Lost Interest

[ZeroPhobic]

I loved this game pre-U10, I really played all the time and loved every minute, but ever since they locked up Mutagen and made this last update a bit "grindy" I have lost total interest in the game. I wish this was just a problem that I had and was not a problem for anyone else was experiencing, but my clan has stopped playing, only one member has been on this week. When I do pop on to do a quick check in, only a couple people on my friends list are on and a couple times, none of those guys were on either. With 80+ friends, odds are a chunk should be playing and have in the past, they are all very active players.

 

I understand the thinking of the grind from the DE side, they wanted to give us more content or allow this update to not be a one night playthrough and we are all done with it and wanting more the next day, but for me how they went about doing it completely killed my "want" to play the game, I feel it was a forcing us to grind, almost like working for my fun. Before U10 there was no work at all to the fun, I jumped in this game between classes or to get a break from homework and looked forward to it after the day was done. For those of us in college or even at work need something to look forward to at the end of the day, not more work. I can handle complete and total sweeping changes to every part of a game, but when a dev locks up a basic resource and make it a ton of work to even get to and then farm forever to craft, it becomes something I can not do.

 

Unlock the fun, make materials for any crafting project something we can get to easily and naturally in the gameplay, not a forced march. I really need my favorite game to be fun again, something I can escape to.

[Mampara]

Give them a break, everyone makes mistakes. They have come a long way from January when I started and I'm sure you can appreciate what they've done, If you've ever played Runescape this is nothing close, the grind in Runescape is far more time consuming.

The game is a grinding games, it's the style of it and that's why I love it. It's something I look forward to do and it's rewarding, considering you're a grand master you took some interest in this game and you can't just say the grind isn't fun.

If you honestly don't like the grind, I don't see how you could buy a grand master. But who am I to judge it's all perspective when it comes down to it.

[Westmin]

I really don't understand these posts. It's like you give up before even beginning to comprehend how easy things are to get.

Crafting materials are things you get by easily and naturally. You have to do exactly 1 thing different: spend about 75 seconds in menus: 1) build a key (four clicks: market > blueprint > foundry > build (wait exactly SIXTY (60) seconds >) 2) play.. You get components from literally EVERY map. There is nothing at all forcing you to change how you play. If you prefer defense, great. Rush? break a few crates on the way. Survival? Even better. There is no "ton of work" to be had. Play and be rewarded, but if you expect to get new content with a 30 minute lunch break and get the new warframe in an evening... I don't feel any sympathy.

[Ced23Ric]

Give them a break, everyone makes mistakes.

 

Mistakes are okay if people learn from them, not step into increasingly large puddles. At the point where players are being told they are playing the game wrong and stuff like Djinn, the referral system and the double key grind with hours of production time, borked up drop tables with omitted or nerfed drop rates go live and are only amended after datamining, we are not in "Whoops!"-country anymore. I can understand the OP. Mindless faith is not going to fix this game. A shift in policy is needed, sooner or later. Misinformation and/or discrepancies between reality and statements are worrisome.

 

You get components from literally EVERY map.

 

Because we made DE fix the droprates by datamining. Enjoy the fruits of the labour of others, good sir, but don't claim all is dandy after people fought for your enjoyment, too.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[ZeroPhobic]

Give them a break, everyone makes mistakes. They have come a long way from January when I started and I'm sure you can appreciate what they've done, If you've ever played Runescape this is nothing close, the grind in Runescape is far more time consuming.

The game is a grinding games, it's the style of it and that's why I love it. It's something I look forward to do and it's rewarding, considering you're a grand master you took some interest in this game and you can't just say the grind isn't fun.

If you honestly don't like the grind, I don't see how you could buy a grand master. But who am I to judge it's all perspective when it comes down to it.

I understand, as I have said in the post, that people and devs make mistakes. I do know this may just be a short lived thing and I hope it is. And I do love this game, full stop. I have given money, time, and tried to offer help to improve it. My concern is that this one point, the Mutagen grind, is simply not needed. A basic material should never be a grind point, all other things in the game, for example parts for prime frames and weapons, should. Yes, of course it sucks to grind them out, but it is also very rewarding to finally get the last piece we have been hunting for and crafting it.

 

As for the basic materials, if they lock these up and make us grind for other materials to forge a key just so we can go farm more materials, this becomes a job. Warframe is way too fun to be a job, and this is what has caused me to lose interest, I wish it didn't, I really do. I love this game so much. It is one of my all time favorite games, that is why this change is so hard for me. I need my Warframe fix, and I just can't get the desire to want to, it's killing me, truly.

