Petition For Beta 7X: Tech Rolling

[Hrobot]

Tech rolling is a great idea.

OP suggestion BTW, pretty much sums up the modern gamer's entitled attitude: they want the game to let them make mistakes and get away with that. Currently Warframe is not like that, it is reasonably hard and, most importantly, unforgiving. Which is extremely rare these days, so I really hope it will stay like that and not become a generic modern TPS, full of autoaims, enemy indicators, regenerating everythings and instant recovery from everything bad that happens to the player. No sir, that's not what Warframe should be.

I don't think you should call other people entitled and then declare what a game you aren't working on should and shouldn't be. Also there is an enemy indicator artifact and regenerating shields. What Warframe shouldn't be(in your opinion) is what the game actually already is.

Modern games evolved for a reason. Frustrating situations that serve no purpose and only satisfy a niche group that want games unforgiving(and pretty much unfun), like you, have to go.

[Ronyn]

The stunlock "problem" is not a problem of getting out of it, it's a problem of not getting into it. If you let yourself become surrounded, it's your own fault. Why on earth you should have a free "get me out of the cr4p I got myself into" card? If MOAs or any other type of enemy outsmarted you, they deserve the kill. I was killed like that a handful of times and I know that it always was my own fault to not paying attention to my surroundings or simply being too reckless that got myself into being killed like that, so I have no one except myself to blame.

Every game has the potential for players to make mistakes.

Every mistake has an apporpriate penalty associated with it.

Just because something can be avoided doesnt mean its penalty is the right one.

Likewise, there are a variety of ways to increase difficulty that arent based on the idea of loss of control.

OP suggestion BTW, pretty much sums up the modern gamer's entitled attitude: they want the game to let them make mistakes and get away with that. Currently Warframe is not like that, it is reasonably hard and, most importantly, unforgiving. Which is extremely rare these days, so I really hope it will stay like that and not become a generic modern TPS, full of autoaims, enemy indicators, regenerating everythings and instant recovery from everything bad that happens to the player. No sir, that's not what Warframe should be.

None of that means that loss of control is the right answer to anything.

[haww]

The addition of QTE style movements are not good on Multiplayer games, you guys just wanna make the game easier and easier, hack and slash mode, c'mom where's the challenge? Also you can easily avoid any charge, stun, attack, think smart, play smart.

[MJ12]

The addition of QTE style movements are not good on Multiplayer games, you guys just wanna make the game easier and easier, hack and slash mode, c'mom where's the challenge? Also you can easily avoid any charge, stun, attack, think smart, play smart.

Look, if you want a game intended to penalize you for making any sort of mistake and force you to play it absolutely safe... play the original Rainbow Six. A game where you could literally turn on perfect autoaim (it was actually an option that literally gave you instant autoaim onto anything on the screen that was hostile) and the difficulty was entirely the same. Except... those games don't sell well, those games are incredibly niche, and those games are not about you being this stone cold superbadass who wipes out entire armies, whose mere presence scares the S#&$ out of an entire empire of power armored cyborg space marines.

I find it amusing that there are a lot of people in this thread who actually want to up the difficulty but understand that doing so requires having tools to get out of incredibly bad situations (because upping the difficulty will increase the number of those) no matter how terrible it is, whereas the people defending the current stun system want 'a harder game' but fail to realize that DE can't make the game any harder without adding in recovery. As it stands, most deaths are extremely frustrating already.

A hard game lives and dies on how not-frustrating dying is. "Losing is fun" is something people should remember in this case. Losing should be fun. If I get wrecked, I shouldn't be blaming the game for putting me in a bullS#&$ no-win situation. I should be able to understand:

1. Why I lost

2. What I could have done to prevent losing

Pretty much immediately. And you know, DMC1, 3, and 4, Bayonetta, Vanquish, etc. They all do that. They're all incredibly hard games. Why are they allowed to be hard? Well, you see, they let you actually get out of any bad situation. There are no stunlocks. You can parry or counter every attack in the game. In theory, you could beat the entire game without exploiting AI bugs, in melee range, surrounded by enemies, without taking a single hit ever.

