AzulMage
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Posts posted by AzulMage
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5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:
I very much agree with the criticism. Hydroid is a frame whose kit has aged poorly ever since Parkour 2.0 became a thing, and who struggles to shine in most situations. His only real niche is Pilfering Swarm, and he's otherwise outclassed by many other frames at what he's meant to do best. His rework improved him, but I think failed to meaningfully overhaul his gameplay as I think it needed to. The OP lists the frame's problems very well, and I think at his core Hydroid's three main problems are the following:
- Half his kit is a terrible fit for the game's movement system, causing what should be a literally fluid frame to have one of the clunkiest movesets in the roster.
- Most of his kit scales really poorly, is seriously outperformed by competitors, or is outright counterproductive, particularly when it comes to his ragdoll effects.
- There's a general lack of identity in his kit, as his contributions are ironically fairly diluted.
With this in mind, I'm also of the opinion that he needs more drastic mechanical changes than his previous rework: turning into water should probably stay in some form, but currently his 2 is a clunkier bullet jump, and his 3 works by making him immobile, which arguably shouldn't happen in a game like Warframe. Off the top of my head, stuff that could probably help:
- Passive should be replaced by something different entirely. For example, dodge rolling could turn Hydroid into water, rendering him untargetable for a duration, which would end the moment he attacks (but wouldn't prevent him from moving or attacking normally).
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1 should probably only drop one shot at the target, but the shot should deal more damage, strip armor as a baseline, and scale with the enemy's level, while stunning enemies hit instead of knocking them down.
- Augment should change in some form. Making affected enemies more vulnerable to melee damage could work towards a pirate theme, for example.
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2 should send out a wave, and in order to keep the functionality, perhaps holding the ability would have Hydroid travel along with it. Perhaps also have reactivating the ability teleport Hydroid to the wave's location.
- Augment could stay the same.
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3 should be a deployable water trap that Hydroid (and maybe allies) could press the use button to enter or exit at will.
- Augment could stay the same.
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4 should probably not throw enemies at random, but instead reach out a lot farther, pin enemies to the surface the tentacles are springing from, and maybe debuff them in a manner that makes them easier to kill. There'd be natural synergy with the 3 in this manner in that the tentacles would be pulling enemies into the trap if cast onto one.
- Augment technically could stay, but I'm personally not at all a fan of loot-enhancing effects, as I feel they shouldn't exist in a game that largely encourages the farming of loot. In line with the above, I'd probably go with something that'd provide utility or survivability, e.g. giving Hydroid bonus health and regen based on the number of enemies captured or the like.
Basically, instead of Hydroid being forced into an animation or immobility, allow Hydroid to deploy the ability and then choose to enter it as desired. Instead of ragdolling enemies, he could have access to more reliable stuns, and scaling damage on his 1 means he'd always have some reliable form of ability-based damage, even if he wouldn't be the best at it. He'd still have largely access to the same abilities as now, but would have more agency and effectiveness overall.
I actually love these changes. I main Hydroid and this would fix many issues I see with him while preserving the positives of his current kit
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I wonder if there is an easier way to make the devs aware of this. I don't think they often look at this section of the forums. While they are at it, he needs a bit of a rework anyway
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I've noticed this also. It's strange since they changed Impact quickly after the last mainline so that it would not ragdoll as it's an unpopular effect. So not sure why this ability still does it. Perhaps it's a bug?
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Hildryn is also unique because unlike other frames, she also has a shield gate between overshields and regular shields. Not sure if that is mentioned in the tabs. Basically two shield gates.
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Might be a silly question but are there shield gates between overshields and regular shields or is that just something only Hildryn gets as part of her passive?
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2 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:
It only takes 1.67 seconds to charge it with Natural Talent, that's really not that long. Warframe isn't so fast paced that a second delay or a 1.67 charge time is a serious issue. Those are quirks, not weaknesses. Obviously my five Forma and fully modded weapons deal more damage than my cheap CC ability, but it deals enough damage that you can seriously injure or even outright kill light enemies like Chargers, Butchers, or Crewman without even really trying to even against end game content. That's pretty potent, especially in comparison to a lot of other frames and their utility powers.
