Melee Risk Vs Reward

[Hollow_Knight]

 

Did I miss anything?

 

Ok clearly this diagram is an exaggeration,  but one thing that does bother me is that the ranged weapons are capable of significantly more damage than most of the melee weapons.  Some melee weapons, particularly the heavy weapons do the trick, but the risk required to get that close on higher level missions is extreme.  Assuming you can get through the endless knockdown by ancients, scorpions, every Grineer heavy, and Moas, you've still got to contend with the fact that you are now completely exposed and right in the middle of all the enemies.

 

Now obviously you have your powers to get you out of situations like this, but again, come the later difficulty levels their effectiveness starts to dwindle, and without a good melee weapon you're well and truly stuffed.

 

What to do about it?  Well, it's probably clear by now that I think we need to see a bit less knockdown, as it stands, Rhino is the only frame with even a hope of getting into melee range all his vital organs, let alone getting out.  yes I'm aware that with both sure footed and fortitude I could have a super-awesome 80% resistance to said knockdown, which sounds awesome on paper until you realise what you need to give up for it (usually something power strength/duration/whatever) and you figure out that actually, you're still going to go down like a sack of potatoes roughly once every 5 times.

 

But this is far from a complete solution, what do you guys think?  Any better ideas?  Or am I just terrible at melee?

 

NOTE This thread was started before the Galatine was released.  Now, the Galatine is an exceptional weapon that greatly increases the amount of damage you can do in melee.  That being said, it doesn't address the primary problems of making a melee build.  That is, being at melee range is a dangerous place to be, coupled with the mod cost required to build a melee frame are steep prices to pay for very little reward

Edited October 2, 2013 by Hollow_Knight

[Archistopheles]

Yes. You somehow forgot about the crowd control melee offers (knockdown, stagger, stun), and the fact that the Glaive and Kestrel exist.

[Brimir]

Making things dead is also a great form of crowd control.

 

Something ranged combat excels at.

[Aure7]

Yes. You somehow forgot about the crowd control melee offers (knockdown, stagger, stun), and the fact that the Glaive and Kestrel exist.

but that shouldn't be the only reason for melee. I already do up to 60% of my kills with melee depending on the mission, only because my fingers are just itching to get up close and melee, that's what these kind of games thought me. I just wish that melee would be discussed among the ultimate gear and you could see some people sprinting with melee on void t3 defense or something.

[Hollow_Knight]

The Glaive and the Kestrel are much better now with the new mods, but they still suffer a lot when it comes to the actual damage they can deal.

 

As for the crowd control, A. not nearly fast enough against large numbers of ranged enemies, B. only way to actually a stun a Grineer heavy doing his ground slam is to kill him, which lends a lot of weight to Brimir's assertion death is the most effective from of crowd control.

[Syllabea]

That's why you mix up range and melee. Shoot down heavies and really anything that can easily knock you down and melee swarms of small units.

[Gryphticon]

Glaive user here and I must say, you're telling the truth, I use only glaive for a reason, it's ranged.

[Andaeros]

There are ways(mods cards, timing, positioning, speed) to avoid knockdown, and some abilities that ignore knockdown during use such as banshee's sonic boom(kind of a counter-knockdown). Glaive is great for knockdown enemies, especially when it's powered up appropriately. The fact that melee -can't- do everything ranged combat can is a good thing however; I contend that it's why we carry three different weapons, which is to be versatile ideally.

 

Sometimes you can perform an aerial kick to knockdown a heavy before they manage to use their own as well, then you have them downed and you get an easy finisher move as well as them being vulnerable for a few seconds. If you have a freeze mod that effect lasts even longer.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Andaeros

[Brimir]

Another point: The Ignis buff made Grineers Scorchers insane. As if the Grineer needed more anti-melee countermeasures.

[SkyGoBrrrr]

No, my brother loves to melee as well. It's always funny watching him getting slapped around, but it shouldn't happen as often as it does. There was one time a shield lancer kept him on the ground for a good minute until he could use one of his abilities. 