Guess it must be 'super easy' and 'ultra forgiving' according to you people.

Edited February 16, 2013 by MJ12

[wheatnoodles]

+1 for rolling!!

If not rolling then.... blocking! For the melee enthusiasts. Time your blocks to make em stagger! Consume stamina when blocking attacks!

Block can use up Stamina, or partial Shield (from shockwaves) without knockdown! or at have it consume shield all the time while preventing interruption/staggeringness

but +1 for rolling

[Ronyn]

The addition of QTE style movements are not good on Multiplayer games, you guys just wanna make the game easier and easier, hack and slash mode, c'mom where's the challenge? Also you can easily avoid any charge, stun, attack, think smart, play smart.

A tech roll is not a QTE.

[AK47-2000]

Stunlock=Fear=fun . I play solo and smart .Ive looked down hall full of 10 corpus with sheild osprey just to trn around and get MOAB shockwaved 2x in my back. at times too....

I look at it like this..It takes about 1-3 seconds to kill average baddies.So im up for the challenge.

I often smile in awe with the "0o0o0" "Look . I

[Ronyn]

Stunlock=Fear=fun .

A lot of things evoke fear.

Stun lock is only one option.

[MJ12]

Stunlock=Fear=fun . I play solo and smart .Ive looked down hall full of 10 corpus with sheild osprey just to trn around and get MOAB shockwaved 2x in my back. at times too....

I look at it like this..It takes about 1-3 seconds to kill average baddies.So im up for the challenge.

I often smile in awe with the "0o0o0" "Look . I

Stunlock = Frustration = Not Fun. And in a game with a fast pace, losing control of your character is awful. If you want a game with this kind of 'fear', play Nethack and leave everyone else alone.

What happens when you die in a game like UT or CoD? You respawn again and are ready to go back into the action within seconds. What happens when you get stunlocked in Warframe? You get to wait a long time watching your health go down while you mash keys in frustration doing nothing of value. You might as well instantly die and the game would be better for it. Now, unpredictable instant kill mechanics are rightfully derided as bullS#&$. What does it say when the current mechanics are worse than bullS#&$?

[TinFoilMkIV]

I'd also like to say that just earlier today while playing a lvl 10 map ( I was levelling a new frame and weapons solo), I entered an elevator in the classic corpus tileset, and when I reach the bottom the door opens to reaveal a grineer heavy gunner, a shield lancer, and two standard lancers. As the heavy is standing right up against the door trying to get to me as it opens, he immediately does his flashbang knockdown move, followed by the shield lancers shield bash as I get up, and I was dead before my character even thought about getting up a second time. So while yes many frames do have an ability to survive that situation there are those that do not, I was actually using ash, but my smokescreen was interrupted by the initial knockdown because I wasnt expecting a pre aggro'd group of grinner to be standing all of 2 feet in front of me when the door opened.

That is not a situation that anyone should want for a properly hard game. Also as stated before, the more standard (read not power specific) counters and escapes we have, the more vicious abilities and movesets we can give to the enemies without it turning into an autolose the moment you make a single mistake near more than one enemy.

Not that super hardcore dont screw up or you die instantly mode can't be cool, just not for the entire game.

[DrAsmus]

A bunch of you need to quit playing snipetron Loki apparently. It is interesting that the amount of customization and the MMO elements of this game allow you to play however you want, leading some people to attempting to specialize in an extremely cautious, Tom Clancy first person shooter stealth type of gameplay.

Playing as Excalibur I had a divergent experience and learned how to play in a radically different way. I routinely ran into enemies I couldn't even touch and had to learn a lot of enemy specific counters, strategy and advanced movement to succeed with an entirely melee oriented warframe.

