Ace4225
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Posts posted by Ace4225
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I was asuming that the player never stops to recover energy (siphon is slow and forces you to stop if you want to recover the lost energy), if you keep going then you will lose energy.
Not with a maxed Fleeting Expertise and Narrow-Minded. Right now, my Invisibility costs 13 energy and lasts for 22 seconds. Just with my own Energy Siphon, I recover 13 energy in about 19 seconds. (it's easy to see the numbers right now, since they're displayed in the HUD.) If I want to throw Radial Disarm into the mix, I simply add a maxed Over-Extended (since Disarm doesn't deal damage) and I can make up for the lost power range. Since I'll be able to infinitely recast Invisibilty, I only carry 1 health mod.
The logic of the skill will change completely and Loki by extension.
...Different is not worse. (but it will take him out of the OP range.) The way powers work in this game have already changed significantly a number of times; Ember's Overheat was replaced with Accelerant. Iron Skin was nerfed and changed (then buffed a little.) M-Prime was "nerfed." (lol) Radial Disarm was nerfed (it used to affect bosses. Ah, the glory days....)
Good players are flexible enough to work through the changes and compensate when something that was too strong gets reworked.
So "everyone whining about end-game for so long" equals to Loki's inv build needing changes?
No. I didn't intend to relate the two. I used that as a clear example of:
If the game is too easy, it gets boring and loses players.
So what you're saying basically is that because you already tried "virtually every frame in the game" and there's one you don't like automatically make's it unbalanced?
Maybe you didn't fully read the OP. In it, I mentioned that Loki is my favorite frame. (it has been since I first started playing this game over a year and a half ago.) I care enough about Loki that I want to see him in a good place.
When I say "easy to use" I'm specially referring to you. I'm not saying that Loki's easy to use in general.
O rly? :D
1- Place more cameras, but different cameras that detect inv players and launch anti-stealth grenades in the room to take your inv off. So you WON'T be able to run everywhere you want, you will need to pay attention to these cameras and those grenades.
2- Make special floors, in which if you step while being inv, they will stun you (or knock you down) and take your inv off. That will force players to move carefully throught those places.
3-Something already suggested, Special units with equipment to detect inv. players, they should use some radar pointing forward, if you run in front of them, you are seen and they can tag you so other enemies will know where you are, this could last 5 seconds or something like that.
4-Smart AI, recent changes improved, a little at least, as some enemies now will fire at you (it seems to be random, but some enemies do), improve their hiding behavior when they detect something is not ok, or maybe some of them can throw those anti-stealth grenades too. But these could show the player how long the "impact radius" is so they can try and avoid it (making them stop attacking enemies for a little time).
It sounds like you want a Super Mario Warframe. (But seriously, no.)
Remember my overbuffed-AI B scenario? This is it.
we're not going to agree anytime soon.
....as long as you keep using completely illogical arguments, you're right.
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1- Place more cameras, but different cameras that detect inv players and launch anti-stealth grenades in the room to take your inv off. So you WON'T be able to run everywhere you want, you will need to pay attention to these cameras and those grenades.
2- Make special floors, in which if you step while being inv, they will stun you (or knock you down) and take your inv off. That will force players to move carefully throught those places.
And you thought my suggestions were bad.........
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I won't be replaying about this anymore, I said what I had to say.
Cool story bro.
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Not being seen, and being able to avoid enemies more easily isn't surviving to you? Stealth is for survival, it is what allows assassins to get in without dying and make that big kill. It is what allows tricksters time to break down and cripple their foes. Stealth is a survival mechanic, in every game, the less you are attacked the healthier you are.
Right, but as I was saying, people don't use it for just stealth (stealth kills, avoiding enemy attention, etc). They just abuse it to survive for long periods of time (pop Invis, shoot everything, move on). (Which is the same abuse of old Iron Skin we saw when it was temporary invincibility.) Technically, we somewhat see that abuse with Valkyr's ulti as well, but that has its own problems as Valkyr as a whole doesn't feel much like a berserker.
This is the problem with it lasting forever on a "cloaky" build without punishing players.
I don't think an Invis with slow drain and single-attack use being spammed is as bad, because it would still punish your energy pool a lot to do that. Technically you could use the argument of hiding until energy is regained with anyone who uses Energy Siphon, so that's inevitable anyway. (that's even possible right now without Corrupted mods, but that's not broken, that's just having the patience to plan your moves no matter the cost.)
