MechaKnight
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Posts posted by MechaKnight
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The title is long but accurate. Kubrows have a loyalty mechanic while kavats, MOAs, and sentinels do not, drastically reducing their effectiveness compared to all other companions.
Whenever a companion is stranded on an enemy crewship, the pet dies when the crewship dies, but is resurrected as a workaround since the pet should have theoretically left the crewship when you did. This technical solution is not a problem for all other companions, but kubrows lose loyalty any time they die or do not accompany the player for a mission within a day. A kubrows loyalty instantly drops to zero any given day the player takes one into railjack missions, reducing its effectiveness for the majority of the week.
Thus alongside being the least popular companions in the entire game by DE's statistics, they are also the worst companion type for the current most popular gameplay content in the game. Please rectify this problem by removing or reworking the loyalty system on kubrows.
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Defeating liches should be rewarded because defeating a lich is harder than killing a thrall. Therefore, defeating a lich should reward more murmurs than killing a thrall, clear and simple. Perhaps DE thought too many murmurs was the problem, so they can make it so lich assists give 3 or so murmurs to people who are merely assisting someone else's lich battle.
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This issue seems to be happening across the game with a variety of weapons, as seen on reddit.
Spoiler -
The Kuva Chakkhurr seems to only inflict status procs if the enemy survives the initial impact of the weapon. For example, with high status chance and over 100% critical chance when using Hunter Munitions, there appears to be no status procs--Growing Power would never trigger once. The only scenario statuses seem to appear is when hitting an enemy target that wouldn't die on initial impact, such as a kuva siphon or an enemy temporarily made invincible by a void fissure.
This issue should be fixed to better enable status-based builds.
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As in title, the Kuva Zevokk Shoulder Plates hold shoulder regalia like badges incorrectly on Saryn Prime.
Spoiler
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Turning off color correction seems to disable it, but I liked color correction. Please fix this glaring issue.
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Every time I swing my weapon I get an awful, extremely bright light effect. It's eye-searing. Headache and seizure reports inbound!
Temporary Solution Found: Disabling color correction removes the light effect. This should still be fixed by DE.
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I've posted long replies on this thread about the nature of radial damage abilities, so if you want my more complete perspective you should revisit the earlier pages. Since the thread is being bumped yet again and people are still making hasty decisions without seeing the game over the years, here's the summary.
Warframe has a glaring issue since birth regarding any radial emission, be it an enemy's napalm blast or a warframe's ability: they pass infinitely through walls for as far as the source has range. Similar to how a Grineer napalm or bombard hits you through terrain or a nullifier's aura nullifies you through a wall, we players can stun or kill enemies through walls.
However, the amount of range players stack on via mods has been excessive since corrupted mods and made ever more so by new range mods; we can stack 280% range stat to triple the range developers intended players to have. I have listed the many ways developers have attempted to resolve this issue in the past in previous posts, but the quickest way to explain: Vivergate radial spam and melee weapon line-of-sight, along with a growing list of ability-immune enemies including the recently-introduced Arbitration drones that are surely the test battery for the new abilities sentients will inherit.
Concisely said, the developers have misunderstood this core game problem as a Warframe balance problem, thus heaps of warframe nerfs and reworks have been applied over the years instead of addressing the core issue: radials shouldn't pass indiscriminately through walls.
Regarding player warframe abilities, the quick and dirty way is to rebalance the Overextended range mod, but the permanent solution is introduce line-of-sight to abilities similar to the kind tried during the Vivergate fiasco. For people who missed that, notice how melee weapons have pure line-of-sight where you can't hit enemies through walls. Ability line-of-sight was more generous than that--if the enemy was visible to the warframe within 5 seconds of the frame casting their radial ability, they'll get hit by the radial ability. In the case of Saryn's Spores it'll be a bit different: if the enemy was killed by that Saryn player's direct damage from any source other than the spore itself, the spore will spread to whatever enemies were visible to the initial enemy within a 5 second window. The same emitter-to-target logic is still obeyed, just with extra steps.
I've been a long-time player of Warframe who has played mostly every frame and I main Saryn since I first saw her and through all her bizarrely different ability iterations. People spammed radials with a bunch of Warframes in the past, most of which were nerfed but they didn't need to be. People will find another radial damage warframe to spam after Saryn because there are many such frames, but the current nerf logic means we'll just keep nerfing warframes as we have done for years past.
Implementing line-of-sight is a widespread fix on this pervasive issue that makes this game's combat so unfulfilling since you can just spam heaps of radials until everything dies before it ever saw you or was within walking distance of you. Line-of-sight will feel like a kind of blanket nerf, but it'll preserve or improve gameplay health since people tend to quit the game after everything dies to any given choice of frame radial damage ability. The developers have been cooperative for years in adjusting grind and rewards scaling, and I'm sure they'll be glad to make an even trade to boost mission rewards and/or decrease craft costs in exchange for implementing line-of-sight to fix this global issue that makes them develop warframe reworks to deliver enough frame radial nerfs to act as a poor proxy solution until they accidentally make yet another balance mistake they'll have to nerf for in the future.