From this gameplay perspective some sort of CC recovery option is mandatory for successful and fluid gameplay since you are constantly in melee range of enemies that can stunlock you. It took me a long time to figure out how to clear waves of chargers using melee weapons without being staggered to death.

Most Loki players would have no conception of this because they weren't forced by the game to learn and really don't need any advanced movement skills to complete the game.

As a final point, take a look at the games that HAVE included a tech roll or some similar idea. Every one of them was improved by giving more depth of control to the player. Context sensitive gameplay options are rife everywhere and for good reason, and considering warframe's accretion style hybridization of gameplay elements it would actually be downright $&*&*#(%& not to add a tech roll.

[ZephyrFlow]

i like the idea of tech rolling just when you hit the ground, but take the lag into consideration, if the host is lagging or the game itself is laggy, then a tech roll would be more punishing, with that said, i'd like to propose a normal roll when you're down but with added invincibility frame to prevent enemies from punishing you even further if you mess up OR we can simply have both for everyones convenience.

Tech roll for the hardcores and Normal roll for the casuals :D

[shygddt]

+1

Just make the window super short/have penalties for missing the cue, so that it rewards proper timing instead of button mashing. Maybe something like a ninja backflip.

See: Mass Effect 3's reload animation cancel, if you cancel too early you end up with an unloaded gun, cancel too late and you might as well have not tried it.

[FreshJB2]

+1 to op

[Sealgaire]

The window to recover would definitely have to be small, with hitting the recover key outside of it canceling the techroll. I wonder how that would work with lag, though. Stuff can get pretty jittery, and I can only imagine that having the ability to avoid being knocked down and not being able to use it due to lag would be even more infuriating than the option not existing at all.

[Siilk]

I don't think you should call other people entitled and then declare what a game you aren't working on should and shouldn't be. Also there is an enemy indicator artifact and regenerating shields. What Warframe shouldn't be(in your opinion) is what the game actually already is.

We both know it's not the same things. It's rare, it's not that powerful and it's far from being a certerpiece of the game balance.

Modern games evolved for a reason. Frustrating situations that serve no purpose and only satisfy a niche group that want games unforgiving(and pretty much unfun), like you, have to go.

In other words, "make the game easy enough for me as I want to beat it even if I fail at tactics". Yep, that's how many modern games work, unfortunately.

Also, QFT:

Stunlock=Fear=fun . I play solo and smart .Ive looked down hall full of 10 corpus with sheild osprey just to trn around and get MOAB shockwaved 2x in my back. at times too....

I look at it like this..It takes about 1-3 seconds to kill average baddies.So im up for the challenge.

I often smile in awe with the "0o0o0" "Look . I

[MJ12]

We both know it's not the same things. It's rare, it's not that powerful and it's far from being a certerpiece of the game balance.

Except it's there and it's about as powerful as it is in comparable games. Probably even more, since unlike, say, Halo's motion detector Enemy Radar works on everything no matter how slowly they're crawling at you. And it's actually also available in mod form. Presumably it's just a bug that's making the mod version rare.

In other words, "make the game easy enough for me as I want to beat it even if I fail at tactics". Yep, that's how many modern games work, unfortunately.

I didn't know "tactics" involved "cheesing the enemy AI and making everything look dumb while running away in circles watching people get tripped up on pathfinding". And I do love the choice of words of 'unfortunately'.

Plenty of people enjoyed gaming in the 90s and early 00s and then started playing modern games. Many of them tried to go back to early 90s games and found that without nostalgia goggles on they actually kind of sucked in terms of game design. And the thing is... they actually weren't that difficult. They were just incredibly cheap.

