Survival Mode Was Supposed To Address Endgame... ?!

[alocrius]

In livestream #12, Steve was finally confronted about veterans concerns for improving Warframes gameplay/long-term direction.  In response to this highlighted, important opening question, we were told,  a) not everyone plays 500 hrs so it's not a pressing concern... and b) we are polishing missions and making an exciting new mission called survival.  Considering how much discussion has gone into this topic on the forums,  the dev response here was disheartening, to put it mildly.  

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't take 500 hours or even 250 hours to see that the game is a shallow means to grind weapons rather than a means to enjoy the game itself.   

 

Survival mode brings exactly nothing new to the table that we haven't already done a few thousand times before.  Is this really DE applying themselves to a problem?  Is this really DE's long term solution to the ongoing problem of gameplay never getting updated? Color me not impressed.

 

I keep hoping since the missions are so god-awful repetitive maybe DE will see fit to expand the combat depth so the repetition is more tactical and challenging.  Maybe we will get a stealth update, or some ninja utilities/skills or missions that exploit more tactical gameplay.  When does DE finally listen and look at the progress of Warframe and realize there are some essential ingredients that just haven't made it into the game.  Polishing isn't going to get this game where it needs to be.  Lateral expansions, tilesets, factions, weapons, aren't going to get this game where it needs to be.  The core gameplay needs addressed so that all those awesome things DE comes up with are relevant instead of a smack in the face to those of us staring at the glaring deficiencies.

[Clawtank96]

This game mode will add some new game play keeping people here for longer, but instead of adding more stuff i with they would polish the game more and fix bugs and glitches.

[bosstnt]

'endgame' is when u stop playing that game

[Phoenix86]

oh well... it's kinda funny... just a brainless massacre

[Sherbniz]

Developement man, it's hard stuff. Things take time. Endgame can't be truly tackled until they've got their game mechanics and earlygame/midgame content in order.

Survival Mode is a fun experience, it's a free-for-all slaughterfest where Warframes can really show off their murderous capabilities, rack up kills & drops and not have to worry about waves or extraction or anything.

Really a good thing they could conjure out of the content they already had at hand without roping up the entire studio that's hard at work at Update 10.

In my opinion, it's great and rather relaxing.

[alocrius]

@ Sherbiz, I agree, as far as missions go its a fine addition.  However, I am putting Survival mode into the context of the question asked in Livestream #12 to DEsteve, regarding lack of gameplay updates and long-term direction.  Survival mode and polishing missions was their answer.  Like, I said, considering the huge amount of dialog we have had as a community around this subject, bit of a letdown.

[neKroMancer]

Survival mode is just another mission type that actually challenge Endless defense in term of reward ratio. I don't view it as an endgame. I view it as a replacement for Raid.

 

Practically speaking, I doubt that we will see a traditional 16 man boss raid as endgame in Warframe anytime soon. More like DE don't want to give the game which has no lore, no diverse gameplay, and poor balance, an end.  

[alocrius]

Survival mode is just another mission type that actually challenge Endless defense in term of reward ratio. I don't view it as an endgame. I view it as a replacement for Raid.

 

 

 

My concern is that apparently DE does see this as addressing community concerns about longevity.  

 

@bosstnt - I am looking at endgame as meaning not the literal end of the game, but more as the game design choices that keep players meaningfully involved for the long term.

Edited September 5, 2013 by alocrius

[MaxHardwood]

Survival mode is just another mission type that actually challenge Endless defense in term of reward ratio. I don't view it as an endgame. I view it as a replacement for Raid.

 

Practically speaking, I doubt that we will see a traditional 16 man boss raid as endgame in Warframe anytime soon. More like DE don't want to give the game which has no lore, no diverse gameplay, and poor balance, an end.  

 

Keep in mind that Warframe is user hosted. Not many people have a connection or a system that is capable of hosting 15 other connections while playing. Though, it would be awesome.

Edited September 5, 2013 by MaxHardwood

[r3dzer0]

i'd be fine just having a four man raid, with awesome mechanics that dont involve a massive bullet sponge which im afraid that the new j3golem may well end up being. make it last more than 30 seconds. make it threatening. make it so theres multiple things going on. obviously though it should remain accessible for the solo players so maybe it would scale with squad size.