In short, we need line-of-sight to fix this issue for all warframes over the game's lifespan. If you want to spam radials to farm faster, ask the developers to reduce the craft cost of whatever you're farming for so you don't need to obsess over spamming radial damage until you're bored of the game. It's really lame to defend broken game mechanics just because you want more loot to defeat some overpriced craft requirement. Just ask for the cost to be fixed along with implementing line-of-sight, since the only reason why craft costs became this bad in the first place is because the developers know how broken it is to spam radials all day.
If this post feels too long, I posted heaps of longer ones in the earlier pages. I apologize if this post was more terse, but I have been more specific earlier in the thread.
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34 minutes ago, Critiamat said:
My opinion? My opinion... hmm.
Remove Saryn and Mesa from public matchmaking pending a rework that will result in non game breaking, non fun sucking, and non braindead gameplay.
I don't understand how anyone can have "fun" playing these two, honestly.Nah, fix these two and ppl will find other way to don't use brain cells.
Don't bother hating me, tl;dl reading past 6 pages, won't read next replies too.Well, you did admit you didn't read the previous pages so I'll give you credit for being honest.
My first post on this thread said something similar to "do not blame any particular warframe for this gameplay issue, it is systematic across the game." Many warframes in the past spammed radials constantly, and DE finds ways to prevent mindless radial spam from becoming effective, from making enemies durable, ability-resistant, or able to nullify abilities. Meanwhile the developers put true line-of-sight on melee weapons and have put line-of-sight on abilities before. Nerfing any one warframe without an adequate rework just makes players move on to the next warframe who abuses radials.
The blunt reality is, if the developers don't nerf all specific radial-damage frame abilities or implement line-of-sight on abilities globally, they'll push out more ability-resistant enemies to ensure spamming radial damage is not viable. They do this because spamming radial damage is mindless and takes away from the game experience by making the game boring to the player doing the spam, and making the game barely enjoyable for anyone following in the footsteps of the player as there's barely a single living enemy to battle.
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2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:
-You sound like an elitist right out of the gate. Just so know.- You know that most of the complains would be fixed, if the amount of materials dropped from enemies scaled higher the level they were is? People would farm high level missions where mods like over-extended were designed for. Otherwise people will enjoy Nuke frames, for a multitude of reasons. Seeing everything die when you use her right, forma-ing her out. Warframe is a looter shooter first, akin to diablo.
Have you farmed the Hema in clan research? Do you know... just how many mutagen you need if you have a larger clan? Even a meager clan size of 100 people, (20-30 being friends, or friends of friends. 100 clan size was the smallest would fit everyone) Made it take agonizingly long. Having no scaling requirements of clan dojos, would be counter intuitive, as bigger clans would get things much faster then everyone else, if you have that many people, and need a total of 50 of any rare resource....I was talking to someone who claimed they were a veteran when they only played the game for a year, and said only new players want balance. I'm a veteran and I also want balance. To resolve your material issues, you ask for them to be solved directly, not supported by broken mechanics that harm the quality of gameplay and make the developers push more frame nerfs.
2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:If you didn't care people carrying, we wouldnt have this conversation. De has gone out of their way to not nerf over-extended. Instead, they have taken a different path. Adding more special missions where Over-extended has little, or lower impact. Open World Areas, raid bosses, and harder missions. Rail jack next, even adding more range mods. (If De felt that power range was a problem, why would they continue to add additional range options beyond Stretch, and Over-extended? Cunning Drift, and an Auger Mod I believe...) You can criticize the game all you want, but what you want to force upon other people does deserve to be limited. Raids, which were the most difficult content at the time, was hardly touched by the majority of the player base. Ignored. People didn't want harder content, even if Raids were lucrative. (I made so much plat from Raids. ) People didn't fight for harder or better designed raids, (even with Frames like Saryn being pointless in said raids.)
I am that person who accidentally carries teams, and I know from the constant complaint threads and DE's history of frame nerfs and anti-ability enemies, they don't like range. Notice how the new range mods are based around 30% range increments, not 45%, which is very telling that they don't like giving players much range. Raids were trivialized by radial spam, and if you recall playing the Jordas Verdict, you'd remember how useful frames like Ember and Saryn were during the 3-console room, elevator, and final boss phases for many groups.
2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:A couple of other points you made, are incorrect. Trinity, and Nyx's nerf for example. Trinity had her damage reduction blessing nerfed, as well as Blessing losing it's infinite range. Nyx and her interaction with over-extended was never touched. Two Nyx's absorbing each other's damage to cheaply, and endlessly nuke every enemy around them was nerfed. (That's why Nyx's absorb does magnetic damage, and Absorb only collects like 10% of magnetic damage? As well as costing energy per damage absorbed to prevent this...)
Blessing lose infinite range because having that much range is detrimental to the game. Nyx's synergy with Overextended was too strong since she didn't care for base damage when she could effectively triple her range and stack infinite damage across a partner Nyx, so DE got rid of infinite-damage nuking without penalty from Overextended. You have contradicted yourself--DE clearly doesn't want range in these examples.
