bobafetthotmail
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Posts posted by bobafetthotmail
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+1, well put.
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ummm.... there is no lore to back more or less all you are babbling about.
The OP's point still stands, There are TOO DAMN FEW reasons to not support Grineer, and Corpus nodes are decreasing dramatically.
I doubt that the goal was having Corpus become another Infested as "invasion-only" race.
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Oxium we dont actually know how prolific it actually is. Given the corpus can mine the very gasses of Juipter. The component materials for Oxium could very well be quite prolific in those gasses.
Because none sent probes to analyze what gases there are in Jupiter some decade ago, and none can do spectral analysis with telescopes.
Also keep in mind, we are limited to substances only found on earth/near space. Who knows what kinds of materials that could potentially exist on other planets that dont conform to the statement "... as we know it."
What? We stopped using stuff we find as-is some millenia ago when someone started making the first crappy bronze. The element table does not have holes, we know the properties of all elements in it and what elements are best suited for whatever.
Chemistry and materials science are where new stuff happens, we are well past the level of complexity that can be found naturally around.
That clichè existed only in fiction.
For biochemistry though (drugs and stuff) it's another matter, but we are talking of material science here.
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As I said - full vacuum smelting process with magnetic fields so Oxium will actually become a solid thing without hollow parts inside after it cools down.
Thats some hardcore crafting skills.
Vacuum is kinda common and cheap in space.
And if you want something to contain vacuum, you want it to have hollow points in it.
There is no way in hell that it will be able to hold the atmospheric pressure out of its vacuum pockets anyway, nor a way to control buoyancy, but hey, magic.
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Considering that this is thousands of years in the future, though, having a solid that's less dense than air really isn't that implausible.
Future isn't an out-of-jail card.
To be less dense than air it has to weight less than the same volume of air.
Chemical bonds and sub-atomic forces can't happen at the distance air molecules are at and all atoms that are lighter than air (helium and Hydrogen) can only form one bond or none at all, so there is no way it can hold itself together at all.
Yes, it's space magic, don't deny it.
The only thing I'm wondering is why this stuff does not fly up when it drops from drones. That's what "being lighter than air" does after all.
But if you put something lighter in water, say a piece of wood, it will float. The weight of the volume it takes up is less than the weight of the water that volume has displaced. The water succeeds in pushing it up.
Correct. Issue here is that water density is MUCH higher than air.
we are talking of something like three orders of magnitude of difference.
Water is at around 1000 kg per cubic meter (small differences for temperature)
Air is around 1.2 kg per cubic meter. (small differences for temperature)
There is a limit on how low-density something can be made with solid matter.
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Flux rifle, and Spectra are only similar to low-energy infrared medical laser, and not an industrial cutting laser.
What? All laser tools are pulsed lasers. The difference is kind of light used and pulse energy/timing.
If it was original a laser deigned to cut alloy metals or steel it would flash vaporize flesh on contact or cause minor irritation.
Not exactly. Unless the pulsed laser is tuned to drill a specific class of materials, its penetration will suck. So yeah, industrial cutters can harm flesh, but won't penetrate enough to reach vital organs.
Of course if you keep shooting you will still kill the target because of massive damage, but you won't have a one-shot stopping power that most rifles have.
Now the game has no "one-shot stopping power" mechanic, so that is not so apparent.
Flux rifle would have to be a laser designed to decompose flesh rather than outright burn it or vaporize it. Flux and spectra do zero heat damage, and the only way for that to make any sense at all as a laser would be if they didn't cut via heat generation on the target's surface.
That's how pulsed lasers work. They dump so much heat in a spot on the target that the surface receiving it cannot transfer it to the rest of the surrounding matter of the target fast enough, its temp reaches too high levels and it vapourizes. The heat received by the laser is mostly converted in kinetic energy of the vapourized stuff so again the rest of the target isn't heated up.
It's not conventional heat damage. The effect on the target is more akin to a mechanical drill head abrading layer after layer. You can cut stuff with a mechanical drill? Yes.