I didn't have a particularly harder time beating Doom or Quake than I did Modern Warfare. It's just that MW had better pacing and fewer moments where I had to restart a level because I had 5 health left and was facing hitscan dudes. The new XCOM isn't any easier than the old one, it's just got much less arbitrary unfairness. Modern Civs aren't any easier than old ones, they're just less arbitrary. Modern fighting games aren't any less deep and interesting than older ones, they just have fewer exploits for infinite no-counter combos and the like. You guys are confusing 'arbitrary player-f**king' with 'difficulty' when they really aren't the same thing. Stunlocks/etc. are pretty arbitrary player-f**king*. Yes, if you completely removed stunlocks and changed nothing else the difficulty would become easier.

Except not only would nobody but you care (because nobody thinks 'dying to stunlock' is fun except a tiny minority of gamers who thought the coolest thing in D&D1E was "You didn't mention you check the chest for traps! YOU DIE!") but here's the think. Difficulty created out of arbitrary player-f**king is never good difficulty. There is good difficulty and bad difficulty, and bad difficulty makes the game worse even if it makes it harder.

Also, QFT:

Why not join the military if you think "Fear = Fun"? After all, you only have one life, and if you die that's it everything has gone to naught? Oh, let's not forget that real life is ultra-extra-unforgiving. Don't want to risk your acutal life? What if if you died, the game automatically formatted your hard drive and labeled you as a registered sex offender? That would make it the funnest game ever, right? After all, you'd constantly be playing in a state of fear.

The fact that you guys are masochists doesn't mean that you are normal gamers or should have any input, being that you are a self-admitted tiny minority who can't stand 'modern games'. There's GoG.com, which is a site that's specifically catering for you and your love of old-style games. Meanwhile, games like XCOM, DMC4, God Hand, Bayonetta, Vanquish, and so on prove that there are plenty of ways to make a game actually difficult while making it engaging and making it so that the player always knows that it was their mistake which caused something to go wrong. Because there's pretty much no 'unwinnable' situations in any of them. They might be nearly impossible to get out of, but that's something different entirely. That knowledge, that you can win no matter how bad the situation is, is the trick as to why modern games have better difficulty curves than old ones. Because the actual fun from 'difficulty' comes from the belief that you overcame an incredible challenge. And these games allow you to come back from extremely bad situations.

Well, maybe XCOM has unwinnable scenarios but that's what the 'Retreat' button is for, and the game is designed such that if you're falling that behind you'll probably lose pretty much immediately after.

Edited February 17, 2013 by MJ12

[Disthe]

Exactly! No more to add.

[djjdiss]

Thanks for bringing this topic up.

Every time I go into Xini I think to myself "dammit I need to make that thread about the dodge roll in this game". =P

Glad someone finally did.

Here's my suggestion: Invincibility frames.

If you need a reference then I suggest taking a look at how a game like Vindictus handles dodge rolling. Certain dodge rolls have a very small window during their animation where the player cannot be damaged while they move away from danger. Timing these rolls takes practice and is hard to master, but once done correctly makes you a brutal force to be reckoned with.

The same mechanic can be implemented here quite easily. Often times I instinctually dodge roll when an Ancient throws his lil see through stretchy hand at me thinking that I'm going to avoid being hit, yet every frickin time that arm just homes in on me and whacks me no matter what. After my shields and energy deplete I proceed to curse, bang my desk, and finally get vengeance on that ancient as tho I took his punch personally. Now I could get started talking about Ancients, but that's a whole other topic that deserves a blog with a headline that says something to the effect of: "worst video game enemy designs of 2012".

Needless to say we need something in this game to help us dodge / recover and feel more like.......well, ninjas!

Hopefully our cries will be heard as we make a river of tears to flood the office over there at DE =P

[Disthe]

+1

Dodge roll to the back of a ancient but that rubbery arm still hit you by acrossing his body.

"Needless to say we need something in this game to help us dodge / recover and feel more like.......well, ninjas!"

And that's the time to bring us real challenge!

Edited February 20, 2013 by Disthe

[gell]

I think both sides of the stunlock argument have valid points, but it really comes down to quite a bit of opinion, and also how you see game design and particularly Warframe's design.

