(PSN)Lord_Silvador
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Posts posted by (PSN)Lord_Silvador
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I've tried Google. I've tried the Wiki. Heck, I've even tried experimenting with the game myself. But I am at a loss. Either the answer I'm looking for isn't explained anywhere, or it is just widely assumed to be known and I don't know it.
Just how exactly does armour work in conjunction with health and robotics? Shields are fine. Eliminate the blue bar before you can start chipping away at the red bar. But armour continues to baffle me. With armour there is no red bar, only a yellow one. I've seen some explanations mention that armour can be "stripped" to reveal the red bar, but either this isn't happening the way I think it happens, or I've not had it happen for me, as of yet. Most articles I've looked at say armour reduces damage. OK. That makes sense. But then looking at the codex and seeing armour and health/robotics having two entirely different sets of resistances just raises more questions. Does the damage types that effect health/robotics bleed through the yellow armour layer to an unseen red layer? Or is the red health bar only affectable when the yellow bar is "stripped"? This second instance would make sense where Grineer are concerned, since they typically have more armour than health. But then Bursas make this confusing by having way more robotics than armour. I've yet to actually get anywhere near killing a Bursa, so the question raises in my mind, when the yellow armour bar is depleted to zero, is it then replaced with a red bar, acting in the same manner shields do? But wait, if they did that, why would the red bar be hidden? If the Bursa's armour is "stripped" does it's substantially higher health actually make it tougher?!
My mind is just going in circles trying to make sense of the relationship between armour and health/robotics. If the red health bar can only be affected by a mod proc that "strips away" the yellow armour bar, is there even any reason to bother about the red health bar? Should I just forget it and focus on the yellow armour? If there is damage bleed-through, do I mod for health/robotics or armour when the enemy has more health/robotics than they do armour? And if there is bleed-through, does the enemy still die when their armour is depleted to zero? Or is it replaced with a red health bar?
I'm so confused! x_x
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Currently, the only shotgun weapon I have in Warframe is the Strun. And my statement about shotguns only getting me killed isn't limited to Warframe. I said above that I main Rhino because I'm not good at avoiding damage. I've been playing shooter style games for a decent amount of time and in that time I've learned where my limitations lie. And immediately in front (or just in close range) of the thing I'm trying to kill is not within that line. I do a whole lot better at range, the longer, the better. Shotguns put me right up in the thick of damage and that more often than not results in me getting myself killed faster than normal.
As for this thread going for 8 pages, I'd say it's because, for the most part, it has been a relatively civil discussion on what the Bursas are or are not, whether it be difficult, fun, or well/poorly designed.
Also, I do appreciate the advice given in the thread.
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The reason I had the weapons I had was because, as I stated previously, the Gorgon Wraith I am leveling up and modding to be my anti-corpus weapon. As of yet, I don't have access to a better, inherently anti-corpus weapon that isn't a shotgun. Shotguns just get me killed. The Twin Wraith Vipers I have been using for... quite a while, now. I leveled and modded them for a specific boss from a few updates back and have not changed them to something more suited because, even though they are not specifically anti-corpus in general, they still eat through Corpus mobs like crazy on the levels I am at. The last time I played, Bursas did not exist, so they were not accounted for in my weapon loadouts. Thus I have not had the time to level and mod any weapons to specifically counter Bursas. Additionally, I've not had the chance to scan them yet so as to see what their weaknesses are.
Yeah, yeah, "look it up on google". If we all just went straight to Google for all the answers, what the hell is the point of even having the codex and the information it provides?
That being said, I have been to google. I have looked for strategies, clues and advice for fighting Bursas. I've been beating my head against this proverbial brick wall for almost a week. So don't keep assuming that I am just throwing in the towel after a single loss as many of you seem to be believing I am. I have tried, repeatedly, with what I have at my disposal, and still I cannot kill these things without purging my entire reserves of ammo and revives.
Getting behind them wasn't hard to figure out. Doing so was, especially when they're either spamming knock-downs, rockets, or some other OP garbage at me while I try to stay alive. Shooting their head, just above their shielding, was my second thought. But as with shooting them behind, damage inflicted was minimal and/or pointless for the amount of damage inflicted upon me. I'm not just some noob crying because he can't "beat a hard mob". I legitimately believe these things to be, as some have said above, disproportionate to their place of spawn. They don't just need another nerf, but a complete and total rethink of design.
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So, I decided to do a little "research" for you people. Here are my findings...
