[Suggestion] Use Atmospheric Archguns with Atmospheric Archwings

[Steel_Rook]

This is a pretty dirt-simple suggestion. Please allow me to equip my Atmospheric Archgun (the Archwing primary as used in Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis) at the same time as I'm flying in my Atmospheric Archwing (the one called via the Archwing Launcher). Right now, calling in my Archwing will disable my Archgun, and I'm barred from calling the Archgun while the Archwing is active. Considering these two items were originally made to go together in space, I don't see why they'd be incompatible on the ground provided I can already use them separately. It's not like Archguns are all that powerful anyway, and they're already limited by a cooldown on the gear item.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Steel_Rook

[EiriMatsu]

On 2019-01-27 at 11:39 PM, Steel_Rook said:

This is a pretty dirt-simple suggestion. Please allow me to equip my Atmospheric Archgun (the Archwing primary as used in Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis) at the same time as I'm flying in my Atmospheric Archwing (the one called via the Archwing Launcher). Right now, calling in my Archwing will disable my Archgun, and I'm barred from calling the Archgun while the Archwing is active. Considering these two items were originally made to go together in space, I don't see why they'd be incompatible on the ground provided I can already use them separately. It's not like Archguns are all that powerful anyway, and they're already limited by a cooldown on the gear item.

There is a reason beyond a mechanical barrier for using Archguns behind the existence of Gravimags.  There's a even simpler answer for why your suggestion doesn't work: Atmospheric.  While, of course, a detailed analysis of Warframe's technology would open up a lot of issues when compared to real-life physics, DE does make a decent attempt at keeping the world fairly grounded in science. 

Our Archwings are significantly slower in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis than in space; air provides resistance, slowing us down.  In addition, the entire reason for the existence of Gravimags (lore-wise) is that they are too heavy to use.  Of course, the two pieces of equipment work together beautifully in space.  There's no gravity, so they are weightless!  However, we were previously barred from using Archguns because our Warframes just can't handle them in an atmosphere.  That's where the Gravimag came in: it is designed to mitigate gravity's influence on the weapon, making it "weigh less."  This, in turn, makes it quite possible for use to use.

Aside from the potential ability of repulsive Cassimir forces utilizing negative energy to produce a vacuum, there's very little solid theory on methods to creating, especially in a compact form, a method of "negating" gravity.  By its components, we can gain an idea about how it works.  Gyro systems compensate for the "bulk" of the weapon, likely stabilizing its center of mass so that it's much more feasible to wield.  Atmo systems probably adjust the "behavior" of the weapon to compensate for problems only occurring in an atmosphere.  Repeller systems are likely what ever variation on the Cassimir force setup is supposed to me, providing some sort of method to reduce or nullify the effect of gravity on the weapon, making it significantly lighter.

Regardless of what science they want to use, a lore-based justification is the fairly reasonable assumption that any device that screws with gravity will quite likely make flying very difficult if not impossible.  The operation of the archwings themselves are already quite out of the realm of realistic science to explain, but if one assumes any sort of gravity generator or nullifier is also present, the presence of the Gravimag could very well counteract the archwing and cause it to malfunction.(the opposite always true as well).

On the side of game mechanics, who knows. /shrugs

[Steel_Rook]

10 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

There is a reason beyond a mechanical barrier for using Archguns behind the existence of Gravimags.  There's a even simpler answer for why your suggestion doesn't work: Atmospheric.  While, of course, a detailed analysis of Warframe's technology would open up a lot of issues when compared to real-life physics, DE does make a decent attempt at keeping the world fairly grounded in science. 

For one, that's a Thermian Argument. That decision is entirely up to DE, and the lore you're citing (without citation, mind you), is working backwards from that decision. The same arguments were made against Atmospheric Archguns in the first place, and that didn't stop them from happening. Additionally, I'm willing to bet real money the reason this is the case has nothing to do with lore. You can't use Gear Items with the Archwing equipped, and the Atmospheric Archgun is a gear item rather than an equipped weapon. These things are remarkably buggy in their current implementation, from visual bugs to implementation bugs to performance bugs to mechanics bugs. Losing my Archgun when equipping my Archwing is no different from losing my Archgun when attempting to pick up a battery.