Edited September 27, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[ZeroPhobic]

I really don't understand these posts. It's like you give up before even beginning to comprehend how easy things are to get.

Crafting materials are things you get by easily and naturally. You have to do exactly 1 thing different: spend about 75 seconds in menus: 1) build a key (four clicks: market > blueprint > foundry > build (wait exactly SIXTY (60) seconds >) 2) play.. You get components from literally EVERY map. There is nothing at all forcing you to change how you play. If you prefer defense, great. Rush? break a few crates on the way. Survival? Even better. There is no "ton of work" to be had. Play and be rewarded, but if you expect to get new content with a 30 minute lunch break and get the new warframe in an evening... I don't feel any sympathy.

Look at it from my view, I have poured materials into my clan dojo and research recipes. I'm running on empty material wise, so I am at almost new guy level when it comes to materials. I do not have a large store up of mats anymore. So I have to go grind for materials to make keys, to get mutagen and then have to grind materials to make mutagen masses and then have to go grind even more materials to finally make one new item.

 

I really do not mind the grind, but that extra step at the beginning to grind to get material for the key to farm for yet another material is not needed. For basic materials it should come, as you say, through playing the game and not a ton of work. You are seeing my point, but from the other side of the street, I'm with you, it should be natural and fun, and that is exactly what I'm asking for.

 

For people with tons of reserves that have had tons forever so this wasn't an issue, congrats! For those of us who have been using tons of materials and have never stopped grinding, this is not a speed bump it is a wall they put up.

Edited September 27, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[ZeroPhobic]

Mistakes are okay if people learn from them, not step into increasingly large puddles. At the point where players are being told they are playing the game wrong and stuff like Djinn, the referral system and the double key grind with hours of production time, borked up drop tables with omitted or nerfed drop rates go live and are only amended after datamining, we are not in "Whoops!"-country anymore. I can understand the OP. Mindless faith is not going to fix this game. A shift in policy is needed, sooner or later. Misinformation and/or discrepancies between reality and statements are worrisome.

 

 

Because we made DE fix the droprates by datamining. Enjoy the fruits of the labour of others, good sir, but don't claim all is dandy after people fought for your enjoyment, too.

Ced23Ric,

Long time no see. I'm sorry you are not admin anymore for whatever reason, but I'm glad we don't have to butt heads anymore, as well. As for your response, I couldn't agree more, my friend. We need to speak up if we see the issue and hope they see the choir of insanity on these boards and take the steps to fix these glaring issues.

This game is a passion for a lot fo us and we just want what is best for it, I truly believe this issue is not good for the future of this game.

[ZeroPhobic]

I was reading through some of the other posts around, and DE_Megan said on one of them that she (which I hope means DE) is looking into the Mutagen issue and is seeing that it is universal, people are feeling this way. So this may lead to a change, and hope has sparked once again for me.

 

I really don't mind them trying crazy things and shaking up the game once and awhile, I just hope DE always has one thought first, "How can we make this more fun" Because, I believe if that is their first drive, stuff like the double key grind and locking mutagen behind a key will be mistakes of the past. I have said it before and I'll say it again, "this game is way too fun to be work" lets keep it that way.

[Tudi69]

Look at it from my view, I have poured materials into my clan dojo and research recipes. I'm running on empty material wise

i feel your pain here. Might take another 100 hour to get all the mats i need :)

[General_Krull]

I got lucky, I heard infested weapons were coming so I started mass producing mutagen masses. by the time the update hit I had 24.  That's 240 mutagen samples. And as I was in moon clan the research required close to 8000 mutagen samples per weapon/senntinel. Kind of a pig move to lock mutagen masses in a dirtier version of void.

[ZeroPhobic]

I got lucky, I heard infested weapons were coming so I started mass producing mutagen masses. by the time the update hit I had 24.  That's 240 mutagen samples. And as I was in moon clan the research required close to 8000 mutagen samples per weapon/senntinel. Kind of a pig move to lock mutagen masses in a dirtier version of void.

You sir, are a genius! I wish I would have had the forsight that you did. I was and am still trying to build my dojo in the middle of all this, and now that most if not all the the clan have dropped out for the time being it has slowed to a real crawl. I spent every last mutagen I had in the research and I thought I had far too many stored up (I did have hundreds before U10), I was wrong as it turns out. They did refund a few, but only a handful, after the price fix and one mutagen mass, so I'm a step in the right direction.