Using my Rhino, I went into a Corpus mission with the express purpose of finding and testing a Bursa. The mission was Naiad, Neptune 26-28. I took with me my Gorgon Wraith (which I'm trying to level up as my anti-Corpus weapon) which currently has listed 36.5 Magnetic damage and 28.7 Impact, plus negligible amounts of slash and puncture. I also had my Wraith Twin Vipers, with 54 Radiation and 43.2 Impact, also negligible Slash and Puncture.
My experience was thus...
While these weapons were more than a match for any other enemy on the map, taking them down in 1-2 seconds, 3-5 for some of the stronger things like the Oxium Osprey (not counting dodge time to avoid it suiciding), the Bursas took quite a lot more.
The first Bursa to spawn was a Drover. I did my best to get behind it and at one point spent a good 5-7 seconds facing only its side as its turn rate allowed it to keep that side facing me while I tried to run around behind it. I wasn't more than 2-4 feet away and I was not sprinting. At other times, particularly after initiating its ground pound attack, it would spin to face me no matter what direction I was and it did so almost instantly. My Rhino's Stomp was able to get it into the air and at that point I unloaded into its back. The damage it took was minimal. I put almost an entire clip in it before the stomp wore off and all I had achieved was perhaps 1/20 of its total health in damage to it. I continued to try and fire into its back, using both sliding, jumping and running tactics to get behind it, and stomps when I had the energy. Even from behind, with both weapons, I barely scratched it.
Eventually an Isolator turned up and I spent more time on the ground than shooting it. I did actually get the Isolator's health down to over half, but not before using at least two lives and the ENTIRITY of my Wraith Twin Vipers ammo reserves to do so. It turn had a turn radius enough to not allow me to easily run behind it with my Rhino, and it spammed its ground pound ability almost continuously.
So, you guys tell me. Does that sound like an easy fight? I get that these things are meant to be tough, and not go down easily. But there's a point where they seem like they should be on a much higher difficulty level than where they are. If I was able to kill every other Corpus Enemy with relative ease, should I not be able to do at least significant damage to a Bursa if I can get behind it?
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I also stated that I have avoided using Loki (since getting my second frame) due to lacking the skill to use its abilities effectively.
I doubt I'll have miraculously improved while not playing it.
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1 minute ago, trace_phage said:
If I can't kill a Bursa with my loadout I just avoid them, they're never part of the mission objective
You know, it's funny, because just before coming here, I had a green evacuation point on my map for my extermination mission, and then a Bursa spawned and it went away.
Hmm, now I wonder what that could mean?
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1 minute ago, Teloch said:
Asking and or demanding implies the expectation of a result. Since I (highly) doubt DE will give a flying poopstick about my distaste of this enemy, I expect no such results. However, if I did not hope for some chance of change or improvement, I wouldn't even be here. Ergo, those count as suggestions, however vague they may be.
AND DON'T ASK ME TO PROVIDE SUGGESTIONS! We've covered that part of this at least three times now. A fourth time won't change the outcome.
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1 minute ago, Teloch said:
Two things:
1) Do you ask the dev team to heed to YOUR caprices?
1.5) You'd better don't read the second point if your psyche is as weak as your knack
1.9) You've been warned
2) Many people enjoy enemies like bursas, juggernauts, and maniacs. Not everyone likes to sweep whole battalions of lancer-type enemies, but you don't give a damn about those "elitists" and "P2Winners" amusement, right?1) No, I don't "ask the dev team to heed to MY caprices?" as you so put it.
1.5) Nor to I demand them to.
2) As stated already, I am voicing my displeasure because I have the right to. This is feedback. My feedback to the devs that I do not enjoy fighting these enemies as they currently are.
3) I'm all for a tough/challenging opponent. But there is a difference between tough and challenging, and nigh on impossible.
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2 minutes ago, Popstupid said:
Not really. There's also Corrupted and also. Grineer and Infested make up more than half of the star chart so I have no idea where you got that. And yes, I have leveled a weapon meant for killing Corpus on Grineer and Infestation and was SUCCESSFUL. I'll even be nice to name them : Jat Kitaag, Bo Prime, Vaykor Marelok, Fragor Prime, Vectis, Grakata, Gorgon, Strun, Twin Wraith Vipers, and the Furax Wrath. Get this: I WAS SUCCESSFUL and it was "good."
And at what point in the game did you GET half of those weapons? I doubt it was at any point where you needed to rely primarily on them to kill what faced you. As for Corrupted, just how far do you expect me to get in the Void if I can't kill one of these stupid fricking Bursas? I've been to the Void. There is a reason I avoid the Void. While it is challenging and not impossible (at the lower tiers) for me, it isn't a viable option currently. I still have 90% of Neptune locked, for crying out load. dafuq can I can in the Void?