I have no idea about how "decomposing flesh" would work.
Without a doubt, Synapse is an Ionized particle accelerator, it couldn't be any form of Tesla-Coil because it would arc back, and deep fry the wielder. An Ionized particle beam self focus in air, and deliver most of the radiation forward within the beam(still would be idiotic for a real life infantry weapon for humans).
Synapse is much closer to electrolasers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolaser
That is, a low-power laser beam ionizes air and creates a path, then the weapon discharges electricity through it like a lightning.
Would also explain why its range is around that of Flux (laser ionizes path). And why it is dealing electrical damage instead of radiation damage.
The beam would contain ionizing radiation, and it shatters molecular bonds causing immense amount of thermal energy within the targets structure, not to mention a lethal does of radiation. Armor is meaningless, and the only thing that stops that is sufficient mass.Why punching holes when with much less energy anything living or electronic is killed by ionizing radiation at the same depths?
The only designs that were remotely feasible in the Strategic Defence Initiative (also called Star Wars program) were like that.
so basically this thread = players want energy weapons to more accurately represent their damage in game in relation to their known attributes in the real world
aka plausible and believable weaponry even if it is far beyond our current technology
Maybe the OP. I only ask for consistency.
Technology has nothing to do with what is plausible. Stuff in the future cannot go against what has been proven right/wrong beyond any doubt now. Plasma is a poor weapon on any density and any temp. This won't change.
Guys, you still miss the point... this is a game...
An Impact damage pistol doesn't shoot hammers
A Slash damage rifle doesn't shoot blades (except for the mitter)
A Puncture damage shotgun doesn't shoot thorns
either way most of warframe weapons have all the 3 damages types, but they still don't shoot Sharp Hammers with Thorns...
so, just stop arguing using logics and science laws on something that doesn't clearly follows those kind of rules, the rules of warframe are different, we have values and we have mods ...and that's it, a game
Impact Slash and Puncture were supposed to be a rough approximation of some real-life effects for a game.
In the patch notes they even explained them as "normal bullet/expanding bullet/armor piercing bullet" respectively or somesuch. (for non-melee)
I agree that it's not supposed to be 100% real, but it does take inspiration from real life for what stuff does.
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The continues weapons depicted in Warframe would be particle beam or particle accelerators.
Lore wise I dunno. But from what it does, that's much closer to a real laser than to real life (designs of) particle cannons.
Realistic particle cannons are MUCH more practical as invisible radiation guns. You shoot and the target drops dead killed by acute radiation poisoning or electronic systems failure, total silence, no burns, no wounds. Personal armor and maybe even vehicle armor can't stop that.
There the issue of backscatter though (atmosphere bounces the particles back at the shooter, again acute radiation poisoning and death). They are vehicle-only weapons.
They are limited range weapon that transfer energy by kinetic energy to disrupt the targets molecular structure by bombarding it with charged particles.
To have a particle cannon that is able to transfer enough kinetic energy as the average bullet you need to use ridicolous amounts of power.
All practical designs were just generating strong particle radiation, that has total bullcrap kinetic energy, but only needs to screw up biochemical reactions or overload circuitry to kill.
Yes, lasers striking flesh SHOULD cause the person to explode,
I said steam micro-explosions that tear apart flesh to create a wound. If you can dump so much energy to blow up people outright, then whatever you are shooting on sustains critical damage anyway. As a clump of its own surface explodes like a grenade, shocks will shake it or tear it apart, and spallation from the armor becomes a major issue.
Also, thanks for pointing out how cutting lasers work, but the Flux Rifle doesn't work like a cutting laser. It deals impact damage and puncture damage in equal and minimal amounts, and lots of slash damage. It's anti-flesh, and doesn't do well against armour, hence why I think it's continuous rather than pulsed. If it's continuous, then I think it WOULD melt. So yes, thank you for explaining how cutting lasers work IRL, but clearly DE doesn't agree with you either.
The pulses (energy and number per second) have to be tuned depending on the material, or the vapourize-layer-after-layer will be way less effective.
