Ceadeus
-
Posts
378 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Ceadeus
-
-
3 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:
I had accepted that what I want Inaros to be most likely doesn't work well with modern Warframe
To be fair, most stuff doesn't work with modern Warframe anymore, including the idea of a "tank" frame. It's all just really not necessary when the game keeps shifting more and more towards "grind out endless hordes of mobs for abysmal droprates" and/or "chew through this one enemy that has higher EHP than the entirety of all the health and defenses of every enemy in entire missions combined".
-
7 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:
No matter how many times you claim nuking is the best way to clear any mission type, I still more than once a week find players about to ragequit asking for help right as they're about to log off because they can't stand it, that either can't figure out interception at low levels or have gotten so used to that mentality that you appear to be stuck in, that either by flooding the map themselves or having the misfortune of ending up in squad with someone who does... And when I explain to them how interception works they are reluctant, as most people believe as you do that the point of the game is just kill everything as fast as you can because that's what they've been shown to do instead of playing how the game itself tells you to, and when I say just hold the 15 enemies at the start and let them live while you take all the points they don't understand how that will work against the 20, 30, 50 enemies at each of the other points so I have to explain to them that because you're not killing the first group of enemies that whole ass army they're afraid of never shows up. So I show them. And every time they're shocked and amazed to see it in action, I've even been asked if I'm hacking because how did I make it so effortless and why were there suddenly no enemies when before they were drowning in mobs? Well, the reason is simple: it's because people like you flooding the map and getting those lower level players swarmed by mobs that may be easy for YOU to handle, aren't necessarily easy for THEM to handle. What IS easy, however, is letting that small handful of enemies live but keeping them unable to do anything useful while you capture and dominate the map. And for the sake of feeling justified in your, frankly awful, play style you are causing them to have a horrible experience. And any play style that actively makes the game worse for the rest of the squad, especially by creating a detrimental experience for newer players, is NOT(!!!) better, objectively or anything. I understand you want to feel like your way is the best way, but it's really not in all cases. You literally are just arguing that making the game worse for others is somehow better than helping your squad succeed.
No, you're just misleading them. I'm assuming we're just using your 15 as a general number for discussion's sake and you're not actually claiming that as the enemy cap, so going with that, if there are 15 enemies and you claim you can hold all of them and no more will spawn, there will ALWAYS be 15 enemies in that round no matter how many you kill. The amount of enemies you fight at any given time will never increase until the next round comes and it will increase regardless of whether you kill the enemies or not. There will never be a case where you kill 15 at a certain spot and then 20, 30, or 50 spawn elsewhere, it will always total up to 15 present on the map at all times for that round. Ironically, nuking is even more of a necessity for newer players as they need the affinity and resources more than anybody, and the issue that you're describing of enemies popping up elsewhere and being unable to quickly respond and deal with them is literally being ineffective at nuking, not a detriment caused by nuking. You are literally saying that the enemies are surviving the nuke and you're failing to cover the points quickly enough, which they shouldn't be if you're playing the playstyle correctly, so to that end, I could just as easily say your CC playstyle can be even more detrimental if you take a crappy CC build that doesn't hold the enemies well enough and they overrun you anyway while you burn all your energy and you have no way to deal with them and die. See how it's not really relevant to just assume a bad build in a discussion about the merit of playstyles as a whole?
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And I'm making this point, again, as an ash main. Stealth, mobility, armor strip, nuking ... He's got it. What ash LACKS is crowd control. And that's why ash ISNT my preferred frame for interception where crowd control is the SUPERIOR way to clear the mission.
Ash isn't a good nuker though because he relies on direct LoS to every target you want to hit before you can hit them. You're literally just proving my point that you're playing bad nukers and blaming the playstyle.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Also, if I can deal over 30mil in one attack with a finisher that lasts less than a second, bypasses enemy defenses, and sets the base damage for a forced slash proc, and you can't see how that's effective at level cap... I really can't help you. I don't believe you have a frame that can hit harder than that because I don't have a frame that can hit harder than that, and I've got them all.
Lots of frames can do that through lots of different ability combos. People have gotten frames to do a lot higher damage than that. Hydroid can without the need for a finisher. Using the exact combo I described you can easily hit 30mil + slash procs.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:So to be clear, while I CAN hit harder than you, I also can recognize that that's often NOT the best or easiest way to clear a mission, and I don't throw waves of mobs at other players just assuming they can handle it, when I see very often people getting frustrated by the play style you're advocating simply because nobody let them know there's better options.
Well no, the idea is that if you're the nuker, you should be effectively dealing with ALL the mobs. If you're only able to deal with a small portion of them (as I said is the case with Ash) then that's not a good nuke frame.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And if you're in spy vaults just nuking sensor drones instead of using stealth, you're just as much of a problem there, too. Because sensor drones ALWAYS trigger alarms when attacked, even if you destroy them in the first hit, and the game tells you as much.
I'm not sure what you mean by sensor drones so I can't say for sure if that's accurate or not. But I do know people run nukes through spy missions all the time without issue.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:I had other things I needed to do last night rather than just repeatedly try to illustrate for you the same handful of points, but now it's time to get ready for work again, and with just 5hr sleep, tbh I don't even feel rested at all but I wake up only to see you're still making the same false argument here and it's becoming more of a chore to discuss this than I care to continue engaging in.
But you're just admitting you're using bad frames/builds and blaming the playstyle when you're not doing it effectively to begin with.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Especially when repeatedly in his same thread you see multiple other people making points you disagree with, and when provided with statistics or concrete examples you continue to make the same poorly reasoned false arguments. I'm inclined to agree with others here that you really don't seem to play this game or understand how it works.
There really haven't been any concrete examples. The most concrete thing has been Waeleto's frame usage data, but even that only puts him running middle of the pack and dropping as his survivability becomes more and more irrelevant throughout the year. It sounds more like you're upset that you didn't know anything at all about how Hydroid works or plays and your idea of how the different playstyles are supposed to function is just wrong.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:If you're quite insistent to be wrong, keep on being wrong. But just remember that if all you do is nuke everything, then no you're not wishing that there were situations in the game where stealth or control are better options than slaughter. You're just disregarding every instance where they are the better options, and almost definitely often making the game worse for the people unfortunate enough to end up in squad with you
There is no instance where they're the better option. You're disregarding the fact that the frames and builds you're using are terrible and ineffective nukers and claiming that's indicative of the playstyle.
8 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:no, he said inaros prime is 31st out of all frames prime and non prime, well more than 56. And the ones he mentioned in the post I replied to are all frames that are well regarded as being in good shape. I'm not saying they're meta frames, but they're all consistently useful frames and not ones that many people would generally regard as bad or needing a rework
Yes, he clarified and I already commented on that. However, with the exception of Baruuk, all the frames he said were below Inaros do get regular complaints about getting updates to their kit. Not as drastic as Inaros', but still changes wanted all the same. Take Frost for example, people have wanted a Frost rework for a long time.
5 hours ago, _Anise_ said:they should have made the puddle his "slide animation" (or dodge)
Yeah, I thought that would've been really cool. But I guess maybe it would be unfair to the other frames to have his dodge also be an ability.
6 hours ago, _Anise_ said:as for someone who got Inaros from the quest leveled and instantly fed him into the blender then got his prime leveled and never touched it again, the rework dosn't sound bad,
the new kit on paper looks more inspired than some recent warframe kits and I have seen people calling this rework "sand saryn"
It's not "bad" like I said I just don't feel like it's enough and I'm worried that means he's just going to get tossed to the wayside to wait another almost decade for the proper rework he deserves to give him some real value and identity outside his healthbar.
3 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:Personally i'm just gonna wait for the rework to go live and try it before forming any opinions..
You're welcome to do so. Personally, I don't need to see it live to see how these changes stack up against similar abilities and how far behind Inaros is by comparison.
3 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:I thought it looked great. Inaros didn't need anything, and what he got seems to be a full suite of useful abilities.
He definitely did (and still does) need a lot. His kit has been outdated for a long time and these changes still don't bring him up to modern standards. If Inaros released today even with the proposed rework, he would be considered one of the worst frames in the game. It's really only off his legacy as a tank that he's hanging on at all and that's going to start dropping as shield gating and overguard become more standard.
2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:Alot if people are skipping over the fact that his Scarb Swarm damage scales with his Health Pool, and they also changed how the corrosive procs work.
Which means Inaros will really want to use Green Shards which means he will be able to strip armor.
This why they're calling it a "Sand Saryn"
Yes, this is all helpful, but the problem is scaling off health still means it has a fixed cap, unlike Saryn, and unless the numbers in Pablo's demo are wildly lower than what will be hitting live or there's some kind of insane exponential scaling instead of mostly linear, they also weren't all that good and even with a fully maxed health build that damage isn't going to be able to keep up with basically any of the good DPS frames, even with that armor strip (which I also think people are wildly overstating as it's just a slow corrosive proc, it's not like Hydroid where there are multiple sources of enhanced corrosive procs hitting really fast all the time), not to mention the clunkiness of him being forced to rely on shards like you're saying to begin with when he's already not that great.
1 hour ago, spider_enigma said:he is a cc frame
overguard prevents cc
Even without the overguard issue his CC potential has never been all that great. Both pocket sand and sandstorm don't have enough range to really be worth trying to run him as a CC focused frame, it's just an afterthought of his kit.