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Just now, ShadowmistProject said:
Oh shame poor you. Walk to the back of the bursa and shoot him in the panel. SOLVED
Sorry. I don't understand. Could you please provide a video?
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Yes, and as I've said, playing Grineer and Infestation only will only get me so far. For one, that leaves almost half the map locked, so stiff biscutis if there's anything there I want or need to progress. Secondly, Have you TRIED leveling a weapon meant for killing Corpus on Grineer or Infestation planets? Not so good, is it.
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1 minute ago, VoidWraith said:
You don't HAVE to kill every enemy, unless it's an endless mission (in which case, you should really learn to adapt).
Haven't played much extermination, have you. Let's see what you have to say when the last enemy of your extermination mission is dead and while you are ON YOUR WAY to turn the alarm off, a Bursa spawns and @!#$ you in the A.
If I wanted to quit, I would. I don't want to quit. But if I can no longer find enjoyment in the game, what point is there in playing? That is why I am here, voicing my issue in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, someone with the right power will hear my words and give enough of a dam that change will occur. What change? Good question. Let me just go out and get a designing degree so that I can come up with some ideas.
You do know what the purpose of a forum is, right?
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Yes, and as it has already been said, and not even by me (specifically), getting behind and shooting a Bursa in the back, on console, not as easy as it sounds. Their turn rate isn't nearly as slow as people make them out to be. As for coming up with ideas, gee, how nice would it be if everyone who played a game was a game designer.
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Turning the alarm off is a... stop-gap measure, honestly. Yes, it's a good strategy, but it's a treatment for the symptom, not the underlying problem. And it's not always as simple as turning the alarm off. Sometimes the alarm console is in an obscure place and you either can't get to it fast enough, or get lost/turned around trying to find it. And, of course, there's the matter of the closest one being in a room full of enemies out to fill you with whatever ammunition their weapons use.
As for missions that don't have Bursas, What missions are those? Because I'm only going to get so far doing only Grineer, Infestation and "flying" missions.
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1 minute ago, VoidWraith said:
You're currently, the only one (that we know of) complaining about it, instead of coming up ways to deal with this obstacle. You've hit a metaphorical wall and stopped to complain.
Yes. I am complaining. I won't deny it. In fact, I'm proud of it. Because nothing ever changed for the better without someone first voicing their disagreement for how it was presently. Sure, maybe nothing will happen. In fact, it's probably likely. But if no one complains, then it's certain nothing will change.
I'm all for a difficult enemy. Grineer Napalms and the like were difficult (before I got my Boltor to where it is now), but they weren't to such a point that they were only infuriating. I still enjoyed fighting them and I certainly didn't dread facing them. They made me want to pay attention and put in 120% effort. But these things are like trying to tear down a brick wall with a rubber mallet. And I intend to exercise my right to express my disagreement with such a situation.
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1 minute ago, VoidWraith said:
You don't speak for the "rest of us average players" .... You are speaking for yourself.
Yes, I'm sure I'm the ONLY person who is not pro league gamer skilled.
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I have Loki (it was the first frame I selected when first starting) but have avoided it like the plague mostly because I lacked the skill to utilise its skills effectively.
Rhino is my main and most well established frame because it suits my abilities best. I've never been good at avoiding getting hit. Rhino is good for this.
Frost I do not yet have.
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Why? One word. Bursas.
What.... masochist thought it would be a good idea for add these... things?!
The first game I got on my PS4 was Warframe (back when the PS4 initially came out). Admittedly, I only got it because it was free and Second Son had been delayed; I knew nothing about Warframe and saw no loss in giving it a try for that price. My PS4 was just an expensive paperweight otherwise. At least for a few more months. I immediately fell into a great love/addiction, for many reasons. Customisation. Gameplay. Even the general concept.
I'm a casual player and I typically play solo (for various reasons that are not relevant). And after an absence from the game, I returned eager to see what new wonders had been added. An extension to my ship. Relay stations. New parkour animations (honestly I'm not a fan of those). And, of course, Bursas...
The first time I learned of these... atrocities was while getting back into the swing of things. I fired up a Corpus mission and started putting the ugly robot-heads on the ground. I then hear "The alarm has triggers a bursa" or something along those lines and my first thought was "What's a bursa?" Little did I know that over the following week these things would become the bane of my Warframe experience. It showed up before me and God knows I unloaded every bullet I had into that thing, plus all four of my revives and an whole slew of melee attacks. But all it did was laugh at me.
My thoughts after that? WHAT THE.... ever loving HELL!?!?!?!
