Tyreaus
-
Posts
3,441 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Tyreaus
-
-
5 hours ago, ant99999 said:
In other words my opinion remains that Conclave would've been better as a separate game.
To add:
There's certain unspoken "rules" Conclave has to follow when it's tied to Warframe proper. For example, the roster has to pull from items in PvE, not all of which are suitable for a PvP environment—and vice versa for PvP weapons that could exist but, because they aren't in PvE, don't. Same goes for many animations. Crazy flips and such are just style points in PvE, but introduce a level of utter insanity in PvP that even old arena shooters never touch. But because it's part of Warframe, that can't be changed, even if it could be for the better.
Plus, like you allude to: advertising and marketing. Warframe is largely intellectual. You win via builds, not crazy shooter skills. Conclave is the precise inverse. And the thing is, if you'd like Conclave gameplay, you'll be dissuaded by mandatory PvE. It filters in both directions. That's why I've said, so often, that PvP equipment should not require PvE engagement at all. It's not just a "no bleedover" principle: that you need to engage in PvE means you're filtering players who could enjoy PvP, but simply won't get to that point via the PvE slog they dislike.
-
2
-
-
I think a core problem is that there's no ending.
If I boot up The Binding of Isaac, I know I can win. How difficult it is might vary based on items provided, but the game is so designed that, with sufficient skill, I can win with anything.
If I boot up the Circuit, I can't say I can win, because there is no "winning." It's endless. There's no victory condition, other than the one I arbitrarily set.
In the former, items don't determine victory, but difficulty. In the latter, there is no definition of "victory" other than what we set for ourselves—a certain round number, for example. Chances are, however, some setups aren't going to make the cut. And that means items do determine victory. It becomes "losing by RNG", a notion heavily disliked since before Liches, despite the fact "losing" in this case is arbitrary.
Of course, that arbitrary notion of "victory" also explains why tolerance of randomness is varied. If your win condition is one round, most everything can cut the mustard. The RNG is just determining difficulty, as with TBoI. Make that ten rounds in Steel Path and it's a different story. That also changes how much one can tolerate "bad" setups. It's one thing to have a bothersome self-knockdown explosive setup, another for that to end the run in a loss.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, Sulferon said:
The core of the problem is the Combo counter and complete lack of range of most melees.
This is half of it. But it misses the other half: guns and gun arcanes / stacking mods.
This suggestion fixes that half, though. It allows us to go from guns to melee without suffering damage loss, as we no longer lose combo counter stacks. However, the same doesn't apply to the inverse. If we muck around with melee, even if we use Dexterity, we may lose out on galvanized mod stacks.
The result ends up maintaining a focus on ranged weapons. Using ranged weapons means we can maintain combo counter and weapon arcanes / galvanized mods. If we use melee weapons, we only get half the deal. So it ends up being better to primarily use ranged options. That on top of what's mentioned regarding ranged weapons being good anywhere and melee having more limited niches. Open worlds will seldom be kind to a sword.
So if we want to really mix gameplay together, we'd best look at all those "focused stacking" elements, not just the combo counter. E.g., changing out the likes of Merciless or Galvanized Diffusion to be on any kill, not just a kill with that particular weapon. The more those are unified, the more painless swapping weapons becomes. Not just ranged and melee, mind; it also bolsters swapping off an empty (AoE) primary weapon by maintaining damage stacks on the secondary.
-
3
-
-
I'd say the opposite.
The main problem with incentivizing Steel Path is that it comes with expectations. Rewards have to be achievable by a really good portion of the playerbase and all that sort of jazz. You have to balance for it, because there's an expectation a vague percent of weapons can handle it. Remember the whole melee dominance fiasco that led to weapon arcanes? That came only after Steel Path. It was always there, endurance players would encounter that regularly. But Steel Path popularized it. That led to changes in the entire balance landscape.
All that balance skewing makes Steel Path equivalent to—or at least tend towards—the starchart. And at that point, what's special about it? The main purpose of Steel Path as a hard mode efficacy notwithstanding and a stress test for weapons got erased. For the most part, we're back where we started. Barring, of course, the resultant power creep and all the issues that causes. Wasn't that long ago that reaching level cap was a feat reserved for old Covert Lethality. Now it's becoming a regular occurrence. That keeps up and the game won't have the upward mobility for a hard mode, or anything resembling "more difficulty".