2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:All casters in warframe have obvious downsides to them. Nyx, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Mirage, Saryn, Mag, Etc- Have lower armor then other frames around them. Casters are a well known stereotype, that deal more damage, but can't take as much damage. This is what makes Caster's balanced. I can copy and paste an earlier post where I went through different frames effective health. Every frame has a downside of some sort. The Nukers biggest weakness? Squish or be squished gameplay in later levels.
What downside? The enemies can barely get close before they die by being stunlocked and killed through walls. If you played the game for even a year you'd notice how rarely you take shield damage to the point where you lose any health at all. The downside is irrelevant when the only risk is nullified by an easily-afforded ability.
56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:Incorrect. You don't grasp the mechanics of how this works at all. Oversimplification and nonsense.
You may as well say that to yourself then downsize your clan like my other alliance partners have done in the past. If you can't keep your clan adequately active you need only remove those members from your first clan until the member count is low enough to fit into the next lowest tier, then destroy the barracks and contact support.
56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:Say what now? I do it. Why can't they? Too good for that I suppose.
It's because random matchmaking is just that--random. It's for ease of access to squads to get the gameplay done and have fun without organizing a team first. Recruiting doesn't work because it's too slow, too laborious, you can't remove people who lie about what they're bringing when they join your squad, you have to instruct them exactly how you want them to play and what they bring ,and in the end you'll be dissatisfied when they purposely disobeyed every squad requirement you set. Matchmaking is faster but random. Telling people who encounter frequent problems in matchmaking to make their own squad isn't justified when the complaining portion of the playerbase is too large. There are reasons why Limbo was reworked to his current state, back when he was first released many people wanted to avoid that frame but alas, they could not. People still ask for some frames to be nerfed, and when the portion of people is large enough, it does show that a significant portion of the community is dissatisfied with something. To ignore them is to be like EA and neglect your playerbase on purpose. That's why nerfs and reworks happen--because the entire community is involved. Players ask for change, the developers grant it. We all inherently work towards balance.
56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:And right here is where you miss the point. Your idea of fun and my idea of fun can be completely opposites. Your priorities and my priorities can be completely opposites.
Who then, is right? Well of course, "I am" is the standard answer no matter who says it, so no, this is not a solution, this is YOUR solution and it literally goes against everything I would want in the game, and additionally, the read of the situation you include at the beginning is YOUR INTERPRETATION, not the fact of the matter. The analogy doesn't hold. It holds for a certain type of player, the type that cries about Saryn, or whatever the flavor of the week is. It doesn't hold for everyone else. Stop stating opinions as if they are facts, that doesn't fly.
You used all those words to say "I disagree, both of our opinions are just that--opinions--and opinions are subjective." We can agree to disagree. I know for a fact though that when a significant portion of players complain, change happens. Saryn has already been nerfed a few times, may be nerfed again, then some more frames will be nerfed like what usually happens in this ongoing cruel cycle of frame nerfs. Lets stop the cycle and find a permanent solution to abiltiy range abuse, because the current developer path is to nerf frames or create anti-ability mechanics.
While I'm at it, lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.
- Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
- Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
- The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
- The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
- The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
- The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
- The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
- Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
- Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.
The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.
I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects.
56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:You really don't understand what total balance is, nor do you have any understanding of gray area.
I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.
I do understand what balance is as far as I've played many games, run guilds, organized 20/40 man raids, grinded my ass off in grossly terribly game economies, and played games that were a variety of qualities from exceptional to disgustingly shallow. I know that letting gameplay degrade to the point where it is too trivial harms the replay value of the game. Challenging content could only work as long as it can bring challenge, but not when it is trivialized by the same overpowered metagames that trivialized every other attempt at challenge the developers ever pushed towards us. Years ago, the solution was spam stun and damage radials. Today, the solution is to spam stun and damage radials. The years have passed and challenges were released, but the solution is always the same. Arbitrations is the first peek to see how far DE will push invulnerability conditions to prevent radial abilities from being effective.
56 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:I'm already bored of your rhetorical explanations, come back with something new or don't bother please and thank you.
You speak like an elitist, telling people to go away when you don't agree with their opinion. How pathetic. You should revisit my previous post, you could've learned much from it had you understood and reflected back on the game over the years. Oh wait, you only started playing last year.
I recommend both of you to read my previous post more carefully. Take a moment to reflect back on the games across the years.
Resource grind or broken balance is a big part of why people play games. Warframe is generous for most material requirements, but there's still some to be fixed. The gameplay stagnation is the current biggest issue. Line-of-sight is a range fix that doesn't touch any mod magnitudes but reduces the occurences of players nuking enemies through walls. It's a big win across the majority of players.
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15 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:
You're point is a bit off here.
If the grind to reward ratio was satisfying then people wouldn't spend hours days and weeks trying to figure out the next exploit nuke. One guy would, but he wouldnt talk about it to make sure he didnt get it nerfed.
