Is There A Reason You Nerfed Ash And Loki?

[Ganpot]

Prior to Update 10, Invisibility and Smokescreen (as well as the cloaking provided by the Shade sentinel) provided invulnerability during their effects.  This might at first seem unfair, but Loki is one of the squishiest frames in the game, and Ash's other abilities largely suck (Shuriken is decent, Teleport is useless, and Bladestorm is mediocre at best).  These abilities also didn't protect against knock-downs.  Both warframes were largely considered mid-tier. 

 

For whatever reason, the devs have decided to eliminate the invulnerability provided by these effects.  I've just tried out both Loki and Ash, and the effects of this change are devastating.  First of all, because of Loki's long-standing bug, his Invisibility does not cover his sentinel.  Which means that using Invisibility no longer makes any difference, because every nearby enemy will just aim for your sentinel and kill you in the cross-fire. 

 

Not only that, but now Ash and Loki are abysmal at teamwork (and Ash was already the worst frame in the game in that regard).  If any teammates are around you, enemies will still cut you to pieces.  So now these frames are actively punished for working in a group.

 

Lastly, enemies continue to shoot wildly in the direction of where they last saw a target.  Whereas this was just a nice visual beforehand, it is now incredibly lethal.  At higher levels, enemies could already deal massive amounts of damage during the cast time of Invisibility and Smokescreen (around 1 second).  Now that damage simply continues afterwards as well. 

 

 

I don't care if this change is kept for PvP (it actually makes sense there), but it has no place in PvE.  As of now, Ash and Loki are low-tier. 

[Lyphian]

Yes there is a reason. To make the game better, as always.

[Ganpot]

Yes there is a reason. To make the game better, as always.

 

I fail to see how this makes the game better, since Ash and Loki were already not as powerful as Rhino, Nova, Frost, Nyx, Vauban, and Saryn.  I don't even main Ash or Loki, but this is just stupid. 

[DeathPope]

i dont understand how you can think that 100% immunity was a good thing, the point of those frames is to play like an assassin, not pop smoke and go to town on the mobs with your rifle melee weapon... shade and maxed frame mods allowed ash and loki to solo bosses like this without even being attacked..

 

how can you call that balanced
 

Edited September 15, 2013 by DeathPope

[1Rogue]

Because it's "Invisibility", not "Invincibility"

[sambarpowder]

I can't help but cringe every time this sort of complaint appears...

 

Bugs are bugs, whether they contribute to a frame's strength and viability or not. Balancing for Ash and Loki will be approached independently of changes like this, and is a completely different issue. Whether DE will bother balancing these frames is unknown, but they've been going over frames a few at a time, so no doubt Ash and Loki will get their day in the sunshine.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Crossflip

[SergeantHam]

while i don't like how you are using the tier system i agree that the change was unneeded.

[DeathPope]

tier lists are made by the community based on opinions on how well frames work at extreme late game.. a maxed out ash is still going to do work dont worry about it

Edited September 15, 2013 by DeathPope

[Aure7]

what did you say about ash and his teleport?!?!?! I think it's a typo

[Anatolius]

Realistically

when you are invisible you arent getting hit because people dont see you

so it would make sense that a stray bullet could hit you if you are running with others. Ive never used a sentinel with Loki ever since I found out they cant be cloaked

 

But they should have at least given us the ability to cloak our sentinels

Edited September 15, 2013 by Anatolius

[DeathPope]

they did its called shade

[ProjectKaeon]

Wait what? Since when did Loki ever get Invincibility during the effects of invisibility?

 

I play Loki all the time, and I don't think there was ever invincibility involved.

 

I must be missing something but please explain.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NBlitZ

[LegacyOfLamb]

what did you say about ash and his teleport?!?!?! I think it's a typo

Don't know if biased, or blind

[helosie]

Obvious reason: PvP balance.

[Aryajmarya]

Ash and Loki are the only frames I have. T_T

Make Loki take damage; his invis last forever.

But Ash? Without mods to boost it, a level 3 Smoke screen barely lasts to escape a situation, not to mention half the time it's used to avoid a heavy gunner or shield lancer, and then you get knocked down anyway, causing you to use it again moments later.

[AlchemistMute]

Wait what? Since when did Loki ever get Invincibility during the effects of invisibility?

 

I play Loki all the time, and I don't think there was ever invincibility involved.

 

I must be missing something but please explain.

Most bullets would just go straight through a cloaked character. Not all, but most. Now it's fixed.