-
Yeah some skins are sometimes bugged in Conclave. Sometimes not. Unfortunately, there's not much you yourself can do. Best bet is to change out what helmet you're using and see if that helps matters. But, sometimes, it won't.
-
1 hour ago, (NSW)Zakaveus said:
True, and I can understand that. We can only hope that one day they have the capital to do so someday! Even in the state it is in now I still have fun messing around in pvp.
It's not really about the capital. The point of a business is to generate profits. How worthwhile a business venture is—the profits it can generate—can be calculated via (expected revenues) / (projected risk) - (expenses). The riskier a venture, the less likely it'll generate profit, and so the less worthwhile it is to do.
With that said, there's an alternative "shotgun" approach, where you just chuck cheap ideas out into the public and see what sticks. This isn't done often because starting up any venture is a lot of work. But in the context of a video game mode, it's a lot easier to do. Flappy Zephyr, Wyrmius, Shawzin, Lunaro—they're all random start-up ideas that can be done on the cheap. Some of them have stuck and have been expanded, dropping almost all the risk and boosting revenues. Others haven't, but they're so low-cost it's hardly worth a footnote in a ledger. That's why much of my feedback on ideas like this thread focus on the costs. PvP doesn't have a great reputation in Warframe, so any idea is going to come with high risk. But that's not as big of a deal if it costs pennies to try.
See, also, why I've advocated for bringing back variant modes, and other goofy-ish, low-cost PvP takes. They probably won't work, but they're low-cost, and if one of them happens to land, hey hey hey.
-
59 minutes ago, Qriist said:
"Oh no, a person with an opposing view has effectively rebutted my position, please God censor him."
For saying you refuted their position, you never did reply to the part about the Circuit forcing semi-auto weapons on the player. That nullifies the idea of just using different weapons to compensate. Moreover, the response of "then don't play Warframe" is against the developer's interests: more players = more popularity = more players cyclically = more revenue. Of course, you don't want to break the game in the process of accommodating players; however, auto weapons and macro usage (for this particular case) are both allowed and acknowledged by the developer. The only new ground this idea treads is solidifying that as an intentional design feature. Finally, for what this proposes: you can keep it turned off. It asks for an accessibility feature, not that it must be the default. And, after all, isn't that the same sort of advice you're bequeathing?
-
3
-
-
I don't usually like bumping threads, but I had an interesting game theory situation come up today.
I was playing against another user with a Mios. Now, neither of us are idiots. After a few encounters, we both figured that, in closed-in spaces (hallways and the like), they win. I don't have good melee weapons and just, generally, suck with melee. Conversely, in open spaces, their melee wouldn't work anywhere near as well, and I'd tend to win. So what happened?
Nothing.
Boiling it down, we had no reason to enter the other's area of dominance. If I stay in my area, nothing happens, I get nothing. If I enter theirs, I get beat, and I still get nothing. I gain nothing by putting myself in a compromising position, and lose nothing by staying in my comfort zone. They're in the same boat. So we stayed to our areas and...nothing happened.
Well, mostly, at least. A few peeks, some glancing pot-shots, that sort of almost-excitement.
To be clear: that's probably not a super common situation. But it happens and it's avoidable. You just need an incentive for players to step into disadvantageous scenarios. Like, y'know, getting a smidge of standing for giving it a go and getting a few hits in. Hint hint, nudge nudge.
-
1
-
-
6 minutes ago, taiiat said:
Deep Learning Scripts are supposed to be over 99% accurate - can't say whether it would be in this type of game, but.
Oh, DLS. Yeah, even if it would work, going that far for a little bit of AFK automation in a game that's only about 3 steps removed from automation on a good day seems way overkill lol. Might be good for Conclave but that's not exactly the main selling point.
3 hours ago, Paranoia-Agent said:hey since you said all this stuff ill show you my builds real quick. you said unranked braton we have mods and the core for this game play is centered around impact and punch through not slash like it is in pve
Colour my curiosity piqued.
-
3 minutes ago, taiiat said:
i can see a slight amount of use for Anybrain in the rest of the game, to combat against AFKbotting and such - but i'm not sure that is applicable enough to be worth it, and then Conclave benefitting by extension.