The argument that techrolls make WF easier is poor. I rarely get stun locked, but when I do it feels awful, and games shouldn't do that. I love hard games, but usually those games are well designed, not made to crap on you for a simple mistake.

The addition of things like techrolls, tech hits, etc, to games made them more tactical and I think made them better. Not better because it's easier and I am scared of dying, but better that I have a small window of skill to get out of something, and often, when designed well like in many fighting games, another window of opportunity for the opponent.

But WF isn't a fighting game. It is a little closer to third person melee games like DMC, NInja Gaiden, although obviously it has its own things, with the guns and its melee systems aren't nearly as fluid (a dev did say they were going to add the option of attacking where your guy is facing though, rather than where the camera is looking and that's going to get it closer to those games mentioned). Those games have evolved as well, and they've become more interesting, and more difficult (DMC3 anyone?) and more fun by the addition of moves, not the lack of them.

Example 1: It would be stupid for a game like Dark Souls to not have given you a roll or parry. A troglodyte game designer could have just said hey, if a guy swings at you and you are in the way, you should get hit and that's that. It's hard and all pansies should leave. But no, there is a parry, not because it makes the game easier, but because if you're good at timing your button presses, it gives a risk/reward for getting in that situation in the first place.

Example 2: in some games there is dashing, roll evasion, blink, or slip dashing (e.g. Ninja Gaiden, Vindictus). Without it, you would just play a game of running up to the non-mob enemy, hitting them once or twice, then running away. Because these bosses or tougher enemies can't be staggered, or it takes too big a move to do often, the game gives you another move: the dash with invincibility frames. Is this a get out of jail free card because the player is too bad he was in the way of a large attack? Sometimes. But what else does it add? It allows the player to be more aggressive and take the risk of getting in closer for more damage, but also at the risk of getting hit way more often than just doing a hit and run over and over (boring and repetitive).

^ I think the same is why techrolls exist. No one would argue fighting games got way easier because techs were added (I get that they are PvP, but it still applies). Not having those options promotes less play styles. Without these things, if you want to really stay out of harm's way, you play a more cautious game, of hit and run or staying back and sniping.

So just straight adding techroll could be a get out of jail free card (for people with good timing), but it also promotes more aggression, particularly close ranged attacks. It could also allow the devs to also get creative with enemies that might take advantage of a ninja who just popped back up into the air. So while it comes down to opinion, I prefer when games give me options, more freedom in play, not less freedom and more finite outcomes.

Edited February 19, 2013 by gell

[neKroMancer]

I think tech roll and invincibility frame may change the gameplay as a whole. Since players can use these features to get close to the target easily - more agressive, close range gameplay will be promoted. Enemies will be more agressive in both short range and long range. Gameplay will be faster as a whole and punish those who do not use agility to their advantage. Actually, melee and range should be balanced accordingly.

The problem is how to balance range and melee combat when tech roll and invincibility frame are applied in the game? Games like DMC3 which is pretty hard didin't truly solve this trouble. It relied on melee combat more than range and guns are generally weaker and used to chain combo together when target is out of range ( gunslinger was generally harder than swordmaster, but doable).

Tech roll and invincibility frame are generally used with melee/projectile range attack evasion. However, many weapons that the enemies in Warframe wield are hitscan. Players will spam invincibility frame to get out of sticky situation in stead of play smart. I think tech roll and acrobatic moves with damage reduction would be better in Warframe's gameplay (actually, I think Grineer's accuracy drop when player goes crazy with acrobatic move lately which is fine).

[Disthe]

I think tech roll and invincibility frame may change the gameplay as a whole. Since players can use these features to get close to the target easily - more agressive, close range gameplay will be promoted. Enemies will be more agressive in both short range and long range. Gameplay will be faster as a whole and punish those who do not use agility to their advantage. Actually, melee and range should be balanced accordingly.