Grind is necessary for premium currency to habe effect in this model. Players compensate by investing wisely and grinding efficiently.
Less efficient players then get butt hurt rather than saying thank you for their rewards, putting together their own groups or playing solo.
If the grind isn't so bad, tell me how many millions of plastics you've farmed to decorate one single room of your moon tier dojo. If the answer is none, you are speaking from ignorance. Tell me about the tower white grind for mountain tier. Tell me about 12k Oxium requirements for a single object. Then look me in the eye and tell me the grind is balanced.
It isn't.
One of the best things about warframe is it has lots of stuff to do, and players can set their own priorities. This is also one of its biggest challenges.
By having different priorities we end up with arguments like this. The answer is pretty simple though, you don't get to tell people what they are allowed to consider fun and how they should play.
You do get to be responsible for your own good time. DE is responsible for content, you are responsible for your emotional content.
Additionally, you have 4 options available I lined out above.
The key thing is, you need to habe grind to male money in this model. You also need a rewarding game play loop. To stretch that out over 5 years their is massive power disparity between newbies and vets, as with any game. The difference is the vets legit have something to do, not Mich, but farming is an activity that does have a payoff. If we had sustainable endgame this might solve some of the problem but we don't.
What we have is de bending over backwards to coddle and baby new players while ignoring the vet experience almost exclusively.
Trying to take away all our efficient farming methods will result in massive outcry and exodus, not just of vets, but newer players too.
The thing is, actual balance isn't good. If you think it is, go play Nintendo karate where both fighters are identical. Tell me it's a good game. If you legit think it is then go play that instead of ruining warframe. If you recognize that the game is crap, then you realize why long game play loops require unbalanced approaches and how that is a mandatory part of existence in the market.
There is a time for nerfs, but that time is almost never. Usually you can solve nerfing something by simply buffing elsewhere. Nerfs are only good for things that are so far off the spectrum they are legit game breaking in all environments, not just in comparison to the new player experience.
I am a veteran--I was here 3 years earlier than you--so drop your no true Scotsman fallacy, not all veterans support broken game mechanics in exchange for pointless loot grinding.
Many of us have been around for so long grinding and casually playing that mission rewards are a secondary cause, unless you're trying to decorate a Moon Clan where by absolutely broken standards all material requirements are multiplied by 100 because it is expected that all members contribute. If you're bothered by that the immediate self-solution is to downsize your clan tier because it clearly isn't active enough. I don't like DE's system of scaling dojo requirements so harshly to clan member capacity, but if that's your problem you can look up how to downgrade your clan tier.
You can't tell people they don't have the right to criticize a long-standing issue regarding the game, because they play it just as you do. Many of the people criticizing the lack of difficulty in the face of overextended player range through walls come from more difficult MMOs and team-based games where we actually had to work as a team in order to win the game. We don't care if someone's carrying, because we came to play the game and have fun too.
So you say these players should make their own squad, but that's not a solution either. Playing solo isn't efficient because fewer enemies spawn, and recruiting is too efficient because even if you set rules for your session people break those rules anyway because it is always more efficient to nuke through walls than play tactically for fun. There isn't much difficulty to be found except for waiting way too long in infinite missions, which isn't viable for busy professionals with congested lives that only allow an hour of gameplay on only some days.
As a veteran, the only people experiencing "endgame" adequately is the freshly new guy with an Mk-1 weapon kit who got taxi'd into a nightmare mode mission on a level 40+ Void node. We don't have adequate endgame yet because nuking through walls before the enemy can touch you is still the most effective strategy on a team even through infinite content. The developers had to resort to making Nullifiers, Nox, Juggernauts, Bursas, Combas, Energy Leeches, and now Arbitration-invincible enemies to make sure spamming abilities won't work all the time. Alas, all we do is spam anyway to kill the majority then spend a tiny bit of effort to kill the "stronger" enemy.
I'm a veteran and I've been sick of the lack of endgame, which is only an issue because we have a lack of challenge because we eliminate all challenge through radials. We not only need balance but actively seek it as an entire community. Let me explain.
It's a simple plan for most developers to release a game then build on it, but a common issue within this scenario is that player options are not balanced, as new content added can tip the scales, and content originally created wasn't tested for balance within the then/current/future meta-game. There are a lot of things a dev team would regret in making playable content too weak or too strong against player scenarios.
When player content is too weak buffing it is something everyone can agree with, but when content is too strong there's a lot of opposition from the players who either want to play the game with the content because it is more fun, or meta-gaming corruption from players who want more earned rewards. Agreements to fix overpowered content are built around consensus that it is not fun to have this content around, and we have adequate earning potential towards game rewards.
It varies by developer and game, but so far Warframe has wonderfully accessible content aside from a few outliers like Hema research. I would say we do not need or really want more powerful options. Some people say it is fun, but my observation is that a game without challenge or thrill is not fun. Once players are established in a game too well, the game ceases to be fun, thus the player either has to invent fun or quit the game until more potentially fun content arrives. If the player is too strong, all new content is quickly trivialized.