I used to love this game. I used to praise it so highly. I would have happily sat for a DECADE in order to earn every frame and weapon I could through patience and hard work. But this? This is... these things are not fun. Not in any way, shape or form. All these things give me is frustration and anguish.
I never considered this game to be easy. It had its challenges. It had a difficulty level that although curved smoothly, was defined and recognisable. You knew what your limits were. You could push them, train them and improve upon them. Even when you were kicking A. and taking names, if you got reckless, the game could still F. you up. But there is a line. A line that has been crossed. From difficult to impossible! Absurd! Insane!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All you elitists and P2W people can "deal with them no sweat" blah blah blah. Good for you.
For the rest of us average players, these things are a NIGHTMARE! I now find myself dreading doing a Corpus mission because of these things. Half the game is essentially locked out because of these things. How am I expected to progress if I can't kill these things? Why should I continue to play if I can't progress?
This SINGLE mob (and its alternate incarnations) have literally brought me to the point of no longer wanting to play this game on account of the fact that Bursa's are so far beyond my capabilities there simply is no more fun to be had.
Is this what you wanted, DE? Is this what you were trying to achieve? To chase people away from your game?
For the love of sanity, please, PLEASE do something about these... abominations. Get rid of them. Nerf them. Make them killable so that I can actually finish a Corpus mission without risking having an aneurysm.
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I can tell already that if it just outright killed you when LS ran out, you'd be in here complaining about that, too.
You see, that's where you're wrong. Failing because I've died from running out of air actually makes sense, as opposed to mysteriously disappearing Life Support Systems. Run out of air, die, fail. Run out of air, survive, get more air, keep going. It's really not a hard thing to figure out.
And if by some moronic chance you think that by dying you'd lose all your already gained rewards, allow me to point out that even when you fail a defense mission, you still get the rewards you've already earned.
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The problem is that you assume "that which is needed to survive" is being taken away without you being able to do anything about it.
The reality is that you're allowing it to be taken away. If you were better you could have hit that LS faster and there would have been no issue. But you were slow and you failed because of it, and you want to blame it on something other than your failure. Sorry, that's not gonna fly. It's YOUR OWN BLOODY FAULT that the LS went away. You are CONSTANTLY shown and reminded that life support is draining. Life support is ALWAYS marked on the map so that you can get to it in plenty of time. If you hit it with very very low amounts left, it has a grace period so that you don't fail while you're in the middle of activation. Heck, the location of the life support is marked in advance to give you plenty of time to get to its location. Stop blaming DE for your own failure.
Yeah, being forced to navigate through twists, turns, over banisters and boxes, and through hordes of flailing, shooting and vision obscuring mobs, while having to sidetrack for health pickups, energy pickups, ammo to actually kill things, and occasionally being knocked on my backside by a random enemy is entirely MY FAULT that I'm a few seconds off from getting to the mark.
Why should they let you continue to get rewards after failing?
Oh, gee, I don't know, how about BECAUSE I SURVIVED! The name of the game is to survive. So fail me when I DON'T! Fail me when I DIE! If my air runs out, KILL ME! Maybe instead of just letting hp run down to 5, it should KEEP GOING TO ZERO! Oh, no! That'll stop people getting to the exit after the air has run out. But wait, I thought if the air ran out, you failed? O:
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Take a look at what you're listing as stopping you, and explain how those aren't all failures in and of themselves.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I somehow step out of some perfect world that you live in where every obstacle you face merely falls before you in reverence, and you walk to victory on a gold paved road because you're just that awesome?
If you think for a second that I'm going to believe you somehow magically have total control over every single miniscule thing that happens on the battle field, then I'm afraid you're pulling the wool over the wrong person's heads.
I may not have twenty Warframes fully modded to choose from, with forty different weapons each with three different configurations on them, but I'm not a friggin' moron. Not EVERYTHING is controllable. There ARE times when no matter how good you THINK you are, you still get laid out like someone slammed into you with a Mac Truck. Just because you delude yourself into thinking you're the bee's knees and are infallible, doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to recognise a pile of sticking crap when I smell it.
Having a mission that is about surviving and then taking away that which is needed TO survive is poor designing. End of story. It's pointless, and no matter how many exploit excuses you throw at it, nothing will change the fact that it is a BS tactic and a troll mechanism.
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Time is the objective. You get your rewards based on time. I don't know how you could've possibly missed that.
You get there a few seconds short, and you've screwed up. It's a failure. It just is - equivalent to letting the defense objective get blown up, or letting the hostage get killed, or letting the sabotage console get blown up. You've got a countdown that says you must get more oxygen before this runs out, or you lose, and you let it run out. What's unfair about that, exactly?
