Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[Xanarxses]

Pros:

Stylish.

Classy.

Rambunctious.

Playful.

Enthusiastic.

Perfect pitch.

Hard working.

Fabulous dancer.

Good table manners.

Australian accent.

 

Cons:

Stats.

Powers.

 

n.~

 

Wat. I've never read something that confused me more than this.

 

EDIT: To sum it up. She's pretty to look at. If you just look at her and not play. She's one of the best. The cons start when you start playing and trying to kill stuff.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Xanarxses

[MageMeat]

DE doesn't know where what goes. Not only do they not know, they don't look at the community for direction. They just go against everyone's wish all the time. Now I haven't played this game for very long. Little over a hundred hours. But Ember's abilities, are garbage. Even at low levels, they are not worth using. Using an unranked weapon is more effective than her abilities.

 

Ember is an interesting frame, because everything about her is contradictory. Her stats say she's a squishy mage type. Her look says she's a battle mage. Her abilities actually support the battle mage idea because you have to go up close and personal to use any ability.

 

I would actually prefer if they made her something of a Fire Warrior. Give her medium armor. Like 50, maybe a little more. Boost up her shield and health. I don't really like glass cannons.

 

Instead of fireball make it like flame hands or something. She would shoot fire out of her hands at a 90 degree or so cone. Stunning all caught in the fire.

 

OR

 

Make the fireball an actual fireball. Not a fire pebble. If you've ever played videogames with magic, you'd know what a fireball is. A fireball that creates an actual explosion. AOE.

 

Make overheat actually useful, a damage boost for every player AND give every player a fire damage bonus for all their weapons and during the duration of the overheat, energy is restored to Ember with each enemy killed.

 

Fireblast, have it work like Frost's snowglobe in a sense. Upon casting it would ragdoll all enemies in the vicinity away from Ember (physics impact damage) and create a sizable circle that would give damage reduction to all the players in the circle and all enemies that enter it would receive fire damage that staggers them for each hit and each hit would happen every 3 seconds or so.

 

I don't know about world on fire as I've never touched it but for another ability... have her cast the ability and have it create a large circle around her. That moves with her. There would be 5 fire spirits or whatever and each one attacks enemies once and comes back to ember to charge her primary weapon with a special fire effect that would do splash damage upon hit and it would stun the target hit and stagger all those hit by the splash effect. The amount of charges depends on how many hits the fire spirits have dealt to enemies. With each hit, they charge her weapon once. The spirits will have no limit to how many times they can hit enemies, the only thing limiting them will be the duration of the ability itself.

 

And have all these abilities ignore fire resistance. These are god damn abilities. There shouldn't be any resisting.

 

Damn... this is actually kind of overpowered if these abilities scaled properly. But oh well. Nova needs someone to put her in her place.

I like it. Especially the rework for Fireball.

But at least make SOMETHING be resisted, event if to a reduced extent.

Since your idea for Fire Blast is defensive, make it normal, resistance affected damage. You wouldn't be using it for the damage anyways.

[Coca-Cola_Addict]

I just find it hard to believe she is that bad... I played with an Ember in the survival event that literally killed 1000 more enemies then every one else on the team, again thats not hyperbole. Is she more fragile then Loki now? Do you guys think she will be better after U10? I guess ill know in a few hours lol.

[Neuhnee]

Im looking for a good review of Embers pros and cons because Im building her as we speak, but judging by the highly emotional post in here im in the wrong place...

 

Pros:

 

Fire does bonus damage to Infested

 

She two ults which travel with her rather than being set in a specific area

 

Overheat does high damage to an unlimited number of targets

 

WoF does high damage to up to three targets in an area around her (everyone complains about the fact that WoF has a target limit, but the truth is that it does high enough damage that it pretty much one hits and just melts everything around you until you hit the armour barrier which is supposed to be fixed in Armour 2.0)

 

Cons:

 

Her first ability is a single target DoT that's hard to land and is not very stong

 

Her second ability has this tiny ring (*not* circle) of effect that deals DoT which mobs don't stand on long enough to be damaged by

 

Her third ability requires you to be standing on the toes of the *unlimited* number of targets you want it to damage

 

Her fourth ability currently suffers from armour limitations (again, Armour 2.0 is *meant* to fix that)

 