-
3 minutes ago, Waeleto said:
I counted both primes and regulars, so if we're counting primes and warframes with no primes only he'd be 24th (i think might be 1 higher or lower)
Still a very good place
Ah, better, but I fully expect that number to drop now that shield gating is becoming the meta. I imagine that was really the only thing keeping him up was the ease of use for the health bar to be able to facetank without much thought or investment necessary.
-
49 minutes ago, Waeleto said:
SO you're saying mag, ash, baruuk, nova, voruna, gara, frost, gyre, zephyr, ember, yareli, sevagoth, atlas all need a rework ? because if you're saying so you're just wrong
Not all of them full-on reworks, no, but they all do have people arguing that their kit overall isn't that great/is clunky/is outdated/etc. Except for Baruuk, that one I don't understand, but maybe that's just because people find him boring.
45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Here you're either missing or ignoring what I'm saying. In interception, new enemies never spawn unless you kill the enemies on the field. Killing enemies causes them to spawn elsewhere and causes adds to spawn. ALSO elsewhere. So locking down enemies keeps them off the objectives while you can hold all 4 points. Nuking enemies causes other towers to be overrun with more enemies, while you're still just taking one point at a time and they're now taking the other 3, but in force. The reason so many people hate high level interception is because at a certain point, it DOES effectively punish the nuke everything play style, and even if you're strong enough to continuously nuke everything at the piint you're holding, you're actively punishing the rest of your squad for playing with you by forcing the enemies that COULD have been made harmless, plus the adds you spawned, to overrun the points you ARENT at. So while controlling the enemy SPEEDS UP the mission and eliminates any threat at other towers, nuking everything at one tower SLOWS DOWN the mission while making it a pain for other players to deal with the strongest enemy in the mission: the brainless nuke player. A cc frame, however is helping everyone clear the mission FASTER by preventing enemies from spawning at the other tower, since adds ONLY spawn when enemies respawn, and enemies ONLY respawn when they DIE.
No, I'm saying the amount of enemies on the map at any given time stays the same. You don't fight more enemies than you were before by killing them, you just replace the ones you killed. And there's no CC frame in the game that can solo hold all 4 points better than a nuke frame can, old Hydroid DEFINITELY couldn't. There is no point where nuking becomes detrimental, people hate interception specifically because the mission is locked to a set duration regardless of KPM, so it doesn't matter how many you kill you can't progress the mission any faster. That being said, any good nuke frame can easily hold all 4 points and clear out the replacement waves long before they manage to take any of the other towers, they don't have to just sit at one tower because they can easily just move to the next and wipe it out. That's the whole point, the CC frame is the one that's not going to help things because both are going to finish the round in the same time, but then at the end of it you still have to clear all the remaining enemies, where a nuke frame can do it in a second, the CC frame can't. There is literally NO context where a CC frame is more efficient for completing these missions other than assuming the nuke frame PLAYER is bad and isn't performing at the level they should, but that A. can be said about the CC frame as well and B. doesn't reflect on the concept of nuke frame vs CC frame anyway.
45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Your best chance of survival is to make enemies unable to attack you. This is accomplished through remaining undetected, hard cc, or if you're incapable of doing either, just nuking so you don't have to actually be good to play. So approaching every situation with the intent to mindlessly nuke is objectively just the sloppiest way to play, not the best. Again, you're just defending playing like a cracked-out baboon, which I already mentioned is fundamentally problematic. And in many mission types the game attempts to punish playing that way, but people disregard that because they can just easily mod beyond any deterrents to brainless play styles,which again doesn't make it better
No your best way to make enemies unable to attack you is for them to be dead. It IS the best because it is the most effective, the most efficient, and the most rewarding. What you're arguing about is a thematical issue, not one that actually reflects in the gameplay. It's literally harder to keep a mission CC locked or remain undetected than it is to just nuke them for absolutely no extra benefit at all, and in most cases you physically cannot progress the missions without killing the enemies so it's entirely pointless too. Again, I fully agree I wish the game had more room for CC and stealth. But it doesn't. To argue that there is any context where DPS is not the best answer is just false. You can have frames that are not as good at DPS as others are at CC, but that's a different issue, that's literally because they are not effective enough at nuking to be good.
45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:I'm saying 2+3, 4. Or if you missed some enemies, 2+3, melee melee melee, 4, since targeted melee from puddle pulled enemies into the radius, but overall 2+3, 4 was preferable. You're saying that can now be done w just 2+4, and I conceded that I'm going to need to check that out bc I didn't realize that, but it's still problematic in that 4 is now a troll ability that negates powers like bladestorm which is significantly more powerful than anything in hydroids kit, so using 4 as hydroid slows down the mission by using a weaker ability to prevent stronger abilities, in the case of combat scenarios.
Well then yes, 2+4 alone is a more than suitable replacement and will save you a lot more energy too than the method you're describing. But also I disagree about bladestorm being stronger than Hydroid's kit anymore. Previously, sure, but now with a 2+4+1+3 combo you can group all the enemies in your path, hard lock them in place, strip all their armor EXTREMELY quick, and convert that into a massive boost of armor for yourself as well as 400-600% extra damage on average depending on strength, meaning Hydroid starts putting out millions of damage with almost any weapon.
45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Unless using a glaive, meleeing enemies suspended by swarm ISNT anywhere close to as convenient as 'slash the tentacle to transfer damage like zephyrs 4
Well Zephyr has extra interactions though, so that's its own thing, and Hydroid's NEVER had that functionality. So that's kind of moot unless we're just talking about the ability to transfer raw melee damage, in which case, like I said, you can just melee them outright because they're held low enough and held still to hit.
45 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:The reason ash is so good in lvlcap is because the damage he can deal from finishers IS superior to what a lot of frames can get with alternatives
It's not though. Not without a bunch of external buffing sources at least, most of which also apply to other frames that can then get better results, as stated with the previous Hydroid combo. Being an avid melee player, I personally subsume off Hydroid's 4 and replace it with Kullervo's teleport for the crit buff so I get a flat +300% crit chance to my heavy strikes and there's not much I can't delete with that.
41 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Sorry to doublepost, but just wanna point out how priceless it is that all the frames you just mentioned are ridiculously popular
He said those are all the frames that are below Inaros who's in 31st out of 56 total. So, not really?
-
12 minutes ago, Waeleto said:
Inaros prime has the playrate of 1.11% in 2023
He's currently with a higher playrate than magP/lokiP/ashP/baruukP/novaP/voruna/garaP/frostP/vaubanP/gyre/zephyrP/trinityP/emberP/equinoxP/yareli/valkyrP/limboP/oberonP/sevagoth/atlasP/bansheeP/nyxP/caliban
and i didn't even count warframes release in 2023 or hydroid because he's recently reworked
He's currently sitting at the 31st spot counting both primes and regulars so NO Inaros doesn't have a low playrate in fact his playrate is very healthy and even Pablo was surprised that people asked for an inaros rework when his playrate wasn't low but in the middle
Not to mention your logic is flawed because what you said suggests that every warframe with a low playrate needs a rework so you're suggesting all the warframes i listed above need a rework and while some of them do most don'tAlmost every frame listed there has been requested for a rework or touchup of some kind with reasonable regularity.
-
5 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:
But just killing everything faster ISNT always the best way to play, and stealth and control and tactful play DO have a place in the game. Just because sloppy gameplay has become the norm doesn't negate that reality, it just marginalizes it because the expectation from sloppy players is that you must also play sloppy to compensate. In (sorry to use the same example again but) interception specifically where killing enemies causes more enemies to spawn, Its always going to be faster to pin down enemies and keep enemy density low than it is to flood the map, especially when nuking one part of the map just causes the adds to spawn where you aren't. So while you're nuking everything at a, you're making enemies spawn at b c and d in greater quantities, at best causing the mission to take longer because you now have more enemies to deal with and they're capturing towers that the player nuking had no reason to put them at, whereas holding the small number of starting enemies creates no adds, doesn't push enemies to where you aren't, and doesn't cause you to lose towers, thereby dragging out completion time. The matter of whether you can delete lvl500 enemies is irrelevant when the issue is that you're making a greater number of enemies than you need to be dealing with and putting them in places where they'll impede mission progress instead of holding them in a harmless location.
But again, that's the whole point is killing the enemies DOESN'T create any more enemies than you're already dealing with. The enemy cap is fixed per round, it doesn't increase based on how many you kill, unless you're talking about new waves spawning, but having to deal with more waves inherently implies you are able to kill them without issue. There's also the matter that most CC frames can only effectively cover a similar area to what a nuke frame can anyway, so it's not like the nuke frames are any less effective at point coverage than a CC frame, and if you're playing a nuke frame effectively the enemies should never be touching the control points to begin with to ever lose them, so it sounds more like your issue is with ineffective nuke frames, not the playstyle itself, which really only reinforces the idea that more firepower IS the better answer. Not to mention, there's still the matter that every enemy dealt with directly translates to more rewards, so assuming both styles are able to complete the mission, it is objectively more beneficial to gear towards killing faster rather than CC lock.
11 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Saying "The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all." Isn't very constructive here as it's both false and a defense of sloppy playing which is irrelevant to what I was saying. The problem with hydroid2 already was that too many people play like cracked-out baboons, and that interferes with a frame that performed exceptionally in situations where thats especially bad.