 

10 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Our Archwings are significantly slower in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis than in space; air provides resistance, slowing us down.  In addition, the entire reason for the existence of Gravimags (lore-wise) is that they are too heavy to use.  Of course, the two pieces of equipment work together beautifully in space.  There's no gravity, so they are weightless!  However, we were previously barred from using Archguns because our Warframes just can't handle them in an atmosphere.  That's where the Gravimag came in: it is designed to mitigate gravity's influence on the weapon, making it "weigh less."  This, in turn, makes it quite possible for use to use. 

Years ago in City of Heroes, a pathing node graph bug caused random civilian to gather congregate at a slanted sewer entrance, constantly running up it and then sliding back down, over and over again. This eventually became known as the "super fun happy slide" after a joke from the Simpsons. Years later, the bug was finally fixed, causing people to reminisce about missing it. Eventually, the development team added a commemorative plaque retelling the events of how a psychic supervillain had surreptitiously affected the minds of local residents, causing them to mindlessly throw themselves against a random sewer gate for reasons I don't remember. While that was done as a joke lampshading a bug which took about five years to fix, it's nonetheless now part of the game's canon.

All of that is to say that no, Archwings in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis are not slower because they're being slowed down by air resistance. They're slower because the maps are far smaller than the 10x10 km maps Archwings were originally designed, thus their original speeds would make them both unwieldy and too fast to make terrain meaningful. The same reason applies to why Archwing AoE ranges are slashed down to a tenth of their normal distance - the engagement distances in Archwing missions are FAR longer than those in open-world ground maps, thus default Archwing ranges would cover far too much ground, especially allowing the Elytron to insta-nuke every engagement. The way Archwings and Archguns work is not driven by lore, it's driven by mechanics and implementation. If they were, Archwings would not have been usable underwater on Uranus, where precisely none of the space rules apply.

There's really nothing lost in allowing players a few more uses of our Archguns, certainly not Warframe Technobabble that the game has not actually introduced at any point. For all of its weird space ninja sci-fi, Warframe has explained nearly none of its mechanics in any practical way - not in-game, anyway. It has the scientific background of Star Wars, in that physics is only a limitation when it supports an interesting plot and at nearly no other time so we can have abstract and interesting ship, weapon and structure designs. There's no interesting plot behind blocking the use of Archguns from being used with an Archwing in the Plains or the Vallis, especially since I'm more than positive they aren't going to get used a lot anyway.

[EiriMatsu]

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

For one, that's a Thermian Argument. That decision is entirely up to DE, and the lore you're citing (without citation, mind you), is working backwards from that decision.

I'd argue with you that concept of a "Thermian Argument" is a fallacy at best, but that would be a separate conversation and beyond the point. 

For lore citation:

22 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

In addition, the entire reason for the existence of Gravimags (lore-wise) is that they are too heavy to use.

"A modular component that allows massively heavy objects to be manipulated by a single user" as quoted from the description of the Repeller Systems.  Now if you can tell me how repulsion makes something heavy able to be used by a single user other than "technobabble," color me impressed.  I do understand I am not DE, but that is a potential argument they can use to justify it.

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

All of that is to say that no, Archwings in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis are not slower because they're being slowed down by air resistance. They're slower because the maps are far smaller than the 10x10 km maps Archwings were originally designed, thus their original speeds would make them both unwieldy and too fast to make terrain meaningful. The same reason applies to why Archwing AoE ranges are slashed down to a tenth of their normal distance - the engagement distances in Archwing missions are FAR longer than those in open-world ground maps,

Just because there is a mechanical reason for it doesn't mean there can't be a lore-based reason, either.  Personally, I feel the best content a game can have is one that provides both lore and mechanical purposes.  The inability of Warframes to swim and the inclusion of underwater archwings are an example of bad mechanics without lore; argon crystals are a poor lore justification for a fine (but strangely random) game mechanic, and the Helminth Charger is a spectacular usage of both.