 

as for survival, it will utterly destroy everything because you can farm as long as you can handle for virtually any mats you need.  reworking current missions and actually lacing them with lore should be top priority, not slapping more bandaids on this game

[Carkis]

Survival was never a direct answer to "end-game" concerns.  As nekromancer said, this was a replacement for raid to round out mission diversity.  You can't take any game change as a response to one of many concerns.  They are still pushing content to round out the game and I have no doubt DE will figure something out soon enough as more players reach burnout.  Even so, a game can hold player interest for only so long.

[r3dzer0]

Doesn't really round out anything to be quite frank.  its defense without the pod and every 5 wave reward. that's it.  and it has an rng factor that sometimes can drive a person insane to boot. 

 

As for player interest, i would disagree with you.  Dark souls ( i know its been used alot here on this forum to compare, so i'll keep it brief) can keep you content for years if you're looking for new ways to deal with stuff.  Warframe however with its lackluster lore, and lack of diversity, combined with the insane amount of farming can cause you to stop playing after 30+ hours. Most the reason I still play is to try out new weapons, which means more farming, which means more assassinations/defense(mobile as well)/survival to get the components i want.  that's not rounding out the game.  why bother doing capture/raid/sabotage/spy/rescue when a clearly more effective way of getting what you need/want is doing one of the aforementioned three?  they needed to rework the mechanics of raid, not remove it and implement survival.  Maybe a way to fix it, and this may sound radical, is start by removing or reducing resource spawns on defense/survival types so that you can't just infinitely rake in gobs and gobs of stuff.  if nothing else it would push people to farm the other mission types, but  I digress

 

My biggest problem with their current game, is that atleast as far as story telling goes, you should have your start and an end, or atleast a climax. 

I can't even say that they really have a beginning. there's no real fleshed out plot other than hey you're fighting against three factions that all hate eachother and hate you!  That being said, with the way the story is sitting there is quite possibly a good chance that there won't be much more than what you see here.  Vor rework was nice, but he's just a glorified bullet sponge with a timer.  I dont' feel scared meleeing him to death, or using a lato to blast him away. boss reworks can work, but I fear that without the lore, and better mechanics to boot, there won't be much reason to deal with them other than to get your warframes/weapons/rare mats

[DJSmash]

The "survival mode" was never the "end game" answer. Maybe i intrepreted it different but from what i understand, it was a new game mode to replace the raid/spy which was mentioned in the previous live stream as the least played game.

 

Right now, the word "end game" in warframe forum has become a taboo for me. Seriously, it all started with 1 post and the next thing you know, *bam* countless of other postings with the word "end game" has been poping out left and right by other people.

 

Honestly, do you see AN end game for warframe? Warframe isnt one of those typical regular mmorpg out there. Grind, Build the biggest or most devastating weapons & wage massive war;clan wars/region wars@pvp/massive boss hunts. Those are end game contents for some of the mmorpgs out there but what about warframe? Do you want warframe to be exactly like that?

 

Yes, i am also very tired of grinding and leveling weapons/frames for the mastery rank sake which serve no purpose. I am also tired of the bugs/glitches and nat issues however Warframe to me has so much potential to expand on. It's a question of time.

 

So many people have been posting about end game content. seriously? you want an end game content now?? with some of the bugs/glitches/fine tuning/rebalancing/armour, damage, frames being rework going on now? what about dojo system and UI matters?

 

My take on this, i say give De time to work on all these issues before looking at "end game content". just my 2cents op.

[r3dzer0]

The "survival mode" was never the "end game" answer. Maybe i intrepreted it different but from what i understand, it was a new game mode to replace the raid/spy which was mentioned in the previous live stream as the least played game.

 

Right now, the word "end game" in warframe forum has become a taboo for me. Seriously, it all started with 1 post and the next thing you know, *bam* countless of other postings with the word "end game" has been poping out left and right by other people.

 

Honestly, do you see AN end game for warframe? Warframe isnt one of those typical regular mmorpg out there. Grind, Build the biggest or most devastating weapons & wage massive war;clan wars/region wars@pvp/massive boss hunts. Those are end game contents for some of the mmorpgs out there but what about warframe? Do you want warframe to be exactly like that?

 

Yes, i am also very tired of grinding and leveling weapons/frames for the mastery rank sake which serve no purpose. I am also tired of the bugs/glitches and nat issues however Warframe to me has so much potential to expand on. It's a question of time.

 

So many people have been posting about end game content. seriously? you want an end game content now?? with some of the bugs/glitches/fine tuning/rebalancing/armour, damage, frames being rework going on now? what about dojo system and UI matters?

 

My take on this, i say give De time to work on all these issues before looking at "end game content". just my 2cents op.