No, the problem with Hydroid was that in the vast majority of content, the best he could do was delay a mission rather than progress it, similar to the issues Limbo has, but Limbo at least had other effectiveness as a safety net and worked really well with weapon-based combat with stasis. Again, the game directly rewards you for killing more enemies, it doesn't reward you at all for CC'ing them or avoiding killing them, and your best chance of survival is if no threats are alive to begin with. So it is OBJECTIVELY the best way to play.
14 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And I wasn't talking about wavedashing out of puddle, I was talking about wavedashing into puddle. 2+3, not 3+2.
Okay, but that still only catches what you already had in the dash is the problem. So in order to effectively use that for grouping you'd have to dash, puddle, unpuddle, dash, puddle, unpuddle, and essentially just burn a ton of energy on something that's only delaying your progress in most content and is also really inefficient for grouping to begin with.
16 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Also, while suspending enemies like khoras 4 is preferred by many, I dislike it as I much preferred being able to damage the held enemies by using melee on the tentacles. The matter of the tentacles theashing enemies about was moot when targeting them was as simple as attacking the base of the tentacle.
Okay, but you can now just melee them outright. No interaction was lost there it was just made more convenient for every other purpose.
17 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And locking you inplace for a slow animation int what makes a finisher a finisher, it's just your chief complaint about finishers. The fact that you can mod those weaknesses out of the attack or initiate finishers from a slide to make them faster only attests to that. What makes a finisher a finisher is that it gets a damage multiplier as well as bypassing defenses like armor and damage resistances, allowing it to deal massive amounts of true damage.
My point was that the only thing that sets the finisher apart from other high-damage sources is the animation lock. There are other sources of true damage that don't require that restriction, so the defining factor of a finisher IS the animation. And even with those bypasses, the damage still isn't comparable to what a lot of frames can get with less restrictive options.
20 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And no, I don't know how to do that.. sorry, I'm not very good at posting from my phone. I don't mean to make your page an illegible mess..
All good. No worries.
13 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:OP, whether you meant to be condescending to mykk or not, that's how mykk took it, and doubling down on that certainly is condescending. At this point you're both just bowing up at each other and I don't think that's good for the points either of you are making. It's a bad look both ways imo
I'd agree if he hadn't been condescending from literally his first post. He's done nothing but try to be inflammatory and blatantly ignore the facts while claiming I'm the one who doesn't want to discuss I see no reason to treat him with the slightest shred of respect when he's shown nothing but a desire to instigate.
10 minutes ago, trst said:Factually wrong: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats His Prime has literally sat near the top in combined usage over the last four years as well as his non-Prime being above a lot of other frames. Players are playing him for a reason and those reasons are still valid with the changes we've seen while his issues do appear to have been addressed. And, again, his popularity means he wouldn't see any large changes since he's clearly "good enough" for a large number of players as is.
?
?
?
13 minutes ago, trst said:Raw survivability is one of the major complaints players brought up with him as the two other frames in the no shield boat have built-in mechanics for survivability. He also literally can't use all the same methods due to lacking shields. Also I got no idea what you're referring to with "mid-level content" as his kit was already suitable for "high-level" and he's gaining mechanics that're even more relevant for such content.
It's not though. Survivability is literally the one and only thing Inaros has to spare. Popping a rolling guard on him and any regen source makes you effectively immortal. Yeah he can't abuse shield gating, but even without it he's still absurdly tanky. And no, his abilities fall off even just late star chart. Have you ever tried to use his 2, 3, or 4 for damage? The only thing he can do is pocket sand finishers, which are better served by any number of frames that have WAY better scaling.
16 minutes ago, trst said:Fast, AOE, light CC (more relevant to a frame that always takes chip damage), heals, and opens enemies to finishers. It's not the best ability but it's definitely a good ability especially as far as "1st abilities" are concerned. Also finishers are good even if you fail to see the value in them.
All made irrelevant by the part where finishers are about the worst possible source of DPS to rely on. Again, the game centers around KPM these days. A frame that is entirely reliant on slowly performing a long animation on each and every enemy that won't even kill them in content beyond the star chart is just bad, period.
17 minutes ago, trst said:Better is literally all that matters when we're talking about a frame that's already popular with effectively zero abilities.
Except it's not when the whole problem is that he effectively has zero abilities.
20 minutes ago, trst said:Extra armor, status immunity, and the option of an extra death nullification is fantastic for a frame that lacks shields. Even if Scarab Swarm isn't a lot of procs it's still an AOE source of some armor stripping; paired with Emerald Shards and any other source of Corrosive damage gives his a full strip option. Or at the very least it's a free AOE status proc for status scaling effects if you don't normally run Corrosive on weapons.
And his Sand Shadows were awful due to being tied to Devour, getting to spawn summons just from pressing a button and killing an enemy is far more practical. Plus it doesn't matter exactly what they do nor how long they last as summons are still another layer of indirect survivability.
Again, not denying they're improvements, they're just not improvements that are going to make him good.
21 minutes ago, trst said:And yet again he stacks up just fine vs all the other frames in his current state. Also at this point his one defining trait doesn't matter as much when he now has a unique ability kit to utilize. Being more than just a walking health bar is better than only being known as the walking health bar.
He doesn't though. His kit is literally less than it was before just with extra QoL.
-
1
-
-
32 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:
Just because the most popular way to play is "just killing enemies as fast as possible" doesn't make it the best way. A number of missions offer drawbacks to playing that way, people just mod hard enough to make them unnoticeable, which is a problem with development, not a pro lem with hydroid.
It is the best way to play though. Regardless of what mission type you're in, it's always more optimal to be able to kill everything before it can react rather than try to CC lock it or avoid the fight entirely if not just because you'll receive additional rewards you wouldn't from playing either other way. I'm not saying I like that outcome, I would much prefer if CC and stealth and more tactful gameplay had a place, but it simply doesn't anymore. The only situations where more firepower isn't the better answer are ones that don't involve enemies at all.
34 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And whether hydroid3s new 4 negating targeting abilities is intended or not, it does occur consistently, making his 4 now a troll ability, rather than a control ability. And again, hysroid2 wavedashing to puddle didn't throw enemies away,it locked them into the puddle.
It would only lock the ones picked up in that dash, but what I'm saying is that if you already have enemies in the puddle and you tried to use tidal surge, it would leave the enemies you had trapped behind, freeing them, and pick up any new ones instead. This was always a huge gripe among Hydroid players, I, again, being one of them. People assumed if another rework ever came that would be one of the changes would be to make the dash not leave enemies behind, but I believe they commented at one point stating they explicitly didn't want what you're describing to happen where someone just gathers up all the enemies without any risk or drawback.
37 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:If you can now combo 2 and 4 to achieve the same effect then I'll have to play around w it and see if it's as effective as you say, but it's still held back by the problems that his 4 now poses for co-op play.
You can, just surge any enemies you want grouped and then immediately cast 4 on them while they're still down and they'll get locked together. As for co-op, I'm fairly positive whatever you're describing is a bug, but even without that it still also gained improvements for co-op just from not thrashing enemies around so they're now easier to hit.
39 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:In either case, saying that just killing everything is a fine solution notably disregards interception where the more enemies you kill, the more enemies spawn. And since interception does scale up enemy level, in SP getting a saryn or mesa in sqd in interception means you're gonna have a bad time. Past lvl300, if I have an option between dealing with 15 enemies for 1 minute or dealing with 500 for 5-10 minutes, I'm going to go play solo where my squad aren't the greatest threat to mission success.
But we again return to the fact that genuinely good frames can delete enemies level 300 or 500 in the blink of an eye, Hydroid included now. Plus interception doesn't scale either the level or density of enemies per enemy killed, so you're going to be fighting the same difficulty of waves no matter how many you kill, it only goes up per round. Not to mention if we're really going to get into the value of different playstyles, there's no value of any kind to stay in an endurance mission long-term because it will always be more efficient to just reset the run and start over once things start to present any kind of challenge.
43 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:At best you're spending 5-10minutes on a round that should have taken 1-2 minutes, and while khora and vauban are still capable of achieving that in solo play where you don't have to worry about idiots interfering, as far as I've seen, hydroid no longer has the capacity to outperform either of them, where previously ye was my frame of choice in those inatances. I personally feel that in terms of hard cc, he's gone from s tier to c, or f tier due if nothing else to his ult now impeding other players abilities. Even if tempest and tidal are comparable or better than before, and even if combo 2+4 achieves the same effect as casting from puddle used to, that one point makes his 4 bad across the board
I'm not sure what you mean by this as missions like intercept have a fixed duration assuming you're in control of all the points, which again can be answered just as easily with a room nuker as a CC lock. And Hydroid's CC potential is largely the same if not better. The only notable exception you're claiming if I'm not mistaken is this interaction with other targeting abilities, but then they shouldn't be relevant in whether the enemy stays CC'd or not. So I'm not really following how he became less control capable when everything got better for that purpose with the exception of losing puddle.
46 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And yes, covert lethality works with ash, although it's been nerfed to provide bonus finisher damage and not instakill, and finishers are faster based on attack speed and momentum at time of attack,meaning that a finisher performed under the effects of the speed boost from sliding is significantly faster. There also are methods to bring finisher damage high enough that even at lvlcap, finisher attacks are viable with ash. Less because of the finisher itself killing enemies, and more from the forced slash procs benefitting from the high base dmg provided by the finisher, as well as ash's passive causing slash prices to deal more damage and last longer. In this regard ash, excal, baruuk, and to an extent even banshee now benefit more from finishers than inaros, and a good dagger can quickly create openings for strong finishers without needing to cast at all
I knew it applied to his teleport but I didn't think it applied to his 4, but maybe that's why it got nerfed. At any rate, all of this is only proving my point that finishers only become usable when you either all but completely remove what defines the finisher which is the animation lock with attack speed buffs, or have multiple other buffing factors on top of them, which Inaros does not, and even then we're still just boiling it down to "big damage number good" so it would still just be better to take a frame that gets similar damage outputs without being reliant on finishers at all. So we're just back to Inaros' kit being pretty pointless.
