ThatOddDeer
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Posts posted by ThatOddDeer
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FINALLY I CAN REST PEACEFULLY
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4
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Still no fix for this frame-ruining bug
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Saryn's toxic lash does not transfer the intended amount of toxin damage in the form of the proc as listed under spore when...
"If an infected enemy is being damaged by a Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the Toxin proc added to its burst damage as Viral damage with a 100% status chance for Viral and Toxin effects."
Resulting in a spread toxin proc using what appears to be the damage of spore as modified by your power strength.
This is a stark comparison to when my melee is hitting for over 30,000 and the toxin component is far far higher than the base damage of spore.
However, this problem exists almost exclusively in actual missions and toxic lash and spore work mostly fine in the simulacrum. The effects are most prominent in an endless mission once enemies reach sortie levels and survive the viral explosion detailed above (which doesn't scale with the ever-increasing base damage of my melee as my combo counter rises) to notice the toxin procs not scaling.
I have attached a Video demonstrating this.in the simulacrum, and will provide further evidence of saryn's toxic lash not working on the kuva fortress for example.
Here's more proof. You just have to look at the numbers after I more-than-overkill enemies. Sorry about the poor quality, still new to recording longer, frame-intensive clips with OBS.
You should be able to see that enemies that were inflicted with spores from enemies that were over-killed had tiny-itty-bitty toxin procs.
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Just now, Xylyssa said:
At least Saryn isn't alone in the trash bin.
Do you guys think they'll ever fix Molt's scaling, add Regen. Molt as part of the base ability, or fix the broken synergy between her abilities? :(
I maintain that hope. Otherwise i'd probably just vendor my saryn knowing if they'd never touch her.
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2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:
BS isn't one of the most powerful abilities in the game? I'd say the cost nerf is warranted (also keep in mind that the cost is reduced against small groups.) His other abilities have only been buffed, as well.
Bladestorm in it's current state is an energy hog more than miasma is and that's saying something.
The smokescreen changes just make it look like a worse version of invisibility, still a welcomed buff.
Teleport's changes are good and makes it his best ability.
The rework is a step in the right direction but still needs more work, just like saryn.
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7 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:
My poor afk-cutscene got removed, boo-hoo.
I'm fine with it being more interactive, that was a necessary change.
However, it's power and damage per energy spent is so abyssmal now and the rest of his abilities are so lack-luster (3 is okay but is outclassed by a large amount of abilties) that his kit as a whole is massively undertuned.
At least saryn has a few passable half-abilties and can cheese low level enemies, ash really has nothing outside smoke shadow, which is a cutrate stealth arrow.
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5 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:
Wait until you've seen what they just did to Ash.
I feel for all Ash Mains.
My condolences to you all
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1 hour ago, polarity said:
Sorry, but all of that is based on the assumption that the numbers shown over enemies in the UI, accurately represent what's going on with damage calculations, when there is a world of difference between processing speed and accuracy, between the game's core, and its UI.
Anyone who's taken both a lanka and an ignis to high level content would tell you that the ignis is the stronger weapon given enough targets, and when used correctly (spread spores and toxin across all targets, rather than focusing on just the ones in front of you). And as for your claim that it doesn't scale, have you used it against level 9999 enemies? Because I have, resulting in 81% damage done, in a group with a maxed out Ash.Game doesn't track overkill damage. Using an ignis is just, pardon the WoW analogy, padding the meters without actually contributing anything.
The ignis also has very low instances of damage, meaning the only toxin proc you spread (as you are limited to 1 due to how spore is coded) is absolutely abyssmal; which is good if you're trying to have a big epeen but be useless to the group.
If you want a good measure of usefulness, look at enemies killed.
As for your level 9999 example, I was there for that lovely event, I was way more useful shelving my saryn and going oberon, for the luls as I enjoy messing around with my friends while still pushing my hardest, to provide CC and more eHP reduction via smite infusion than my saryn could ever hope to provide.
