Simple improvements for better Void Fissure experience

[Nadrac]

1. Allow joining ongoing games

2. Minimum 10 relics to join endless missions

3. If you don't select a relic, you put in a random one instead. There is never a reason to not put in a relic, if you leave you don't use it.

4. Leave squad puts you into your own instance without a way to get new players, instead of ending the mission, this way remaining players can get a replacement faster

5. Flawless/Radiant or better mode

 

 

[Uhkretor]

44 minutes ago, Nadrac said:

1. Allow joining ongoing games

2. Minimum 10 relics to join endless missions

3. If you don't select a relic, you put in a random one instead. There is never a reason to not put in a relic, if you leave you don't use it.

4. Leave squad puts you into your own instance without a way to get new players, instead of ending the mission, this way remaining players can get a replacement faster

5. Flawless/Radiant or better mode

1. Why?

2. Why?

3. Why?

4. Why?

5. Why?

 

... I don't want to sound like a moron, but you did suggest stuff but you forgot to explain why.

[Nadrac]

2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

1. Why?

2. Why?

3. Why?

4. Why?

5. Why?

 

... I don't want to sound like a moron, but you did suggest stuff but you forgot to explain why.

1. So games are not ruined by leavers, but players still can leave. Now if 3 players want to play but 1 wants to leave, 3 players will be disappointed.

2. There is no point joining endless mission for a few rounds. Staying for 5 round is the minimum that makes sense.

3. I explained this, but currently players use no relic as a way to signal their intention to leave, and later they can't change their mind, and sometimes they do stick around. No relic only guarantees that you get no reward for staying. I suspect players are also afraid to lose their stones, they think they lose it if they don't open it.

4. So the team can find a replacement faster and the player can leave faster. Instead of waiting a minute at the exit, they would be able to extract instantly.

5. Rad Shares are very popular, this would make the process of finding one less painful, which is what matchmaker should do.

 

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Allow joining ongoing games

The main reason I see they don't do this (at least to an unlimited extent) is because parties can have mixed players. People who have gone through the starchart can still end up on Earth nodes alongside players who've been playing for 15 minutes. Those older players could have been playing the mission for an hour and have enemies at a level that'll ruin the experience of that 15-minute newbie. That might not be terribly common, but it's not something that should happen in the first place.

There's the secondary reason of build-up. See, e.g., Chroma, current Combo Counter (not going to be relevant in near future, albeit). Certain things can reach higher levels because they have the time to build up their kit or get into a rhythm or whatever else up to that point. Throwing them in the middle with a cold start can be frustrating if not detrimental.

4 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Minimum 10 relics to join endless missions

Not everybody or every group goes by the 5 round minimum. Also, even if you had a 5 round minimum, that'd be a 5 relic minimum to coincide. Why double it?

4 hours ago, Nadrac said:

If you don't select a relic, you put in a random one instead. There is never a reason to not put in a relic, if you leave you don't use it.

This has a potential for causing so much frustration for little gain. Game freezes / you go AFK / some kind of emergency happens and you end up getting that one rare relic you wanted to rad up selected? Time to abort. Or just not bust it open, which would be the same as not equipping it at all. Which would mean the group not only loses a relic, they lose an entire player and, because of the issues with point 1, would be down a relic for likely the rest of the mission instead of just one time. Which would likely mean dropping one player would still just have the entire team extract.

Given the rationale that "they can't change their mind later", would it almost make more sense to tie relic equipment to the gear wheel so that players can change their mind, if that's the main reason behind that change?

4 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Leave squad puts you into your own instance without a way to get new players, instead of ending the mission, this way remaining players can get a replacement faster

This doesn't match with the reason that people can exit faster. I mean, why not just cut down the extract timer instead? Why throw that extracting player into a new instance? That just seems like unnecessary overhead if they're trying to exit the mission - and if they aren't, why are they leaving the squad? What's the use-case for that?

4 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Flawless/Radiant or better mode

This is what LFG is best for, especially because staggered radshares (which wouldn't work in this mode!) aren't that uncommon either.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Tyreaus

[Uhkretor]

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

1. So games are not ruined by leavers, but players still can leave. Now if 3 players want to play but 1 wants to leave, 3 players will be disappointed.

2. There is no point joining endless mission for a few rounds. Staying for 5 round is the minimum that makes sense.

3. I explained this, but currently players use no relic as a way to signal their intention to leave, and later they can't change their mind, and sometimes they do stick around. No relic only guarantees that you get no reward for staying. I suspect players are also afraid to lose their stones, they think they lose it if they don't open it.

4. So the team can find a replacement faster and the player can leave faster. Instead of waiting a minute at the exit, they would be able to extract instantly.

5. Rad Shares are very popular, this would make the process of finding one less painful, which is what matchmaker should do.

... Go on, time to debate your views with Tyreaus... I'll see if its worth butting into it later on...

[Nadrac]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

The main reason I see they don't do this (at least to an unlimited extent) is because parties can have mixed players. People who have gone through the starchart can still end up on Earth nodes alongside players who've been playing for 15 minutes. Those older players could have been playing the mission for an hour and have enemies at a level that'll ruin the experience of that 15-minute newbie. That might not be terribly common, but it's not something that should happen in the first place.