Edited September 27, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[noneuklid]

To be honest, the biggest problem I've been having with Update 10 is that it's not click-and-go.  I like being able to queue for a mission -- I especially like being able to queue for a mission and know that people are going to join it (many Defense or Survival missions, and also Alerts, even if only for credits).  Getting a team into the Derelict requires more patience and more organization.  These are great qualities to develop, but I find I look to Warframe more for reflex and spontaneity.

[Mampara]

Mistakes are okay if people learn from them, not step into increasingly large puddles. At the point where players are being told they are playing the game wrong and stuff like Djinn, the referral system and the double key grind with hours of production time, borked up drop tables with omitted or nerfed drop rates go live and are only amended after datamining, we are not in "Whoops!"-country anymore. I can understand the OP. Mindless faith is not going to fix this game. A shift in policy is needed, sooner or later. Misinformation and/or discrepancies between reality and statements are worrisome.

Yeah they have made big mistakes, I'm not denying it, there were some things they did wrong, not denying that either. However, do you know how sad it must feel when you hear that after you've spent hours upon hours creating weapons, new areas and missions, etc, then to have your feedback just total aggression all because you made a mistake, sure the mistake was quite a big one but it feels like DE were just un-appreciated the entire time.

I love nearly everything about the update and I'm not saying this because it's Warframe, I can honestly say that they have done a good job, it may be hard for people to look over the mistakes and issues but come on, we either make DE feel second hand or we help by constructive criticism and down right being friendly. NO ONE wants to help some who's going to be mean and too stubborn to listen and get a feel for new things and I doubt the DEV's wouldn't want to hear it either, they're people too.

This probably isn't making much sense, but in my mind the update was good and Warframe DEV's are the best game DEV's the gaming industry has had for a long time. They freaken made an apology and had everyone who logged in Update 10, receive 50 Platinum.

I'll going to stop ranting about this, none of this is productive or necessary.

[Mampara]

I understand, as I have said in the post, that people and devs make mistakes. I do know this may just be a short lived thing and I hope it is. And I do love this game, full stop. I have given money, time, and tried to offer help to improve it. My concern is that this one point, the Mutagen grind, is simply not needed. A basic material should never be a grind point, all other things in the game, for example parts for prime frames and weapons, should. Yes, of course it sucks to grind them out, but it is also very rewarding to finally get the last piece we have been hunting for and crafting it.

 

As for the basic materials, if they lock these up and make us grind for other materials to forge a key just so we can go farm more materials, this becomes a job. Warframe is way too fun to be a job, and this is what has caused me to lose interest, I wish it didn't, I really do. I love this game so much. It is one of my all time favorite games, that is why this change is so hard for me. I need my Warframe fix, and I just can't get the desire to want to, it's killing me, truly.

I understand and you have every reason to believe that, it's just I've become so fond of Warframe that maybe my judgement is clouded, either way I'm sticking with Warframe for the long hall.

[General_Krull]

Snip

No one is saying the developers are bad, just the management. And even then they're not malicious, more clueless than anything.

[Strac_CRO]

My clan has 620 members (maybe 60-100 active players) and nobody is going to OROKIN DERELICT missions.

 

The problem is the key making and than matchmaking (you can't just join random missions like in standard planets)

 

Now our clan is without Mutagen samples so we can't build new stuff in bio-lab (6.000 mutagens for resarch per item !!!!!).

 

Nice going DE, I'll take a break from Warframe and play some BFBC2 & BF3 to prepare for BF4

Edited September 27, 2013 by Strac_CRO

[Ced23Ric]

[...]

 

The core of the problem is not being unappreciative. The derelict looks glorious, Nekros is, albeit a wonky, fresh breeze, the Soma is a dang good weapon, and the UI is slowly getting places - there is progress, benficial progress. But despite the things that are good, some glaring issues are bad - and they are not bad since yesterday. A perpetual decline in enjoyment cannot be mitigated by pretty tilesets.

 

The gripe is not and has never been with the good people putting in the hours to create and repair. Mynki is universially loved. The mappers are doing good work. The art assets and concepting crew is working hard. The problem is and has been for a while now the upper echelons, the misdirection and misinformation, the seemingly worsening lack of communication and the direction the rest of the game is going. Instead of enriching gameplay, we get more grind. Saying "Whoops, so much grind, sorry." and then, adding more is hypocrisy. If we wouldn't have caused a ruckus over the drop rates, it would have gone on with the blanket statements of "Nothing has changed, trust us!" instead of the fixes.