Flux seems to be relatively close to a laser drill tuned for flesh (one tuned for metal would not be particularly effective on flesh). And in case you didn't notice, laser drills use a "continuous" beam. That is, you can't tell a pulse from another and you see a beam.
Heat beam lasers are a joke to protect against even now. Because ablative armor would give anything thus protected dozens of minutes before failing. Assuming that the heat beam isn't using a nuclear reactor as power source anyway.
I'm actually thinking of Warhammer 40k's lasers, to be honest. Those lasers have sufficient heat and size to cause such rapid expansion of moisture that flesh explodes, and the only way to survive is with ablative armour, which at most would give the wearer second degree burns. Then it's just a matter of wearing through the layers of armour until you reach the clothes or flesh, at which point the target explodes.
Wat? At such power levels ablative (or any kind of) personal armor is pointless. At first contact the laser would simply vapourize enough material to give the wearer a lethal kinetic punch as the armor plate recoils or outright explodes under the pressure of the vapourized gas. (unless we are talking of Space Marines or vehicle armor).
It's the equivalent of getting hit by an artillery shell (or Ogris shot) in the face. The damage type is irrelevant, it's insta-overkill.
Pulsed lasers can have similar if not better performance (as long as you don't want to blow people up) with MUCH less energy. Modern li-ion batteries would be enough. The main issue atm is cooling the damn laser down. Don't even want to know how they make it work in 40k without magic.
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Call me crazy, but what if the physical type bonus wasn't limited to the damage?
ok, so that's not incredibly clear. Here's an example: What if No Return gave the same damage bonus to piercing damage as it does now, and also increased proc. chance for that SPECIFIC damage type? Heck, maybe even go further and increase the effectiveness of the proc. in general.
ok, so three modifiers on one mod may be a little too much. Just tossing random ideas though.
I like. anything that boosts the proc chances is good by definition.
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Congrats to thread starter. Sensible points, reasoning and math.
Detron is not OP, DE don't nerf plz.
Besides it is a laser shotgun.Laser cant have drop off since it is light .
No to both.
Travel time = not a laser.
Light does indeed drop off with distance pretty damn sharply.
Lasers use focusing optics to sidestep that but still drop off to "cat amusement devices" once the shot is outside the range at which the optic system can focus the light in a tight enough spot.
Laser energy is pretty easilly absorbed by the medium it travels through, it only has theoretical 100% energy transfer point to point in a vacuum.
Ummm... I always thought air was transparent to light and low density enough. Energy dissipation due to air and normal dust in it isn't a major concern.
Now, if you start throwing up smoke or fog or whatever.... then it's a major issue.
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Also, as I said before, LASERS DO NOT CUT, THEY MELT.
Incorrect. Lasers heat up stuff, at a rate depending on their output. They can melt stuff, BUT... if you dump a ton of heat faster than the target material can heat itself up, you are flash-vapourizing the outer layer of said material.
(that's also how ablative shielding works, the shield material is an insulator so the outer layer heats up A LOT and vapourizes, leaving the layers below it relatively cold)
With a pulsed laser beam you flash-vapourize a layer per pulse (each pulse is very very short, each "shot" is lots and lots of pulses), and that's how they make laser drills (all industrial laser cutters are laser drills), that are also the only practical laser weapon on mildly armored targets anyway.
If you do that on an organic being... you know... biology class... we have lots of water in our bodies. Flash-vapourizing flesh means that the water in it turns into steam. Steam micro-explosions in flesh will tear it apart, not burn it.
Flux rifle is remarkably close to what a weaponized laser in real-life will be (yes, lasers in real life do have BIG range issues). Also slash damage.
All the Corpus weapons with travel time seem to be the archetypical SF plasma gun, which makes no sense in real life anyway.