[DeathPope]

i really am confused by these posts, ash has one of the highest base health's in the game..if i get in the face of a heavy gunner with a nova im going to go down, so you want a frame with already high base health to be invincible in stealth.. but lets even go one step further, can attack from stealth.. seems balanced to me...

Edited September 15, 2013 by DeathPope

[Vras]

Above poster, you forgot Loki, one of the frames with the weakest base health.

 

Like the OP said, It is bothersome when I'm standing invisible next to teammates and the enemy fires at them but hits me instead. Kind of makes being invisible pointless. (While next to teammates) If soloing however, I'm fine with it because I can easily just run out of the way and they'll stop firing eventually.

 

Also, we should have the ability to cloak our sentinels now more than ever. Enemies firing at my sentinel still hit me ALOT. I've stopped using sentinels altogether just so this wouldn't happen. It limits how you can play. I shouldn't have to NOT use a sentinel to get the full effect from my invisibility. Really wish DE would hop on this. Or explain why not.

[Roltair]

I've also noticed that enemies seem to go completely unaware of you if you kill them all and are still cloaked. So the next set of enemies don't seem to be looking for you.

[chimp77]

Not only that, but now Ash and Loki are abysmal at teamwork (and Ash was already the worst frame in the game in that regard).  If any teammates are around you, enemies will still cut you to pieces.  So now these frames are actively punished for working in a group.

 

Invisibility was never a team skill! Why do you think they have Decoy, Radial Disarm, Shuriken, and Bladestorm? Also teleporting is kinda helpful for getting out of enemy fire, so I don't understand your complaint there.

 

I don't even main Ash or Loki...

 

That explains a lot...

[BlackBearStyle]

I main Ash and I swear I haven't noticed a difference,

 

 and with Ash, Teleport while Smokescreen is still in effect, see if that doesn't help. (Lol at teleport being useless)

Edited September 15, 2013 by BlackBearStyle

[DreamlessMemory]

Wait, what? This is the first time I have ever heard that you were invincible while invisible. I've been downed tons of times while invis pre-U10 due to crossfire.

Most bullets would just go straight through a cloaked character. Not all, but most. Now it's fixed.

Okay, so invincibility while cloaked was a bug and now it's back to what is was before? That sounds more like it.

 

If it wasn't, I don't care. I asssumed I was just as squishy regardless of visibility.

[Ganpot]

Invisibility was never a team skill! Why do you think they have Decoy, Radial Disarm, Shuriken, and Bladestorm? Also teleporting is kinda helpful for getting out of enemy fire, so I don't understand your complaint there.

 

You do realize this is supposed to be a co-op game, right?  There is a massive difference between having an ability not be effected by the presence of teammates, and one which actively punishes co-op play.  Would you be okay with Radial Disarm also disarming your teammates?  I don't think so. 

 

Decoy doesn't last long on higher levels, and Bladestorm is one of the worst team-friendly ultimates in the game (due to the time it takes to kill enemies).  Teleport just opens you up to even more damage due to its stupid flipping animation (unless that has been recently fixed). 

 

 

That explains a lot...

 

Don't underestimate my amount of experience.  I've played for 300 hours, and while my current main is Nyx, I've also played as Ash for roughly 70 hours (cumulative).  I have played every frame except for Banshee and Nekros quite extensively; I tend to know what I'm talking about. 

 

 

i really am confused by these posts, ash has one of the highest base health's in the game..if i get in the face of a heavy gunner with a nova im going to go down, so you want a frame with already high base health to be invincible in stealth..

 

Nova is a glass cannon.  She can kill the heavy runner (as well as every other nearby enemy) from a long way away.  She also has a pretty good escape mechanism in the form of Wormhole.  Ash doesn't even have close to the highest tank stats in the game.  He's got 100 shields (average), 150 health (high), and 50 armor (average).  Frost, Rhino, and Saryn all beat Ash quite easily in this regard and they also have better abilities.

[lautalocos]

im an ash player (and an ex loki player before i reseted my account) and i must say that this change is good. why do you think they nerfed all those skills that made you invulnerable? necause they where too much. besides, it seems that loki with streamline, energy siphon and continuitym one of his 2 helmets and constitucion made him capable of being almost always invisible

[AbsolutionZero]

Invisibility never made you invincible. At least not from my experience.

 

I've had my share of dmg while being invisible, but it's not like I died from it. I don't see the point in complaining about this.

 

It's not a big deal, if anything, it's better this way. No more Godmode-type BS in the game cept Trin's Blessing, which is decent.