Honestly, it sounds like you stick with Hydroid because of the sunk cost fallacy and that you want him to be something radically different than what he is, whether that's what he should be or not (and this is true for a lot of people in a lot of rework threads). Like back when Volt got his rework the official feedback thread was flooded with people suggesting 'improvements' to him that involved complete reworks to Shock and Overload/Discharge which had little resemblance to what he already had. I get it can be frustrating to not have something live up to your thematic fantasy, and sometimes those ideas can be helpful, like when a frame has an ability like Mesa's 1 or Trinity's 1 or Excalibur's old 3 which are dead in the water. But Hydroid's not in that bad of a spot. He doesn't need radical changes and totally new powers. It's not necessarily wrong to talk about those ideas, but they're not doing anyone who is a fan of what's already there any favors, and they aren't likely to get implemented. And the one ability they probably could do that for, Tentacle Swarm, they won't because its always been tied to his identity.
That's kind of why I'm in the thread. It's been sitting on the front page for awhile, and most of it reads, to me, like a collection of people who either do not play Hydroid or who play Hydroid but would much rather be playing something that isn't Hydroid but that still has Hydroid's name and water theme attached.
Not at all. I see what he has to offer but think he is a few tweaks from being a solid frame. Except for his 2 I actually like his abilities. That doesn't mean I can't see where they are at fault and there are definitely spots there. I don't think love for something means you can't criticize or see where improvement is necessary. Hell, I'm advocating for Hydroid to stay a CC frame in a game that continues to make CC less viable with every new enemy introduced.
This a post about changes to Hydroid so of course I would only discuss what I do not like about him. Overall every other frame (except Hildryn) is boring to me. I do think it's interesting that you have such a distaste for tentacle swarm while I enjoy it outside of the things I mentioned. To me, that ability defines him more than his 1 or 2 for me, yet you clearly prefer those. I wouldn't accuse you of disliking him as a whole just because you think his 4 needs to be replaced and change what in my mind creates his identity. If I didn't care about Hydroid overall I would not be putting this energy into a post the devs will certainly not look at or care to take suggestions from.
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2 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:
The cast time on it is one handed and actually pretty brief. The 1 second delay is the cast animation plus the activation delay. It's not something that hurts its function, nor is it unique to Hydroid. Most persistent / deployed CC abilities have a delay. It could be reduced without hurting him, but its presence isn't making him worse. Again, I'm not saying that there aren't things that could change with it, but that there's nothing that actually needs to. The fact that it has a bit of a delay isn't what makes him a lackluster choice for a squad slot.
I'm not sure what your issue with the charge feature is. If you don't want to use it you don't have to. It's sometimes nice to have an instance last twice as long, and there's plenty of opportunities to charge it when you're recharging shields or healing during Undertow.
It does 750 to 3000 damage, or 3000 to 12000 damage on a charge, over its duration if you assume they get hit by at least one salvo per second. Miasma does 7200. I'm honestly not sure why you think it doesn't deal damage. Prior to the Corrosive changes I was killing level 120 Bombards with a handful of charged casts and my build only has 100% Strength and 150% Duration. It's nothing to write home about, but it's sure as hell not something to balk at, either.
Those things occur pretty frequently, though. And it's useful for moving around inside of Undertow, too You can also use it to group enemies into a corner so you can melee them or back up and AoE them. It's also quite useful for separating an Ancient Healer from a group of enemies, or for extending your invulnerability when exiting Undertow when an Ancient Healer or a Nullifier or something is around. Also, if you weren't aware, there's a useful animation cancel you can do with Tidal Surge and Undertow where you'll perform a normal Tidal Surge at half speed. You activate Undertow, then use Tidal Surge, then immediately after that you deactivate Undertow. The timing is pretty tight. Maybe it's not an ability that you use all that much, but that's not the same thing as not useful, you know?
Thankfully I don't think they'll ever get rid of Undertow. Unfortunately, I don't think they'll rework Tentacle Swarm much, either. They seem to like it too much. I agree there should be room for fun powers like Pulverize or Switch Teleport, but this, IDK. I'm at the point where I just want it to spit out health orbs or give me armor or cause puncture procs or make enemies T-pose or just more than quintuple its damage. I want it to do something tangible other than make it harder to aim.