All her abilities, while not contributing much to the fight, have big flashy graphics which obscure the enemy making them hard to shoot at with guns, or abilities that *will* actually hurt them, and contribute to the *huge* SoS problem this game has

 

She has very low survival stats, and currently no ability to compensate for that

 

She has four damage dealing abilities, which means you'll end up picking one you like, and ignoring the other three

 

 

 

In short there's a very clearly defined niche she's obviously meant to fill, but ATM she's not able to do so. I'm usually the 'everything is useful for something' guy but, honestly, Ember just doesn't do anything well enough to recommend for any use ATM

[Neuhnee]

I just find it hard to believe she is that bad... I played with an Ember in the survival event that literally killed 1000 more enemies then every one else on the team, again thats not hyperbole. Is she more fragile then Loki now? Do you guys think she will be better after U10? I guess ill know in a few hours lol.

 

Ember was great in the Survival Challenge because her old Overheat let her survive the poison that was keeping everyone else to far away to properly use their abilities and weapons. And her WoF would burn down at least trash on the higher levels while she stood in the poison and shoved a gun down the heavies throats.

[Kinethia]

I just find it hard to believe she is that bad... I played with an Ember in the survival event that literally killed 1000 more enemies then every one else on the team, again thats not hyperbole. Is she more fragile then Loki now? Do you guys think she will be better after U10? I guess ill know in a few hours lol.

 

But more seriously:

 

Pros:

- Easy to use at low levels: Most abilities you just activate and then wander around doing whatever while things take damage and are briefly stunned by fire, then die.

- Great for adrenaline junkies at high levels: Very challenging to use effectively on high level missions, requiring powers to be used for crowd control while evading as much as possible and rushing from cover to cover. Possibly the most challenging frame to play later on.

 

Cons:

- Fragile: Lowest possible armour (10) combined with short range powers makes her hazardous to use against powerful opponents.

- Poor offense: Until Update 10, her powers deal relatively little damage to armoured targets like Grineer and infested ancients.

- Somewhat repetitive: All of her powers are area of effect fire damage over time, and nothing else.

- Poor customizeablility: V polarity aura slot combined with samey powers and low-to-average stats means there aren't many creative options for designing builds.

 

She has a bit more health and shields than Loki, but less armour and has none of Loki's escape powers or options.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia

[Xanarxses]

I like it. Especially the rework for Fireball.

But at least make SOMETHING be resisted, event if to a reduced extent.

Since your idea for Fire Blast is defensive, make it normal, resistance affected damage. You wouldn't be using it for the damage anyways.

I guess fireblast could be normal, non resistance piercing. Since it's true. It's mostly a defensive ability. One that could be used in defense. Protecting the players in the circle while staggering enemies effectively slowing them down pretty much.

 

But one thing is that it's weird that fire doesn't go through armor. It doesn't make sense. I'm assuming the armor is made out of metal, and fire heats metal up and can even melt it with high enough temperatures. Even if it doesn't melt it, the grineer sitting in that armor would get roasted in the armor oven.

[Coca-Cola_Addict]

Okay I think I know what I have to do with her... Thanks for the info guys.

[Kinethia]

But one thing is that it's weird that fire doesn't go through armor. It doesn't make sense. I'm assuming the armor is made out of metal, and fire heats metal up and can even melt it with high enough temperatures. Even if it doesn't melt it, the grineer sitting in that armor would get roasted in the armor oven.

 

Most modern military armour is made at least in part from heat-resistant, high performance ceramics. Many modern armoured vehicles also use plating composed of layers of ceramic and metals with extremely high melting points and densities like tungsten, titanium, and even uranium.

 

In the future, it's likely a lot of armour will be nanofrabricated, and therefore made of extremely elaborate laminates with millions of layers in a variety of materials. Possibly even with magnetically isolated vacuum layers or something. It could literally take hours for the heat to penetrate one of those suits.

 

Then again, some of the Grineer aren't wearing their helmets.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia

[Xanarxses]

Most modern military armour is made at least in part from heat-resistant, high performance ceramics. Many modern armoured vehicles also use plating composed of layers of ceramic and metals with extremely high melting points and densities like tungsten, titanium, and even uranium.

 

In the future, it's likely a lot of armour will be nanofrabricated, and therefore made of extremely elaborate laminates with millions of layers in a variety of materials.

