Petition For Beta 7X: Tech Rolling

[Thelonious]

I'm pretty sure most players got chain stun to death the first time they encountered a pack of chargers.

I can easily imagine the frustration of many fresh recruits on their first infested mission (and there's one on Mercury)

Or their first corpus mission, Moa's ftl (just after Mercury).

That can't be good for the longevity of the game, inspiring frustration to the player so early in the game is like developers shooting themselves in the knee.

And being able to refill revives with real cash is one of the worst ways of monetization, no matter how cheap it is. Remember the first day of WarZ? (its an extreme example, but still).

How many of you ever did it anyway?

So here the developers have 2 ways to improve the player experience.

- Rework/tweak the enemy abilities and AI.

They already did a good job with grenades. They still OS from nowhere, but less often :p

- Providing the player with ways to avoid/mitigate/break the effects of hard CC.

Here I'd love a system similar to Guild Wars 2 to be implemented, were the stamina bar allows for 2 dodge rolls that grants 1 sec immunity, and recovers over time. You gotta time them, they're precious, they require a good sense of timing and observation of the enemy moves. Like jumping over a shockwave, but with every other CC.

Plus it would make the stamina bar actually useful in the game :p. Of course, stamina recovery rate would have to be tweaked down, making those stamina mods really essential.

You either run, or dodge, not both, melees would have to be careful about their stamina level, not "autofire-macro-spamming-heat-sword-full-fire rate-moded-yeah-dude!!!". Yeah I know I love it too but...that's just cheap. I'm pretty sure the devs never intended for such extreme mod stacking, which would explain the fire rate nerf to heat sword...

And just the same principle for a recovery! Nothing to fancy, just a nice ninja move for the cost of stamina (maybe more than rolling) with the press of a button, to shorten the stun duration. Again, timing is important, no use in recovering next to a moa raising his foot.

In short, it would add a lot of depth without really changing difficulty, which is always good for a game.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Thelonious

[Mouf]

Tbh I don't think the game particularly needs dodge rolls with invincibility frames and timing windows and all that jazz - just the old street fighter 2 style roll (i guess that's a tech roll?) - when you get knocked down, you lie there for a moment, then when you hit a direction you roll that way as you get up. So you can reposition yourself slightly, but you can still get stunlocked - those shockwaves have a big aoe, and if there's a stompy moa in every direction no single roll will put you out of danger.

Or failing that, just a kip-up animation, even if the time spent stunned is the same. It just looks dumb as hell when your techno spaceninja gets knocked over and picks himself up like an old man with a dodgy hip.

[Disthe]

-

I see your point. Set the invicible frame to be 0.1s is to show it isn't that difficulty killer, the exact time is negotiable. Latency affect gameplay anyway, tuning the game to fit the deficiency is a palliative way. Just leave the balancing issue to devs.

Reduce damage should regard as block and suggested as another system.

-

We may found Guild Wars 2 many referable ideas but it is a MMORPG indeed, consider to the latency and game pace, the dodge system relatviely obtuse and limited(1s invicible, maximum 2 continuous dodge, 10s to recharge for one).

The classes have a lot of skills helping them to bock, aviod attack or even turn themselves invulnerable, 2 times dodge is fair enough in GW2 but not the same story in WF.

Allow me to introdue the dodge roll system of Monster Hunter. Concuming the stamina for attack, sprint, dodge roll (quite similar to WF's amount and recovery rate) or some weapons comsume it for blocking (damage reduce).

The stamina very limited the player behaviour. Always need ready their stamina for aggression and evasion. The game discourage player to spam evasion by force who used up all the stamina to have a short breathing rest.

Finally, evasion mastering requires of both stamina and tech roll tacts.

-

Well...the invinciable roll recovery in fact a derive of invincible frame roll.

They are either option, those game have them both are either hard as hell or monkey level.

1) Fighting game is mainly PVP, never decided players to win without getting hit.

Failed to block in fighting game, you gain invinciable roll recovery to stand-up and fight again. (often repeat down and recover)

You are always welcome to make up for your mistakes.

2) Action game is mainly PVE, players should try very best to avoid being damaged.

Failed to dodge with invinciable frame roll in action game, your foes gain the right to f_ck you up! (dodge or get f_ucked)

You should paid for your mistakes and learn better skill.

It depends on the game design and starting point.

