(PSN)Bobtm0
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Posts posted by (PSN)Bobtm0
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When I read the thread title I was like "Aw hell no." Then I read the first post and was like "That's actually completely reasonable and I agree".
For what it's worth, you've got a +1 from me here. Despite the fact that I'm the kind of player who always buys slots to keep everything anyways, I still think this is a good idea.
Edited to fix idiot style grammar mistake.
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Yes, because it shows there is build diversity. It is literally a build I made around dying, killing, raging and dying again, all without actually every bleeding out. Plus, it proves you can have a tank character not build around health gating or moxxi guns. It is no worse than a Rhino or Trinity tank in WF, and I am not even a big fan of BL2.
Not in a real way though, Borderlands 2 almost has less build diversity than Warframe... which is a pretty nasty thing to say. The whole of that build needed RtB as a crutch, meaning there weren't other options to mess with. He'd have literally been at the end of his first set of no-respawn usage before even reaching the sub-boss without RtB at all.
It's kind of the similar type of situation that almost exists in Warframe, just replace moxxi guns with Team Health Restores and replace the in-build character heal skills with existing frame healing skills. If you don't have a healing frame(character) you rely on the restores(moxxi guns) to get your health back. If you have neither you'll likely be pushing up daisies before too long if the game doesn't allow damage avoidance through mobility.
That style of gameplay balance starts relying on cheap shots and artificial difficulty way more often, which is why I'm so heavily against it. Is that to say that Slash and Toxin are perfectly fine as is and need no changes at all? Not really, but as to what those changes could be is up for debate. Unlike many in this thread, I'm fully okay with hits having a chance to result in a status effect, but I'd prefer the possible effects of any given attack to not be random. That type of system forced players to take each attack seriously, as any could potentially result in a hampering effect.
My home court is one where mobility is king, where dodging allows a player to massively increase their survivability and a failure to do so equates to a likely rapid death. Honestly, I see a build-up system as a direct threat to that style of gameplay, as it'll increase the likelihood of unavoidable attacks being implemented at some point.
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Health gating was fine, and there is a mod in WF that functions the same way. People just exploited Health Gating for tanking purposes. Building for low health was just more tanking that building for high health. And like in WF, utility > damage/defense. You shouldn't be picking your shield based on capacity. You should be picking it based on utility. You didn't need Moxxi guns to survive either.
So a video of a player who literally runs in a straight line, never tries even slightly to avoid damage or play marginally intelligently, and dies repeatedly, upon repeatedly, upon repeatedly, upon repeatedly is a good thing?
You and I pretty much couldn't disagree anymore than we do on literal core elements of gameplay it would seem. If Warframe ever starts to turn into a train wreck like that, I'm out. That's the polar opposite of skilled play in my opinion.
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Health gating was a good thing in BL2 though.
Warframe already has gear checks too, there is currently very little skill involved.
Again, they are not in competition or even equal. Shield are there to be sacrificed in the protection of health. I am not even saying that direct to health (D2HP) damage should be removed. I am saying that it should have a buffer that allows avoidance through skilled play. If anything, that would lead to more diverse builds.
To note the underlined/bolded part; You're dead to me. :p
Healtgating is a terrible mechanic which requires no skill at all. It's literally just getting hit by an undodgable attack that does more than enough damage to auto-kill any player regardless of defensive setup. It literally shoehorns everyone into being straight forced into the same exact builds or they cannot ever win regardless of skill. No way to regen HP to above healthgate levels = auto-death without any regards to player skill. Any schmuck with that Moxxi revolver could just shoot things and never die. Building for either shields or HP was actually non-conductive in that game due to a combination of bad scaling and undodgable healthgate stuff.
It's the direct opposite of skilled play.
A buffer does nothing to promote build diversity at all though, so that's just absurd to say. Making health damage infinitely less likely to occur removes any need to ever build health.
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Wrong, my stance has always been that health damage should always be a punishment, but for that to be fair, you have to be able to avoid it 100% through skilled enough play.
Shields are not going to break on the first hit until you get to very high-leveled content. That should also be fixed, but that is an issue for another thread.
You and I just come from a different school of thought it would seem then. I see all damage as a punishment, doesn't matter what it hits of mine, it shouldn't have hit it to begin with.