It's setup the way it is because it has been exploited in the past, Loki exploits, Trinity exploits back when blessing was simple invulnerability. There are entirely too many ways to get around draining health and shields that if you were allowed to do that, it would be heavily exploited forever. So DE used the simple obvious solution - run out and you fail.
Then address the exploits, not the exploitable. If that's the case then maybe DE are just getting lazy and decided to break their game rather than put in effort to preventing such easy exploitations.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Survival is not a "race the clock" objective. If it was, then there'd be no mobs to fight and you'd spend your time running around the map picking stuff up or hacking consoles. There are any number of possible ways in which even the best player can be pulled back from getting to their target in time just to have victory ripped out of their hands through cheap means as a result of this mechanic. Ancients knocking you on your &#!. Capsule placement. Fallen comrades. Being taken out yourself. If you're on a team and you're the closest to the capsule, but also have the lowest health, how is it fair to the rest of the team if you get killed trying to activate the next capsule and they can't get to it in time?
This mechanic in and of itself is flawed and broken. And in so in makes the entire mission flawed and broken. DE seriously needs to reevaluate their position on this mission's design and overhaul the whole damned thing. If it can be exploited so easily, redesign it so it can't be exploited, but do so without breaking it for everyone else who isn't an F1 racing car!
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If you could just run to the pod and activate it to get the timer going again and get more life support what stops a Loki with a perma-invis build from sitting in a hole in the wall and only running out to activate the large pods and nothing else with absolutely no penalty at all. Hek he could even alt-tab, wait for the pods to build up then go back in and activate them all, hide again and repeat that over and over again with no effort spent.
Can't say I've seen a great number of "holes in the wall" in which to hide. Then again, I'm not one to look for such things. In any case, such a scenario sounds to me more like a Loki related issue, not a Survival mission issue. If Loki can be used to exploit in such a manner, I'd say look at the way in which Loki is designed, rather than break an entire mission for everyone.
And if hitting zero atmosphere is meant to indicate a mission failure, why am I not hit with a mission failure screen immediately upon running out of air? If the mission is over, then the mission is over. Why am I still able to run around, watch my health drain away and then get *@##$ slapped to death by some low class mob?
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They put a bar to indicate how much you have left, and you let it run out, even though "Don't run out" is the entire core of the mode.
This isn't a design flaw any more then falling into a hole in super mario brothers makes holes a design flaw. It's just a failure to achieve the mission's objectives. Nothing more.
Survival is called Survival for a reason. You're meant to survive. It's about surviving, not racing a clock. I know why the atmosphere gauge is there, I know it's purpose. It stops players from standing on a box and going AFK for 30 minutes, or camping out in one corner and just popping mobs as they come down the hall. The declining atmosphere drives the player to move, to actively fight and not just camp, to put them into the fight as opposed to just cheaply avoiding it while riding home on an easy trunk full of rare mods or resources. But what is the purpose of putting a bullet in the head of the person who is a few seconds short of getting to the mark on time? It's not a matter of "getting good", it's a matter of fair play.
Whether it's 25 seconds or 2.5 seconds, there is NO reason that ANY player should have to suffer for not being able to catch a mark in time when TIME isn't the objective. The name of the game is how long can you SURVIVE, not how long can you run around and hit checkpoints like some time trial in a racing game.
The Relationship Between Armour and Health/Robotics
in General
Posted
Maybe I didn't make myself clear... When I look at an enemy's health bar, and it is yellow, what exactly am I seeing?
Let's assume for the sake of argument that an enemy's health bar isn't just a coloured line, but coloured numbers. Now, as an example, let's take a typical Grineer unit which I believe has somewhere in the vicinity of 200 armour and 5 health. Now, when I look at its health "bar" in combat, what numbers will I be seeing?
Is the armour the only value portrayed while in effect? Will I see only 200, with that 5 health invisible unless revealed by some means?
Is the armour and health combined? Will I see 205?
Or maybe it's just 5, representing, in fact, the health that is simply turned yellow because the armour is in effect?
And how are these instances affected when inflicting damage? If it is the first, is that invisible 5 reduced behind the scenes? Or is it untouchable unless the 200 armour is 'transformed' by means of status effect into the red 5? If it's the second, does the number turn red once the 205 has been reduced to just 5? Or if it's the third, is it as bubbabenali seems to imply above, the yellow 5's resistances are changed to reflect the armour's resistances until made red by status effect?
Handing me damage reduction formulas doesn't help me because I'm not a maths expert nor does it really explain what the actual visual representation of health and robotics with armour applied is.