But here's an example of why simply making the AI more aware of invisible Tenno will not be enough:
If you've ever played Descent [especially Descent 3], the AI was pretty darn good in that game. When you acquired a Cloak, they even track you; they can detect when you fire, use your ship's headlight or afterburner, or pick up a powerup. There was still a reason that a Cloak was a rare, temporary powerup that only lasted for 30 seconds, because even with AI sensing your presence, being able to be invisible indefinitely would mean you could bypass too much of the game, and you could always set yourself up for a better shot easily.
I know that experience, because I tried playing the game while using a cheat that made you permanently cloaked. :P
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Honestly, I wish Corrupted mods would get nerfed or changed. NOT Loki.
why? They work fine to create "spec" builds on every other frame. Why should all those builds be punished because one mod set is broken on ONE character? (Okay, 2 if you count Loki Prime :P)
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-angry snip-
No. I meant what I said, not what you read into. Calm down before your head explodes from too much internet. (Also, sorry if I offended you.)
I didn't say you couldn't give your opinion, but that isn't what you gave. You flat told me I was wrong [that I was "missing the point" of my own topic?] and told everyone the "correct" way to view a character. Loki is a trickster who manipulates the battlefield. His powers are somewhat interpretive; they don't have a clear-cut use, so flexibility in your argument is appreciated. I've already reconsidered my idea for Invisibility, adding in input from more... constructive... responses. (I encourage you to read all the comments. :) )
Now, hang on to your butt, because I'm going to critique your argument a little bit....
it would make invisibility worthless, because it would be an "escape/hide" ability, not a defensive/offensive one.
hiding is exactly what invisibility does. (Also, retreat is a defensive tactic.)
This game is a TPS not a stealthy shooter, it focuses only in shooting large amount of enemies...
....Stealth is survival to Loki
...so wait. Is this game about stealth or not? Maybe the stealth mechanics are rough/unfinished, but I'd say stealth is at least an option. [also, there are a lot of successful stealthy TPSs, like Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell.]
If you find it so easy to use, just use another frame that gives you more of a challenge. Loki is perfectly balanced as it is.
You're contradicting yourself again...
-If a character is "easy to use" to the point where I don't even have to try while I have to try with every other character, then the odds are that character is not "balanced." (I've also leveled virtually every frame in the game [including the elusive Excalibur Prime] to 30 at least once, and I've used more than half of the frames in this game extensively, in case you were wondering.)
-If there is a balance issue, the answer is not to simply have everyone choose to ignore the imbalanced character, but to FIX the balance issue.
(did you know this game is still in beta, and you're technically a beta tester?)
-We WANT a game to be challenging, or it isn't fun to play after a while...
I feel like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing...
But why don't you go ahead and try it right now? Go play a T3 or T4 def or sup, use invisibility, wait until the timer is about to run out and then shoot enemies. You would see why your suggestion just would not work at all and would make Loki useless as you would die really fast.
I've brought my Cloaky into a T4 survival and lasted over an hour. (I had two clanmates in the match, but I mostly just did my own thing besides Radial Disarming.) I never went down once. (except I maybe killed myself once or twice with the Penta I had brought.) the only reason we ended the game was because we had gotten distracted with killing enemies and ran out of air.
If you're talking about testing my original idea for a new Invisibility in-game, that's not possible, because Invisibility does not currently buff primary/secondary weapons, and you're right about casting cost, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be altered to suit an Invisibility that worked differently. (I just thought that would have been a given. I didn't realize I'd have to spell everything out to you.)
As it's stands now, you lose energy when you use invisibility and end up wasting it because there were a few enemies.
It's impossible to waste something that effectively lasts forever.
The whole point here is that without invisibility, you're defenseless against high level enemies.
Nobody here is arguing against the logic of the skill, only the logic of allowing the skill to be used indefinitely without punishing the player.
Changing that is changing Loki completely.
If something is broken as it currently stands, a change is inevitably necessary for the preservation of challenge within the game. If the game is too easy, it gets boring and loses players. (And that's why everyone's been whining about end-game for so long)
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Oh, and how is this:
Stealth is survival to Loki
...a valid response to this:
People use Cloakys for survivability, not for stealth, because a Cloaky will last longer than any other frame in a situation that requires survival.
...?
...I don't think you get what "stealth" is about.
I have yet to hear a good argument against any suggested change for invisibility, other than...Because it's annoying
"Annoying" isn't bad for balance or for challenging gameplay. It just means it wouldn't be for you. :P
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-snip-
I didn't miss the point, and who are you to decide how Loki should be according to... everyone?