As a minor sidebar, this is why I hate practically every turn-based RPG ever made. They don't allow for damage avoidance through skill almost ever.
I'm really glad that, so far, Warframe doesn't have the same nonsense garbage gear check attacks that came to the forefront of things in Borderlands 2. As much as I liked the first game of that series, the second's endgame was Gearchecks and Healthgating, the game.
Edit for the above note; Well that's all well and good, but wouldn't it be nice if there was some way to increase one's HP to make the chances of dying from HP damage lessened? If only such a build option existed... eh, oh well.
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Vitality mods should be a crutch for bad players or tanks only.
Now hold up there hoss, literally you, and everyone, and everyone's grandmoa has been practically on my case for saying "If you're getting hit so much that procs are bothersome, you are playing poorly." and now you're utilizing the same exact argument to say that Health mods shouldn't be relevant?
That's just.... backwards as all get out.
Shield mods already are a crutch for bad players and tanks, so that's nonsense.
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My thoughts; No, don't increase it's damage at all. Expecting the damaging aspects of a 1 skill which also possesses some utility to outright kill enemies in upper level content is silly. It's not just silly either, it's flat out a bad idea.
They're effectively light damage auto-turrets which have the potential to stun targets with a shock proc, and you can place a mountain of them all over the place. Wanna amp up that burst that they can deal? Then do as mentioned above and stack them. Stacking them on teammates, Sentinels, or Kubrows (which I'm ashamed never dawned on me till KingTaro mentioned it) allows for a roaming shock cannon.
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Health and shields are not in a competition.
They should be though, that's what creates build diversity all in all, having numerous competitive and attractive to use stats. Currently, that ever impending threat of shield surpassing damage does warrant one to take at least a cursory glance at the health based mods but there's still that overarching issue of the general "wonkiness" involved with regaining HP in Warframe.
There needs to be concrete reasons to build for different things, aka stats being competitive.
In the early game progression in Warframe players generally get both Vitality and Redirection very early (aren't both now guaranteed in broken variants on PC?) and end up utilizing both because of a lack of mods; Why not throw everything you have on? Well move forward and players will progress, that's when they clearly note the apparent lack of reasonably available HP restorative methods, in tandem they'll acquire more varied mods for their frame that also compete for mod slots. It's not all too surprising that many players will outright dump HP boosting mods in this scenario as they'll have come to rely on their shielding.
Then late-game comes along and the threat which is provided by shield surpassing damage is quite high, incurring such hits can cause one's HP values to nosedive rather swiftly. There are options players can take at this point such as utilizing the various Health Restore items of course which make building HP feel more viable again, but is it (as Luke very appropriately put it) attractive to the player?
Short answer; No, it definitely isn't. Up until the Life Strike mod was added most frames were effectively incapable of restoring their HP sometimes at all, this is troublesome of course.
Allowing people to heal too readily is bad as well of course, but what kind of balance can be worked towards which would incentivize using HP versus just piling up on Shielding? The horrible but easy solution (aka terrible idea) would be to doing things like toning down shield regen speed... but as said that's pretty much the worst route. There is one thing that Shields have which HP doesn't have any counter for however, something that makes choosing them immensely more attractive in the long run, the Guardian Sentinel precept. Having a double-sized burst survivability tool is nothing to sneeze at, and makes building for HP seem laughable in comparison to all but the most tankiest of frames.
So, a sort of HP restorative Sentinel mod would, in theory aid in this situation. However it'd be a fine line to walk in finding out how it could/should work to prevent it from being too strong but not so weak as to be pointless. An easy solution is to have it cooldown based, like many precepts, and then make it restore a % based off of the frame's current max HP. As well as making the trigger based off of a % of the frame's current max HP.
Then again, that solution ignores Kubrows... but thus far I've yet to see much that incentivizes their use anyways.
So, a TL;DR for those so inclined. Let's try and retweak the balancing disparity between HP and Shield rather than just backpedal even harder into Shield territory. [size=1]So yeah, longwinded way of saying I still think a build-up system is dumb.[/size]
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Should I find it odd that I'm the only person that doesn't like this idea? So throw a .01% No onto the veritable pile of yes this thought is likely to obtain.