Balance around PvE and PvP are different, with the scale leaning towards PvE requiring more balance for sustainability of the game experience, while PvP adjusts balance through competitive meta evolution, but still requires balance because an overcentralized meta-game severely limits gameplay until significant fun through variety is lost.
A suggestion that sounds good is to create more challenging and fun content, but there are some outlier player options that are so strong they repeatedly remove excessive amounts of challenge from all new content, even when challenge is the sole goal of the added content. Overpowered content of this nature should be balanced to create an overall more fun and sustainable game.
Warframe is a very unique game that allows players to modify ability stats with amounts and versatility rarely seen in other games, thus creating unique problems for the rare situations in games that are more common in Warframe.
In Warframe we can modify abilities and melee weapons to have more range. This brings about balance issues when one player option creates synergies with other player options to an excessive degree.
For example, Overextended, which I call the nerf bringer. This mod has been the core reason for frame ability rebalances for years since it was released. Frames rebalanced around this mod include but are not limited to: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and Volt. For these mentioned frames throughout the years, a large-range radial ability has been altered (usually nerfed), although occasionally later the ability is buffed. This is usually the case when said frame has an ability that damages or stuns in a large area to the degree that it deletes or disables enemies long before they come close to players. This is the core cause of the Vivergate issues and trial attempts with line-of-sight range modification and improved enemy spawn algorithms. This is also the cause for defense and interception map reworks.
You can see this effect within the current standing meta-game. For radial area damage dealing competition amongst frames, there are Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and Saryn. Out of these 4 frames, 3 of them have their area-damage builds centralized around Overextended, while Mesa has an exceptionally large unmodifiable range but great damage and status potential. For buff and stun support we have Banshee and Octavia, with builds both centralized around Overextended for their usual build. For healers we have Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity. 2 of these frames have their range bound by affinity range rather than the ability range stat, and Oberon's healing support is unbound by range, while initiating his armor support requires teammates to stand on Hallowed Ground, which is increased by range stat, thus this becomes easier/better with this stat.
Overextended centralizes these builds by attracting players to use the mod for the "good builds." If you're not using this mod, your build just doesn't work so well for the same goal.
I would consider Overextended to be an item which overcentralizes builds, but I'm not satisfied with the usual end result of this issue in most Warframe circumstances. Rather than rebalance this one mod, the aforementioned long list of frames I mentioned had various tweaks to address their range, and future added frame abilities are built to avoid excessive range effect like Revenant's Danse Macabre.
Warframe is a unique game that creates unique problems, and as such in needs to create unique solutions.
As for speaking about the difference in power between new players and veterans playing the same mission, that's a progression issue, not a balance issue.
The balance issue appears when nearly all forms of gameplay meta-game are overcentralized around a particular player option, such that picking this one option is the one winning choice, all others aren't as good all-around even considering different scenarios. If you wish to think about World of Warcraft to explain this issue, consider the following 2 examples.
A level 100 player is playing within level 45 missions and is dominating due to the strength of their gear. That's a progression issue--there isn't sufficient content for that player to be exercising their power in.
A newly added class named the Deathknight (or anything, make up a name) is about the best overall class, dealing extremely high amounts of damage against multiple targets while also being very durable and fast, rising to become the best class with little or no competition. This is a balance problem: if you're not playing with this overpowered class, you're not making the best meta-game decision. Your teammates may feel overshadowed by the might of this class, and seeing this class in a squad would predispose you to think "they're going to be among the best performers," while seeing anyone not using this class for its role makes you think "this person is not going to be one of the best performers."
Thus, the best option is to create a rebalance. If one player option is overpowered compared to the rest in a game where the rest of the options are already capable enough against gameplay, it probably deserves a nerf. If one player option is stronger than the rest but the others are not sufficiently capable against content, they need a buff. It could even be a mix of both: the single stronger player option is still overpowered, but the game content you're fighting against is also overpowered, thus nerfs to both. In the end of this process the goal is that everyone's having fun and choice is a gift, not a curse.
Balance is something developers and players both want because balance is good. Balance is natural. When a game is unbalanced players dread logging in and developers turn in their sleep troubled over the one gameplay experience the players aren't enjoying to its fullest.
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I have been talking about this issue since U16, and it's been an issue before that too. At U16 it was Excalibur nuking the entire map within 58.75m and killing vastly more than any other warframe. Ash was around that same time killing everything with 2k slash procs, able to stack up to 40k slash damage with 100% chance at bleed procs on any enemy. Before that, Nova was nuking entire rooms since her Molecular Prime debuff range and the explosion damage range both scaled off range mods at the time.
The major issue: the game is being trivialized and this shortens its lifespan for any player who plays this game. The reason why people argue in favor of these broken mechanics is for gameplay rewards. The issue and its lobbying became obvious during the Vivergate scandal period, when an extremely balance and then-unbalanced Syndicate system was release, which was initially way too much grind for even the tiniest rewards. Once players saw how much grind was involved they created an extreme grind method, and once developers realized this they developed line-of-sight, limiting warframe ability effectiveness by only allowing them to hit enemies if the warframe was within visual sight of the enemy within 5 seconds before casting.