Something to consider, also, is the trade-off for accessibility. They could ban scripts that enable automation, but chances are, doing that would also catch scripts used for RSI prevention. DE has, just about, explicitly said that's why they don't ban scripting across the board. It's not a thick line between scripting Wukong walking in circles and scripting a bullet jump macro to a single keybind.
-
6 minutes ago, Paranoia-Agent said:
did you look at the link.
They're still right: it's not likely worth the cost.
For one, PvE is the core of Warframe. Balance and fairness aren't that important compared to a competitive shooter.
For two, Warframe is much more centred around gear than skill. Being able to hit heads all day won't exactly help your unmodded Mk-1 Braton work in the Steel Path.
Lastly, Warframe is a horde shooter game with a pretty hefty AoE meta. AoE weapons are, oftentimes, best used when not aiming at a particular target. Rather, you want to hit a particular area to hit as many targets in a group as possible. Something like an aimbot can end up being detrimental.
So this kind of cheating is pretty much entirely isolated to Conclave.
Also, you might want to remove that video. That's looking pretty close to advertising for the cheat system. Better to give that as little attention as possible. Besides, showing that sort of thing is a good way to paint a target on your back for the forum mods.
-
1
-
-
26 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:
Equinox: definitely can be good but was seriously hit hard with the addition of eximus 2.0. She is very high investment as she has the worst energy economy out of any frame by having two channeling abilities. Her role as a supportive dps/healer is vastly overshadowed by other frames, and two of her best helminth combinations (gloom and parasitic armor) were both nerfed a ton which combined with multiple abilities failing to be cast on eximus heavily damaged her survivability.
FWIW, I've found Silence over her 3 to be surprisingly effective for her survivability, making her able to get into Steel Path with only a bit of Adaptation and Arcane Blessing or whichever grants health on orb pickup. The stun and Eximus nullification, coupled with Resting other targets and regaining shields / shield gates via Mend, helps a ton. Maybe not Steel Path endurance level survivability, but not a pushover either, and since it isn't a channeled ability, ends up pretty cheap to upkeep.
(You could probably do better if you paired the stun on Silence with the slow on augmented 3, but I haven't gone and tried that myself.)
The bigger problem I ran into at that level was making use of Maim. Amour resists it so hard that I just gave up on using it. And, of course, my personal pet peeve is, and forever will be, that she's the pinnacle of botched thematics. Her entire shtick is transitioning between two forms, so lets make it cost as much as humanly possible to dissuade players from doing so. Costs energy, costs time, costs an ability slot (compare Limbo), and costs any charges built up unless you have an augment (and Peaceful Provocation kicks the bucket even with that augment IIRC). I think the only other speedbump left unused is making the game hard-crash to desktop.
-
1
-
-
2 hours ago, thetdw2000 said:
This is the kind of situation where they could easily implement this as a mod (like Deep Rock Galactic's automatic fire overclock for the Subata 120 which increases fire rate but also increases recoil) but because they refuse to address the flaws in the modding system such a mod would be considered a "waste of a slot".
The problem with a mod slot, even in the ideal "not a waste of a slot" situation, is that it becomes an accessibility feature you have to farm for. That's decidedly not good. We still get issues with players encountering nausea from recoil effects, because "enable screen shake" doesn't affect that and grinding for recoil reduction mods is a ways into their future. (Note that the straightforward fix for that is to move the reticle and stabilize the camera.)
2 hours ago, thetdw2000 said:Then again they could also lean more into the hand cannon (i.e. magnus) vs bullet hose (i.e. akstiletto) divide, where each shot of a semi-auto is very powerful and capable of one-tapping enemies (at the cost of a very slow fire rate) whereas the bullet hose lets you more easily spray and pray.
They kind of did this, but it's run into a few issues.
First, the weapon identities got mucked around. People liked fast-firing Vasto, super rad gunslinger mode. Now, because it was hit so hard on the fire rate—to differentiate from other pistols, I guess?—it's too slow to pull that off.
Second, fire rate mods screwed with everything. They intended for five rounds per second to be the top-end. Slap a Gunslinger mod on, though, and you're back to the old, problematic fire rates. And given we're in a horde shooter where most things die from a bullet or two, not to mention status effect mechanics, we're pretty strongly incentivized to go for fire rate.