Potential issue this could cause that the current system... doesn't kinda; Currently if you aim chest/head high on a mid-long range target but don't aim correctly the ability just doesn't happen (BEEP) no harm, just re-aim and fire again immediately. This suggestion and that happens, projected targeting style flies way out to another group of way the far hell past where you wanted to go and slaps you next to >insert dangerous Eximi here< that you definitely didn't want to go to.
I dig the precise aim abilities as they are. So if they do enact something like this, I'd just pray that it were a toggle so I don't have to suffer.
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For me it's a tie/toss up between two. Excal for Radial Blinding all the things, and Nyx for Chaos'ing all the things.
If forced to pick one, I'd roll Excalibur because he's a tad more reliable generally, in my opinion. He's like an off switch for combat.
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But for your second point i don't really understand.. unranked variants of some mods? maybe some mods like fleeting expertise and such arent the best when maxed, because of the hard caps, but i never saw anyone not max an abilitty mod
It's not common, but people do these sorts of things. There's folks who'll run minimum duration Blessing by specifically using an unranked version, meaning it's got the same power as normal Blessing but less duration for more spammability if that's their thing.
My personal favorite is using an unranked Wormhole for those occasions where I feel like Nova'ing around the map at warp speed. Otherwise there'd be gobs of annoying portals cluttering the map and getting in the way of my teammates... or just throwing enemies up into the sky at random.
Edit; Cooldowns are a whole nother kettle of fish, that's.... well interesting but it'd need a lot of thought to not be implemented horribly.
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But then what happens to those four mod slots? If we're just given those spare four slots to do with as we wish it'll give us too much build room(too easy to be op), but if those slots are taken away you're simply removing build diversity with no benefit.
Beyond that, what about people who like unranked variants of some mods for specific reasons?
Basically, if it wasn't already obvious, I'm totally not cool with this idea.
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His weakness is movement, and dying. So stay mobile and kill him, then you'll be fine.
Stalker is literally an abysmal shot, it may take some trial and error (aka, getting killified) if you've not gotten the hang of dodging incoming attacks but once you've gotten that sorted out you can play ring around the open air with him and laugh while he repeatedly lowers his overall accuracy rating by a lot and a half.
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prove it, run an survival up to 40th level solo and record it, if you're as good as you claim you are and enemies can't track and insta hit, easy peasy right?
until then not buying one word. most likely you always group, do lousy damage so no ag or very little so they aren't targeting you anyway. all your dodging and bobbing and weaving means no output. hence, no ag generation. are you just trolling everyone to seem some kind of pro?
When, in all my longwindedness, did I ever claim to be some sort of pro?
Seriously, I'm not special (2nd or 3rd time I've said this in this thread), I'm not impeccably skilled, or some kind of gaming god or anything even slightly of the sort. All I've done is observe our enemies' AI behaviors and derived movement strategies accordingly, it isn't some amazing skill by any stretch.
All the proof just exists in the game itself. Why would I record 40 minutes of gameplay which (with my slow upload) would take ages to actually upload when all that is needed is just for people to quit tanking shots with their faces and just try to move? This isn't rocket surgery, it's just a basic thought process.
Once you learn what the enemies' turn speed cap is you just need to factor that against your current distance from them and then move faster than that to either the left or right. The closer you are to them the less speed that is needed to outpace their turn speed, and render 100% of their shots as a miss. Single engagements are obviously easy as pie because of this, but against multiple foes you'll need to actively calculate all of their lines of fire and turning speeds simultaneously.
Enemies in Warframe do not react instantly to players, there's always a slight delay in their actions. That delay is the time one needs to utilize to decide in what way they need to move to avoid eating bullets. Heck in the video just released for the Quanta Nyx evades a few shots from a Grineer's Hind at the very beginning of the video, ending up being hit by at least one round towards the end of the burst (which scores a proc) due to the Nyx not having moved at a good angle.
If our enemies were aimbots as so many blindly assume them to be, we'd all be taking damage constantly without any means of surviving beyond constant skill-spam.
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Edit;
Basically what I've been trying, and seemingly failing, to get across is just this. People need to drop this preconceived notion that dodging is impossible when hitscan rounds are being used. Lots of games have hitscan rounds both being used by players fighting other players and by computers shooting at players, and people aren't infinitely riddled with bullet holes in such games. This is specifically because players aren't aimbots, and computers aren't allowed to be aimbots by the devs. Otherwise there's be a veritable landslide of literally impossible to win games.