How Loki should be is what the developers ultimately decide is his best role within the game, not the way you or I individually may play him. That said, the developers have also given us players a chance to provide input into things we are concerned about [such as bugs or loop-holes] or want to change about the game [new character/weapon suggestions and such.]
Please, don't waste our time by telling us we're wrong about Loki and then proceed to tell us your definition of who Loki is.
And if anyone honestly takes damage while running invisibility, they're just bad at the game. :P
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It puts unalerted enemies in to a suspicious state. They'll take cover, run, search for the Warframe.
They won't actually shoot at anything though.
They may throw grenades though.
^They're just as stupid as before this update. The only difference is SOMETIMES they will run to the first body you kill and stand around like idiots instead of running in random directions before standing around like idiots.
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Of course frames are given 4 abilities for a reason, but one of them is often the "main one", that's what I meant with my post.
v
All warframes are given 4 powers for a reason; there's typically a "most-used" or "most-generally-effective" power, but the other powers are there and shouldn't be worthless or thought of as such.
^
You can perma-invisibility (that's one of the builds, not everyone uses it) but if you make mistakes you will be punished no matter what, and as I said before, in high level missions you have to play him perfectly if you don't want to be killed. That's what makes Loki really good, it forces you to know the maps and move constantly if you don't want to end up dead before you can recast it again.
..."playing perfectly" right now just involves pressing "2" over and over and then killing everything until it's dead. Srsly, the only thing that's a threat to an invisible Loki is a Toxic Ancient. People use Cloakys for survivability, not for stealth, because a Cloaky will last longer than any other frame in a situation that requires survival.
That coupled with Radial Disarm's scaling makes Loki one of the strongest frames in the game, not the weakest. That's the truth about Loki that makes him "desired by skilled players." Because his supposed weakness actually makes him strong. You and I both know this, so you're kidding yourself if you honestly don't think Invisibility should take more skill to use.
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Invisibility: As just about everyone else has said, being able to go perma-invisible until you attack would basically trivialize a great deal of missions for Loki, so that's probably not a good change.
This is not a bad change either, as most people in this thread have blatently ignored the fact that Loki can currently do this anyway.
I've also stated [a few times now] that I'm not opposed to Invisibility remaining duration-based or having some other way of running out slowly [such as being a slow-energy drain power like Absorb or Sound Quake] as long as something triggers Loki's visibility again or he is otherwise punished for using Invisibility for long periods of time.
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Loki "is" invisibility, he has NO attack powers (that's one of the reasons why so many new people don't like him in the first place, as it's hard to level with it's low base stats), with that in mind, invisibility can be considered his attack power. It's what lets you defend and attack at the same time.
Considering that loki's base stats are really low, you would be making him basically worthless because everytime you attack you would be visible again and at that range, if you're surrounded by enemies, on any end-game missions, you're as good as dead. You can say that you have decoy and switch to escape or move away, but you can't just be moving arround every single time you want to attack, it just doesn't make sense.
Those changes are really bad, invisibility IS loki.
All warframes are given 4 powers for a reason; there's typically a "most-used" or "most-generally-effective" power, but the other powers are there and shouldn't be worthless or thought of as such.
your original suggestion of it having to be recast every time you make a single attack?
No it doesn't.
...yes it does. You wanted Loki to have to take cover more and think more tactically with Invisibility. That's exactly what a single-attack use mechanic does. You hit someone, then take cover. Recast. Hit someone else, take cover. Recast. [Haven't you ever played Crysis? xD]
...and what exactly is wrong with having to recast more? [especially if Invisibility was changed to slowly drain energy instead of having a single-use cost] There are plenty of other frames in this game that have spammable abilities (Vauban, Ember, Nekros, etc) and no one complains about it.
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They track based on gunfire noise.
Mods that reduce noise would greatly reduce their effectiveness, Melee strikes which are quieter would make it harder as well. And then the Loki may also stop firing and relocate briefly, sweep through them again, and continue on. It would force them to not use invisibility as a way to go in guns blazing. As long as they kept their fire to short bursts and movements frequent they would be fine cloaked.
My original suggested change for Invisibility [maybe with some alterations] would do this independent of AI changes.
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AoE units will prioritize finding invisible targets regardless of other Tenno, Napalms, Bombards, Scorches, Hellions.
Melee Units, low bullet density units(Seekers, Ballistas), Elite Lancers, Eviscerators, Rollers would prioritize visible Tenno.
Normal Lancers, Troopers, and Heavy Gunners have an equal likelihood of pursuing either.