I don't think a better "hand cannon vs bullet hose" distinction is necessarily bad. It's just that, so far, it hasn't been super effective for the problems the thread—indeed, the semi-auto change in general—looks to address. And I'm not sure upping the dial would change that.
Plus, as far as a "hand cannon vs bullet hose" divide goes, throwing weapons toss a wrench into the categorical works. Many of those run into the 3-4 rounds per second territory, well into DE's "5RPS maximum" the semi-auto changes aimed for. So they'd probably lean towards the "hand cannon" end. However, they use auto triggers. So we end up with a question: if those are "hand cannons", must they drop the auto trigger? And if the trigger type is fine, why couldn't other "hand cannon" weapons follow suit, even if just as an accessibility option?
-
I don't think he needs major changes, just some modernization. Invulnerable or scaling 1, making sure 3 on allies doesn't disrupt them, making sure 3 on Decoy doesn't leave the player getting downed without the augment.
My personal wish-list is for 3 and 4 to have innate Radiation procs and armour / shield / general defense strip. Lean on the same trickster / friendly-fire theme, but boosted to the point it can net kills by itself. Irradiating Disarm could be replaced by something like Scavenging Disarm, where Loki gets a 100% ammo efficiency boost and increased fire rate for a duration proportional to the number of enemies disarmed. As if running around and using the enemy's dropped weapons.
No complaints from me if they took a page from Conclave Loki and let the decoy start capping fools, though. Might not fit his theme quite so well but, hey, the precedent is there, and it'd synergize with defense strips too.
-
1
-
-
5 hours ago, Sevek7 said:
Never understood why people do this to themselves. "Here's a fun video game, you know what would make it better? If I made it into a chore"
I ponder if it's along the same lines as gambling addiction. What's the goal in Warframe? Get the thing. How do you get the thing? 90% of the time, you perform a routine, repetitive task for a chance at getting the desired reward. It may not be gambling in either a legal or traditional sense, but from a psychological PoV? There's some parallels...
-
4
-
-
3 minutes ago, iPathos said:
Oh I'd be entirely onboard with an idea like that as well. The biggest issue I have with Deimos's token system is the limits on actual standing gain, so stocking up on tokens usually ends up with a significant backlog in a very short time.
We could also make up for this by chucking UniMeds in end-of-match drop tables. One might backlog regular Conclave medallions, but there's plenty of syndicates and standing caps to use UniMeds on. I find a certain poeticness that the mode once excluded from UniMeds becomes the best place to get them.
Though that could make it a little too quick to get rep in Conclave... IDK just a thought
-
1
-
-
17 minutes ago, iPathos said:
Considering how new the system was when the ability to use Universal Medallions for Conclave was removed, I'd say it deserves reassessment. I don't particularly like the idea of people using them to exclusively rank up Conclave, but I believe that issue is self-mitigating in the drop rate for these Medallions.
This is a little off-topic, but an idea: what if Conclave tokens? Matches reward one per match and, atop redeeming tokens for standing, a certain number is required for each rank up. Besides the typical benefits—better standing gain and a solid reason to keep playing past the daily standing cap—it makes it so you could have Universal Medallions and still need at least some Conclave play for rank-ups.
-
2
-
-
7 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:
The issue remains on having a PvE side that's too easy (players aren't used to defeat) and trivializes key concepts for combat, hyperinflating expectations of (bad) players about themselves and leading them to (imminent) disappointment and frustration, (as you mention) after being given a reality check even by slightly better players.
While you're not wrong, I think the root is simpler: not doing enough to break expectations when they should be. Sure, one fix for that is to create an expectation of higher difficulty in PvE and let that carry over instead. But things like Dog Days and Veilbreaker, arguably Eidolons too, show you can have wildly different experiences with different levels of difficulty. And it's not always via mechanics: aesthetics play in a lot.
Take out modding. We can agree on that. Personally I think it makes more of a headache than it's worth, especially with holster mods turning the likes of Grakata into lasers. Set up a new arsenal screen in the Conclave console. Same function, new location, new look. That alone is a big change. Change up names and looks from PvE counterparts. Nothing major: just a different HUD can go a long way, and "different" Warframes and weapons—some prefixes, maybe Conclave skins by default, or other Void-like texture overlays?—would carry different performance expectations. And we may as well have every Conclave weapon unlocked for players if modding is gone, so that'll push the different feel further. No more PvE farming to get weapons and all that.