If you want a good reading about what a weaponized laser should be able to do as tech gets there... head for the good old Atomic Rockets website. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/sidearmenergy.php
plasma is the 4th state of matter, on earth in industrial we use "cold" plasma it burns at 7,000 - 16,000 degrees celsius and moves at 6000 meters per second - to say its hot and would burn is a understatement
Temperature is not the whole picture. What hurts is thermal energy, where mass AND temperature are factors. Also how fast you can transfer that to the target makes a HUGE difference.
Plasma is still a gas by definition. Low low density, usually even lower than the average gas because it is so much hotter. Low density means crappy thermal energy per shot, and crappy heat transfer speed on the target.
All industrial tools using plasma generate a continuous stream of it and need to stay on the spot for a relatively long time. THey can't be realistically weaponized because of the plasma's own limitations.
Case in point, higher layers of Earth atmosphere you can find in low-ish Eath orbit have ridiculous temperatures, well over 50'000 kelvins, but they are so low density that even astronauts with the crappy space suits from the Gemini program had nothing to fear from that. And satellites don't need insulation to protect from that either.
Another case in point. Hot air in an oven. you can keep your hand in the oven where the air is at well above water boiling point and you won't be harmed. Because air is NOT particularly dense. If you touch the oven wall, you WILL get hurt.
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I'd join Infested ranks within seconds if that was available. Cute and cuddly.
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First: plasma is basically glowing steam and thus all "plasma guns" are and will ever be fictional. In short: you need mass to carry either kinetic or thermal energy. The average bullet can carry more energy than any amount of hot air you can think of shooting just because it's various orders of magnitude more dense.
Lanka seems to use the same technology of Dera/Supra/whatever of Corpus, which is shooting blobs of glowing stuff that have travel time.
I don't understand why they made it electric, and the description is CLEARLY wrong because it's not anywhere near what a railgun should be, but other than that, it's kinda OK.
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or grind lower level missions until you get better mods/credits/gear.
Apolloduros is a good place for that.
There is also the in-game chat where you can ask for help, it's a button on the right side of the screen to open it.
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"at the ranges they are effective" is sort of the point here. If you push the ranges out into what is currently fairly solid Rifle territory you're going to end up making some rifles obsolete, or, I suppose the rifles could make the shotguns obsolete if you dropped shotgun damage enough along with the range increase.
The main issue here is that the game's average combat ranges are well into solid shotgun territory as well, the "solid rifle territory" is only in SOME boss arenas, SOME tiles of Phobos and Corpus Gas City and the forest tileset they showcased at Cicero event. "solid sniper rifle territory" is nowhere to be seen.
While keeping shotguns as "melee" like most other games do is not doable because we have already a melee system (or will in the future anyway).
Besides, this is more a fundamental issue, if you use too little stats to differentiate weapons it gets very hard to make more than 3-4 really different weapons, most will be very similar but with a few more/less numbers here and there. There are quite a few rifles that are obsoleted by other rifles (Soma and Braton Prime tower over anything else in rifle category), and if we had not Damage 2.0 all rifles would be nearly all the same and only the DPS would differentiate them.
I said it in another thread about this, shotguns used in real life are much more tools than weapons, there are tons of weird loads for them to turn a shottie in a door breaching tool (rifles would simply punch a hole in the lock and kill anything standing behind the lock, those loads blow off the whole lock and stop), mini-grenade launcher, tazer rounds, rope-throwing loads and whatever else.
Rifles focus on damage and significantly longer ranges.
So the main difference between them in-game where we don't get to shoot on anything beyond 100 meters and we need less stuff competing with melee, should be mainly trick shots.
Shotguns get higher chance to do trick shots (higher proc chance), get dedicated trick mods (like the Thunderbolt for bows) and whatever.
Of course if they make more tiles where weapon ranges are longer, weapon range can be used again to differentiate shotties and rifles. Falloff and spread are artifical limitations at the ranges they put them.
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To do that test I had to nuke any and all graphics options to minimum or disabled.
Otherwise each time I shot the white balls to spawn the next wall I got SEVERE lag that screwed up movement responsiveness. Used Ignis because easier to aim but the thing happened with any weapon I tried.