I guess that makes sense. But you would expect that kind of high tech technology from Corpus. Not grineer. I dunno, grineer technology seems kind of crude and primitive. But I suppose that's true.

 

Still though If that's so. They could come up with more high tech powers than just fire or ice. Those are primitive as hell and are pretty obsolete for this world. Quite the lack of creativity there.

 

Damn Nova manipulates matter and S#&$. Why can't they come up with something as interesting and effective as her powers?

 

EDIT: And Tenno are supposed to be connected to the Orokin in some way, which possess very advanced technology so there's really no reason some warframes have such primitive powers like fire or ice.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Xanarxses

[Kinethia]

I guess that makes sense. But you would expect that kind of high tech technology from Corpus. Not grineer. I dunno, grineer technology seems kind of crude and primitive. But I suppose that's true.

 

Corpus armour can also defeat a chess grandmaster. Occasionally one of the Corpus suits just kills its occupant and walks their corpse around, exploiting the dead crewman's security clearance to enact a secret plot to conquer the system. These rogue suits are purged in regularly scheduled Corpus employee performance reviews, where they are asked to remove their helmets.

 

EDIT:

EDIT: And Tenno are supposed to be connected to the Orokin in some way, which possess very advanced technology so there's really no reason some warframes have such primitive powers like fire or ice.

 

Think of them as heat and cold, if that helps. Altering the ambient temperature to values near absolute zero or thousands of degrees above local norms are not trivial things to do.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Kinethia

[LittleReshiram]

Pros:

Stylish.

Classy.

Rambunctious.

Playful.

Enthusiastic.

Perfect pitch.

Hard working.

Fabulous dancer.

Good table manners.

Australian accent.

 

Cons:

Stats.

Powers.

 

n.~

I'm sorry, but, good table manner?

She burned my kitchen last night because I don't have any meat to grill!

Lol anyway, that makes me giggle.

[Xanarxses]

Corpus armour can also defeat a chess grandmaster. Occasionally one of the Corpus suits just kills its occupant and walks their corpse around, exploiting the dead crewman's security clearance to enact a secret plot to conquer the system. These rogue suits are purged in regularly scheduled Corpus employee performance reviews, where they are asked to remove their helmets.

That's quite the conspiracy theory right there.

[MageMeat]

Most modern military armour is made at least in part from heat-resistant, high performance ceramics. Many modern armoured vehicles also use plating composed of layers of ceramic and metals with extremely high melting points and densities like tungsten, titanium, and even uranium.

 

In the future, it's likely a lot of armour will be nanofrabricated, and therefore made of extremely elaborate laminates with millions of layers in a variety of materials. Possibly even with magnetically isolated vacuum layers or something. It could literally take hours for the heat to penetrate one of those suits.

 

Then again, some of the Grineer aren't wearing their helmets.

It doesn't really matter, if Tenno technology can somehow make antiimatter touch a Grineer marine and not make him explode, then I would assume that Ember can superheat the air to such an extent that the atoms in the air are ionized, created plasma and burning through even the toughest of armour withing seconds. If the armour itself isn't ionized and made into plasma.

Also, that type of armour would literally cost the Grineer a fortune to have the Corpus mass produce for their billions of clones.

It could literally bankrupt them.

Edited September 12, 2013 by MageMeat

[Kinethia]

That's quite the conspiracy theory right there.

 

Nah, the conspiracy theorists claim the whole cycle is a test of new combat AI being performed in secret by the Corpus mainframes, which gained sentience decades ago and are the puppet masters running the whole company from the shadows. They supposedly skim tremendous amounts of money from the Corpus budget and are subtly re-purposing ships and factories for enacting their secret master plan.

 

EDIT: Whereas finding the occasional corpse animated by their malevolent, self-aware, rogue AI suit? At Corpus, that's not a conspiracy, that's Tuesday.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Kinethia

[Xanarxses]

It doesn't really matter, if Tenno technology can somehow make antiimatter touch a Grineer marine and not make him explode, then I would assume that Ember can superheat the air to such an extent that the atoms in the air are ionized, created plasma and burning through even the toughest of armour withing seconds. If the armour itself isn't ionized and made into plasma.

Also, that type of armour would literally cost the Grineer a fortune to have the Corpus mass produce for their billions of clones.

It could literally bankrupt them.