The problem is how to balance range and melee combat when tech roll and invincibility frame are applied in the game? Games like DMC3 which is pretty hard didin't truly solve this trouble. It relied on melee combat more than range and guns are generally weaker and used to chain combo together when target is out of range ( gunslinger was generally harder than swordmaster, but doable).

Tech roll and invincibility frame are generally used with melee/projectile range attack evasion. However, many weapons that the enemies in Warframe wield are hitscan. Players will spam invincibility frame to get out of sticky situation in stead of play smart. I think tech roll and acrobatic moves with damage reduction would be better in Warframe's gameplay (actually, I think Grineer's accuracy drop when player goes crazy with acrobatic move lately which is fine).

If a tech roll can spam to get close to the target or get rib of trouble easily is a crappy designed roll.

The invincibility frame should be very short like maybe~0.1s but the whole action of roll is 1s that expose a undefending body for other~0.9s. Tech roll is a double edge sword should treat as urgent evasion (If u can run away from the attack like ice wave, u don't need tech roll). For those who mastered the timing of a tech roll can greatly improve the survivability but who spam tech roll will definetly 'farewell'.

Tech roll basically unable to dodge hitscan weapons of Grineer, players still need obstacle to cover. Tech roll can deal with Corpus, Infestion who are generally use projectile and melee attacks.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Disthe

[shygddt]

Example 1: It would be stupid for a game like Dark Souls to not have given you a roll or parry. A troglodyte game designer could have just said hey, if a guy swings at you and you are in the way, you should get hit and that's that. It's hard and all pansies should leave. But no, there is a parry, not because it makes the game easier, but because if you're good at timing your button presses, it gives a risk/reward for getting in that situation in the first place.

Example 2: in some games there is dashing, roll evasion, blink, or slip dashing (e.g. Ninja Gaiden, Vindictus). Without it, you would just play a game of running up to the non-mob enemy, hitting them once or twice, then running away. Because these bosses or tougher enemies can't be staggered, or it takes too big a move to do often, the game gives you another move: the dash with invincibility frames. Is this a get out of jail free card because the player is too bad he was in the way of a large attack? Sometimes. But what else does it add? It allows the player to be more aggressive and take the risk of getting in closer for more damage, but also at the risk of getting hit way more often than just doing a hit and run over and over (boring and repetitive).

Exactly. For example, DMC3 has a ton of moves which gives you invincibility frames, even a move which negates all damage if you block at the right time. Does it make the game easy? Hell no. Does it make the game fun? Hell yes! Because the window is so short (a fraction of a second) the player ends up taking damage on mis-timed presses, so you can't get through the game by spamming the block button.

Case in point:

- keep in mind this is a tournament entry and he makes it look easy.

[neKroMancer]

If a tech roll can spam to get close to the target or get rib of trouble easily is a crappy designed roll.

The invincibility frame should be very short like maybe~0.1s but the whole action of roll is 1s that expose a undefending body for other~0.9s. Tech roll is a double edge sword should treat as urgent evasion (If u can run away from the attack like ice wave, u don't need tech roll). For those who mastered the timing of a tech roll can greatly improve the survivability but who spam tech roll will definetly 'farewell'.

Tech roll basically unable to dodge hitscan weapons of Grineer, players still need obstacle to cover. Tech roll can deal with Corpus, Infestion who are generally use projectile and melee attacks.

That's understandable. It should works in an optimal environment.

However, Warframe is a P2P game which means there'll always be a little lag in every game. A 0.1 second invincibility frame will be useless to anyone but the host. I usually play with 0.2 - 0.3 second lag and that's quite understandable. For other players who isn't the host, 0.1 second window which player can activate invincibility frame is too small to be of any use. The reason that invincibility frame reliably works in DMC and other fighting games is because most of them are 'offline'. When there's lag involve, player simply has to compensate for such thing by himself and that's not fun.

However, prolonging invincibility window means player will take advantage of it. Which is why I prefer dodge roll with appropriate damage reduction during the animation would work better with WF's network environment and acrobatic movements.

What do you guys think?