 

Yes, there's mods for that. (I feel like DE is taking pointers from Apple.. There's a mod for that!) However, like you said, implementing them into you Warframe means your powers won't be as powerful, or you won't be as sturdy as you once were. There really needs to be a medium here more than anything. Tenno are space ninjas, yet the AI pretty much prevents the use of melee weapons.

[Brimir]

Band-aid mods is not the way to make melee viable. You don't need band-aid mods to make ranged weapons viable, why should you have to handicap yourself when it comes to melee?

[Andaeros]

No, my brother loves to melee as well. It's always funny watching him getting slapped around, but it shouldn't happen as often as it does. There was one time a shield lancer kept him on the ground for a good minute until he could use one of his abilities. 

 

Yes, there's mods for that. (I feel like DE is taking pointers from Apple.. There's a mod for that!) However, like you said, implementing them into you Warframe means your powers won't be as powerful, or you won't be as sturdy as you once were. There really needs to be a medium here more than anything. Tenno are space ninjas, yet the AI pretty much prevents the use of melee weapons.

 

The AI is challenging to melee combat at times, but I disagree that it prevents its use. It also depends on the enemy whether or not melee would be a wise choice over staying back and using cover or just avoiding the fight altogether.

 

Edit: To Brimir above me - You mod ranged weapons to make them viable, they aren't left empty. Implying melee is useless without mods is as true as primary or secondary weaps being useless without mods.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Andaeros

[Archistopheles]

but that shouldn't be the only reason for melee. I already do up to 60% of my kills with melee depending on the mission, only because my fingers are just itching to get up close and melee, that's what these kind of games thought me. I just wish that melee would be discussed among the ultimate gear and you could see some people sprinting with melee on void t3 defense or something.

 

You should see the Saryn + Contagion + Ichor + Berserker combination.

 

I'm working on a similar build that uses Parry and Reflection as well, but with a heavy weapon. Once people realize the potential melee has (no reloading) and people start experimenting, then you'll see a shift in the meta.

[Brimir]

 

Edit: To Brimir above me - You mod ranged weapons to make them viable, they aren't left empty. Implying melee is useless without mods is as true as primary or secondary weaps being useless without mods.

 

Now you're just playing dumb (I hope!)

 

I obviously meant WARFRAME mods (like resist knockdown, like you brought up in a previous post) not WEAPON mods.

[Hayden11121]

Yes. You somehow forgot about the crowd control melee offers (knockdown, stagger, stun), and the fact that the Glaive and Kestrel exist.

I did not realize throwing your melee weapon considered it a melee weapon, still.

[Mainabi]

You should see the Saryn + Contagion + Ichor + Berserker combination.

 

I'm working on a similar build that uses Parry and Reflection as well, but with a heavy weapon. Once people realize the potential melee has (no reloading) and people start experimenting, then you'll see a shift in the meta.

I got that build including rage and quick thinking and sure footed

 

still takes me 4x longer than with a gun (for example braton prime)

[Archistopheles]

I did not realize throwing your melee weapon considered it a melee weapon, still.

 

Depends on the definition of the word melee.

 

 

I got that build including rage and quick thinking and sure footed

 

still takes me 4x longer than with a gun (for example braton prime)

 

That's depressing. I hope my version will be better, I'll keep everyone posted.

[Hollow_Knight]

That's why you mix up range and melee. Shoot down heavies and really anything that can easily knock you down and melee swarms of small units.

 

You're absolutely right, mixed is generally the most effective way to play.

 

My issue is that I LOVE playing melee (until I get ganked by a heavy or something)  but I can't make a purely melee build that really works.

 

But if I said to myself: 'Screw melee, I LOVE GUNS!'  the game would reward me with numerous potential builds and uber-powerful nonsense like the Acrid or the Ogris.

 

I'd like the option of playing a more melee focused build.

[Brimir]

I'd like the option of playing a more melee focused build.

 

Weeeeeell. You can. But it is restricted to either Rhino, Loki or Ash since they can easily bypass all the anti-fun, anti-melee nonsense. Any other Warframe and you'd have to make massive sacrifices to be able to do the same.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Brimir

[Andaeros]

Now you're just playing dumb (I hope!)