 

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

There's really nothing lost in allowing players a few more uses of our Archguns, certainly not Warframe Technobabble that the game has not actually introduced at any point. For all of its weird space ninja sci-fi, Warframe has explained nearly none of its mechanics in any practical way - not in-game, anyway. It has the scientific background of Star Wars, in that physics is only a limitation when it supports an interesting plot and at nearly no other time so we can have abstract and interesting ship, weapon and structure designs. There's no interesting plot behind blocking the use of Archguns from being used with an Archwing in the Plains or the Vallis, especially since I'm more than positive they aren't going to get used a lot anyway.

That last statement is oh too true. 😣

I would disagree with the argument that Warframe explains none of its mechanics.  If you can say that Excalibur Umbra's existence isn't explained, I think you need to replay the Sacrifice. 😉  Star Wars is a good comparison, honestly.  They do what they can to try to keep in-game content and mechanics consistent, but definitely have a lot of failings in that (like underwater archwings, which is neither good lore nor a good mechanic).

Interestingly, in my research for lore citations, I did indeed find contradictory evidence supporting the ability to use archguns with our archwings in atmospheric space:

"Eudico has just sent over this wonderful GRAVIMAG upgrade that lets you deploy an Archwing primary on land or in the air. The process to install the GRAVIMAG is straight-forward and simple. Ready? Let's go." From Ordis, when you receive the Gravimag from Ordis in the mail after completing Phase 3.

I doubt they meant jumping when they said "in the air."  So I guess, even if they tried to argue lore, they've already cornered themselves in that regard. 😶

22 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

On the side of game mechanics, who knows. /shrugs

It's a fair assumption that it is indeed to do with mechanical problems regarding gear.  I've seen/heard many people mention difficulties even getting the archgun to work on the gear menu, requiring 2-3 clicks to start.  We can partially use some gear in the archwings (pulling out the tranq rifle to see track locations while flying) in exchange for the ability to boost.  However, at the same time, I feel that allowing both at the same time would result in people just cheesing the Profit Taker in invisible Itzals from the top of the map (which can already be done to the shields using sniper rifles).  I have fun using the archguns despite their inherent inferiority to standard primaries (and arguably even secondaries), so I'd like to see the change done.

[Steel_Rook]

9 minutes ago, EiriMatsu said:

Just because there is a mechanical reason for it doesn't mean there can't be a lore-based reason, either. Personally, I feel the best content a game can have is one that provides both lore and mechanical purposes.

And I don't disagree - a lore explanation for game mechanics is always welcome. My argument here, though, is that I have no reason to believe the game's lore is driving its mechanics when it comes to... Practically anything to do with Archwings. I'm rather reminded of a random comment on Akira Toriyama's reasoning for various plot points in Dragon Ball: "It was cool, it saved him work, he forgot. Take a pick." In this case, I don't feel that our inability to use Archguns with Archwings on the Plains really adds to the game, even if it can be explained via lore.

The broader issue is Archwings themselves are terribly implemented, from the perspective of future-proofing at least. I get the impression that DE never intended for them to be anything more than a de-facto space ship in space missions, which is why they have their own skillsets and stats more suited to engagement ranges in the 500m to 1Km neighbourhood. That's a problem once you start mixing them together with ground combat and Warframe gear. Hence why those ridiculous guided AA rockets which ignore defensive abilities exist, and particularly why the Profit-Taker Orb spams them relentlessly. Their whole point is to keep you from using your Archwing to any significant degree.

I understand that what I'm proposing will affect fairly few people since not many even care to use their Archwings for combat. Maybe they'll get some kind of major revamp with Railjack, but I just kind of want to get as much use out of them as I can until then.

 

22 minutes ago, EiriMatsu said:

However, at the same time, I feel that allowing both at the same time would result in people just cheesing the Profit Taker in invisible Itzals from the top of the map (which can already be done to the shields using sniper rifles).

I've already been doing something similar to the Eidolons in Cetus. The Amesha Archwing is basically unkillable unless I fall asleep at the wheel, so I've taken to just jumping into my Archwing any time I'm not using my Operator. I assume that's why the Profit-Taker will spam AA missiles like they're going out of style, as I said above. There's A LOT to be said about the integration of Archwings into not-purely-Archwing content, but I feel a lot of the restrictions on them are driven less by lore and more by technical issues to do with their implementation.

Although if you want to cheese enemies with invisibility, doesn't Ivara already do that? Off-topic, bust just curious.