My issue with the charge feature is that it makes a slow ability slower. It's not that I don't want to use it, I want the charged version (more powerful, larger radius, etc) to just be the only version of the ability and be based off of tap. Not using it is not a solution as I find that version the only one worth using despite the wait. And 1 second for the animation is a big deal in a fast paced game. "A handful of charged casts" is way too much time. Think about how long it takes to charge and then the animation. At that point use your weapons and you deal way more damage at a much faster rate. Granted, the ability is CC not damage, I only mentioned the damage because you wrote about it being good and it definitely is not. Also, a CC ability should not have to be cast more than once to do its job effectively, which is why I do not agree with casting it multiple times to lockdown just ONE spot as opposed to doing multiple casts to properly lockdown multiple spots. Essentially, it is CC ability that is lacking in CC capabilities since it is slow, cumbersome, and requires more than one cast to be effective in any of it's jobs. It can use many improvements.
"Not the same thing as not useful" just means there is a niche time it can be used but otherwise... meh.
Look, Hydroid is still my main but I can't honestly say that any of his abilities are good as they are. At best they are mediocre. At worse, they are his 2. I stick with him because I have already invested so much into the frame and I am a sucker for water elementals in all media even when they are lackluster.
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50 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:
I don't really want to lose any of Hydroid's abilities. I just want him to be better. His biggest issue is that he's basically stuck with three abilities because Tentacle Swarm is only really useful for its augment which isn't actually all that useful.
Tempest Barrage doesn't need anything done to it. It's one of the best 1s in the game, it fits his theme, it does its job. It has a great augment, and it even puts out pretty impressive damage. Its charge feature is actually useful, too. Obviously they should fix the bug it currently has that makes enemies ragdoll and bounce around all over the place.
Tidal Surge could really use a shift to work more like Mach Rush so that you can actually use it on smaller tilesets without being forced to smash into a wall or get stuck on some invisible pixel of level geometry for a full second. A hold paradigm also makes it less stop and go when you're traveling long distances. I've seen people suggest a tap/hold paradigm where a tap sends out the wave at enemies and a hold has Hydroid become the wave, as he does now, and I wouldn't be opposed to that, either.
Undertow needs to let you reload in it. You can currently finish a reload if you've started an automatic one after emptying your magazine, but if you initiate a manual reload and then use Undertow it cancels it, which is a frustrating inconsistency. Maybe it could move 15-30% faster, but it honestly doesn't need to. You can just use Tidal Surge for that. In certain spots that can be a little clunky, but if you improve Tidal Surge's cast paradigm you fix that automatically. Tidal Surge also needs to quit dropping enemies from Undertow.
Tentacle Swarm needs some heavy work. Either a large scale rework and a massive change to how the ability functions or it needs a band-aid solution like making it hold enemies in T-pose like Bastille, because at least then you can score headshots which makes it functionally distinct from his other CC effects.
I disagree that his 1 doesn't need any changes. It needs shortened cast time for sure. Waiting for the ability to activate 1 second after pressing the button is crazy. I would also remove the charge feature entirely as that adds another layer of slowness to his kit and instead make the tap cast equivalent to his current 1 cast. Also, damage is not in any way good on it especially on higher levels. The augment does improve it for sure but there are better ways to strip armor and use corrosive so I think it's worth adjusting it in some way
I would argue his 2 is more useless than his 4. I barely ever see a reason to use it except for moving in his 3 or just moving fast in a straight line when I want to get to extraction. I do like your tap and hold thing, seeing as hold would be for movement ability, that would be one case where holding for an ability would be fine while tapping adds an offensive/CC component. Your suggested changes would really make moveme feel better.
Yes to tidal surge not dropping enemies when in undertow. And I do think it needs to move faster if they would keep it in a theoretical rework (so many people hate his 3 that maybe they would get rid of it). Personally I like his 3 and just think it needs some adjustments though if they replaced it with something different, as long as it worked well I wouldn't mind.
His 4.... Well I like it more than his 2. It's just too RNG based, flails enemies so you can't even shoot them, gets worse with range mods since you can't control number of tentacles. But I do enjoy using it for it's true damage especially off his undertow for double damage. It, like his 2, needs a lot of work.