 

That is where the gripe is. The stuff that works, the stuff that is good is being appreciated.

 

The general decisions and the direction is not.

 

PS: The drop rate incident is the second time this happened. Giving out 50 Plat and 1 Mutagen Mass is a token of apology, not a fix of general behaviour. An apology is only as good as the actions that follow it. Giving out candy does not make a bad thing into a good thing.

 

"Beware Klingons bearing gifts."

- Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy, Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Colp]

 

The core of the problem is not being unappreciative. The derelict looks glorious, Nekros is, albeit a wonky, fresh breeze, the Soma is a dang good weapon, and the UI is slowly getting places - there is progress, benficial progress. But despite the things that are good, some glaring issues are bad - and they are not bad since yesterday. A perpetual decline in enjoyment cannot be mitigated by pretty tilesets.

 

The gripe is not and has never been with the good people putting in the hours to create and repair. Mynki is universially loved. The mappers are doing good work. The art assets and concepting crew is working hard. The problem is and has been for a while now the upper echelons, the misdirection and misinformation, the seemingly worsening lack of communication and the direction the rest of the game is going. Instead of enriching gameplay, we get more grind. Saying "Whoops, so much grind, sorry." and then, adding more is hypocrisy. If we wouldn't have caused a ruckus over the drop rates, it would have gone on with the blanket statements of "Nothing has changed, trust us!" instead of the fixes.

 

That is where the gripe is. The stuff that works, the stuff that is good is being appreciated.

 

The general decisions and the direction is not.

 

PS: The drop rate incident is the second time this happened. Giving out 50 Plat and 1 Mutagen Mass is a token of apology, not a fix of general behaviour. An apology is only as good as the actions that follow it. Giving out candy does not make a bad thing into a good thing.

 

"Beware Klingons bearing gifts."

- Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy, Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan.

 

Well said.

[ZeroPhobic]

Well said.

Very well said!!

[ZeroPhobic]

I love nearly everything about the update and I'm not saying this because it's Warframe, I can honestly say that they have done a good job, it may be hard for people to look over the mistakes and issues but come on, we either make DE feel second hand or we help by constructive criticism and down right being friendly. NO ONE wants to help some who's going to be mean and too stubborn to listen and get a feel for new things and I doubt the DEV's wouldn't want to hear it either, they're people too.

 

I hate to disagree with you here, but I'm not being mean or stubburn in this post. In fact, all I am asking for is for them to rethink the lock of Mutagen and possibly move it back to where it was in a natural fun place to farm. If they want us to revisit the new tile set give us good fun reasons to go back like unique mods or maybe move nightmare to this location and make it a toggle, this tile set screams nightmare mode. Either way, the only thing being pointed out here is locking up a basic resource is in my opinion a bad move and this move killed my drive to farm these new weapons and clantech gear, which in turn made me lose interest in the game.

 

The good news is they appear to be looking into this which gives me hope that this post and others like it are being looked at, and we the people who feel this is a point of change have a bit of hope at the end of this tunnel.

 

I liked a lot of the U10 work and am thankful we have it, but locking the Mutagen has hurt the "want" I used to have to play this game, so I voiced it. After all that is what we are here for, our feedback.

 

I can live with all the changes they have made in all other updates and usually after some tweaks and playtime most everyone else can too, but this one was a huge wall for me and I believe it would be for others as well. Not those who have a huge stock pile, but of the new players coming in and those of us who used resource after resource building and rebuilding things after some of these changes have come down the pipe.

 

I am not ranting and raving asking for free resources or for them to change the game in weird new ways, I am asking that they might rethink a poor choice and that is all.

[ZeroPhobic]

My clan has 620 members (maybe 60-100 active players) and nobody is going to OROKIN DERELICT missions.

 

The problem is the key making and than matchmaking (you can't just join random missions like in standard planets)

 

Now our clan is without Mutagen samples so we can't build new stuff in bio-lab (6.000 mutagens for resarch per item !!!!!).