[EiriMatsu]

32 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

In this case, I don't feel that our inability to use Archguns with Archwings on the Plains really adds to the game, even if it can be explained via lore.

100% agreed, especially considering their currently weak state.  I've actually taken to using them purely for the challenge of it.  Something fun about loading 400 rounds into a Nox that feels oddly more satisfying than killing him with two shots from my Vectis P.  I was sad when we didn't get the arch-melee too, since they are mostly worthless.  Now if only the cooldown would go away...

 

35 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Although if you want to cheese enemies with invisibility, doesn't Ivara already do that? Off-topic, bust just curious.

I haven't tried any invisible frames in the profit taker fight, to be honest, since I just take Chroma for the faster kill-time. Haven't seen any used either.  Would be an interesting experiment, especially with silenced weapons, just to try to bypass the mooks.

37 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I understand that what I'm proposing will affect fairly few people since not many even care to use their Archwings for combat. Maybe they'll get some kind of major revamp with Railjack, but I just kind of want to get as much use out of them as I can until then.

Yeah, I've just kind of resolved myself to most archwing changes from here on out just being major fixes (like ending the bonus ammo on primaries from Ammo Chain, which was spectacular but totally broken) until Railjack.  It would definitely be nice to see this changed if it is indeed not a design decision by DE mechanically.

[Steel_Rook]

8 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

100% agreed, especially considering their currently weak state.  I've actually taken to using them purely for the challenge of it.  Something fun about loading 400 rounds into a Nox that feels oddly more satisfying than killing him with two shots from my Vectis P.  I was sad when we didn't get the arch-melee too, since they are mostly worthless.  Now if only the cooldown would go away...

Yeah, that's the odd part. DE have been pretty unambiguous in wanting Atmospheric Archguns to be essentially a "mini-nuke" - something you call in occasionally to add punch to your arsenal, but not something you can just use all of the time. And that would be fine, if not for the fact that most of the Archguns... Really aren't that good. The majority are buildable for neither Crit nor Status which means that their generally higher base stats don't scale up very well. The majority of them also suck ass altogether, such as the Corvas shotgun being weaker than a lot of Warframe shotguns AND staggering the player on a fully-charged shot. I mean... Why? Having played through all of the Atmospheric Archguns at this point, I'd say the only decent ones are the Imperator Vandal (because it's the only not-horribly-bugged Archgun) and the Fluctus (because of its massive AoE headshot spam capacity). Pretty much everything else is between "meh" and "WHY?!?" And mind you, that's after a MAJOR buff to a lot of Archgun mods.

It just seemed that - given the above - placing further limitations on Archguns just seemed unnecessary.

 

8 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Yeah, I've just kind of resolved myself to most archwing changes from here on out just being major fixes (like ending the bonus ammo on primaries from Ammo Chain, which was spectacular but totally broken) until Railjack.  It would definitely be nice to see this changed if it is indeed not a design decision by DE mechanically.

I worry about what happens to Archwings even then, though. Their core problem, in my opinion, is being usable so very rarely in only a handful of locations. The Plains and the Vallis were meant - I think - to expand their use substantially, but then they're also filled with those unnecessary AA missiles which knock you out of your Archwing and hit through any amount of defensive abilities, seemingly just to prevent you from using the damn thing. There seems to be significant resistance to letting us have aerial combat or even air-to-ground combat in our Archwings, giving us access only grudgingly. Having used my Amesha extensively fighting Eidolons and just generally in the Plains, I'd LOVE to be able to do more with it, but the game's design just doesn't like me doing this and will try to screw with me at every step.

My Sentinel gets left behind and killed without me, my Scarab Armour gets disabled costing me 2900 health to replenish every time I land, missiles constantly knock me out of the sky, I can't use my Archgun, I can't use my melee weapon, I can't carry necessary items, etc. Even at the best of times, my Master Thief doesn't work at unlocking lockers underground, nor does my Loot Detector work when trying to scan for Cetus Wisps from the air. I don't know how much of that is just technical issues and a half-baked mechanic and how much of it is DE worrying about players just using their Archwings on all of the open-world maps constantly, but trying to do anything more complex than "travel" with an Archwing is a very hostile experience right now.