As for 'beating' an ash against level 9999 enemies. Of course a better frame would. Ash gets locked to 18 targets, dealing less than .1% of their HP each swing, locked there as he deals next to no damage as you contribute piddly damage thinking you're hot S#&$.
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25 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
Hmmm. Ok, so how about this for some ideas:
Remove the blocking damage reduction from Toxic Lash, and give it some form of buff for ranged weapons as well, as you say, not identical to the melee effect, but some way to deal and spread toxin damage at range.
Make Molt a duration based damage reduction ability, when turned on you grow a skin that either increases armor or decreases damage taken. When the ability ends, is toggled off, or is dispelled, the skin is shed leaving behind the classic molt we have now, this molt will have health based on the amount of damage you took for the duration of the ability.
I think it would be simply easier to add the snowglobe treatment to molt and make toxic lash damage reduction. not that these aren't good ideas in and of themselves, instead of just transposing ability intentions from one to another.
As for making toxic lash affect guns? It was asked for constantly during the work-stages of the rework and during the feedback portion. It fell on deaf ears.
Instead of asking for something unlikely and against the 'vision' of the frame that DE has in mind, why not suggest QoL changes and buffs to make her intended role possible without outside sources like naramon, lifestrike or CC cheese.
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10 minutes ago, taiiat said:
Molt only scales with Power Strength. and it only increases the Health. Survivability Mods don't affect it.
i'm fully aware, she was designed that way from the start, in U7. when i started using the Warframe.
it should do something for Guns, i'm not expecting it to rival Melee or be a core part of the Warframe. but it should do something.I meant inherit it as a part of its HP, you can see shields if you aim at it. I did not mean to say that it took shields into it's hp calculations.
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6 minutes ago, taiiat said:
i'm afraid all of your claims in the OP are incorrect.
infact, Saryn needs some rework stuff because.... of gamebreaking Exploits of dealing nigh infinite Damage she performs. plus minor issues.
but is still an effective Warframe outside of that. you won't hear that much because the Community for this game isn't a good source for understanding game mechanics.outside of Exploits, issues are relatively minor and mostly appear vs low Level Enemies, which i don't find too horrible really, as Saryn has an inverse scaling with Enemies unlike most Warframes - the higher Level Enemies are, the more powerful Saryn is. which is quite different and is... interesting.
- biggest issues in Gameplay could be that the Blocking Bonus is not useful since you can't do anything other than Block at the same time - and is much better off as a lower value, Damage Reduction. which would be an opportunity for Art to make some really f...in' sweet looking 'Scale Armor' to help reinforce the snake side of Saryns' theme. since apparently people can't find it even though it's an even 50/50 between Venomous Snake and Poisonous Flower.
- and that Saryn lost 25 Health for no good reason, because EHP assumes everyone uses Regenerative Molt - which is ridiculous as while many choose to use it, if you assume everyone will to the point you change balance around it, then clearly it should be default functionality.
- and that you're rewarded kind've eh for stacking Toxin Status, rather than the other way to utilize it.
- and that Molt would be better off costing 30-40E.
- and that Miasma leaves much to be desired, as it is expensive yet only Stuns for a few seconds, while adding more DoT on top of everything else (not a bad thing though). the only CC Ability Saryn has is extremely short in length. and only has interaction for increasing Damage (to pretty good levels but still), not anything else about it.
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and that the Shields and Shield Recharge Speed doesn't scale on Molt, only Health.
- (alternatively new thing for me to write down, would be neat if Molt got Healed every time Spores spread from elsewhere to it)
- Toxic Lash in general while neat doesn't do anything interesting for Guns, would be nice if did. definitely different functionality than for Melee to keep both useful.
Just a few small corrections.
Due to intended limiters, you're not rewarded for stacking toxin because it just doesn't work, intended or a bug no comment on it from devleopers.