We could go extreme and have Conclave-specific Warframes and weapons that are completely different from PvE and tailor-made for PvP, rather than just reskins with tweaked names. But I also don't think it necessary to go that far.
That's not a panacea, granted. Some will insist on expecting the same easy gameplay from most PvE. But there's always going to be somebody who just doesn't get it no matter what you do. The goal is minimization, not elimination.
-
2
-
-
3 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:
I think the biggest flaw of conclave is being the only part of the game where game knowledge, mechanical skill and strategy must be used in tandem to win on top of being the only part in the whole game where losing is an actual possibility.
Personally, I think the biggest flaw is that it tries too much to look like PvE.
Like, you hop into a Dog Days event and a lot is different. You still have your parkour, but your health is different, you don't have abilities, you don't have your usual arsenal, everything's wetter for some reason, and there's this lady talking in my ear and she is on something. It might not be particularly harder compared to regular PvE, but it's different enough to break expectations and preconceptions.
Meanwhile, Conclave seems like does it's darnedest to look and feel as close to PvE as possible. You have modding (which is heavily nerfed), abilities (also heavily nerfed), arenas that might look shockingly familiar to anyone playing Index, and many of the same arsenal goodies you've ever had. It's great...if you want to maintain the expectations players carry from PvE. Fine if they're actually that similar, but when they're not, you're just welcoming disappointment and frustration.
As much as we might like to blame players, at the end of the day, they're the audience. You don't win Pulitzers by blaming an audience for not liking a book; you win Pulitzers by understanding and writing for that audience. (Insofar as one can without abandoning one's core vision, of course. There's always give and take.)
-
1
-
-
42 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:
One could argue that capping them in conclave wouldn't be needed due to the syndicate standing cap serving the same purpose since the main reason why these were capped in SPH is the player ability to stockpile endless amounts of Steel Essence and use it all at once in extreme cases (at least for conclave would need to bank after reaching syndicate cap in order to farm some more).
TBH, I think we could do both: stockpiles in Teshin's shop the player can choose (limited by standing gain) and an end-of-match reward dump that's always available but more random. Cause the current system has a few downsides:
One, that all the rewards are capped by standing means players can run out of reasons to play Conclave—pretty quickly, in some cases. And PvP, more than PvE, really needs players. Can't solo PvP, after all.
Two, the way things work now is great if you're good at the mode. We don't need to give those low-rung players the keys to a Lexus, but you want to give them something pretty good to keep them around despite getting smashed. As above: PvP really needs players. Especially the low-skilled ones, so those new to the mode have a smoother entry.
Having end-of-round evergreen rewards gives players of all sorts of skill levels a solid reason to keep playing. And it does so without treading new ground—see Kuva Survival and how you can still go ham on that forever and ever. Selectable stockpiles in the Conclave shop is just icing on that cake.
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:
I'd advocate for Conclave to get more enticing rewards to encourage players to play it. Back when the rework was announced, some people were very liud and up in arms demanding that "If pvp gets to offer rewards these should only be cosmetics"; DE bent over backwards and went along with it, turned out cosmetic rewards aren't enticing enough and people still ask for alternative ways to get them despite having no impact on the gameplay.
I don't think it'd be too controversial to at least add evergreen rewards (kuva, relics, relic openings, aya, void traces, endo even, etc.) and healthy resource gain randomized through the Starchart. We got the seldom-updated, end-of-match drop table to play with. Good potential to flood players with goodies and entice them to play, or at least make it less regrettable (i.e. less "I could've gotten all this Kuva / relics / endo / etc. instead").
I know I'd play a lot more if I could get relics and kuva and the like dumped on my face each game. And if I could bust relics each game, too? Sign me up. Fissures? What are those?
1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:Recovering up to 150 HP on kill is definitely a huge bonus that justifies lowering the effectiveness of HP orbs. Of course, you won't get much mileage from it if you can't kill other players, but that issue isn't something DE can fix.