AoE units and high bullet density units counter the poor at aiming notion. They don't have to be good at aiming to potentially hit him.
B. fire at Loki while he's cloaked, and be so good at tracking him that he might as well not be cloaked.
the B scenario ruins Invisibility and will be no fun for anyone.
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The fact that people can use corrupt mods and essentially go perma-invisible is besides the point.
No, the fact this is possible IS the point with Invisibility. This isn't possible with any other power. Sure you could pick up energy orbs or deploy Energy Restores to keep up Invisibility, but those are working mechanics within the game. The "cloaky" build allows for permanent re-casting completely independent of game mechanics.
And the AI ALREADY [somewhat] react to firing from invisibility [at least the Infested do]. Not even Rhino, Valkyr or Trinity [the tanky/defensive frames] have the kind of survivability at high level that a Cloaky does. With adequate oxygen, a smart Cloaky could last INDEFINITELY in a Survival. (by the way, it's not hard to dodge bullets in this game; fixing the AI will only make a Cloaky even better, because if the enemies react to all powers equally, Loki will pull ahead even more.
Consider this: ONCE the AI is improved [as all opposers to this thread suggest], they will have to either:
A. fire at Loki while he's cloaked, but be so &!$$-poor at aiming that they might as well not be shooting [as they currently do.]
or
B. fire at Loki while he's cloaked, and be so good at tracking him that he might as well not be cloaked.
the A scenario makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, but it doesn't fix Cloaky; you could still run around perma-invisible and just not fire [or only use melee] and survive at high-level just as easily.
the B scenario ruins Invisibility and will be no fun for anyone.
When DE changed the mechanics of Iron Skin, removing its duration [and adding a limited hp], it was no longer OP, but still viable. I believe a similar approach to Invisibility is the best way to change it.
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have you given the subject any thought at all, or were you just like "Oh crap, a thread talking about nerfing my favorite OP power! Better disagree in case the devs are watching..."?
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I could see that invisibility suggestion for Loki being insanely OP if combined with something like the Penta or Ogris though... It'd almost be like a moderately filled AMD.
It's ok. You can already do this by shooting them into Nova's Antimatter Drop. :D
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Although then I'd recommend his trickstery nature be bolstered in Decoy and Switch Teleport. Throw in some radiation procs or other debilitations/ aggro manipulations.
Make the Decoy's shots deal Radiation effects to enemies with 100% status chance? :D
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All this whining about invisibility being spammable.
I'm surprised nobody has seen the compromise between two extremes: "Give it a cooldown." Perhaps about 50% of his invisibility's duration? So building for full invisibility duration can have a downside.
What's that? You never thought of something so simple? Of course you didn't, simple solutions work the best, and are often ignored!
While this will annoy some, it will appease others, if you don't want it to be a spammable ability, then ask for a cooldown, not a freaking re-work to the entire ability. It's fine as it is.
Edit: The reason a cooldown would appease both sides is that Loki's invisibility is still good and the way it should be (unique), but as it reaches the end of its duration, Loki players will have to locate a place to hide from incoming fire so they can make their getaway.
While this is a nice suggestion, you didn't have to insult our intelligence. :P
Also, I thought of this. But I think DE wants to avoid putting cooldowns on powers because they already have the energy cost mechanic. (Also, the powers used to have cooldowns in early closed beta, and the energy system was introduced to replace it.)
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Switch Teleport should not be a tag on first tap, teleport on second tap ability... that makes it less useful for quick movement -- If I'm running or falling, I don't want to tag a target, black screen and teleport back to the ground, then teleport to my target.
Then tag something before falling (that's the beauty of it.)
Also, I've never seen ANYONE use Switch Teleport as a twitch-reaction to falling.
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so my clanmates and I ran the Breeding Grounds mission for a considerable amount of hours today.. and now that I personally have about 1700 points, if I solo the mission, enemies are level 100+.
Everything one-hit-kills you (even if you're Rhino or Valkyr) and Mutilist Ospreys (or "fart drones" as we've taken to calling them) are a nightmare; their nearly-invisible toxic clouds are a sure way to a quick and surprising death.
We figured out how to get a party into the game at this level (tho no one else in our teamspeak besides me had more than 800 points or so) by having me start a game by myself and invite friends to join in progress. We experienced the chaos and the horror of running for our lives as the odd new infested music suddenly became applicable to the difficulty of the experience.
Two things I learned from this are:
1. Mutilist Osprey toxic clouds should be enhanced to visually show their effect radius. Playing at a difficulty where just touching the effect instantly kills you made it obvious where the effect's boundaries are, and there's a large portion of the cloud that's invisible.