[Mouf]

Well...the invinciable roll recovery in fact a derive of invincible frame roll.

Sure. I guess I wasn't even talking about tech-rolls, specifically; with the lag and all, it would be very hard to tune invincibility frames of any sort so they aren't game-breakingly easy to do or unreliable and frustrating. And if you think about it, getting stunlocked by infested/moas/shield dudes is pretty much the only way to get yourself killed short of going afk, so giving players an easy way out of it would cause issues.

I was thinking more along the lines of the recovery roll from the old street fighter 2 era - you know, when you got knocked down you bounced a couple of times, then you're lying down for a second, then you push forward or back and roll to your feet. Don't even have to be invincible, necessarily. It would just keep the movement fluid and prevent that agonizingly slow 'old-man-getting-up-from-his-favorite-chair' animation that's in the game currently.

[Disthe]

I am seriously speaking:

"Challenge Accepted! Give me both roll recovery and tech roll then tune up the game difficulty to a new level."

[Synns]

/signed this is needed

[MJ12]

How Vanquish did it was that you were invulnerable through the entire animation of your first dodge, but every subsequent dodge would reduce the invulnerability duration until you spent some time without dodging. So you can't just abuse dodging to become persistently invulnerable, and there's a strong incentive to save your dodges until when they're absolutely necessary, and time them.

A mechanic like that would work better for Warframe, since it's multiplayer and thus has to deal with latency.

[xephyris]

Signing this for space-ukemi.

[Gryphticon]

Agreed. I really hate being throwned away by a lvl 1 Shockwave MOA while having 800+ shields and lvl 30 rhino...

[CosyPigeon]

+1 need more ninja rolling and dodging in general.

[francJ]

Will do but with a long cooldown I guess.

Shockwave is slow cast and the ring expands slowly so you can do a jump do avoid it. If there are multiple of them just do a wall run or a air spin attack and get out of there. Getting a tight situation? Why are you in that situation in the first place? Grineer commander swaps you in with tons of balls banging at you? Suddenly many corpus spawn behind you and is ready to sandwich you? Well at least run to a better spot and take down priority targets first.

If you got a decent skill 4 just click it <-- (LOL Ok I promise this is the last sarcasm. Imma going to be a good boy.)

[neKroMancer]

Will do but with a long cooldown I guess.

Shockwave is slow cast and the ring expands slowly so you can do a jump do avoid it. If there are multiple of them just do a wall run or a air spin attack and get out of there. Getting a tight situation? Why are you in that situation in the first place? Grineer commander swaps you in with tons of balls banging at you? Suddenly many corpus spawn behind you and is ready to sandwich you? Well at least run to a better spot and take down priority targets first.

If you got a decent skill 4 just click it <-- (LOL Ok I promise this is the last sarcasm. Imma going to be a good boy.)

Shockwave does travel up the wall, at least Jackal's. It knocked my Rhino down the pillar in multiple occasions.

[Volume]

I'd hope it was already mentioned somewhere in this thread but DESteve says they are looking at recovery time and that it does take too long and the animation/reaction isn't very space-ninja like.

[Ronyn]

tech-rolls are a good skill based idea.

The only argument against them is "but you can just avoid the hit in the first place"

there is an odd sentiment that people asking for tech rolls are asking that the game be made easier.

That is just not the point.

Id like to remind folks that tech rolling came out of fighting games.

In fighting games you square off against another living opponent who was heck bent on trying to pummel you into the ground.

The various actions availible, including tech rolls, was to make a deep and rewarding back and forth experiance.

To create that counter,counter,counter play that makes fights so interesting to be involved in or to watch.

It was never about making the game "easier" or "less skill based". Quite the opposite.

Tech rolls in Warframe are for the same basic reasoning.

[Zyfe3rX]

What we need is a..

Knock-down / Stun protection for players who have recently got Knocked-down / Stunned ! (atleast 45 sec for stun and 10 sec for knock-down)

OR

When we are stunned, we will be able to move but cannot use skills and guns !]

Shockwave does travel up the wall, at least Jackal's. It knocked my Rhino down the pillar in multiple occasions.

i guess you dont have SKILL #2 unlocked ?

Edited March 8, 2013 by Zyfe3rX

[Linarian.]

One thing I think we need to all recall in this thread is the blocking addition in update 7. Blocking might negate the real "need" for a techroll as some feel.