 

Nice going DE, I'll take a break from Warframe and play some BFBC2 & BF3 to prepare for BF4

My clan doesn't have those numbers, but we do have the same problems. I have been doing the research solo while trying to finish the rebuild of the dojo, I don't think people who are not in these types of problems see it from our point of view and think we are just in here complaining for the sake of it. I wish it were the case, I could fix me just having the urge to complain. Hitting this Mutagen wall was rough. I laid out the figures from the test day I did with a bunch of runs to try and figure out the time I was going to need to farm everything, I don't have those on hand now, but it was something of 120 hours just for mats, for builds and then another 40ish 50ish for dojo mats and thats if everything dropped first run, but we know it takes way more than one run for a few of the rare mats to drop.

 

It is not a matter of grinding, been dealing with it since day one, the problem is adding that extra step to the grind kind of really hurt. If they had Mutagen on the new tile set as well as the two original planets, problem solved, really.

Edited September 27, 2013 by ZeroPhobic

[mrfluffydeath]

ZeroPhobic, on 27 Sept 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Very well said!!

As well spoken, and often correct as Ced is, I fear that at this point not only are his words falling on deaf ears, but his words are willfully ignored.

[KuroAka]

Seems that all DE does anymore with every patch since update 7 is make change after change that are not tested properly and are only mistake after mistake. Leaving players to only be frustrated and lose interest in the game; seems to me that is not a great way to keep a player base and have players enjoy the game one month and just hate it the next. DE should really be making much more wiser designs chooses. Anymore it feels like with every patch they don't even test any of the changes internally, and when something just isn't right with it; they should be fixing it right away. Not having the players give up, stop playing in hope that they will get their act together for the next patch. They have the design console but do they use it for any changes to the core gameplay and get suggestions from the players and their feedback on what things are being implemented in an upcoming patch? NO! DE does not, they are squandering a great tool that they could be using to improve the game immensely. Which at some point gets me thinking that DE only seems to be making a game for themselves and not for the actual players that are spending time and money on it.       

[gell]

^ @KuroAka That's a very short-sighted view of how the game works.

 

Maybe as a game designer I understand what DE is going through, although I've never had a F2P game go huge with millions of players. The point is I believe the updates they've made are all in the interest of improving the game. I don't think they paced themselves well, or did everything perfectly, but they've owned up to a lot of those mistakes.

 

This isn't a DE apology post, but I feel there needs to be a viewpoint presented to understand why DE has been doing what they've been doing. The priorities of the forum are quite often not the priorities of a game that, while still in a form of beta, needs to make money on a consistent basis. It's not that ideas like Cells won't work, they're just gradual things, like "stealth" that will take quite a while to implement into a system, into a game, that is already being played by a lot of people.

 

I can tell Scott is speaking honestly, e.g. when he was talking about the Derelict key system. I think it's a good design, but it's presented poorly. It required we just sort of figure it out, and the initial reaction, which I can't believe some people still believe, is that it is a grind within a grind within a grind. There is no pay wall here, there is no grind wall. If you examine the system, it's actually a pretty consistent series of steps to get Nekros. DE's mistake was hiding a new area at all, so people who are following the game will feel slighted because they can't get to it right away (let's face it too, high level players tend to be quite elitist about having everything instantly because apparently big guns should = instant everything).

 

So yes, this is a post in defense of DE, but don't think I'm just a dumb DE defense squad or something. They've made quite a few blunders in updating this game, but they all seem genuine. I understand where they're coming from, and their only real big error is not communicating their situation to the players. Every company and developer has come from a world where talking to players is not common. DE is doing it better than most, but they aren't doing it the best. Comparisons will be made to Path of Exile devs, but they're really at the top of how communication works, and I can't really count the 1-2 man indie dev teams out there either, since that's just more a guy posting on a forum without investors or a legal team.

 

I think Mutagen Mass should probably be in another system, but I also don't have problems with getting Nav coordinates from everything I play, so getting to the Derelict is not hard for me or my ghost clan. Note that I have only played a few hours this entire week, but when you've played since December 2012, new games can draw attention pretty easily. I still love Warframe, I know it's got some issues, but I think DE is doing a damn good job trying to make it happen in a few months. If you could know how long I've been on my project and how many things have changed or systems went in and out, you might understand a bit of the huge task DE has, and what it means to have about 3 voices going out while 10,000 loud voices are shouting back.

[ZeroPhobic]

As well spoken, and often correct as Ced is, I fear that at this point not only are his words falling on deaf ears, but his words are willfully ignored.

I feel like I'm missing something here, but thats okay. As long as DE is reading the other hundred posts ranting about the same thing, we should be covered.

 

I do know how he feels though, every suggestion made on the board or directly to the devs by me has gone unanswered, I think we all feel a bit ignored as time passes here.