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I came in here thinking, yes please. Then I saw this;
The Ripper = Miter
and now I'm sad.
Jokes aside, I'd totally dig having a Translocater. Granted it would be ridiculously useful it'd force someone to give up one of their weapon slots, so that's A-Okay in my book.
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Well, Mak beat me to the point here, but I'm gonna roll with this anyways.
Dodging and hitscan are not compatible. You can't dodge to 100% negate procs, no matter how good you are.If you truly believe this, then you seriously need to pay a lot better attention to how our enemies act and react. Our foes are not aimbots at all, ever, at any level of play within Warframe. The foes in this game quite literally have capped turning speed, this is the same as facing someone in a PvP game who has their turn sensitivity set at the lowest possible level. Hitscan is irrelevant if someone can never get their crosshairs on you.
Dodging works in Warframe, this is a straight up, non-debatable fact. This is literally the core reason of why I'm explicitly against a build-up system. I'll never be proced ever again should a build-up system be enacted because our enemies have abysmal reaction times.
It is completely possible to sprint into a Grineer filled room and zip through it wholly unscathed by moving in a way which prevents them from placing their crosshairs upon you.
There isn't a single one of my frames which have these following mods on their primary(serious) builds; Vitality, Redirection, Vigor, Steel Fiber. The only time I waste time with those mods is if I feel like making a silly/goofy build for the sake of doing something less than ... well less than intelligent. I run without those mods because I can more than mitigate damage enough through dodging alone to handle practically anything the game throws at me, having CC skills as a backup for when I inevitably screw up.
If dodging didn't work, I'd die constantly due to my near blatant refusal to utilize the core defensive mods.
Here's the simple thing, people have used Redirection too darn much, it's almost as bad as playing Rhino in a way as doing both of these things allots the user with a much larger than ever should be necessary safety net. Why dodge if you can eat tons of bullets? That's the mentality that utilizing Redirection causes in players, it's why I won't let myself use the mod as it'll only serve to dull my skills.
Our foes' attacks are just far too easy to dodge for a build-up system to work as far as I'm concerned. It's literally the same as removing all procs from the game indefinitely from where I'm standing, and I'm totally against removing the procs from the game.
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Oh man here we go again. I was kinda happy this was buried under 200 notifications.
Dodging only lowers chance of getting hit, ergo, it doesn't prevent procs.
No, no, slash is fine. Toxic is fine. The delivery method is not. Why? Because it's random, not skill based.
That's all there is to it.
Proper dodging = never getting hit = never getting proced. So I'm still failing to understand what you're getting at here. Getting hit literally means you did not dodge, thusly the possibility of being proced exists only because of the player's failure to... well dodge.
Also, there are random damage things in more games than I can count over the years. Attacks which have a chance (not guarantee, not buildup) of poisoning players have existed in many games, it's not new.
By proxy, if enemy randomized damages are wrong, why are player randomized damages fine? Crits should be build up too I suppose?
Unlike a majority of folks in this thread, I'm completely okay with procs occurring on a random chance system. I don't quite like how Slash comes from practically any source but that's a dead horse I've beaten quite handily by this point. Random procs equates to the danger of the unknown, they force players to take every single attack seriously because one never knows which one may prove fatal.
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To Renegade: It's not the Crewmen, I meant the Railgun Moas, they're an actual dangerous sniper unit. Half the time I almost forget the Sniper Crewmen are a thing with how much I'm hit by their shots (read never).
Your ad hominem fallacies aside, you are still wrong. It is not pointless, and we have already explained why in this thread.
Here's the thing, you've explained nothing of the sort. The fact, yes fact, that dodging works invalidates every bogus claim that it doesn't. Player failure to accomplish a task does not equate to a task being impossible. Maybe you're all saying dodging is too hard? That's debatable of course, but saying it's impossible is a flat out lie.
Every single one of you that's argued against me is only admitting you cannot dodge, not that dodging doesn't work. That's simply all there is to it.