Miasma's stun ranges from 0 seconds to 4 seconds because it depends on enemy animations for CC duration. Also it does less damage per energy than non-nuke spells of 'weaker' frames.
Molt does inherit shields but does not inherit armor, nor any scaling like tectonics or snowglobe.
What you've mentioned about toxic lash is spot on other than that it will never affect guns. DE has envisioned her as a melee-based caster frame (and she's too frail for that against any reasonable threat like t4 void or level 100+ enemies that just tear through her) and that's not changing :/
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6 minutes ago, Uan91 said:
I perfectly do and i love her like this. Even because i know how and when use her.
You can love her, but she doesn't work as advertised. Her only valid mechanic is abusing a non-existent refresh rate. Otherwise she's just a cut-rate worse version of banshee/nova and is outclassed in her own niche by oberon.
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4 minutes ago, CoRRh said:
That's not how it works at all.
If you had 400% more damage, would that mean the enemy just dies the moment a bullet touches it? By your explanation, 400% more damage would be equivalent to cutting the enemies hp by 100%.
Upping the weapon's damage isn't scaled by the enemies' HP. It's scaled by the weapons original damage. If you had a weapon do 40 damage, a 300% increase is only 120 damage, which is wholly short of the half of the thousands of health an enemy can have.
"If that augment didn't exist i would never have a reason to ever press 2. That's not balanced at all."
Balance isn't based off of personal preference.
Molt does damage, has a 100% chance to proc all enemies with toxin in its' area when it explodes, spores cast on molt use up 50% less energy and (from the wiki):
Miasma will detonate Molt if its within range, and Molt's explosion will occur before Miasma's first instance of damage. Miasma's damage will be increased depending on the percentage of Molt's lost hitpoints when detonated and depending on Power Strength.
Miasma deals an additional 100% damage to enemies affected by Toxin status effects including those produced by Molt.
What you're missing is the TTK equation.
If it takes 50 bullets to kill an enemy and you apply viral, it now takes 25 bullets.
If you do 300% more damage it now takes 12.5, or 13 bullets on average, to kill the target.
This will continue to be true regardless of how high the enemy's eHP.
As for molt's uselessness, it might have those 'uses' but that's the same thing as saying riftwalk/limbo as a whole has a 'use' other than annoying teammates and complicating missions.
I'd rather have that energy for spore/toxic lash, channel blocking or lord forbid miasma if the augment wasn't a thing.
That's not opinion, it's opportunity cost and molt is never the right choice.
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1 minute ago, Uan91 said:
Why everyone keeps to ask for rework for a warframe when yu don't know how to use it?
BEFORE ASKING THIS, LEARN TO BUILD A WARFRAME.
Thank you.
It's less that and more they now know how bad she is and how to make most of her S#&$ty situation.
I'm inclined to believe you have no idea how her kit even functions.
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4 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
Regenerative Molt really should be baseline, given that her HP was reduced because of the existence of Regenerative Molt.
Just like Ironclad Charge should be baseline. =/
Or at least iron shrapnel, I can see one or the either being baseline.
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3 minutes ago, CoRRh said:
A 300% bonus damage to weps is cool and all, but is not nearly as encompassing as a full map coverage of halved eHP. You're limited to what you can shoot. Unfortunately for that idea, this is a horde shooter. The scaling of the viral proc is limited to how high the enemy can rise in eHP, which is currently limitless, as far as we know. A weapon's damage on the other hand, is completely limited to how much you can mod it. CC and AOE is all important in anything late game. To compensate for the limited AOE the average weapon would do, you'd have to go for more powerful weapons, which turns this into a situation of needing meta weapons, which is one of the reasons you're citing as Saryn having uselessness.
Ima stop you right there as it's aparent you're not 100% right on how bonus damage works.
Dealing 100% more damage, which base oberon augment does, is the same as viral proc, halved eHP.
Dealing 300% more damage is the same as cutting an enemy's hp by 75% and it goes above that because you can mod a weapon for viral and make a saryn's spore completely redudant.