True, true. They should have EXTREME control over their powers. Which would mean, no matter what armor they have, they'll get messed up

[Neruell]

The funny part about the suits discussion. Ember dies to fire damage (grineer ignis and fire on fire hazard mission) and frost takes reduced shields on frozen hazard maps. Sure they can control their power so well.

[Xanarxses]

The funny part about the suits discussion. Ember dies to fire damage (grineer ignis and fire on fire hazard mission) and frost takes reduced shields on frozen hazard maps. Sure they can control their power so well.

I know. It's pretty damn $&*&*#(%& that they get harmed by those forms of damage when they're supposedly masters of that element

[LittleReshiram]

True, true. They should have EXTREME control over their powers. Which would mean, no matter what armor they have, they'll get messed up

Well, technically, Ember won't burn herself up, but the Oxygen she needs.

I mean, Tennos still breathe Oxygen, like when you see their health and shield decreases when the glass on Corpus ship destroyed and vaccum happened. They basically breathe outside air.

Since the Orokin are such an advanced race, let's say that the Warframe won't destroy themselves no matter how hard the power affects the world around them.

Now, taking that into consideration, their power won't be the problem to the Tenno, then, but the enviroment that holds them.

Now, since Ember plays with fire, heating the air so much that she able to make a projectile out of thin-air.

The problem won't be what if she will burn herself, but about how she will get the air for her to breath-in.

Fire needs Oxygen, you know.

Then again, just my two-cents.

[Xanarxses]

Well, technically, Ember won't burn herself up, but the Oxygen she needs.

I mean, Tennos still breathe Oxygen, like when you see their health and shield decreases when the glass on Corpus ship destroyed and vaccum happened. They basically breathe outside air.

Since the Orokin are such an advanced race, let's say that the Warframe won't destroy themselves no matter how hard the power affects the world around them.

Now, taking that into consideration, their power won't be the problem to the Tenno, then, but the enviroment that holds them.

Now, since Ember plays with fire, heating the air so much that she able to make a projectile out of thin-air.

The problem won't be what if she will burn herself, but about how she will get the air for her to breath-in.

Fire needs Oxygen, you know.

Then again, just my two-cents.

I think you're severely over thinking it. You're bringing too much realism into an already not so realistic game.

[LittleReshiram]

I think you're severely over thinking it. You're bringing too much realism into an already not so realistic game.

B-but.. Over-thinking is fun. :c

Well at least pseudo-science like this is much more believable than...uh.. Carbon-Mono-Fiber!..or something..

..Steve said that, ok?

[Engelheim]

Since you guys are talking about how fire should(n't) be able to penetrate armor I guess I'll jump in.

 

The most common cause of death (IRL) from fire is smoke inhalation. This is actually an indirect cause of death as the fire doesn't actually kill people. Since Ember doesn't produce smoke from her flames, this can not be a cause of death. However fire does produce a number of toxic gasses such as carbon monoxide which is fatal (and invisible!) to humans. Many Grineer do not use masks and this can be a plausible cause of death. If this were indeed the cause of death then it would make sense that fire ignores armor.

 

Similarly, the fire could just burn all the oxygen before the victim manages to breathe, leading to suffocation. Or, having the victim inhale the fire, damaging their lungs which also results in suffocation.

 

I've seen that both Corpus and Grineer have pressurized suits; this is evident after you kill them. This can mean that they either use a re-breather/oxygen tank (Corpus) or receive oxygen from some other type of respiration; maybe straight into the bloodstream (Grineer). If this is the case, then the above would probably not kill. However it also means that there is an increased risk of damage to their equipment and suits (thermal expansion).

 

However it seems that Ember merely kills enemies by burning them. This is an extremely inefficient way to kill enemies, especially for the relatively low temperature of her flames (around 1000C/1800F judging from the visible spectrum). She relies on thermal decomposition (AKA charring) to let the fire eat away at the armor and reach the victim's vital organs or put them in shock. This may be the best way to kill Infested as it is unknown if they breathe or are even living.

 

In terms of vulnerabilities, it makes sense for MOA and Infested. MOA probably have sensitive electronics and may not do well under high pressure (thermal expansion) or heat. Infested generally have more surface area and as such will receive more damage from fire.

 

I also saw that some people are talking about the ship breach. While it is true that everyone (including Tenno) take damage from the breech, it shouldn't be assumed it is because of oxygen deprivation. More likely it is because of the extreme pressure changes (which should instantly kill). Also fire doesn't work in a vacuum.