 

I obviously meant WARFRAME mods (like resist knockdown, like you brought up in a previous post) not WEAPON mods.

Misunderstood what you meant in referring to mods for the frame, but then again knockdown resist seems perfectly viable for something to put on the frame rather than the weapon. I've used it for defense missions, I think it's fortitude or constitution that has a dual effect too. Even so, I personally can attest to melee being viable without knockdown mods(although they're convenient) as I pretty exclusively used that for the first few months of playing the game. (Volt, dual heat swords if curious; But that was before its armor was reduced to 10 points of cardboard)

 

It's unwise to solely rely on melee of course, but it can be very effective if used with care. That being said the recent adjustments and buffs to certain enemies has harmed the effectiveness from what it had been previously, -especially- the scorchers.

 

Edit: In re-reading this, it kind of seems that melee has been nerfed if anything, but maybe that's just speculation.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Andaeros

[Brimir]

Misunderstood what you meant in referring to mods for the frame, but then again knockdown resist seems perfectly viable for something to put on the frame rather than the weapon. I've used it for defense missions, I think it's fortitude or constitution that has a dual effect too. Even so, I personally can attest to melee being viable without knockdown mods(although they're convenient) as I pretty exclusively used that for the first few months of playing the game. (Volt, dual heat swords if curious; But that was before its armor was reduced to 10 points of cardboard)

 

It's unwise to solely rely on melee of course, but it can be very effective if used with care. That being said the recent adjustments and buffs to certain enemies has harmed the effectiveness from what it had been previously, -especially- the scorchers.

 

The Scorchers are just ridicilous right now. They're not just anti-melee, they're anti-everything. They have suprisingly long range, huge AoE and the ability to penetrate cover - and then that 1-2 seconds insta kill damage.

 

Jebus.

[R3leaZ]

Death by boredom? I actually feel quite happy landing all my shots on the weakpoints of an enemy. Feels like I'm using more skill to aim more pin-point, I actually find melee quite boring but that's my opinion.

 

I don't like using overpowered weapons so if I manage to land all my bullets from my Brandal on the weakspot of an enemy at marksman range I feel quite content while also playing a mini-game of reaction speed. Being able to instantly pinpoint aim at weakspots from enemies even at large distances is really satisfying.

[Mainabi]

That's depressing. I hope my version will be better, I'll keep everyone posted.

thanks to rage, sure footed and quick thinking (and usual vitality) you don't die anymore or at least that fast.

your version can't be better if we've got the same mods. dual ichor does 1600dps (sustained with berserker mod included) contagion only adds around 400 extra dmg that'll be 2000 sustained dps that's weak.

and Dual Ichor are supposed to be top tier Regular Melee, boltor deals min 3.5k sustained dps (incl reload time without reload mods, and with rainbow build)

that's simply too low for a high tier melee, supposed to be best melee, boltor also staggers has okayish range and also ignores armor completely and still does way more dmg

edit: and steel charge only does 18%

Edited September 26, 2013 by Seira-EGT-

[Brimir]

Edit: In re-reading this, it kind of seems that melee has been nerfed if anything, but maybe that's just speculation.

 

 

On the CC side of things it most certainly has. The Bo used to be awesome; AoE ragdolling on it's Charge Attack. Now that weapon has been reduced to a joke...

[Andaeros]

On the CC side of things it most certainly has. The Bo used to be awesome; AoE ragdolling on it's Charge Attack. Now that weapon has been reduced to a joke...

Nobody I've seen has used the bo for months. I was meaning to add this to my previous post but didn't want to get too long with it, the fact that scorchers can't be blocked with shield abilities is a problem to me. I've experienced the osprey corrupted lasers going through electric shield as well, but it's been inconsistent so I've yet to submit a ticket as it's hard to make a reliable case for it yet.

 

I think it's just frost and volt that have shield abilities, and in something like defense where you're often in tight quarters, and (ideally) grouped around the cryopod or whatever that scorcher flame at high levels can mean a wipe. Not to mention the grineer napalm, which is just hellish.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Andaeros