Actually i do see endgame for warframe.  They've already given us a glimpse at some of the lore.  For instance it could just be like a boss from ninja gaiden/dark souls/ mass effect, that requires you to keep your whits about you sent by the sisters to snuff you out of existence.  There is literally nothing to keep you playing after you have tried out your flashy new gun a few times and have it as well as your frame maxed.  Bugs will always exist.  Players will always find exploits.  the more that you patch the more you mess up. My case and point being halo 2, where they removed alot from the beginning( grenade jumps, rocket/sword combo, fixed melee) and by patching those things created super jumps, and overpowered grenades. 

Taking into consideration that they have slated this to be a ps4 launch title means that they need to hurry up and get the content going.  In all honesty mercury is a great hook to get you started, then it just starts to drop off.  The frames themselves don't need to be reworked.  I get tired of hearing nova is op or rhino is op.  I main ash and out dps both of them everytime.  sure they have their awesome aoe utility, but in the end you're in a superpowered ninja suit fighting thousands of enemies at once(exaggerated but point still stands) and when you do do that ultimate it is great to see everything die at once.  as for fine tuning and rebalancing, they will never stop doing that.  My case and point on that matter is World of Warcraft where every week you have an update fixing and rebalancing crap.

[Carkis]

If you're looking for a "boss" akin to Dark Souls, that gives players even less of a reason to keep playing the game.  They're very different games, and I stopped playing Dark Souls after I beat it because I played it how I wanted to.  Sure there are different builds to play the game with, but the greatest fun of that game was the challenge.  It stops being a challenge when you make multiple playthroughs knowing what you're facing.  Dark souls has a fully fleshed out story, open world, and clear goals.  If there were such an end boss in this game, I believe more people would feel like they have finished it and stop playing.

 

As mentioned in the recent livestream (regarding Alad V), they are still experimenting with lore and more will come.  Beta is beta.

 

Survival mode IS essentially endless defense without the pod, but that's what players want.  The weekend event was well met and people anticipate its release in U10.  Also I didn't mean survival was content meant to "round out" the game.  They are still pushing tilesets and boss changes to diversify.  Poor Tyl Regor ... he's the last of the melee Mohicans.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Carkis

[r3dzer0]

An endgame does not mean the end of content, rather what you can do at max level with your weapons.  under this definition, defense and survival are endgame content as well as t3 defense.  taking a note from WoW you can limit how many times a week you can farm said boss, and it could eventually lead to the next boss.  For example gear that you get from Vor, could help you in defeating hek, who could lead to kela and so on and so forth.  and perpetually allow you to test your mettle.  No one is claiming that endgame is the end of the game.  it essentially refers to high level content.  For ME3 multiplayer you could consider it platinum. 

 

Taking from what you said regarding Dark souls, i think it can be applied here.  DS has a story, we have bits.  Open world, that's fine this game does not require one.  The one thing that it does require is clear goals, and as far as the player base is concerned(atleast the ones that find time to be on the forums) its becoming quite obvious that clear goals have not been fleshed out.

 

Beta is indeed beta, but they are taking in money for the game and its open beta. there is a difference.  And ps4 launch is not far away at all

[Carkis]

Ok, I was under the impression you wanted an endgame boss.  Indeed, we don't have clear goals, but I'm glad DE concentrated on the feel of the gameplay first instead of a scripted story.  I think they made the right decision, since that is what hooked me.  Investing assets into a particular script limits the expandability of the game.  It is clear DE is invested into Warframe for the long haul.  They have a lot of work ahead of them, and as DJSmash said, it will take time.

 

As for the PS4 launch, I didn't catch any indication that it will take Warframe out of beta.  I haven't kept up to date on that information since I don't plan to play Warframe on it.

[r3dzer0]

Nah, just boss milestones i guess you could call them.  I would say i'm the opposite.  I enjoy killing stuff as a warframe, but as far as gaming goes, I prefer to have  a reason why i'm killing them, with consequences whether they're good or bad.  as it stands right now, there's like 4-5 map variations plus void that repeat and a voice inside your head telling you that you have to do this thing to "affect" their power in the sector without really affecting it in any shape or form.  Lore kind of gives a direction to the way gameplay can go and at the same time can immerse a player in the world and keep them happy and besides themselves.  I am glad they're invested, I just think that people are burning through content too quickly.  Generally with the release of a new weapon/area/warframe it is done approx 100000 times in a few days and a majority are either waiting for their new stuff to finish or are already playing with it burning out just as quickly.  New weapons/frames and locations are great and all but they're really bandaids when they should add many hours of game play without losing our interest.