Also I'm not sure if you know, but you can highlight someone's text to only quote the part of the post you actually want to reply to. Just makes things easier to follow.
-
44 minutes ago, trst said:
Inaros was never going to get a major rework due to him having remained a very popular frame despite his state. That said though while there's no reason to judge the actual performance of the rework until we get some hands on experience with it I don't see how it's lackluster. Especially if his "issue" is pointless abilities and potential survivability issues vs super high levels.
"Very popular" is a pretty big stretch. He's definitely in the bottom tiers for playtime. But also, there's plenty of reason to judge the performance, we don't need hands-on experience with it specifically because he's staying 90% the same with only minor tweaks. We already know how his kit performs right now, not well, a bit more immortality, some extra movespeed, or an extra few ticks of corrosive isn't gonna change that. Also, as I said, my issue is less with the changes he got themselves and more with the fact that it pulls attention off Inaros when I feel like he definitely deserves a lot more.
44 minutes ago, trst said:His passive can finally be usable which alone can solve most of his possible survivability concerns.
Inaros never had raw survivability concerns. That's part of the issue is that's still a lot of what the rework is geared towards but as I already pointed out, any frame can already become virtually invincible, Inaros can use all the same methods in addition to his absurdly high HP. The only part of Inaros' survivability that was concerning was the inability for his kit to keep up with even mid-level content, which he's still going to suffer from with these changes.
44 minutes ago, trst said:Desiccation was already a good ability and is only getting better with more enemies able to be hit with finishers. As there's plenty of finisher synergies he can make use of and it's always an option for one-shotting tankier enemies if your weapons are falling short.
Desiccation really isn't a very good ability, specifically because finishers aren't very good because of how much they break the flow of gameplay and slow the pace of combat and they only get worse as you start encountering actual high-level content, not even getting into like endurance runs but just the upper ends of steel path and such enemies will already start surviving raw finishers without extra resistance removal or modifiers.
44 minutes ago, trst said:The new Sandstorm functions as a better "oh sh*t" ability now being faster and healing him. Plus being a grouping ability now means it has use in all situations.
It's definitely better, but it's still really short-range and just not as good as the multitude of other CC options on better frames.
44 minutes ago, trst said:His new 3 is still the same old 4th ability but now innately gives status immunity plus the new augment gives you a second layer to his passive.
And the new Scarab Swarm now works as a way to spread Corrosive procs and the sand Kavats also help survivability with diverting enemy fire.
Same with these, they're improvements, yes, but they're so minor to abilities that are so far behind the curve that it really won't make any impact. 1 corrosive proc a second isn't going to make a huge difference, and summonables have never been great, not to mention he already had the sand clones off devour which he already got to be fully immortal for the duration and "guaranteed" a kill on anything you were patient enough to sit around for, so if the abilities are still going to be ineffective anyway, it doesn't really add any new potential to him.
44 minutes ago, trst said:All in all it sounds like all his concerns have been addressed. Ways to survive stupidly high level enemies and his abilities sound like they're actually worth using all while retaining why players play Inaros in the first place. All that remains is to see just how it performs in action which can only be an improvement since he's still same old Inaros but with all his existing mechanics buffed.
Again, that's the issue, if we're looking at Inaros in a vacuum with only himself then sure, you could call them worthwhile improvements. But Inaros doesn't exist in a vacuum, he has to stack up against 55 other frames. And in that lens, he's still miles behind with his one defining trait being made more and more irrelevant as the game goes on and the average survivability of each from gets higher and higher.
30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Well, that's more a problem with how many people used hydroid though rather than hydroids ability to control. Tempest barrage did knockdown, but wasn't generally necessary so it was my subsume slot. Tidal, when used from undertow, didn't throw anything around, it gathered any enemies you wavedash through directly into the puddle, where you could cast swarm from to lock all enemies in one place. With good duration, this made hydroid2 significantly better than khora or vauban for control based missions like interception, as you could reliably keep all enemies in the mission pinned to exactly where you wanted them while you captured and held the entire map, at any level. The only problem with that is that even in noncombat missions you have other players deciding to nuke your held enemies causing more and more and more to spawn until they flooded the map, and then complained how bad the gamemode is when the problem is really just bad players doing bad things. Hydroid3, however, simply can't do that. Yes tempest is better now, but tidal isn't particularly, undertow is gone and with it all of the fine tuned control that it enabled the swarm, and the swarm for that matter now suspends enemies wherever throughout it's range, not specifically where our want them. The drastic reductions to his capacity for control combined with the new swarm suspending enemies and thereby negating targeting powers from squadmates, not only shoehorns him into a DPS role, but makes him a bad co-op frame unless you run into a hydroid that knows better than to use his ult.
But that doesn't work. With old puddle, if you tidal surged out, you didn't take the enemies with you, you dropped them behind. For simply grouping all the enemies new tidal surge is WAY better because you can actually do what you're describing with just tidal surge alone since it actually keeps them all together instead of yeeting them at the end of your cast. This also works to compact his ult where you just ball them up and the immediately cast it and you have them in a nice, tightly-knit ball. I'm also still not sure what you're talking about with the targeting negation, as far as I know, all targeted abilities are still intended to work.
30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Previously you could select where enemies were locked down based on how you cast swarm,with a variety of options. Now it automatically casts at max charge, but without it's previous synergy, and with the added detriment of disabling other players abilities.
I'm also not sure what you mean by this because you can still do all the same stuff but better.
30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:I WILL concede that he needed the change from magnetic to corrosive,that was good. And his new passive is much better, but he also lost the ability to transfer melee damage to held enemies by attacking the tentacles(like zephyrs tornadoes) which was useful for combat purposes.. but overall where hydroid performed best was missions where direct combat is punished by game mechanics, which is often overlooked because players just mod to be strong enough to ignore any deterrents to direct combat, and bruteforce their way through the game until they reach levels where they'll get killed for doing it, and as most such missions are limited in scope and level scaling, most of the time you won't encounter a scenario where the game punishes effectively enough to deter combat heavy frames. That doesn't make hydroid2 bad, but it DID make him bad in multiplayer, because your squad usually would end up creating a situation where you would have been better off just playing solo
I don't think that's true either though because there's a reason the saying is "The best CC is dead". While you might prefer to lock down all the enemies in the level instead, it still stands to reason that it makes more sense to just nuke all the enemies all the time and clear the mission while also getting the extra rewards from the kills. Not to mention, like I said, you can still group enemies even more effectively than you could before you just do it with tidal surge instead of puddle.
30 minutes ago, Dax-Kriegor said:And as for finishers, I gotta say as an ash main, for me at least finishers stay relevant well past lvl2000, and don't force me to be stuck in one place, as I can summon shadows to perform finishers while I do other things(yes, I know I don't get credit for any of the damage or kills my shadows get, but the benefit to the mission is the same regardless)
Well that's because you're removing the gigantic drawback of finishers which is the forced animation. At that point you're just describing DPS in general, it's not the fact that they are finishers that are helping you, it's just the act of dealing damage. The only exception to this is when using Covert Lethality to force the finisher to be a kill, but even then I don't think it applies to Ash 4 so we're back to being stuck in long animations in a game that every day becomes more about clearing massive amounts of enemies as fast as possible.
-
1
-
-
23 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:
The ironic thing is you don't even realise this one short sentence literally contradicts itself, whilst also being a description of your own views. That's astounding. "All I'm hearing" followed by the rest, truly, truly astounding.
But you're correct, you're too afraid of being wrong to have a mature conversation with. Luckily it would be inconsequential anyway, given how you won't be getting what you want. Good luck.
No you just refuse every bit of evidence to lie through your teeth about what you blindly believe is right. Do me a favor, little science experiment, go search "Inaros" on the forums and see how many results you get, then do "Hydroid" and see if that lines up with your theory that Inaros is never talked about and that nobody ever shut up about Hydroid. Since I know facts aren't your strong suit I'll do the math for you, 30% more results for Hydroid. Does a 30% difference for a frame that's had 2 separate reworks sound like the utterly incomparable difference you were trying to paint it as? Sure doesn't to me. But again, I know facts aren't your strong suit so I'll help you out again, no, Inaros was in just as bad of a state as Hydroid and being talked about for just as long. Everything you've said from the very first word has been false. You're not here to have a discussion like I have with everyone else, you're here to make stuff up and then cry about it when you get proven wrong and try to deflect with false claims that people were "condescending" to you or "not willing to discuss" when that ONLY describes you here. Get off my post.
-
3
-
-
28 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:
You certainly were condescending, and you don't get to decide you weren't. Your decision in the matter revolves around whether you're capable of apologising for it, and we got our answer.
And no, Hydroid wasn't the same way. Pretty much weekly threads, and has famously been bottom of the barrel, known by both players and devs, for years now. Comparing apples to tractors may work for you in other areas of your life, but its not going to cut it here. Once again, another instance of having to factcheck the person claiming others don't even play the game.