2. The absurdly high levels of the enemies did not stop us from being able to kill them; the way they scaled was cool. Their offense was stronger, not so much their defenses (though it did take a lot of effort to kill certain enemies.)
This experience was so much fun and so challenging that I kind of hope DE will consider keeping a mission of this caliber somewhere in the world where only players of high mastery would have access. -
So, my internet had a brown out and I got DC'd from game...
And then.. well, umm.. this. xD
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It would only likely benefit the medium power weaponry in killing tough targets
...which is a change I would be very happy with. It'd be nice if the developers could find ways to make "lower-tier" weapons more viable so that they don't suck. :P
Also, most of the time, that one heavy unit/eximus is the only real threat out there anyway. The common mobs you can mow down easily as it is. Focusing certain abilities to affect heavier single targets hasn't really happened much in this game (or at all) because everyone tends to favor AOEs.
And adding damage to Radial Disarm Ultimately does nothing for the skill.
No, and that's not a change I believe is necessary (or my suggestions for Decoy or Switch Teleport; those are just ideas that I think would make the abilities cooler/work better). I just think it would be better for:
1) more fun
2) explanation of the ability
3) clearing lower-tier mobs more easily (especially infested)
...also because I think it's absolutely absurd that Radial Disarm deals damage right now to only Infested Chargers. It should either deal damage to everyone or not deal damage at all.
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Every other game with stealth makes it end after one attack, warframe is the one game that doesn't.
I appreciate your respectful disagreement and input, but I believe that the reason many other games have done this is because it's good for balance. The fact that Warframe has not done something at least to this effect is NOT a good thing.
To all of you who think "cloaky" is not OP and simply improving the AI will get rid of this problem:
Make sure when you take a position to consider all the evidence;
Invisibility is not invincibility, but it isn't JUST invisibility either; it currently provides 3 mechanics:
-it makes you undetectable to enemies
-it gives you guaranteed 4x melee damage (which count as crits as evidenced by their effect on mods like Berserker)
-it silences all of your weapons (as evidenced by the fact that enemies don't react to you firing, even just to set off an alarm, and the fact you can score stealth melee kills after firing as well.)
Invisibility is very much ALREADY an assassination ability, and "'Cloaky' not OP"? You're joking, right? Even if ALL Invisibility did was buff your melee attacks, "Cloaky" would be OP. Not even Roar or Accelerant are that consistently spammable. Currently, Invisibility is by far the best defensive power in the game ONLY because it's infinitely spammable with the right build, and especially if you're soloing, simply improving the AI to react to invisibility will not change this fact.
The G3 Are Ridiculous.
in General
Posted · Edited by Ace4225
Before I begin, let me say this is NOT meant to be taken as a complaint thread. This is a serious evaluation of the Grustrag Three as I have experienced them in the game. [but for the sake of short attention spans, I will still try to keep this one short and simple]
They're.. well... ridiculous, for several reasons:
1. They don't spawn often enough [any more].
The last time I got their threat message, it was almost three months before I took my last break from the game. During that time, I played EVERY SINGLE invasion, ALWAYS siding with Corpus [i want the Brakk. lol]. And NOT ONCE did the G3 appear.
2. When they are defeated [after they FINALLY spawn], their rewards are pathetic.
I'd say about 7 out of 10 times I fought them and beat them, I got a Fusion Core. The last 3 out of 10 times, I'd get a Hell's Chamber. I'd heard people say that they got Natural Talent, but I didn't even see that. Out of the dozen or so times I've personally faced them and won, I've only gotten 1 Brakk part.
Why is that ridiculous? The Zanuka Hunter has a 100% drop chance for at least one Detron part and spawns more often than the G3 [or so it seems.]. And while he's not guaranteed to drop something, the Stalker [wait.. who?] can drop mods AS WELL AS blueprints instead of only one or the other.
3. The loss risk is odd.
Despite the game's typical pace, the G3 are remarkably challenging to fight [which is cool and doesn't really need adjusting], which makes beating them all the more rewarding. But losing to them only results in having to build yet another blueprint that draws upon the infinite crafting stores of the Tenno.
When you lose to Zanuka Hunter, you actually have to recover your Warframe on your own in a special mission. That's creative and interesting. The "Grineer Restraining Bolt" is not.
I just came back to the game after taking a couple months off, and I finally just fought the G3 again today. And it reminded me that I wanted to make this post.