The solution solved the range problem in a permanently viable manner, but then players absolutely did not want it because their only viable method for farming towards syndicate rewards was being stolen from them, so they rebelled. The developers removed line-of-sight requirement mechanics from abilities, made Syndicate rewards far easier to obtain, and then went on a structured development plan to make enemies that were effectively ability-immune, by mechanics that they either resist all damage, resist abilities, nullify abilities, are extremely durable, or steal player energy.
As of currently, players still complain about long-range abilities trivializing the game, to which other players argue they should continue doing this. For those who support mindless nuke-spam they just want to farm more efficiently, but this isn't a valid point because the developers have gone to great lengths to ensure player satisfaction in material acquisition and progression. I support line-of-sight because it will in fact make the game more fun and tactical, while barely harming our ability to earn within the game.
The developers clearly have regret with their initial balance plan regarding ability range, as range mods have been much weaker beyond Stretch and Overextended, being based off 30% increments instead of 45% increments. Arbitrations are a testing ground to design invincible enemies, designed purely to combat our tendency to spam damaging radials. Newer warframes lack long-range damage radials that pass through walls.
That said, I'm glad this issue is coming up more frequently.
However make no mistake--this is a systematic issue, not one you should blame any one warframe for.
We do need a permanent ability range issue. The quick and dirty way is to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength, but the true solution is something similar to line-of-sight.
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10 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:
You talking about solo? Typical dismissive argument to ignore a criticism towards a clear problem with the game, which is one player wiping out entire rooms on their own. Again, that would be better for Saryn, Mesa, Volt and Equinox players, because they clearly don't need teammates. Why do they need anybody if they're able to do what a full team can with just a single press of a button?
I'll tell you why they don't play solo, it's the same reason non-press-4-to-win players don't: Spawns are terrible. Saryn just wants players to act as spawn-slaves to get more enemies to kill. To hell with what the teammates want, they can just sit in a corner for all they care.Your post reminds me of my large post back during U16 Excalibur mega-nuking via Radial Javelin. The problem is the same regardless of the frame, whether its is Excalibur and Mag on Viver or 4 Rhinos taking turns stomping. The majority of our radial abilities reach through walls to touch enemies who can't touch us, and overall the enemies found on solar system nodes are so weak just about anything would kill them.
That said, we should consider a reform. Digital Extremes has proven to us they work hard to please their playerbase and manage the level of grind when it becomes too excessive, so consider the following: if you want a quick fix you can ask for rebalanced Overextended stats, but if you want a permanent fix you ask for line-of-sight on abilities. Of the things people criticize Warframe for, it is how boring farming gameplay is. We just nuke everything, that's all we need. Sure the developers introduced enemies with tons of armor, ability nullification, extreme damage output, and ways to steal player energy, but in the end we'll figure out a way to nuke through walls to kill the majority of enemies, and deal with those rare special enemies with only a bit of effort. Line-of-sight is the kind of ability rework that would make Warframe play out more tactically.
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It's not a problem with Saryn as much as it is a problem with abilities and range. Playing Saryn without Overextended on her is really unimpressive--you really do need range mods on her to make her shine. The same can be said with Equinox and Volt nuke builds, so it is no surprise they also appear frequently in ESO. Equinox bounces charged Maims off herself in missions where multiple players use her the same way Nyx did before she was nerfed. We're just going to go on a nerf cycle frame after frame, as we usually do.
2 solutions, one fast and one proper.
The fast and cheap way is altering Overextended in a buff-balance from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range -20% strength. Player max range potential is limited while the mod gives proportionally better range for its strength negative.
The proper solution is giving all radial damage abilities line-of-sight like what was passed in Vivergate. People didn't want it back then because the syndicate grind was brutal as line-of-sight was being introduced, but the years have proven that DE would side with the players and reduce grind requirements when justified. We should accept that line-of-sight will help the game's lifespan and gameplay quality. Line-of-sight will limit such abilities from killing all enemies indiscriminately through walls to killing enemies who are within sight of the damage emitter within 5 seconds.
For direct damage radials like Discharge and Maim it would mean the frame has to be in visual range of the enemies it hits within 5 seconds. For Spores, it means an enemy that dies under the proper conditions needs to be within sight of another enemy. However, since Spores only spreads when killed by the Saryn player by some direct mode of damage besides the Spores themselves, it'll resolve Spore spread since if an enemy dies by Spores instead of Saryn's direct mode of attack in another form, the spores won't spread to any other enemy regardless of line-of-sight. Only enemy killed by the Saryn directly while also covered in spores will spread spores to enemies within vision of that enemy.
In short, line-of-sight is the proper way to balance damage radials. Digital Extremes has always been good to their players for mostly all concerns.