At this stage given how both your defense of why Inaros needed a rework before any of the other worse Warframes, and the explanation of why Inaros' rework needs more both falling flat, the only thing really interesting left in this thread is how you haven't noticed that you've had to post a huge reply to defend your views, but still haven't considered that to be a glaring sign you might just be wrong.
All I'm hearing is that you're going to ignore the facts to make up whatever narrative fits your preference. The fact you think my reply only pertained to you and didn't bother to see that I was simply engaging anyone who bothered to give their thoughts tells me you WILDLY overvalue your own wrong opinions and aren't worth discussing with any further. Don't reply anymore.
-
4
-
-
20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:
Might want to pump the brakes on your condescending replies or your thread won't last long.
Nothing about what I said was condescending.
20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:As for the matter being discussed, I said consistently for a reason. An inaros rework thread popping up once every few months isn't consistent, nor does it somehow make it needed. And before Overguard was added that's what we had, one popping up every few months, because Inaros' 8k - 9k health pool, which turned into 10k with his prime, did the job.
Hydroid was the same way but still got his. It also really only emphasizes my point that people have wanted this for so long that people have already beaten that dead horse enough to not be in the limelight. Naturally, the forums are going to be primarily filled with comments about modern issues, not a near-decade-old frame. And yes, his healthpool USED to prop him up, but even then people were still unhappy with the lackluster state of his kit, and as I pointed out, that healthpool has become entirely irrelevant given the state of survival tools. Hence, seeing him get such a minimal rework is sad.
20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:And no, trinity doesn't have great powers. 2 of her powers place an enemy floating or stunned in one spot in order to give out health or energy. In a game which has been heading in a "run & gun" direction for the last few years. (And yes, this should probably be that moment when you regret bringing up if someone has been playing the game, yet you yourself can't see the problem with 2 powers holding singular enemies in one spot while everyone runs past them, contributing nothing)
I literally addressed the fact that they were just out of place in the game. But, no, despite your personal grievances, those abilities are still really good. Being able to refill energy and health completely on demand is very strong. They're just not needed because of the focus on killing things in the blink of an eye anyway. Inaros' abilities on the other hand are both unfitting for the game AND weak. Inaros doesn't fill an untapped niche like Trinity, he just has a weak and outdated kit, period.
20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:The other 2 powers are nearly useless. One is supposed to either pass off damage to enemies or armour strip them, but of course you don't get to choose which 3 enemies it is so you have to go chasing whichever ones the power picks, like a dog. The other was so forgettable, that when Helminth Released nobody noticed a better version of it was one of the Helminths Innate powers.
Link was literally a major staple in extremely broken builds for a while there before it got nerfed. Blessing is also a full heal plus temporary immortality and status immunity, so now you're contradicting yourself by claiming that Inaros' survivability is enough to prop him up alone but that when Trinity provides the best survivability in the game at the press of a button to her whole team it's somehow "nearly useless".
20 hours ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:And I'll try yelling "conceptually interesting" into my controller next time I'm using Caliban, maybe that weird point to bring up will make a difference. In the meantime he's easily now the new (old) Hydroid, and Reworks should be chosen from the bottom up.
You whine about me being condescending but then think this isn't? Well regardless of your weird double standards when having your points countered, I disagree, with the exception of game-breaking issues and the "feedback window" after an update, reworks for content should be prioritized first by how long content has been in need of an update, then by the severity of the problem. For Inaros, that's basically since he dropped almost a decade ago vs Caliban just closing out 2 years. Hydroid also follows that precedent where Hydroid had niche uses, just like you're claiming Inaros does, but he had also been suffering for so long that he deserved the attention.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Hydroid was great at fine tuned control, he just was unpopular because he wasn't a DPS, and even in missions where hydroid shined, generally the way that people play(kill everything even if that's not beneficial or is actively detrimental to the mission) nullified any utility he had, making hydroid a really great solo frame but even less used than inaros.. and that's why hydroid got reworked. He wasn't truly bad, he just got a class change so that people would play him more.
Well no, because even Hydroid's control wasn't all that good. Tempest Barrage had unreliable targeting and just knocked stuff down, not terrible but not that good either, Tidal surge threw things all over the place, which was inconvenient, Tentacle Swarm also thrashed their targets around making them hard to deal with vs a normal CC, and Puddle while funny, literally brought the game to a crawl. Hydroid's main niche function was as a lootbooster, but he was also overshadowed in that regard too. THAT'S why he got a rework. He became a DPS because that's just the way of the game anymore. Raw CC just isn't valuable in the fast-paced, kills-per-minute-based meta. Even the best "CC frames" also have some form of damage in their kit anymore.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:I could argue that hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff, given that he is significantly worse at control now than he was, which was his primary role before, and his powers aren't any more synergistic than they were, as well as how his new 4 disables powers that target enemies so for instance ash can't use his ult if hydroid is using his, because hydroids new 4 completely negates bladestorm making him worse in cooperative play at the same time as losing much of his control as a tradeoff for being stronger and stripping enemy defenses, while still being significantly worse in solo play at the missions ye previously excelled at. But when you said, "nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff" I'm guessing you meant that you're not interested in any such argument so I'll leave it alone. Nobody really wants to hear it anyway I know. But as unpopular as he was, I played hydroid a lot, until his newest rework. Now I don't use him hardly at all.
I'll gladly discuss it if you think it's worth discussing I'm just not sure I agree. Tempest Barrage has better targeting and automatically casts at its previous max strength without any hold to charge, making it more reliable for control in addition to having the previous augment included and the base ability and the augment converted into a better one also making it better for damage, so all net positives there for both control and damage. Tidal Surge now drops enemies at your feet instead of flinging them away, making that better for control. The loss of puddle could be argued as a loss of control, but again it was more of a cheeky gimmick than a truly effective CC tool or ability. Tentacle Swarm also got better targeting, no longer thrashes enemies around, and now recaptures enemies who enter the area after cast so it's also better for control there. I don't know of any removed interactions with other abilities from its previous iteration so if you've noticed any I think that might be a bug rather than an intended change. And the only other "control" Hydroid had was his old passive of spawning a single tentacle, which I think we can both agree wasn't really doing much for him anyway.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:Also, finishers are capable of dealing massive damage when used well, and I wouldn't call them gimmicky, but inaros doesn't do finishers as well as other frames that have powers based around them..
They are, but so are any number of other sources that don't require you to be locked in place for a long animation. If they were a guaranteed kill then maybe, but if you start trying to do finishers in high-level content you're just gonna wind up tickling the enemy and getting shot to Hell. It's interesting to have extra effects on finishers, but just not viable to have them be the focus of a playstyle unless they're going to do something utterly ridiculous.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:As for inaros only existing for players that don't have the mechanical skill etc.. I've seen some inaros players fare better in sp than Revenants and Octavias.. not saying that makes inaros better than either of them, and he's not, but that's kind of my point.. those players were far more skilled than meta frame users. Because inaros mains HAVE to be more skilled, or at high levels they'll die.
Yes, I wasn't trying to say Inaros players are bad or anything, I'm just saying that his only real positive for the last however long has been the fact that he has a big healthbar, which isn't really relevant for skilled players because of the multitude of options to turn any frame into an immortal tank, so Inaros is an easier method of survival for players who don't have the means or skills to pull off those methods was what I was trying to say.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:On the other hand, conceptually interesting though he is, I've never seen a Caliban in sp..
Sadly raw damage is still the king of the game and in that regard, Caliban truly sucks. But that's why I think a rework for Caliban wouldn't need to be very intense. Preferably get a new 1 so he's not just ripping off Revenant, and then figure out a good scaling method for his damage output, problem solved. Comparatively, I don't think there's any simple scaling buff you can give to most of Inaros' current or proposed rework kit to make it interesting.
17 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:I do agree that inaros' kit is boring and not very helpful, though. And frames that are capable of "extinction level events" are much more popular, though I'm not entirely certain whether that's a good thing. I'd agree that inaros needs a good rework to his kit. I don't play inaros though, so I haven't really got good suggestions for how that should be handled..
Just my thoughts on the matter
Fair assessments. I used to play Inaros quite extensively and I believe I've already posted a proposed Inaros rework once, but they said they don't want to go too deep with him, so, for now, I'm just hoping for something that helps alleviate the "Just a glorified healthbar" issue and I don't think this rework does that. And I'm in somewhat the same boat about the direction of the meta. I do wish there was more room for creative solutions and subsequent frame designs, but sadly when a game becomes centered around grinding through waves of fodder, the best CC, the best survivability tool, the best everything is always going to be a dead enemy. To fix that would require a massive top-to-bottom restructuring of the core gameplay mechanics that's just too risky of a move to even take this late in Warframe's life. But hopefully, Soulframe can fit that more calculated and deliberate niche of playstyle.
10 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:pls remember zephyr went through a similar sitch and her rework was considered bad enough they had to give her a second one mere months later.
that said as long as the numbers stack up his new rework has a ton of potential. a strong armor strip ability, added mobility, increased survivability and good tweaks to his two best skills as well.
I sure hope that's the case because this just does not seem like "it" to me.
I don't know that I would call his 4 a "good armor strip ability" as all it really did was change the damage type to forced corrosive, but it still doesn't tick very fast, so in more cases than not, you're likely going to be able to kill an enemy long before you'd ever tick off any significant amount of armor from them with the corrosive procs alone, unlike Hydroid who got enhanced corrosive procs and tons of other corrosive damage throughout his kit. The mobility is nice, but not really going to be making any dramatic changes to his effectiveness, and the survivability was the one thing he already had more than enough of, so sort of moot there.