Also when it comes to regenerative molt. If that augment didn't exist i would never have a reason to ever press 2. That's not balanced at all.
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Just now, Gelkor said:
I guess I don't consider "not being the best" = "dog tier."
Then again, I also play solo a lot and when I do group, I don't feel the need to justify anything I do to the group that I usually carry anyways, no matter the frame.
But I may just be dead inside after my favorite frame from when I started 3 years ago is universally reviled as the "noob frame" despite bringing the strongest universal damage buff and reliable CC and durability.
Sorry to hear that buddy, but that doesn't mean saryn doesn't need work when she's worse than oberon; a frame constantly in demand of a rework.
As for best universal damage buff, I'd say it's the best as long as they're no fire immunity going around as buffember's ability to increase damage by 40x to all enemies is no joke.
But Rhino is definitely a king of all spades instead of a jack and far from a noob frame, he has both a high skill ceiling and a low skill floor.
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3 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
Well, there's meta farms, but the less said of that the better.
I'm just saying that most of the game isn't so tightly tuned that the degree of increase you bring from other frames is enough to make the difference between life and death. Unless you only have fun at being the best support/dps/trombone player/whatever, bring what you want and your skills to the table and it's fine, IMO.
It's a matter of personality differences is all. And for those that care strongly about helping their teammates, you can't justify saryn even with off meta builds like buffer ember.
Lots of people love being the best they can be, but when their favorite frame is just utter dog tier it can cause cognitive dissonance which can lead to stress and unhappiness.
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5 minutes ago, CoRRh said:
To each their own, I guess, but all I've ever had a problem with on her is energy efficiency, which means almost nothing with a good squad.
Otherwise, I've personally never even sensed the brute force thing you're speaking of. She takes more work than others, but even through all of the other frames I've made crazy build for, nothing outputs as much damage and kills as Saryn does. I'm in a clan where the player to hour ratio is like a 1 to 1100, and I out DPS and Kill just about any other frame/build I've faced. The only Frame that managed to beat me out on a level playing field on multiple occasions was an Ash.
I guess it just really depends on whether or not you have good squadmates. My friends and I all compliment each other. A trin for heals, a Saryn for the AOE DPS/Enemy Debuffs, a Nova for Extra damage to the enemy, and the fourth depends on the mission type. Nekros for Survival, and Frost for Defense. Literally never had to compensate for bad mechanics.
I just press 2, cast 1 on the 2, shoot it a bit to spread the spores, and press 4 when there's people getting too close.
If we're just aiming for peak efficiency, I'm not sure how you play Warframe without going insane. There's literally nothing in the game that does exactly what it should.
Also, what do you mean she's outclassed by Oberon? I saw your earlier explanation, but that didn't explain how he outclasses her. It just showed that there's another possible route that's honestly more limited than a Spore build.
By brute force we meant overcoming saryn's uselessness by bringing way better mods/weapons/pets/focus to make up for her glaring weaknesses.
As to what i mean about oberon is that his augment can be modded for over 300% bonus damage to all your weapons as pure radiation, which is the second best damage type for all factions, except pure infested; and this is comparing saryn with 1 augment, as her rework was balanced over always having Regen molt, to oberon with 1 augment.
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6 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
Oberon's Buff still works when you keep up viral, and when Rhino has Roar up, and when Nova has M. Primed. It's not always an either or.
Also why just Oberon, there's and augment like that for Ember, Frost, Volt, and Saryn too. Then again, all those augments only work on weapons and a few abilities. Rhino's buff works on everything, so you should use that instead of Oberon. But by that token if you want some reliable CC and to double team damage you should use Nova. You can go up the chain all the way to justify for or against taking a frame for the team.