 

TL;DR: Fire should do armor ignoring damage except for Infested.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Engelheim

[Xanarxses]

Since you guys are talking about how fire should(n't) be able to penetrate armor I guess I'll jump in.

 

The most common cause of death (IRL) from fire is smoke inhalation. This is actually an indirect cause of death as the fire doesn't actually kill people. Since Ember doesn't produce smoke from her flames, this can not be a cause of death. However fire does produce a number of toxic gasses such as carbon monoxide which is fatal (and invisible!) to humans. Many Grineer do not use masks and this can be a plausible cause of death. If this were indeed the cause of death then it would make sense that fire ignores armor.

 

Similarly, the fire could just burn all the oxygen before the victim manages to breathe, leading to suffocation. Or, having the victim inhale the fire, damaging their lungs which also results in suffocation.

 

I've seen that both Corpus and Grineer have pressurized suits; this is evident after you kill them. This can mean that they either use a re-breather/oxygen tank (Corpus) or receive oxygen from some other type of respiration; maybe straight into the bloodstream (Grineer). If this is the case, then the above would probably not kill. However it also means that there is an increased risk of damage to their equipment and suits (thermal expansion).

 

However it seems that Ember merely kills enemies by burning them. This is an extremely inefficient way to kill enemies, especially for the relatively low temperature of her flames (around 1000C/1800F judging from the visible spectrum). She relies on thermal decomposition (AKA charring) to let the fire eat away at the armor and reach the victim's vital organs or put them in shock. This may be the best way to kill Infested as it is unknown if they breathe or are even living.

 

In terms of vulnerabilities, it makes sense for MOA and Infested. MOA probably have sensitive electronics and may not do well under high pressure (thermal expansion) or heat. Infested generally have more surface area and as such will receive more damage from fire.

 

I also saw that some people are talking about the ship breach. While it is true that everyone (including Tenno) take damage from the breech, it shouldn't be assumed it is because of oxygen deprivation. More likely it is because of the extreme pressure changes (which should instantly kill). Also fire doesn't work in a vacuum.

 

TL;DR: Fire should do armor ignoring damage except for Infested.

 

Oh man, you people really like to over think things. It's cool and all but unnecessary IMO. But in general I agree with the conclusion.

[CloudPies]

TL;DR: Fire should do armor ignoring damage except for Infested.

[Kinethia]

Also, that type of armour would literally cost the Grineer a fortune to have the Corpus mass produce for their billions of clones.

It could literally bankrupt them.

 

Actually that's the beauty of nanoconstruction. At least in theory, once you have makers with fine enough resolution, you can churn out huge quantities of extremely complex objects like that for dirt cheap. The only expensive part is developing the original design schematic which is used as a template. Grineer are wealthy and powerful enough to pay that steep up-front cost for the ability to mass-produce a nearly endless supply of inexpensive state-of-the-art powered armour. They could use makers like those for fabricating weapons and ship parts as well.

 

In addition, any suit with a vacuum layer will be an almost perfect insulator against any heat which doesn't burn through the armour itself. That would, of course, require the suit to be sealed and contain some sort of fully pressurized life-support system.

 

However, energy shields may have already made all these technologies somewhat obsolete. With shields in play, we can't really say what's going on under the hood of those suits. That's not exactly trivial tech on display, and many Grineer have shields as part of their standard kit, including the lowly sawmen.

 

However it seems that Ember merely kills enemies by burning them. This is an extremely inefficient way to kill enemies, especially for the relatively low temperature of her flames (around 1000C/1800F judging from the visible spectrum). She relies on thermal decomposition (AKA charring) to let the fire eat away at the armor and reach the victim's vital organs or put them in shock. This may be the best way to kill Infested as it is unknown if they breathe or are even living.

 

Temperature-wise, you're assuming the default colour is canon, rather than the option for Ember to change the colour at will being the actual canonical appearance. If the colour is purely an aesthetic effect separate from the heat itself, that means the temperature range could be any arbitrary number we like, but somehow implemented in a subtler fashion. Tenno are all basically ninjas, after all. It makes sense that the real deadly effect would lie concealed beneath a surface layer of flashy but harmless pyrotechnics.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Kinethia