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24 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:
The ability to deploy Undertow as a trap is something that's been suggested ad nauseum over the years and it hasn't ever been a good suggestion. Shooting at Undertow isn't fun. You can't score headshots, it doesn't move, it doesn't fight, it doesn't have damage animations. The reason Hydroid's team can shoot at Undertow is to prevent him from griefing in Defense missions. At best implementing that would just recreate the old Bastille / Vortex problem. We already have Tempest Barrage to lock down an area. Why do we need another redundant ability, especially when he already has that problem currently with 1 and 4?
I suppose you are right. As Tempest Barrage currently stands, I still think it is to0 RNG based to truly call it a lock down or true CC ability, but I do think your proposed changes can help with that
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1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:
I'm just thinking of how he gets by in spy as compared to now. Sometimes, you have to wait for the AI to move, and that's an indeterminate amount of time. If it can satisfy that, then it might be fine, but I really can't be sure. Either way, I appreciate you keeping Hydroid in the discussion for revision.
If he can move faster as per the change OP wants, he would be better in spy. As it stands, yes puddle can be used for stealth and spy but very slowly and just not as efficienctly as frames that were actually made with stealth in mind.
For my take, I'm still of the mind that the best option is to make puddles deployable without him being in it but he has the option to go into it which would effectively make it act like it does now while he is inside it. When he is not, it's good non-RNG based crowd control with damage potential (plus shooting into your own puddle). Especially if he can have more than 1 puddle active. Maybe even teleport between puddles?
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I've been asking this almost every devstream so going to keep trying lol
It was mentioned before that you guys are aware of how CC is becoming less and less useful and this is something that the team is looking to address. Newer content still discourages CC as enemies are immune to it. What steps are going to be taken? Will enemies be more susceptible to it/need to be CC'ed to be defeated (let's say, because damage alone would not be efficient in killing) or will CC frames be reworked to focus more on damage rather than CC?
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If tentacle swarm is kept in a hypothetical rework there are definitely many changes that need to be made to it:
1) Decrease cast time, remove charge mechanic, and make it cast instantly instead of the time delay that gets Hydroid killed unless he is in his puddle
2) Currently, if you invest in power strength the initial hit from tentacle swarm launches all enemies away which can be annoying when they go far away. This should just be removed and grab enemies from the get go.
3) Enemies it grabs onto get flailed around so hard it difficult to aim at them. They should be held in place and damage can be done from tentacles constructing victims rather than whipping them
4) There is a cap on number of tentacles that cannot be increased. Therefore adding range to this reduces it's potency since there will be gaps where enemies can walk straight through. This is compounded by the already RNG nature of where tentacles appear. Honestly, the problem with them increasing how many are made is likely due to issues if multiple Hydroids each have an instance of this ability up and how it would affect how the game runs. I'm not to sure what could be done other than it having a set max range that more evenly distributes tentacles
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@doominator10: Honestly, I would not want him to have ANY charging abilities if he was reworked. Most of the time, I really only want to the charged version of abilities. He already has very long cast to ability activation times and then adding the addition of the charge just means it takes forever to get the desired effect. Hell, charging abilities often means you will die before it goes off. So yeah, no charged abilities and make cast times instant. If Hydroid's abilities were OP, I would understand the casts not being instant but they are underpowered if anything.
What I like about @FoxFX's changes is that they are good, not OP, and stick with the CC focused frame he is supposed to be while adding (potential) damage and utility. If changes like this were actually integrated I would still want the removal of charged abilities and the huge lag between casting and activation of abilities.
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So with all frames getting shield gating, will there be tweaks made to Hildryn so she still effectively has a passive outside of using shields for energy? Perhaps her shield gate timing lasts longer than the new standard?
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I just wonder if they will work on him at all. DE seems overwhelmed now with liches and railjack. I remember after the initial ember and vauban reworks, they made a few changes on a later update promising there would be more updates for them moving forward. We haven't seen that at all and it's seems they forgot due to other concerns.
Plus, Hydroid gets little love and it seems like you have to really fight tooth and nail for them to look at any frame's kit. Maybe we can get lucky and they look at Hydroid when it's deluxe comes out. But I feel even if they do, they will add changes that do little if anything to actually improve him.
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Dude as a Hydroid main I would love all of this. A lot of reworks for him want to make him damage dealing over CC, which makes sense considering DE wants to make all new enemies immune to CC. But I actually would love him to stay a CC frame and this rework accomplishes that while giving him some damage and utility options and most importantly, no randomness.