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In game design terms, player Warframe abilities are extremely powerful, so the Corpus' nullifying mechanics are the hard counter to players. They're glass cannons, able to dish out damage and debuff their enemies but not able to take much damage. The Corpus fight the Tenno on their own terms. That said, it feels balanced since Grineer have armor and Infested have powerful common heavy units.
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M E G A - M A P .
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3 hours ago, 0utlier said:
@MechaKnight, do you think that Rivens should never have been introduced in the first place then?
Yes. I wouldn't spend much time in detail on it now, but here's the intent versus execution in quick detail.
The developers recognized some weapons--usually older ones--are underpowered in the modern game meta. Thus, their intent was to release a class of mod that makes weak weapons very strong, and makes strong weapons only minorly better. This was the ultimate weapon in band-aid mod philosophy to test once and for all that most balance issues can be solved via a new mod. It failed badly because the developers underestimated some of the more underused weapons, and overestimated some of the popular weapons. A new meta arose from the mod balance, and an extremely volatile and costly new commodity was born. It was after the failure of rivens to balance the system and its fast permanence as a trade commodity that spurred the balance team to do the right thing and start learning their game's balance and fine-tuning every weapon in the game that came to mind. That said, some weapons were still forgotten, like the Stug.
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2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:
Nope, I would still say Saryn is OP, and I've done almost everything in the game, barring leveling a couple weapons I don't have. Segregating newbs from the vets isn't going to magically make broken press-4-to-win frame complaints disappear.
She's OP because she scales well with range, as with every other "overpowered" ability of the past before nerfs. Ember's Overheat is the most blatantly obvious balance against Overextended I've seen: the mod gives range in exchange for strength, so Overheat gives strength in exchange of range and efficiency. Since players have grown accustomed to modding near 280% range stat, Overheat kicks in and drops the player down to 140% range stat and halve her efficiency. Modern frames like Inaros, Harrow, Mesa, Revenant, and soon Garuda don't scale well with range, which combined with the smaller range magnitudes of Agility Drift and Augur Reach show the developers are concerned with allowing destructive warframe abilities to have too much range.
4 minutes ago, thez_ said:From what I saw, Saryn is really good at certain type of mission, but I wouldn't nerf it.
I think they should instead rework the resistence of the mobs.
They have done that. Lets address anti-ability enemies and entities in order.
- Energy Leech Eximus. Steals player energy.
- Doors with disruptors: inflicts magnetic procs, which remove player energy.
- The Nullifier. He creates an aura which disables abilities in its vicinity, and has capped damage intake so it would not be broken by single strong shots, but faster shots.
- The Bursa is a heavily durable enemy created to tank frontal damage, and is generally durable all-around so it effectively resists ability damage simply by resisting any damage. Some variants lob nullifying grenades that nullify abilities. Their damage output is strong.
- The Comba and Scrambus have helmets which disable abilities in a variety of ways. They are given powerful weapons in order to destroy frames--hopefully the frames that are best at using radial powers are also the weakest ones, so this enemy hopes.
- The Juggernaut takes extremely little damage except for its weak points, which are nearly impossible to target with an ability. Thus, you use your weapons on it instead.
- The Nox is designed to take less damage from any point except its head. Most abilities target the torso instead of the head, thus this enemy resists damage from most abilities.
- Plains of Eidolon night water: inflicts mag proc, removes energy.
- Eidolons. Radial blast inflicts magnetic proc, removes energy.
The game has shaped up to resist abilities due to our relentless radial spam. When the developers failed to succeed in pushing line-of-sight, this was the alternative to engage players more.
I haven't even talked about current and future sentient enemies, which are surely designed to resist all kinds of strategies based around abilities and damage type status effects. The current trend for enemy design is to make them resistant to abilities, or resistant to damage which by proxy makes them resistant to abilities. Mechanisms of nullifying abilities or sapping energy will also become more common, as would very high damage output since it is a frame design trend that frames that are good at killing very quickly are not the best tanks.
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1 hour ago, Dabnician said:
Funny how you never mention any of the other corrupted mods or other frames like trinity that use over extended exclusively in the ev trim build to get that 12% duration and 280% range. You just keep throwing damage dealers in there, you want get rid of over extended you also get rid of energy vamp trinity builds also.
You never suggest something like reduce range in doors so over extended at say 300% is really 100% in doors and just be done with it. Then everyone can take a nerf in power when they have to start using it.
Just put Mr requirements on mods too so corrupt mods start at Mr 15 while we are at it
How about we just get rid of all mods then since we already destroying the game as it is
I would expect as much from a novice.
Yes, Energy Vampire gives us energy, as do energy orbs, Zenurik, Arcane Energize, consumable items, and some other abilities. Having infinite energy isn't the problem, what we tend to do with it is the problem.
Meanwhile I never said anything about getting rid of Overextended, you did. I wanted to buff it by making its proportion of given range much better compared to its strength penalty while opening new build possibilities in gaining duration and efficiency in exchange for strength. Changing Overextended as I mentioned would actually allow Trinity to give her teammates even more energy.