After I did that, it looked crappy but was at least fluid and managed to reach the end eventually.
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Gorgon is usable, not bad but not one of the best weapons either. In Damage 2.0 you can get away with more or less anything if you load the right elementals for the faction/mobs you care of most. As long as you don't try to do T3 or hardcore survival/defences you can shred Grineer and Infested too.
It's horribly inaccurate even on first shot, but gives the right machinegun-like feel. (people cry at this detail)
So, mods that increase fire rate to make its spin up time faster, usual damage mods and elementals for the faction you are fighting, mods that give it punch through are a must-have (Shred is perfect). Also the corrupted damage mod is good on it (as it is horribly inaccurate in any case, so the mod's accuracy nerf is irrelevant)
As for the rest it's basically a long-range Ignis, shooting into crowds and corridors does wonders (especially with punch through), but you will need a sidearm with good long-range accuracy and possibly some ammo replenish gears.
So yeah, it does need to be handled in a different way than your usual rifle, you will be using the secondary weapon more often than you do with Soma or Ogris or Synapse or whatever.
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You're right ... that's one possible way to solo them. Or, we could go with LFG. I kinda like the latter.
I already said I agree. All non-map mission matchmaking is a total pain, and in a co-op game it would be a welcome addition.
Because spamming 3 and shooting Ogris for 30 minutes isn't exactly fun, while still practical.
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A rocket uses rockets, not rifle ammo.
I know, the closest equivalent to "specialist" ammo is the Sniper ammo, as bows, the Miter, and sniper rifles of very different kinds use it.
Btw, agree on drakgoon being moved to the same Sniper ammo pool.
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At a guess shotguns will remain somewhat stronger in some situations but Melee will have other advantages like incapacitating the enemy more effectively, higher survivability, and not requiring ammo like shotguns do.
Unless stunlocks get severely nerfed or can be avoided by parry or whatever, shotguns will be significantly better just because allow you to stay out of that range.
If you pushed out their range and nerfed their damage you'd have rifles in all but name. Not gonna happen that would just be making everything bland again and DE have shown that they don't want that.
Shotguns have more pellets = x4 or more to proc chances per shot. That's already a big difference.
But anyway, shotguns at the ranges they are effective at do share similarities with rifles.
Unless you are shooting birdshot anyway.
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well, guys.
the point of this ammo type changing wars is missed in action
regardless of ammo type launchers wont run out of ammo - almost everyone in this thread agreed with that
yes they could use sniper ammo and we could change it to be so, BUT
every touch to the code have a probability to cause tons of bugs
so lets leave it like that and wont do stuff that wont change anything but may cause tons of problems?
Nonsense. Weapon stats are in a table, what kind of ammo a weapon uses is controlled by a ID number. If they don't know how to write numbers in a table without causing bugs they have bigger issues.
people complain about the ammocapasity of penta and ogris, so what does DE do? nerf the ammocapasity....of the drakgoon....wat
-Maine
Drakgoon is a shotgun, using shotgun mods. It was supposed to use shotgun ammo and ammo capacity too.
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Yeah, Lato and mk-1 braton were definetely OP as well as Hind was, and THAT'S why DE should nerf them.
And your point is?
None asked for a Lato nerf, yet they did it.
That's not balancing, that's just nerfing stuff for the hell of it.
I'm just saying that "balancing" is when stat changes make a weapon more fun without making every other weapon obsolete.
A "nerf" is just a stat change that decreases a weapon's usefullness.
You should not use them interchangeably.
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I stopped largely because when one flamer would stop another would step in. Just stop look at the time span, I respond just to have people call me; stupid, or say I don't know what I'm talking about as a blanket statement, a joke, or suggest I don't know math, that I say dumb things, swear at me, ask me if I'm real; I'm sure this list gos on. This is not a debate, this is mudslinging and verbal blood sport, and in breach of the site rules of respect.
Everyone here is being pretty polite for an internet discussion. Don't expect to post stuff and see everyone applauding at you whatever you do.