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2 hours ago, Graive said:
Weird quoting myself but I thought more on this. I think just making damage of the tentacles scale with time rather than giving a susceptibility boost is better. This way it actually hurts status immune enemies as well. Like my initial susceptibility idea, it also wouldn't require an icon being needed for any kind of buff.
True. It seems like a good change. I think a lot of people are worried that all reworks will simply consist of damage buffs now which is to some extent needed. Hydroid's current issue is that he is a CC frame (therefore damage was never his reason for being) that is inconsistent in his ability to CC since enemies can literally walk through his 1 and 4 without getting caught in it and since his current 3 has no lure effect, they won't get caught in that too. Basically inconsistent RNG based CC in a game that already discourages good CC in favor of killing.
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2 hours ago, Graive said:
Adding your ideas on his 2 and 3 to the post, they just make sense and fit the theme of this post perfectly.
Ideally I'd make his 2 a toggle-able ability to give it more maneuverability, but I feel like that would likely warrant an animation change (which would be more time consuming to implement). I feel like most changes to his 4 would also need animation changes, and it's the only reason I'm not adding them above.
I suppose so. I just think in it's current state the CC isn't the greatest. An idea that has been thrown around on other Hydroid threads that I think is great and would require little effort on DE's part would be the Kraken head staying out during the ability. Then, if Hydroid and/or teammates shoot the head, all enemies caught take extra damage based off damage done to the head. Would also be cool if tentacles that don't currently have an enemy grabbed could block bullets shot by enemies as an added defense measure
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21 hours ago, Graive said:
I wanted to make some change suggestions that I figure would be easy to implement (by reusing former code) on DEs part. I didn't want to call this a rework because I love Hydroid and want him to still keep his Hydroid-y feel while making sure players could do more than puddle to stay safe.The goal was to speed up his game-play a little by reducing time to kill, and add overall earned viability.
First and foremost, half all cast times, and remove charge mechanics. Change his passive, and keep the same abilities, adding additional effects.
-Passive - increases Hydroid's damage by 25% when enemies are knocked down or ragdolled. All his abilities cause knockdown so it just makes sense.1 - 30% more barrage instances with radius scaling based on power range. Optional: Make his current augment innate. His new augment doubles the water missiles and gives the party a gas damage buff when held (like all the other elemental based warframes).
2 - Increase Tidal Surge movement speed. Similar to Rhino's Ironclad Charge, Tidal Surge now grants a stackable buff based on # of enemies hit (15% damage resistance up to 90%). The timer scales on duration (10s base). The timer refreshes when new enemies are hit with Tidal Surge but the buff % resets only after the timer has expired.
3 - Puddle now submerges your companion as well. Similar to Harrow's Covenant, Hydroid and his companion receive three seconds of invincibility upon exiting puddle, after which Hydroid receives two buffs that scale dependent on damage absorbed while invincible and power strength (1.50% per 100 damage points prevented) : a Health regen buff based on enemy kills (5% of health per kill at base up to a maximum of 40%) and Critical damage buff (25% critical damage at base up to a maximum of 200%). These buffs have a timer which is dependent on Duration (15s base). Optional: Make his augment also regen health on enemy kill for allies and companions.
4 - Add a final burst of damage when the ability finishes.Nice changes. I would add WAY more maneuverability for his 2 especially with the added functionality you added. For his 3, I would love if it had an aggro/lure effect so enemies more willingly go into the puddle without having to aim and drag them in. That change makes it better CC (Hydroid's current MO) and more potential for damage. Lastly, his 4 needs to not launch enemies to the stratosphere on initial cast, not flail enemies around wildly (grab them in place so Hydroid and teammates can actually aim and shoot at them), and also find a way to increase number of tentacles not just area of effect range.
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All good. We are all just spit balling anyway. Random puddles from passive do seem like a funny ability so I'm all for that lol
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8 hours ago, kapn655321 said:
@NSWSantCruz
Hey, I think we worked on some ideas in a previous thread.
If I'm not mistaken, my idea for Pirate Mode's 2, Tentacle Arm attack mode, was inspired through your suggestions. 😃
As well as the multishot on Pirate Mode grapeshot, as you wanted a far more hostile and aggro Hydroid.