I think they are neat and sure, i'll take more power as a player. but I think we should all see their implementation of blocking before we get too excited for techrolls.

[neKroMancer]

One thing I think we need to all recall in this thread is the blocking addition in update 7. Blocking might negate the real "need" for a techroll as some feel.

I think they are neat and sure, i'll take more power as a player. but I think we should all see their implementation of blocking before we get too excited for techrolls.

I think both of them are coming, for sure. Blocking (bullet deflecting) probably be the first to test things out but it really doesn't solve the problem. The problem lies in long recovery period from 'downed' status which has nothing to do with blocking.

[neKroMancer]

What we need is a..

Knock-down / Stun protection for players who have recently got Knocked-down / Stunned ! (atleast 45 sec for stun and 10 sec for knock-down)

OR

When we are stunned, we will be able to move but cannot use skills and guns !]

i guess you dont have SKILL #2 unlocked ?

That is too long. Almost invincible against stun will trivialize stun mechanic. Frankly, 2-3 second is already fine.

And about Rhino, he point is wallrunning probably doesn't help getting from shockwave. Sorry if it was unclear.

[Linarian.]

I think both of them are coming, for sure. Blocking (bullet deflecting) probably be the first to test things out but it really doesn't solve the problem. The problem lies in long recovery period from 'downed' status which has nothing to do with blocking.

I guess my point (which I am sorry if it was unclear) was you may be able to potentially block the things that are causing the stunned states or knockdowns alleviating a portion of the player frustration people are expressing.

I just wanted to bring this up as I see many threads that the Devs actually addressed in some fashion on their Q&A and want to make sure their attempt to communicate with the community was apparent and clear to those who may have missed it or are coming in after the fact.

[neKroMancer]

I guess my point (which I am sorry if it was unclear) was you may be able to potentially block the things that are causing the stunned states or knockdowns alleviating a portion of the player frustration people are expressing.

I just wanted to bring this up as I see many threads that the Devs actually addressed in some fashion on their Q&A and want to make sure their attempt to communicate with the community was apparent and clear to those who may have missed it or are coming in after the fact.

I think Q&A addressed blocking as bullet deflecting. And Steve talked about techroll as a separate subject.

[Jakiller]

Yep.

Techroll would be really useful, even more against the infested with their obnoxious stunlock fests.

[Disthe]

Time to dig up this thread.

[MakubeX]

ambulas is easy to defeat just go up in the roof of the center building.

Edited April 10, 2013 by MakubeX

[OGD2]

I think everyone agrees that stunlock and knockdowns are no fun.

In Vindictus, the character Lann has an ability called "Windmill" (I think) that allows him to get up a little faster by spinning his legs horizontally (looks a little like breakdancing) before hopping to his feet. Any enemies that are close enough to Lann while he does this have a chance to be staggered, allowing him a fair shot at getting back on his feet. This skill can only be activated in a certain window of time after being knocked down and also had a stamina cost attached to it.

I believe that implementing something similar into Warframe would be a great idea. Personally, I would imagine this ability to have a small activation window, starting when your character first hits the floor. It would also cost about 100 stamina, serving as a sort of cooldown which uses elements already present while also giving stamina mods a bit more importance. The skill itself would probably best be activated by tapping the spacebar as your character hits the floor. Upon meeting the stamina requirements and succeeding the window of activation, the "windmill" itself should allow a character to get up much quicker than currently possible while giving a fair chance to stagger enemies to help with a clean recovery.

This feature might serve as a good middle ground as far as difficulty is concerned. It wouldn't guarantee a safe recovery, but it'd give you a good shot at it. As many others have said, the best way to beat stunlock/knockdown is to avoid it altogether, but no one is perfect and this "windmill" would provide a bit of insurance should things go wrong.

[Worira]

OP suggestion BTW, pretty much sums up the modern gamer's entitled attitude: they want the game to let them make mistakes and get away with that. Currently Warframe is not like that, it is reasonably hard and, most importantly, unforgiving. Which is extremely rare these days, so I really hope it will stay like that and not become a generic modern TPS, full of autoaims, enemy indicators, regenerating everythings and instant recovery from everything bad that happens to the player. No sir, that's not what Warframe should be.

Yeah! Dang modern gamers and their not wanting to be stunlocked! Back in the good old days of Doom, if one monster hit you, you got stumbled until- oh wait no I must be thinking of something else no attack in Doom took control away from the player