IMO Viral Procs alone is enough of a justification for Saryn in a team, combined with above average durability to not be a liability to the team. Idunno, I weigh my mood and my team comp. If we already have a nova and a rhino, bringing Saryn could be icing on the cake. I could take my Buffberon but I actually don't like playing him as much due to poor range, he's only good for buffing and an unbeleivably pimptacular Phoenix Renewal due to his Strength and Duration. It also depends on the mission, if we are roving and exterminate or something, Spore is pretty good. If we have to hunker down, I may bring my Bunker-Buffer volt and keep allies shock-troopered and behind long lasting shields.
It's about opportunity cost, why take a saryn when i could take a bufferon, which adds radiation(which has better damage increases on health types than toxin and has a better status proc and most of your damage comes from weapons anyways so?) when you can mod for pure viral on your weapons; which you always should be and thus inflicting viral proc is pointless. And in terms of a better choice, you can take a banshee, or the secret OP buffer ember which can provide a flat 40x damage buff to her entire team that banshee needs 3 overlayed fuil power strength sonars to acheive. There is never a time when saryn is the best choice when ember can do her job, when oberon can do her job and banshee can do her job better while also offering more to the team than she could ever hope to do.
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2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
*shrug* She's fun to me but I don't play her all the time, I play a lot of frames to suit my moods at the time, or the mission, and/or my team-comp.
I'm a type A personality, I love to give a S#&$ about how useful i am, I can never justify bringing saryn other than "I can brute force my way through this, so i can take her even if she's outclassed by oberon"
Until I can justify bringing her for her merits alone, I will say that she needs further work
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2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
True, I did have top kills by quite a margin too. Usually I run bows and heavy melee, I just had to run the shotgun due to the sortie requirement. Hek, I use bows so much my number of hits landed on my profile is 1/3 that of one of my clan-mates who's been playing for a year, despite having about 10 times the kills. I don't care if it's overkill, headshot crits are satisfying.
If only saryn herself was satisfying to play as instead of just for her assets.
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2 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
I just punch things before they hit me. YOLO
#Maduraiway
I will say I was kinda surprised on one of the sorties the other day, it was the shotgun only interception sortie, built my Tainted Shell Boar to be a gas machine and proceeded to to do 80% dps with just that and spore. Whole team of well geared MR 22's too, really pissed off the Ash player. I don't even know how it worked, like I said, I usually go melee on Saryn. I think it might have been the tighter spread on the tainted shell though, I was going for individual spore pops instead of all at once.
There's also the fact that the game doesnt' count overkill damage, I usually overkill things with damage, so that means modding for things that do lots of small instances of damage over a wide area, such as spore and gas, means your EPEEN meter will be very high but y our actual usefulness will be much lower because you're not actually ending enemies' lives. I use enemies killed as a metric of contribution as its far easier to get damage done than kills.
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6 minutes ago, Gelkor said:
Heh, I suppose I will caveat that practically any time anyone says any frame is a dog turd and squishy, it's a frame that I can reliably perform well on and have no survivability problems.
So, Idunno, it either means things are balanced, or I at least have the mods, weapons, and reflexes to brute force my way through any of the content we have.
*shrug*
Except Limbo.
I won't even try to figure out how to play him.
F*** Limbo.
*proceeds to start researching Limbo*
I think we're both in the same boat of just brute forcing things, as saryn is at least innately durable enough to do that, and in my case I just shadowstep to make up for my frame's horrid eHP scaling in endgame endless.
Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0
in Developer Workshops
Posted · Edited by ThatOddDeer
forgot a thing
Now that my excited has calmed down a little, I foresee a few issues.
Toxic lash's blocking element still feels unnecessary, would suggest changing it to damage reduction while she has a melee equipped to differentiate when she's gunning or closing in for the kill and doesn't have to choose which half of the ability to use.
Secondly miasma feels even less important as an 'ultimate' compared to the new spores but its headed in a nice direction. Potentially allow it to CC in a more reliable way rather than the soft 'stagger' she currently has since it differs based on enemy animation types.