9 hours ago, Demigirlboss said:I think this post is kind of asking for Inaros to be reworked into something that people who aren't already playing Inaros would want to play, which I think misses the point of a rework. A rework is generally one of two things. Either it takes a Frame that sees next to no use due to an extremely subpar kit, and elevates them to something more of the playerbase wants to bother with (a la Hydroid), or it takes a Frame that already has some amount of a userbase, and refreshes it for more modern content or to make it a bit more well-rounded while still retaining the core of why that Frame had a userbase in the first place, such as Vauban or Titania.
This Inaros rework is absolutely the latter. The aim here wasn't to make Inaros insanely good so everyone would want to play him (though Nyx desperately needs such a thing), it was to update him to be more useful and to enable greater build variety by freeing up mod slots previously spent on just catching up to newer content. But it still fundamentally retains the core of what makes people wanna play Inaros, which is "I like being hilariously tanky and utterly unkillable." This rework still retains that, while also making him no longer need an augment for functionality that is pretty fundamental to a tank frame.
I understand that, I used to play Inaros a lot. However, as you said, the main (and arguably only real) draw of Inaros right now is his tankiness. But that's already almost entirely contained in his healthbar alone, making his actual kit a tiny portion of his identity. Inaros' kit is already virtually pointless as it only serves to feed the healthbar, but again, any frame in the game can be just as tanky as Inaros, so for his one and only significant trait to be "being tanky" is just not viable even from a pure frame-balance standpoint. Right now, Inaros barely dips his toes into some other areas, both live and in the proposed rework, and I think it would be much better to explore those a little deeper. For example the sand clones. Those were always an interesting concept, but they were so ridiculously clunky to get to with how slowly devour worked, you could absolutely find ways to get more of those on the field and you could also have them feed back into the tanky elements of Inaros by having him sap their health to heal his own. There are plenty of ways to feed into Inaros' identity as a tank, but also give him some more interesting and engaging abilities than 2 variants of pocket sand, a glorified rolling guard, and a mediocre corrosive procer.
7 hours ago, quxier said:His survivality sounds interesting. I have to play it before saying too much but it's not like "1 tap (almost) immortality like Revenant" nor +1 live every ~minute (Voruna). And it's not ability made into passive (Dagath).
Well arguably his survivability is more interesting (if less powerful) now on live than it will be under his rework if that's your perspective because right now you improve your survivability with devour which makes you immortal while doing it and technically can kill anything in the game it can be used on if you have the patience while also (arguably his most interesting and criminally under-explored aspect) spawning a sand clone, or a synergy between sandstorm and pocket sand that lets you sap health with it, and a give-and-take with your 4 of trading your extra armor for some damage. Whereas in the rework you lose devour entirely, sandstorm DOES become a "press button for (literal) immortality" and presumably no longer needs to synergize with pocket sand as a result, and there's no longer a conscious tradeoff with your armor, just a passive extra protection.
7 hours ago, quxier said:It depends what you like. "PUddle gimmick" were something not great BUT INTERESTING. Now we have "get armor" (afair). I don't think it's fair tradeof. Is it stronger? Sure. Is it better? Not for me.
Armor and damage based on corrosive procs in area, but yeah. I would agree puddle is more interesting, but it also just didn't fit with the pace and design of the game anymore. I would've liked to see puddle stay in some form, but I'll also definitely take Hydroid actually being an effective and fun frame to play over it as well.
7 hours ago, Waeleto said:couldn't agree more, inaros never REALLY needed a rework
Well I'd have to disagree and his low playrates would suggest the same.
5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:As far as theme goes, I halfway agree - like I had my own big dreams for how an awesome mummy frame should be - but DE basically didn't want to make a whole new frame and so they just tweaked things, and I think that's perfectly fair. It's not the dream, but it's a practical and fast update that is going to make him way more playable.
It's an improvement, but like I said, I'm worried this means he's just never going to get the real attention he deserves. Even with all the buffs his kit is still not going to be very effective compared to others at any given role, and his survivability is also all but nullified. He really does deserve better.
5 hours ago, Waeleto said:Level cap is irrelevant when balancing and no warframe should be judged by the ability to do level cap, Inaros already can survive for a couple of hours into the sp and will be able to do it better
Inaros mains myself included never wanted him to get overguard or shields because that defeats his whole purpose, he's to health what hildryn is to shields and he does it greatly
So can absolutely every frame in the game. The problem is that every other frame can do that AND be effective for other purposes where Inaros is JUST a tank and doesn't actually provide much of anything else that wouldn't be better served by plenty of other frames. Hildryn literally has one of the best defense strip abilities in the game and can get some pretty obscene damage out of her 1 when modded right, so her and Inaros are hardly comparable.
-
3
-
-
1 hour ago, quxier said:
It's still CC. For 25 energy it's ok. It's not like you have to do finishers. They are here for you IF YOU NEED. Then his 2 will heal so less need for it.
1 hour ago, quxier said:To be honest I think it's pretty decent concept, at least 2-4 + passive. DE/Pablo changed what was horrible (tornado and static suck) and put some flavors to abilities. It hasn't removed "interesting" parts like with the case of Hydroid (well, unless you find slowly sucking enemies with current 2nd good/interesting).
I feel like we will get only small tweak.
I'm aware, like I said, it's not like he's worse or completely useless, he's just not good either. The CC isn't great comparatively with other frames and the finishers break up the flow of gameplay too much to be worth anything. Inaros' main positive has always been his insane survivability, but as already point out, even that's completely overshadowed by other frames that also do infinitely better in both CC and damage departments.
But Hydroid is also a prime example of a rework done right. Hydroid went from one of the worst frames in the game who really only served as a mediocre lootboost gimmick or a single extremely slow paced synergy between puddle and barrage's augment to one of the strongest non-room-nuke frames with much more effective abilities, much better synergy between the rest of his kit, and an insanely good passive. So while the loss of puddle is tragic and it would've been cool to see it kept alive somehow, nobody can argue Hydroid didn't get a fair tradeoff at least.
34 minutes ago, (PSN)MYKK678 said:Inaros hasn't needed a "look into for so long". Folks only started consistently complaining about him when Overguard came in. He barely needed a change and so barely got one.
In the meantime frames like Trinity have 4 outdated powers, and Caliban released with either bad or already outdated powers making up his 4, and no news at all about them being looked at among others.
I don't know what game you've been playing or how new you are but people have been talking about Inaros' need for a rework for years, LONG before overguard was ever a thing. Inaros was invalidated well before then and really only exists for players who didn't have the mechanical skill/reactions to sustain the multiple other forms of immortality available to them. His kit is just conceptually very boring and ineffective. He was designed in a time where the maximum enemy density you'd be fighting at one time was typically about 6 and just hasn't evolved to keep up with the pace of the game at all and even in his prime he was really more of a glorified healthbar than a frame that actually had any effective abilities.
As for Trinity, her abilities are actually pretty good, they just suffer from the fact that there's virtually no content in the game where a medic or energy battery is really necessary because of the nature of the previously mentioned immortality methods for every frame in addition to the ever-growing focus towards mass extinction events being a baseline expectation for frames. Caliban is at least conceptually interesting (with the exception of his 1 which is for some reason just a copy of Revenant's 4) but just really weak with no form of proper scaling (which Inaros also suffers from btw) so I'd still say he needs less drastic changes than Inaros to be in a decent spot.-
1
-
-
Now I'm gonna start this out by stating 2 things. 1. I know they said this rework wasn't going to be very intense so to expect anything huge is already just having unrealistic expectations. 2. I also know that Inaros is "strong" in his high survivability and that makes up a large part of the value of his kit. However, even with both of those things in mind, I feel like I'm not alone in saying what was shown on today's Devstream 177 was pretty underwhelming for a frame that has needed attention for SO long.
Inaros' state has been such an issue for such a long time that the game has evolved around him to actually invalidate most of what little case existed against his need for change which was always his survivability. Back when Inaros came out that was a huge trait that had a lot of helpful scenarios, but as the game has moved on, all the frames have become more and more tanky or gained access to better and better survival tools to the point that with skilled play you can easily become functionally immortal anyway, leaving Inaros' main function to just be a skill gap bandaid. This issue is further compounded by the fact that Inaros definitely has the most boring kit of all the frames in the game, with his live iteration centering almost exclusively around slow, single target, low damage, stationary, or mediocre effectiveness CC abilities that hold next to no value in the modern state of the game. Now the proposed rework does a little bit to fix this issue with the reworked sandstorm and scarab swarm being faster-paced and covering a little more ground, but those still definitely aren't competing with a lot of the newer frame designs that do what those abilities are doing better, faster, farther, in addition to other things at the same time, not to mention things like his 1 centering around a pure flavor gimmick like finishers that most people don't really do in the fast pace of missions and the fact that his new 3 is just a chopped off part of his existing 4.
It's just really sad to see an awesome concept like Inaros with such rich potential for cool abilities and interactions in his lore and theme get relegated to a dust bunny filled with mildly annoying bugs, especially to know that the fact he got any attention at all means he's effectively shoved to the back of the line again for any potential future changes as well. I'm not going to ignore his survivability or act like his abilities don't have niche uses, but I still feel like those are wildly overshadowed by the potential of almost any other frame these days. I hope we can see a bit further iteration on these concepts in the near future.-
3
-
-
On 2024-01-02 at 3:34 PM, Overcomplicaeta said:
Hey Tenno!
