce. They would be forced to intense grinding experience rather than playing the game at a pace that they are comfortable with.
However, I do like your 2 other points as they promote team play. (that doesn't stop the experienced player to run around like he's playing solo though) But it does make them want to stay near objectives and not leave their team mates.
I stuck to my frost with galatine, soma and atomos
all already mastery locked
It would also be hard for a lot of new players to rank up because for them, resources and credits are scarce. They would be forced to intense grinding experience rather than playing the game at a pace that they are comfortable with.
an incorrect assumption you could go through the game at your own pace with players your level and/or friends that you already have playing the game and just go through the game anyway but with an increase in damage steadily as they do
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15 minutes ago, Xarteros said:
Doesn't need to be much of a damage gap. Don't think of it with such a limited scope. Warframes, I recall, start with 1/3rd of their rank 30 Health and Shields, but there's no reason weapons need to follow this formula. Besides, the first few levels come very quickly.
And of course it's relevant to this discussion. You suggested a scaling system based on Mastery Rank. I'm simply countering with an alternate system that scales on over-levelled usage. A forum is here for alternate ideas and discussion mate, otherwise you'd be better off with a yes/no poll =P1
basically grind your weapons up to 30 and then do the star system missions theres alot of flaws with making the weapons increase stats with levels how many times do you think DE has heard this suggestion from this discussion alone in founders chat i heard this same suggestion 7 times from different people so no i dont think that is the solution because:
- it screws up early game because you can just get abounch of people to level up your weapon then breeze through early game <-------- main reason
- it would cause even more incentive to exp grind
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Sounds like extra grind to me which most of the people in this thread are against if you haven't read
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12 minutes ago, InDueTime-EN- said:
Mastery has always been just a bonus to players, it has never been a requirement and has mostly been irrelevant no matter what some players may think. It is quite easy to get carried all the way to MR 23 in just a few weeks and still barely know how to play the game. Meanwhile, someone could spend his time playing with just 1 set of gear for a long time mastering everything without their mastery every moving.
If you tie mastery to something that affects gameplay this much then it would cause a large divide between the players and would make it a lot harder for new players to get into the game because now you have even more players choosing not to play with them.
It would just be better to remove serration entirely end just halve the EHP of enemies. (not saying that should happen, but that it is a better option compared to tying damage to master.the spoiler answers this
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9 minutes ago, Rekkou said:You're only suggesting hypothetical cap, if the system is implemented, no guarantee DE will apply the same cap. And it doesn't change the fact the basic system is bad, it forces players to keep acquiring new weapons or warframes to progress, instead of just using whatever they like.
This system only favors you because you're already there with the help of Serration. Newer players have to repeat them without Serration. Not to mention this system will widen the gap between paying players and free players.
Warframes have problems but your system will only amplify those problems.
I'd like to believe that when/if DE reads this they will strongly consider the cap also this can only benefit new players because since it automatically applies after mastery tests they dont need to farm endo to specifically use it on damage mods... which they would have to do anyway because no one under rank 8 had a maxed out serration mod (well until the endo system) and even so my mastery rank 8-9 friend still haven't maxed it out
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11 minutes ago, Xarteros said:
The issue is that making it based off mastery would inherently make too much push to just grind weapons meaninglessly.
What I'd suggest is to have weapons gain damage as they rank up (like how Warframes gain stats as they level), but to reward people for playing longer, have an extra value of Bonus damage that can be unlocked by playing with the weapon beyond 30 (based on kills/usage value). Obviously, cap the value, but maybe have the cap be higher for your #1 top weapon for each category? Like, give it +50% power maximum if you play with it up to its maximum threshold, but give it +75% or +100% damage if it's your all time #1.
Ideally, I'd give it boosts in brackets similar to Melee combos. If that were the case, you could allow some higher power tiers to be reached with 'lesser' weapons, and you could base the damage multiplier off the riven disposition, so if a weapon gets buffed/nerfed and the disposition changes, your damage bonus from long use is similarly balanced.
You could even implement a cooldown system, so if you start using something else more, it diminishes the bonus power of your other over-leveled weapons, so it doesn't become a side-objective to max the capacity of every weapon (although that might be nice in certain regards).
I like the idea that someone takes a crappy weapon all the way to its maximum potential. Imagine the noob who brings a Lato, only to reveal that he's spent 1500 hours playing with it, and it tears through enemies like a Symphona PrimeWhat I'd suggest is to have weapons gain damage as they rank up screws up early game
39 minutes ago, KavasMasta said:Because then that would screw up early game (you get rank 10 with weapons by the time you finish earth) which would make enemies not even a challenge quite simply the scaling would be bad
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but to reward people for playing longer, have an extra value of Bonus damage that can be unlocked by playing with the weapon beyond 30 (based on kills/usage value).
i like it but not relevant to this discussion
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going to sleep after this ill check back tommarow
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Just now, Rekkou said:
Except that people don't and shouldn't have to get weapons and warframes they don't like. With this system all weapons and warframes are mandatory because it becomes required exp to progress. Slots will also becomes a problem, and if you're gonna say that you can get 12-20 plats by trading, then you're just adding another layer of grind to your system. This system also widens the gap between paying players and free players.
So far this systems negative points far outweighs the positive
1 you get mastery from completing the star system which can basically get you to mastery 3 plus to get to the quests you need to get to mastery rank 5 rivens are already mastery locked.
anywho (With this system all weapons and warframes are mandatory because it becomes required exp to progress.(this right here is completely uintrue because the mastery system damage would be caped at anywhere from 8 to 10 making only like 40 weapons -max- mandatory (if you only do weapons)
weapons slots are already a problem other then the fact that all players should use the 50 starting play to buy weapon slots to start off the fact you can just cycle through weapons is a thing being the minimun slots is like 7 Solution to not buying weapon slots cycle and buy and sell the weapons. thats what i did back in the old days of warframe
you're negative points already exist in the game without this change or look at the solutions
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10 minutes ago, Rekkou said:
Not a good idea, Mastery ranks tied to weapons and warframe, getting warframe and weapons are tied to grinding. Progression based on mastery ranks means you're exponentially increasing the amount of grind required to progress.
Serration -> Grind to get serration -> Grind for Endo
Mastery based progression -> Grind to get blueprints -> Grind resources/parts -> waiting for craft -> Maxing it to lv 30
you grind for endo at level 40 area places where mastery rank 1-7 can even get to
besides everything you just said is a part of playing warframe anyway? i have to grind to get my Tigris prime
in my opinion the later is much simpler because your doing more than one thing at once get resources not only for weapons for gear and warframes blueprints is a grind anyway plus playing the quests you're forced to get masteries anyway
it would also define the damage for lower levels
basically you're cutting out the farm for the serration mod
in fact it would make grinding easier since you don't have to worry about having not enough mod capacity for serration
The Ultimate Solution to Get Rid of the Serration Mod
in Weapons
Posted · Edited by KavasMasta
its similar to my idea of having a mastery rank higher player with you and it buffs your damage
thats a really roundabout way of doing it i guess