There's the secondary reason of build-up. See, e.g., Chroma, current Combo Counter (not going to be relevant in near future, albeit). Certain things can reach higher levels because they have the time to build up their kit or get into a rhythm or whatever else up to that point. Throwing them in the middle with a cold start can be frustrating if not detrimental.

Interesting point, they can tie it to mastery rank a little bit, so players don't end up in too challenging missions.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Not everybody or every group goes by the 5 round minimum. Also, even if you had a 5 round minimum, that'd be a 5 relic minimum to coincide. Why double it?

Mainly because of disruption, unlike older modes where you might as well leave at 5, but you might want to stay to 8 or 10, in disruption it's worth going as far as you can. The last pub disruption i played went on for 10 rounds, which felt like a good time to end it, and it felt nice that i could stay. Ultimately as long as players keep joining in place of leavers this doesn't matter, A rotation warriors coming in with one relic would only hurt themselves.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

This has a potential for causing so much frustration for little gain. Game freezes / you go AFK / some kind of emergency happens and you end up getting that one rare relic you wanted to rad up selected? Time to abort. Or just not bust it open, which would be the same as not equipping it at all. Which would mean the group not only loses a relic, they lose an entire player and, because of the issues with point 1, would be down a relic for likely the rest of the mission instead of just one time. Which would likely mean dropping one player would still just have the entire team extract.

Possibly a better solution would be that if you don't select a relic you simply leave the game like in defense, and it counts as if you extracted. Groups only have to run to the end if they wish to leave mid round. Running to the exit is not really part of the challenge, and not like you have to find it.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Given the rationale that "they can't change their mind later", would it almost make more sense to tie relic equipment to the gear wheel so that players can change their mind, if that's the main reason behind that change?

I wouldn't be against changing your relic in the round, however DE wants to discourage players from looking at menus, like you can't open up a mod config linked in the chat while you are in a mission, and it would kill recruit chat relic shares.

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

This is what LFG is best for, especially because staggered radshares (which wouldn't work in this mode!) aren't that uncommon either.

Exactly, they are fairly common, so shouldn't they have a matchmaker? The void has a matchmaker, and at least 20% of the time players are using enhanced relics.

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Interesting point, they can tie it to mastery rank a little bit, so players don't end up in too challenging missions.

I'm not sure how that would work for certain. Does the game of the person joining check with the host to find out what level enemies are, or how far into the mission they are? I'm not 100% certain how current matchmaking works, so I'm very iffy on endorsing that kind of system when it could very well spam the host with those requests (and the host is churning enough getting requests to the players in the squad). Not to mention whether there are enough players in the host's region playing that particular node in that particular MR range: it feels like that narrows things down so much that losing a player indefinitely could happen not infrequently. And given every other suggestion is tied to that eternal drop-in/drop-out system, that makes the whole proposal iffy.

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Mainly because of disruption, unlike older modes where you might as well leave at 5, but you might want to stay to 8 or 10, in disruption it's worth going as far as you can. The last pub disruption i played went on for 10 rounds, which felt like a good time to end it, and it felt nice that i could stay. Ultimately as long as players keep joining in place of leavers this doesn't matter, A rotation warriors coming in with one relic would only hurt themselves.

I haven't yet played disruption fissures so I can't say how many rotations people like to do. At the end of the day, I can only point out that it's what feels comfortable to you, and for something like this to work, a wider playerbase very much should be polled. However, given other changes proposed here, I'm not sure it would even be necessary to instate a minimum - as you mentioned.

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Possibly a better solution would be that if you don't select a relic you simply leave the game like in defense, and it counts as if you extracted. Groups only have to run to the end if they wish to leave mid round. Running to the exit is not really part of the challenge, and not like you have to find it.

I'm not sure how well that kind of on-demand extract would sit with those 'extract node' missions. I smell potential for abuse by lazy players. Not a huge impact, but still iffy.

As for groups running to the end, it's more about the entire team losing out on a player - but as I already mentioned, this pretty much ties to the first part.

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

I wouldn't be against changing your relic in the round, however DE wants to discourage players from looking at menus, like you can't open up a mod config linked in the chat while you are in a mission, and it would kill recruit chat relic shares.

A fair point.

2 hours ago, Nadrac said:

Exactly, they are fairly common, so shouldn't they have a matchmaker? The void has a matchmaker, and at least 20% of the time players are using enhanced relics.

The problem with the mode, at least with the minute amount of detail provided, is that everyone would have to provide a Flawless / Radiant relic. But that excludes people doing staggered Radshare variants (where players don't all equip Radiant relics at one time). So it fails to service that group, and I don't see a way it could service that group. Matchmaking with drop-in/drop-out mechanics, as a general system, doesn't like "at least one" situations for the amount of data chunks it has to query. How many people are in all-Rads vs Rad staggers...I have no idea, I can't start to estimate that. But that's an important thing to consider.