Here with what might be an unpopular opinion: I hate Thermal Sunder.
To be clear, there's not really anything I actually hate about Warframe, but when I jump into Multiplayer, I'm expecting to participate in whatever mission or activity we're a part of. That's impossible with the way some players abuse Thermal Sunder. Now, mind you, only a few people I see using Thermal Sunder these days are actually Gauss players, but rather Titania with Thermal Sunder, blowing through mission after mission just spamming Thermal Sunder whilst everything disappears. The rest of the group is just left to jump around aimlessly, or try to move beyond the range of Thermal Sunder, and away from that particular team member. But, as any Tenno who has witnessed this will attest, it's a lot of work for very little reward, and often yields back-tracking to pick up things like Traces. On top of that, not only is it an obnoxious color screen when players choose bright colors for the ability, but it's also broken. If one person can kill everything in near-affinity radius, before you can even leave the starting area, it kills the fun and really just cheeses these levels.
My suggestion, ultimately, is to Nerf the Range/Damage of Thermal Sunder for Helminth. Leave Gauss' Thermal Sunder alone, but nerf or change the ability for other Warframes to have. I wouldn't complain about how other players play, but when I don't get to play because some jerk is spamming TS for the Focus or the Funsies, it kills my desire to play with others. If I could just exclude the "RUN AND DONE" players, I'd be happy to, but we can't. So, next best thing? *Shrug*
Let me know your opinions, or if you have any solutions outside of Nerfing! I'd love to hear any way I can to avoid the Run and Done'rs.Cheers,
Overcomplicaeta
It definitely shouldn't be nerfed. It may not be a popular opinion but you're the one queuing public matchmaking in a game that anymore is almost entirely about min-max'ing to deal with artificially pumped-up EHP numbers and grind. Naturally, people are going to use whatever is effective and nerfing that isn't going to solve that problem, it's just going to shift to another room nuke. All that being said, I feel like you have to be on some fairly low-level content if Thermal Sunder alone is dominating the mission, and if that's the case, then it REALLY doesn't make any sense to be advocating for a nerf as it's already just an okay ability in the upper tiers.
-
1
-
-
I think the changes are "good" if not just because Hydroid was SO bad, but I don't think they're gonna be enough and he'll likely wind up needing another "rework" later down the line if they expect him to actually see any amount of play beyond the honeymoon phase after this change and the diehards who have always played him regardless of viability. His kit is still a mix of 2 problems #1 being that his abilities are just worse versions of better abilities for the most part and #2 being he just got a lot of stuff centered around helping his CC aspects and we all know the old issue that "the best CC is dead" and to that end, he really didn't gain any actual damage output which is obviously still by far and away the king in Warframe. There's also the matter that his new "Plunder" ability is another armor-stripping ability that operates on a small, concentrated area, but they didn't give him any effective mass-grouping tools which they seem to have a habit of doing anymore, not to mention the fact that this ability seems like it's gonna be worthless vs Corpus/Infested units unless they misspoke. I would feel a lot better about it if they'd taken the tentacle swarm changes a little further and maybe had the tentacles drag all the enemies under for a second then pull them back up all grouped up on Hydroid's position so they'd be primed for his defense stripping, in addition to making it easier for him/his teammates to mass clear.
-
1
-
-
Please allow us to remove the Wolves from Voruna's hips as well if not just for consistency's sake.
-
1
-
-
Protovyre cosmetics seem really spotty on whether or not they progress. Killed tons of sentients during the New War quest with all the items equipped, 0/95. I've gotten tons of relics and aya and yet it only displays as 3/15. I literally JUST got 3 aya right now, went back to check, it still says 3/15. Am I missing something here? The only one that seems to work is the Ephemera tracking focus gain.
-
21 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:
You are mistaken, There is finite development time and finite time that is going to be allocated to rewards, especially rewards that are out of the usual scheme, as I have already said multiple times. DE have demonstrated a latitude with the individual artists that allows them to suggest work (Like adapting assets for rewards) as long as it fits in the time allocated. And I know that, given what was done and what I know of the times involved and what the dev themselves said earlier in this thread that the options were, what we got or some other, much similar from-scratch cosmetic, what you wanted was not an option.
We literally wanted what we got but the same on either gender. That's it. You're telling me that was wildly unrealistic and simply not an option? Clearly you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about then and are just BS'ing as you go.
22 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:Again, you were being rude and are creating a strawman to cover for yourself, it's pathetic.
No, that's actually just a factual statement. If the only form of criticism you can accept is carefully filtered and formatted to your exact specifications then that means you can't actually take criticism and are subsequently a bad creator because you have an inflated ego. Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true.
23 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:Again, false dichotomy. "this is insulting and I didn't say that, therefore.." I stand by my statement you were being insulting and ignorant, and you are doubling down and it's pathetic.
So you're simply admitting that you had absolutely no idea what the topic even was from the very beginning and you just saw people using words you don't like so you made assumptions and then tried to take some made up moral high ground to defend a stance nobody took to feel good about yourself. You're sitting here talking about "You just don't appreciate the work put in!" when the part that everybody here is actually upset about has absolutely nothing to do with the work aspect of it and the unrest stems simply and solely from a simple choice, not some grueling product of hours of effort, but just a choice, to release them as wildly different sets based on arbitrary factors.
26 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:As you have demonstrated you have no idea what balance is. Again with the strawman, I've offered no blind praise nor indicated it's necessary.
Yet you HAVE told us not to voice our criticisms and opinions because you find them "rude" despite the fact that they are and forever will be 100% valid. But no sure tell me more about how only what you perceive to be acceptable feedback should be allowed and how you're such a promoter of balance and fairness.
27 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:Ad hominem, it's like your entire playbook is fallacies 101.
Just keep throwing around words you don't know how to use to cover up for the fact that you literally have no idea what this post was even about from the very beginning. You saw people criticizing something, immediately identified with the responsible parties because of your "experience" and assumed that they were being attacked for their work so you took to your savior complex to come in and tell everyone how terrible they are for daring to utter one unsavory word against people so ingenious, hardworking, and selfless as these artists (which you just so happen to know the struggles of personally, but are completely an unbiased party obviously).
30 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:You literally said it was a "Miserable failure"
Literally nobody stated your quote anywhere in this thread.
You are quite clearly not interested in anything productive so I'm going to mute you now.
Yes, because that decision was. I think it's fairly obvious by how quickly this topic took off at the time and the fact that it even got the devs attention and direct response. Clearly that decision was notable enough to negatively impact the reception of the content to such a degree that DE felt the need to amend the situation. Again, simply because I used colorful wording doesn't make the criticism any less valid, which seems to be a concept that you can't grasp, so I'm more than happy to hear you've muted me and hope one day you'll be able to remove the rose-tinted glasses and see your victim complex for what it is.
-
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:
Which is nonsense, the armour is ok, it's fine, it's not ideal but it is better than the other option, which was no armour.
Except this is false. Because there's literally infinite options in between what we got, what we could have gotten, and not getting anything. There exists a perfectly reasonable degree of common sense to say "Should we make this reward wildly different for different players based on completely arbitrary factors just for the sake of ease?" and the answer is pretty obviously no, that's a terrible idea.
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:There is a difference between "I don't like this, I would much prefer to be able to choose, I'm not going to use this as a result", this is feedback, it's verifiable by DE (You know they can check the stats on use and acquisition right?) and the nonsense vitriol in this thread, like you here:
Again. Common sense does apply. So yes, passing a simple check of whether or not making the armors wildly different was a good idea? (No.) We can definitively state that this choice was a failure because it negatively impacted the reception of the content. Regardless of what percentage acquire or used the armor on launch the fact is there's clearly a very vocal group that did not do either specifically because of this choice giving us an easily definable loss in those statistics. Simply because you don't like the wording doesn't make it not true, nor any less valuable as feedback, and if your only capacity to accept feedback is by formally written documentation then that just means you'd be a bad designer.
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:This is just insulting and frankly ignorant, and I mean that literally, you are ignorant of the detail of the task.
No. I'm not. Because nowhere did I say "Man this work sucks, whoever made these is trash and bad at their job." I said "Whoever decided to let this go through as two wildly different pieces of content failed that decision." because regardless of the amount of work that may or may not have been required (which they even stated they would have to "slightly tweak the meshes", not exactly giving the impression it's some insurmountable effort) the decision to simply delay this completely spontaneous addition could have been made to alleviate the disparity. That was the failure.
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:Also I told no one to leave, no one to change their opinion. I simply stated that their understanding of what was easy and what was hard was mistaken from my position as a professional software dev for the last 25+ years and an amateur 3D modeller for the same period ( Going back to Imagine and Lightwave on the Amiga) I can, and have done all of the tasks I've commented on (Sculpt, retopo, rig, adobe texture, tint masks, normal maps) I'm nowhere near as good or as fast as DE but I know what takes time.
And yet again, nobody sat here and went "These are trash". The work and effort required to either individual set or the adaptation of either set to the opposite gender is irrelevant to what people we complaining about. I like both sets. I think both sets have their own respective value and I appreciate them independently. Doesn't change the fact that having them being wildly different based on something as arbitrary as operator gender was still a bad call. That call has absolutely nothing to do with assuming it's an easy task or not understanding the work that goes into making them. There was no timeframe set where people said "Oh they should have just completely remade the set the day after release!"