[Carkis]

I completely understand your reasoning, and it is something I have faith will be addressed down the long road.  The event lore does raise some excitement since we're getting peeks at a potentially deep story.  I don't see new content as bandaids however, but as building blocks.  If the gas planet tileset is placed on gas planets, we will have a more diverse solar system to traverse and progressing through the planets won't seem so redundant.  Weapons may seem to be out of hand, but if they are unique enough, I'm fine with seeing their talented artists at work.

[A1CZERO]

I don't remember ever hearing or reading that survival is/was supposed to address the lack of end game content.

If the xp and loot drops remain the same it actually will shorten the amount of time you need to progress through "content". Kind of the opposite of addressing "longevity".

Edited September 5, 2013 by A1CZERO

[-Kittens-]

Survival was addressing repetition burnout, not endgame. Current endgame is void, and I would not expect endgame for at least a year.

 

If you feel the game is repetitive, play it less until there is enough and varied content for you to consider it "complete".
 

[r3dzer0]

@ a1

I think he's referring to livestream 12 when they mention that as one of the questions and they said to the effect they had a new game mode and other things in the works.  So in a way its kinda supposed to reduce burnout as kittens suggests, however i think it will just cause everyone to play a few game types instead of the other ones even more. 

@ kittens

I agree, there is 0 endgame content, but I would hope that that content would at least be forthcoming with its release on ps4.  Maybe it will be down the a year down the road, but it may be a disservice to the people that have invested much time and money into this game to not get it out sooner.  At least anything that would reduce burnout.  A metagame change like notionphil has suggested may reverse burnout but no one knows till its explored.  I myself am already starting to burn out and play it less as you suggested.  I play as ash because I do not prefer any of the other warframes, though i'm still giving them a try in order to keep my mastery up so i can have other weapons/frames incase they come out. 

[-Kittens-]

well I think most endgame type things will be like "super challenge planets" and multipart boss or faction elite encounters OUTSIDE of unlocking new systems.

 

Look at this way. Phobos is the first and only system with a per-system tileset, and Jupiter will be next, so in regular play, only two systems have their own "unique land and thingies feel" started, much less finished.

 

I think a true lore-influencing endgame is quite a ways off.

Edited September 5, 2013 by -Kittens-

[r3dzer0]

I agree, however i think one way that they could incorporate what they have with a phobos-type tile set is maybe have your tenno breaking blockades to drop down on the planet.  This could add twice as many levels with the outer rim of the planet being the easier set and planet being more heavily defended by the occupying force.  this would unlock what we have as bosses.  alerts or some type of quest system to unlock superbosses would seem more agreeable, since you don't want people burning through your super boss battles to quickly, which is something that we have a problem with at the moment.  Phobos with its new units and inclusion of old with new skins was a step in the right direction.  the metagame at the moment allows for people to run through phobos in  a matter of hours and farm many times and burn themselves out on it to quickly. 

 

It is my opinion that all three of these things go together, especially in Warframes case, to improve longevity: Lore, Endgame, and Meta-game.  What i don't think is a good option is pvp out of the dojo, so it'll be interesting to see what they're doing there and how much it will detract from current gameplay.  I don't want to be running around and all of a sudden my team mate decides its a good time to antimatter drop me.

 

In the end like you say, we have to be patient

[Sesshou01]

An endgame does not mean the end of content, rather what you can do at max level with your weapons.  under this definition, defense and survival are endgame content as well as t3 defense.  taking a note from WoW you can limit how many times a week you can farm said boss, and it could eventually lead to the next boss.  For example gear that you get from Vor, could help you in defeating hek, who could lead to kela and so on and so forth.  and perpetually allow you to test your mettle.  No one is claiming that endgame is the end of the game.  it essentially refers to high level content.  For ME3 multiplayer you could consider it platinum. 

 

You missed a key point about what makes end game "end game."  It isn't just that you have something to do with your fully leveled gear, it is that you have a reason to go complete something appropriately tuned to provide a challenge for your fully leveled gear.  Defense and Survival fail there because you have to sink at least an hour to get the enemies high enough level and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that.  If there was some planet with a defense/survival that started at the level equivalent to an hour on a pluto one with some reason for actually doing it, that could be end game (though a very lame one).

 

T3 defense is a little better because it starts off fairly high, has special rewards (at least higher drop rates for rarer things elsewhere), and spawns a lot more non grunt enemies.  It fails though because it is still too easy if you actually go in there with 4 maxed out players.