Your suggestion is very similar to the developer's Vivergate-era attempts at resolving excessive range issues via line-of-sight, in which warframes must have had visual of an enemy within 5 seconds before casting the ability to hit the enemy with the ability. It was a fairly apt and smart solution to range, but since this draft plan was released in the midst of one of the most grindy progression system in the game before it was toned down to be sensible, people didn't want ability balance since earning balanced was skewed against players before syndicate point rewards and costs were resolved.
Your other suggestions are frivolous and miss all logical validity, but it's okay--you're new to the forums, and you'll mature with the game over time.
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5 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:
... if we wanted, say, Excalibur to be on a similar level, what the devil do we do to get him there?
You weren't here for Excalibur 2.0 huh? People used Stretch and Overextended on his newly buffed Radial Javelin to boost its range to 58.75 meters, killing or stunning unlimited enemies within range, while being able to carry elemental buffs. A 1-forma normal Excalibur dominated every mission harder than Ember, Saryn, and Mesa combined to deal at least 85% of damage dealt in the mission. The only warframe remarkably close in destructive power at the time was Ash 2.0 with range-boosted Bladestorm to deal massive armor and shield ignoring damage for 25 hits, which meant either 25 enemies or any number of multiple hits on a smaller group of enemies, like 25 times on 1 enemy.
The community agreed via The Radial Address that do-everything abilities with massive range are just too powerful to justify. If you wanted to kill an enemy, protect yourself, protect teammates, or disable enemies via stun, Radial Javelin 2.0 did it all. This was scraped in Excalibur 3.0 where Radial Javelin was downgraded from 4th to 3rd, Blind was given more range over Radial Javelin, and he was given an awesome Exalted Blade which shreds crowds of enemies with a decent build.
Overall the community wants the game and characters to be fun to play. Out of all the possible stats players can add to their frame, range is the most anti-fun stat there is. Years ago Nova would kill an entire room after shooting one enemy once, Mag would delete enemies with shields, Ember would delete enemies if she got there first, Equinox deletes enemies after having a few enemies die in their proximity, Volt disintegrates all enemies in a sufficiently crowded room.
If we don't address the range stat we add to a long list of nerfed warframes, and ensure we nerf more frames in the future. Range stat is busted and needs to be balanced better. My suggestion of a balance-buff on Overextended with new corrupted mods is a good, easy, and fast first step. A greater solution would come after that.
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8 hours ago, 0utlier said:
...alternative way of making each frame unique for each player...
Hah, "unique." You mean inferior if you don't participate in the grueling grind that will push many people to quit the game, probably including yourself. We want to play a fun action game, not recreate the slavery of a fake economy in the style of EVE online. Warframe is a game that satisfies many refuges spurned by overly brutal grind farms. Why bring the issue here?
Warframe's grind is vastly more generous than many other games, and irresponsibly giving us more power already magnifies the common issue that enemies on the standard solar system are so weak that we don't know if we deal good damage or not because they're dead anyway.
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We nerfed yet another frame radial ability again because players keep sticking Overextended in their builds to about double or triple their range per loadout so they can hit the entire room of enemies before they get the chance to see you. Ash, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Nova, Nyx, and more frames were and will be nerfed because we like to use excessive range to nullify enemy challenge, go on the forums to complain about challenge or killstealing, then complain some more when the developers took action to address the problem everyone was complaining about because players can't resist slotting that mod.
Change Overextended from +90% range and -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength. Then add either a duration or efficiency mod that reduces strength as a penalty. Call the new mod "Exhausted Prowess" (efficiency) or "Exhausted Endurance" (duration). The result is improved build variety, buffed Overextended with better proportions to penalties and the same absolute stat points rewarded. Then the developers can stop putting a frame nerf on their schedule as often while they address greater core issues behind why players don't find enemy combat fulfilling.
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We're going to keep nerfing warframes because of Overextended aren't we? That one mod almost doubles your range by itself and about triples it when used along the other 3 mods, which is common because people live running long range stat on their frames, especially those that deal damage. Ash, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Nova, Nyx, and more had to hit the radial ability chopping block because we just can't stop running range mods to kill or stun everything preemptively through walls. How about we actually learn from the past and fix this before we nerf another frame and another in cycle?
Change Overextended from +90% range and -60% strength to +50% range and -20% strength. Then add either a duration or efficiency mod that reduces strength as a penalty. The result is improved build variety, buffed Overextended with better proportions to penalties and the same absolute stat points rewarded. Then the developers can stop putting a frame nerf on their schedule as often while they address greater core issues behind why players don't find enemy combat fulfilling.
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I agree. The developers' fear of balancing around mods seems to be holding back her potential in Tribute. Dust seems cool and would work somewhat like a crowd control ability for ranged units. Damage reflection practically never works so Thorns should be something else. Entangle is like a quarter of what Nova's Molecular Prime does. Full Moon seems okay, but companions are weak and the ability doesn't buff player warframes or operators so it does't have a decent niche either.
Things that Need Fixing
in General
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I feel like making a thread full of random things to fix is redundant to this forum board full of topics made for random things to fix.