You don't like Slash, you don't like Toxin, that's fine. But not everyone is automatically dying left and right from these mechanics. Some do die, some do not, otherwise this wouldn't even be a back and forth with people chiming in on both sides.
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No worries about the lack of links Aglethe, info is what I wanted and info is what you're throwing my way so that's gnarly.
I've never heard of the Logitech G13, but I'm not a big fan of modifying stuff, my luck and skill with physical components has always been pretty lousy so I tend to avoid that. That isn't to say I won't look into it though, because that sounds cool. My brother actually has an Orb Weaver, and while it does look interesting it's a tad shy of what I'm wanting in some ways, which is why this topic arose.
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Minimizing damage recieved is up to the player. Getting hit is not. Poor choices and reactions have nothing to do with it.
And yet I'm constantly dodging enemy attacks in Warframe, regardless of the faction I'm currently facing.
Grineer shots are the hardest to dodge, they're an incredibly unforgiving faction but it's still completely possible to dodge incoming Grineer fire. Just move fast and in appropriate directions and you'll avoid their shots.
Corpus shots are immensely easy to dodge, they're a very forgiving faction so dodging all their incoming fire is very easy. However each individual shot from them is more dangerous, plus their snipers can shoot through walls/pillars.
Infested....... Pfft, hahahaha. Granted they've finally been buffed to not be a complete joke on the PC, the only actual new attack any of them gained was the Ancients' new pull.
So if I'm able to react in time to dodge, and choose the appropriate method to do so and succeed? Pretty sure reaction and choice are entirely at the core of this issue.
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Just a short sidebar; Yes, Slash is still random and that's not good, but this whole crowd of "dodging doesn't work" is just getting out of hand. People not knowing how to dodge doesn't mean it's impossible.
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This is not a game in which you approach enemies one at a time. Getting hit is not up to the player.
Because you totally get approached by foes one at a time in the Devil May Cry series.
Because you totally get approached by foes one at a time in Godhand.
Because you totally get approached by foes one at a time in (practically every action game ever)
Because you totally get approached by foes one at a time in (practically every FPS & 3rd PS ever)
Getting hit is entirely up to the player. Having too slow of reaction times and poor choices of reactions doesn't mean it isn't one's fault.
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Surgical tactical strikes to take off some pressure for the team.
Yeah, that's a good Ash... aka a unicorn as per my prior statement. Every Ash I actually encounter is either a wannabe Stalker decked out in all black with red energy, or a wannabe Snake Eyes, pure white and equally useless.
It's not Ash's fault he attracts terrible players. Okay well it kinda is, but I don't blame him for it. Okay well I kinda do, but I still recognize Ash's strengths and respect them.
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Also, as a person who's building Ash right now and is usually "big guns and lots of very loud noise" instead of stealth, is Ash really that bad?
I'll just squash this notion before it gets out of hand. Ash is by no means bad, but he's inflexible. If you're not going to play him as a brawler/assassin type, you're not going to be accomplishing anything that couldn't be done better by any other frame.
Ash is very restrictive, but he's solid for his role most definitely. Be aggressive, know how to get in and be quick about hitting enemies. Think of Ash as a sort of ninja who did way too much bodybuilding and is now pretty buff.
My dislike of Ash stems from how many players try and fail miserably to play him to the wrong roles, ending up being nothing but dead weight to any given team.
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Getting hit with slash/toxic is not a choice. In the same sense that getting hit isn't a choice.
But, getting hit is up to the player. Failure to dodge = get hit. This game doesn't do bogus undodgeable attacks like many do, so it's always up to the players whether or not they'll be stricken by foes.
Sure, sometimes it gets ludicrously difficult to dodge all the things, but that's kind of the point of difficulty, being hard.
Slash And Toxic Are Bad Mechanics
in General
Posted
It's very close to what we have, but with a few small yet fundamental differences. Currently practically every bullet has a chance to inflict Bleed, or of course it could do one of the other two physical status effects.
Basically, I would want that variable normalized. Bleed only comes from sources X, V, and R. Puncture only comes from sources B, D, and L, Impact only comes from sources C, G, and M, ect. This is already the case for our foes who deal elemental damages as guns with innate elements that our foes utilize currently come in full 1-element only damages.
I like that every individual attack could indeed the the one to inflict a status effect. I just want the status effect possibly given to be static.