You state things that make little sense to quite a few people (me included) and deliberately ignore arguments against your ideas, maybe it's language barrier issues (not a native speaker?).
You pull up that statement about inflation helping poor getting their share, which is flat out wrong due to the simple definition of "inflation" you find in dictionaries. It's nothing you need to prove, you either clarify what you wanted to say or it's wrong.
You use "sales rate" to talk about the difference in discount price of items between two games. But "sales rate" is "how much stuff is sold per X time". That's a definition you find in dictionaries. Again as above.
Your math is correct, but the logic behind it is very flawed because you did not compare items that have the same intrinsic value between two different games.
Here the issue is that Dual Skanas and a bunch of other stuff isn't worth the equivalent $$ to their plat price not that 75% discount on the highest priced item in two games results in more or less the same price over two wildly different items.
What you should compare within the two games to understand how much WF prices are off, is how useful is a specific item in that game, and what price that item has in the market, converted already in $$. Of course comparing between items with similar usefulness.
Blatantfool is simply saying that discussions work like this (I suspect that post has a typo btw). If you can't stand the heat of being proven wrong or can't use the language well enough to say what you are actually thinking, don't begin one.
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Animators are animators because their primary talent lies in animating things. They have gone to animation schools/colleges, they have worked on nothing but animation on this and many, many other projects and most of them for a very, very long time.
This is a red herring. The point is resource allocation, not that animators can only animate.
I dislike to say this because they are people with a life and all, while I'm treating them as disposable "human resources" for the sake of keeping this simple, but the point is:
Either move some of the guys involved in making weapons and less critical stuff to other non-WF projects or lay them off and use the resources towards paying coders or writers or whatever the game needs to fix more fundamental issues than delivering a bunch of random new weapons every few weeks.
If someone used the cash DE put in making new weapons and other 3D stuff towards making decent wallrunning or fix netcode issues, move the lobby-creation out from the damn chat with console commands, or in re-evaluating the prices of most stuff in the market because they are just silly for too much items, or making events that aren't just do the same dumb thing 100 times over (either exterminate missions or NatGeo flower scanning), the game would be infinitely better.
That's the point that most people try to get across, even if using wrong words due to (very understandable) ignorance of how the industry works.
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DHKany, on 14 Jan 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:
I don't even know what to make of this post.
I am for nerfing the penta and ogris, and I was saying that realism is a S#&$ty argument to hide behind to keep them at their current loliwin status.
Also, TF2 rocket launchers don't deal 16k damage in an 8 meter radius killing every enemy up to around level 100 in 1 rocket.
It's a PvP game so it has to be balanced differently.
Realism should NOT be a factor for determining any gun stat tweaks EVER.
THAT DOES NOT MEAN IM SAYING TO KEEP THE PENTA AND OGRIS AT THEIR CURRENT 540 AMMO POOL.
I'm saying that one should apply logic and in game context to BALANCE GUNS.
Also, we're still playing a space ninja game, where a fat guy stomps his foot and stops time. Do you seriously want to argue with realism applying to warframe any further?
It's generally better to turn the argument against the poster. In the case of the guy you were responding to, you should have just said that applying realism the ammo pool should be reduced because rocket launchers don't usually carry 500+ rockets in dimensional pockets, so using realism as a nerf shield is not gonna work, and applying double standards makes you look desperate.
In any case, the game has some elements that are indeed (relatively) realistic, like guns or the acrobatics (mainly for inertia issues like zorencoptering or similar bs when wallrunning). You can't say that because there is space magic then everything is bunk.
The weapons we use in-game have a name based on a relatively realistic transposition of what a weapon of the same kind is in real life. If we were using Wizard Sticks and throwing spells then it's ok to not apply realism, but when you ahve a weapon that tries to depict what a rocket launcher is in real life (within game limitations and still trying to be fun), then the more realism you can apply to it without making it less fun, the better.
Dear De... Please Make It Stop
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by bobafetthotmail
Sounds like suicide actually. Without individual minds there is not "us" or "our", there is only "the swarm".