Also, yes, directly opposing someone's opinion as false is the same as telling them it needs to change.On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:It is also the outlook that causes game to continue to operate, to balance the desires of the players with the reality of the ROI
Keyword there being "balance". So no, sitting there belittling others' feedback in some blind praise of the simple fact that an attempt is not what helps the game operate. It's how you get games like Anthem where players get banned for walking a certain loot route.
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:False dichotomy, there exists a perfectly usable space to express your views without making ignorant guesses about what should have happened or outright asserting something is not acceptable or "failed miserably"
Except it's not a guess at all. It's common sense. If I tell you to run a race and if you get first I'll give you a nickle but if the other guy gets first I'll give him $5000 you're gonna be a little annoyed by that decision.
On 2021-05-27 at 2:19 PM, SilentMobius said:Is far from certain. In companies that rely on key individuals (Like Steve, Rebecca, Geoff, etc) for the aesthetic of their product, especially artistic endeavours. especially when they are financially independent and are mostly working due to love of the art they are producing, toxic criticism can torpedo the whole endeavour, resulting in key talent leaving.
I mean how would you feel if you went the extra mile to make something nice for players that was outside of the usual reward structure (How many operator cosmetics are non-plat?) because you love the game and could just about squeeze it in the time you had available because of asset reuse and the "feedback" you see is that it "failed miserably"?
You can appreciate the effort of something and still acknowledge that it missed its mark or "failed". If you can't, you're probably not as good of a creator as you think you are and are instead more engrossed in your rose-tinted view of your own works to accept the reality of the audience it's being made for. You keep trying to make it sound as if we've told these people that they're failures at their careers or that they have no talent or something like that when the reality is we voiced our discontent with one abstract decision because it devalued the effort required for the content it was locked behind. We literally said "Hey, this decision makes me not care about this part of the game you're trying to promote. You should change that if that's your intent."
-
1
-
-
On 2021-05-14 at 8:27 AM, CerealPlayer said:
Um, why is it “not ok”? I’m OK with it. You might not be. But that just seems to me to be a matter of personal preference.
I’ll never understand the sheer level of entitlement needed to be believe that designers (graphic designers in particular, but any designer in general) owe you design that is to your liking.
On 2021-05-14 at 8:32 AM, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:It does make it ok, the problem is that Male operator armor is the basic Isaah one while female got the high rank Dax look. Males should've gotten armor similar to Teshin or Umbra not the low rank Dax look
Well... There is also something to be said for the whole idea of being a "games as a service" which literally survive on updating the game in accordance with player feedback. So while we aren't "owed" anything by any means, it is by no means at all entitled to say "Hey, this choice seems really arbitrary and results in a really big letdown from this content. Can we get it changed?"
On 2021-05-15 at 10:39 PM, SilentMobius said:Non-platinum cosmetics are not some platonic ideal, they are a compromise between time needed to implement and value to players. This was the sweet spot of time needed to value to the majority of players.
The choice was between what we have and nothing, not what we have and the version you wanted.
This is the kind of outlook that causes games to spiral downward in terms of quality and upward in terms of price (not that I'm saying Warframe has but just speaking generally on the trend). It hurts a game and its community 100x more for people to just blindly accept whatever they're given even if they're not happy with it under some weird pretext of "Well devs could've just not given us anything." or "They tried their best, if you don't like it then shutup and leave." Like what other industry do we take this stance with where stuff can't be criticized simply because it was made? Do you see a horrible movie and go "I better not see any bad reviews about this! They could've just not made the movie and then what!?" Do you eat horrible food and say "Well the chef tried their hardest so I'll eat the whole thing anyway!" Like honestly what does encouraging poorly received decisions help?
Healthy criticism is fine. Even toxic criticism helps, albeit when it becomes more about personal attacks it gets diluted. At the end of the day, if a game operates on absolutely nothing but the designers' personal preferences/gut feelings and a bunch of yes-men who refuse to ever call anything out and censor anyone who tries, you're gonna wind up with a pile of crap that ultimately fails. Again, I don't think Warframe is to this point by any stretch, I'm just pointing out how the mentality is way worse than someone having an unoptimistic comment about something.
-
6 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:
For those Tenno that have already begun to walk The Steel Path, (looking at you @Ceadeus) you may have seen the new Bishamo Armor Set in Teshin’s offerings. We see that people would like to mix and match between the male and female Operator sets, and we totally want that to happen.
We’ll have to make slight adjustments to the mesh of each variant Armor set for it to function properly on each operator model, and to avoid clipping when swapping between the pieces. We’re currently heads down on Tennocon prep, but we will explore this sometime in the post-Tennocon future!
That's great to hear. I appreciate you actually taking the time to address this and I hope things go smoothly to get to that point so that I, and apparently others, have some more proper incentive to play this content 🙂
-
44 minutes ago, Xaero said:
Do you mean skins? It's more like armor sets since we equip the same thing but on different warframes. And no one would be happy if armor sets looked totally different depending on frame's gender or whatever.
As in genderlocking cosmetics, in the case of Warframes I was referring to the fact that you can't make Ember male or Rhino female or anything like that. But the Bishamo armor is COMPLETELY different between male and female.
-
13
-
-
- Popular Post
- Popular Post
So when's the patch that makes the Bishamo armor not just a completely different set based on gender? I don't know who was in charge of this particular design choice but they failed, miserably. Why is the female Bishamo armor 10x as detailed as the male counterpart? Why does the female Bishamo armor just have completely different pieces that are completely unrelated to gender traits like the radically different helmet?
It's one thing to do this with frames that have a preset gender, but with our operators that are supposed to be peak customization? I was so excited for the Bishamo armor and ready to grind my way to it, but now knowing that it's essentially genderlocked I've lost pretty much all interest.-
87
-
This is going to be the last post I'll bother to put here and I'm sure it will be the most controversial.
I've determined that many people simply don't have the foresight to see how things grow into these big problems. People see something that doesn't immediately try to bite them and assume that means that its good and should stay, when the reality of it is that its nothing more than placation so that when it does bite you, you won't even think about it and may very well even support it.
I'll leave the people who don't understand why battlepasses are one of the most toxic trends in gaming that absolutely will kill gaming as a hobby with this final little problem to work out: You people say that it's not a big deal because there's plenty of time to do Nightwave or other battlepasses or whatever, or to simply not buy into them because they're not "required". To that, I ask you, a year or two ago, how much content did you have to forcibly allot time for or lose it forever? Maybe 1 event sigil every few months? Or in the case of other games, how much content did you need to pay2play that also had its own time requirements or you again lose it forever? Probably not a whole lot. And yet, almost as if this is a growing problem, it becomes more and more normal for a game to release less content as base updates or even just as simple paid content, and instead the majority of their focus shifts to these methods to make you jump through hoops for less content at a higher price.
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, it's a growing problem, and as long as people like you continue to buy into it, it will only continue to grow. Maybe it's only $20 and a few hours a day now, but it will quickly reach a point where you're paying a full-game's price and need to devote the majority of your free time to it just to get mediocre at best rewards. You can say you wouldn't bother to pay it, but I'm sure there was a time you wouldn't have paid $20 for limited chance at a mediocre gun skin either, yet that's the norm now. Placation. But please, keep fighting us trying to break the trend for your right to be exploited.-
5
-
Inaros "Rework" Lackluster
in General Discussion
Posted
^ Literally implying you're using Ash as your reference for what a "nuker" playstyle would be and that Ash is a valid entry in this discussion of CC vs nuking, when he's not. I have all the frames too, which is precisely why I would never bother to bring up Ash in reference to nuking.
Again, literally implies there were enemies left alive that the nuker did not handle themselves to be pawned off to other players, but any good nuker can handle the entire map before they present any real threat to any player who isn't actively putting themselves in harm's way and refusing to defend themselves. So again, your argument is still operating on an inefficient nuke player to begin with and says nothing about the playstyle itself.
It's not. At all. Granted you can't do it just standing still in one spot, but you can absolutely keep the entire map locked down with just mediocre movement skills and a mediocre build. If you really think that sounds insane it sounds like you need to work on your builds because they don't seem to be very good.
Yes, because it's not built around "control" as in CC, it's built around controlling the points, which is best done by no enemies being alive to contest it to begin with. IE: Nuking. Which also will provide them more affinity and resources, which newer players will need as the main loop of Warframe is the grind, while CC'ing will not provide anything.
I never said past round 1, I said once things start to present a challenge, which if you have an actually effective nuker, you can easily stay for a long time with zero risk of dying or ever losing a control point. I mentioned leaving in reference to your comment about fighting level 300 or 500 or whatever enemies and how there's no real point in doing that because you're going to get better returns just resetting and going again anyway.
The irony of talking about a "waste of time" when that is literally the playstyle you're describing. You are literally sat here saying it is better to play an ineffective, completely passive, unrewarding playstyle that completes the mission SLOWER because it will also take longer to clear the enemies at the end of the round, all because you don't know how to play a nuke frame apparently. I'm not denying that you can do the things you're claiming, what I'm denying is that it is actually beneficial. Every "detriment" you've described about using a nuke frame stems from the assumption that it is being played poorly, and not with any actual fault in the concept itself. Your entire argument quite literally boils down to "When the nuker fails to do their job adequately then new players might not have a good build either and you could fail".