You may also be unable to find the reasons of the change from "heal on hit" to "heal on kill" simply because the mod has never been changed; it's been "heal on kill" since its introduction.
I think they're talking about how the mods currently only list the -25% effectiveness from Health Orbs. So far as I can figure, it still functions, they just have a bugged description.
-
1
-
-
I would personally push for trading over Universal Medallions, so that time spent in the mode is better conserved. Somebody has to spend the time to get those items, after all. And it's a little more important for Conclave to keep a playerbase, since you can't run Conclave solo, at all. You need other players for it to function. So anything that can at least try to maintain the playerbase, while also giving players who dislike PvP a "way out", is the best solution IMO.
(For that reason, I'd also suggest uncapping standing gain. You want people in the games, but if people are standing capped, they likely move on. It's only daily, but it still makes the playerbase fluctuate and diminish more than it needs to.)
-
8
-
-
22 hours ago, quxier said:
*DE at the same time*:
Let's make players go through relays, load every player's info/appearance, vendors, vendoers' infos, Shamisen song and other unneccessary stuffs so Player can access e.g. Simulacrum.While neither I nor my PC like the amount of loading for relays, for sure, I believe most of that is done with peer connections. E.g. clients carrying occasionally-checked cached instances of their visible items that are then shared with other players. Each client might check with the server to ensure their own stuff is kosher, once in a while, but a client wouldn't talk with the server to load up someone else's goodies. They'd just talk with the other client to pass that along. And things like vendors could be pretty easily cached on the server, since it changes so seldom, assuming they don't do something like distribute hosting and make the clients in a relay the caches.
-
33 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:
That all being said... Magus Lockdown is a great Arcane and tool for Disruption. Since its an Arcane, you can go with whatever Warframe you want, including comfort picks. Magus Lockdown does work on Demos, it will CC them in place for a decent while, and give you good opportunity to kill them. Focus school can help a little here too. Unairu for Armour Strip, Madurai for Void Strike, I am not certain, but I believe Zenuriks slow will work? Paired with Magus Lockdown, these pair well, since you have to switch to Spoiler, use Lockdown, and then can apply a buff or debuff (depending on the school). You still have a choice of Warframe at your discretion.
Speaking of... Khora's Ensnare will work... and you can Helminth it. Some Warframe abilities work, some don't, I forget all of them, but yeah. Worth looking up the wikia page. Personally, I really like Mesa, Ash, and Xaku. Mesa is more of a sentimental pick, since her Peacemakers will be great against low level Disruption, so thats how I learned the game mode. Less effective in Archon Disruption and Steel Path Disruption, but at that stage, I was mostly using her for her other abilities and CC, and getting Keys from ads. Ash is great, because you can stealth and ignore everything and focus down the Demo, use your 1 with augment to armour strip, use your 4 if you wish. Xaku is great because you can use Gaze in key locations, plus all your stole guns are great. Oh I think Gloom works? I don't actually like Gloom, so I don't know for certain. I believe Khora and Nova are good too, but I have no experience with them in this mode.
Personally most of the damage I do against Demos is from weapons. I like a Condition Overload Heavy Stropha build. I use Cedo or Epitaph as a Primer. This isn't to say you should do this too, because there are a lot of options here, and you might not like these weapons, but you do have to put some thought into build.
Just to add one small tidbit: don't underestimate Cold procs, too. On my run, I had brought a Felarx modded with Cold and Loki (because I forgot to switch to Ash + Madurai). Not well-built for DPS. I managed to slow the Demolyst to the point that it couldn't get out of the tile I found it in before the team caught up and blew it up. That was without the likes of Gloom or Lockdown. Nevermind mixing those with Switch Teleport to keep the Demolyst in place until the timer runs out.
-
4
-
rampant cheating in conclave
in Conclave
Posted
This is why I've pushed for things like kill cams and easy access to weapons for mirroring (checking if a weapon behaves how it's supposed to e.g. Mios). Taking a gander at OP's video showcasing the cheating-in-progress, I've run into players I'm pretty sure aren't cheating, but who can hit me at that same rate with that same Braton. I'm experienced enough to recognize names, at least, so I can give them the benefit of the doubt in those cases. A new player doesn't have that. But one look at a kill cam, like that video, and you don't need to be a Conclave wizard to see something's awful sus—or looks natural.