This maintains both ideas, taking them to new places with the suggestions and concerns of others.
To OP, I wish I could get into your Idea for your 3, as it does have merit..
But I absolutely adore Undertow. Cannot imagine losing that ability. Hope you understand!Hey, we did before. I think someone else wanted a more aggressive one. I just wanted a less random one with tighter CC. That's why we disagreed with your initial first ability as I much prefer guaranteed knockdown over a chance at it. His current 1 and 4 already have the issue of not always hitting something since enemies can walk right between the attacks.
I still don't think randomness should be a feature of a CC frame especially. Banshee would make for a better stealth frame with the ability you suggested as her kit is all about being quiet and taking enemies out from the start.
My actual suggestions were to change 2 as I mentioned above or change it to a wave that extends in a circle around Hydroid. Tapping it makes the wave crash away from him knocking down all enemies around him and dealing some damage. Holding it brings enemies towards him which synergizes with his 3 to bring enemies into his undertow.
I suppose in that way, Hydroid is more aggressive but more of an aggressive CC
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Hydroid main here. Really like your suggestions.
I do like the changes you suggested for his 1. His 1 does not currently track at all, it is definitely random and there have been many times that enemies simply walk through the cast. I don't think the long charge time it currently has balances out the fact that multiple can be casts. Also, the tike between casting and activation should be shortened. I definitely agree with innate corrosion because at higher levels this ability is almost useless without the augment anyway. Augments should be an extra effect that you may want situationally. Not a requirement.
For his 2, I always wanted this ability to be a wave thrown out rather than him becoming wave. Your current idea of having both would satisfy those that currently like the ability and those like me that never touch this ability (it just doesn't appeal to me and I have yet to find a use for it with my play style) that want something more offensive/CC orientated.
His 3, interesting idea. It does work a bit better than his current 3 as it at least keeps him from being stationary in a game that is about movement. I actually do very much like undertow but it has so many drawbacks that I can see why everyone wants to get rid of it. It has great team synergy in that if teammates shoot into it, all enemies in take 50% of their primary damage. Problem is, even after I TELL my teammates this they don't do it. The scaling damage is great too. I always just wanted it to become an ability where he has normal walk and spring speed while in this form, can move around swallowing all enemies into the watery abyss, and his 2 just allows for even faster movement. This would all make the high energy cost of everything more worth it as you can easily drown a large group of enemies and keep from being stationary. Also, his tentacle swarm (if kept) if used from his 3 should instead grab all nearby enemies and draw them into undertow.
His 4. Interesting idea. An exalted weapon is always a boon for a frame to actually have a strong ability. I think your idea sounds a bit OP for a frame that's mainly supposed to be CC. Maybe a CC component could be integrated instead of more DPS. That or keep tentacle swarm but have it not whip enemies like crazy so you can't shoot them. Many posts have suggested that shooting the kraken head should be used to deal damage to all enemies grabbed. That would be great
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5 hours ago, (NSW)cAtbEaNz said:
You like the smell of your own farts dont you?
Yeah dude. You should try them sometime. Maybe you'd lighten up. Also, thought you were done a few pages back
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11 hours ago, Ekemeister said:
Puddle Boy needs the Pablo Treatment.
And the farm-mod stacking nerf should be reverted. This nerf was a reaction to a much deeper problem with Warframe's Game Design.
Want less players to farm the crap put of warframe?
Give players something that will cause them to reciprocate a desired response.
Want players to not rush objectives and skip everything?
Again it goes back down to:
Giving <---> Reciprocation.
Make content that provokes/rewards thought, planning, observation, experimentation, and adaptation.
So many people want to love Warframe, that DE doesn't even have to wait for community members to ask. DE can just build it, and players would come.
The current content only gives rewards for chores completed, enemy kills, and/or speed-running. Thus the reciprocated player response is.... (take a guess).
Farm mod nerf was reverted a few updates ago. But agree that he needs Pablo
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Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework
in Developer Workshops
Posted
Pablo mentioned during the stream that if an enemy enters the area of effect of Tentacle Swarm, a tentacle will automatically move to it and grab it. So I think this has been addressed. It just wasn't detailed in these notes