[DISC] Warframe PRO upgrade

[Rusalki]

Disclaimer: I expect this topic to be discussed civilly and with respect. I understand if you might feel strongly about this issue, and I respect your opinion, but if you cannot back it up with evidence and rationale I'd appreciate it if you didn't participate in the discussion.

There are a few things I'd like to ask the testing community.

-What do you play?

-What's your stance on PRO? What can/can't you accept?

Please assume that after each question there's an additional "...and why" - it helps to know what makes each individual tick.

I play: Level 30 solo Volt, non-PRO

My stance: I don't care that someone can pay money and be more powerful than me in-game. That totally supports the developers, and I'm all for that. I DO care that the game advertized a fourth ability for each Warframe, and that I cannot access it without spending Platinum. This is the one thing that I feel cheated of, and that's access to content that seemed like it'd be accessible to everyone.

I understand that I have 50 free platinum to unlock what I want/like. However, I have to spend at least 84 hours of crafting, not counting farming and leveling, before I can merely compare the stock Warframe with a single blueprint Warframe. It's hard to get a grasp of just what you want to sink that 20 Plat into when it'll take you 12 days of crafting, and untold hours of farming and leveling. All that, just to get a proper understanding of each Warframe beyond what the tooltips tell you.

And even then, you'd be gambling that just because you like the first 3 abilities, the fourth will be just as great. Or that you can enjoy the game even if the fourth ability isn't to your taste. The player will never know because they don't have access to that information until it's too late.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, PRO is great for supporting the developers, but it leaves players out of a key part of the experience. It's not a problem of PRO players being more powerful since this is a coop game, but that of paying players having access to content that free players don't, content that's been advertised on the main page with the words "Free-to-Play" next to it. This aspect is clearly not as advertized.

[[DE]Steve]

We did make changes in Beta 2 to improve on this. We now give you enough Platinum to Pro a few things (as you mentioned). We've made it so the core Warframes and Weapons that are Platinum purchased can actually be built by free players willing to go on item quest and build it with their Foundry.

Soon we are going to be improving our sign-in 'Resupply' bonus which will include the chance for anyone to win a small amount of Platinum when you login. There will also be some Alert events that give out these kind of rewards. This would guarantee that fans that can't afford Platinum still get a chance to upgrade their stuff.

Thanks for your write up!

[NoirProxy]

A lot of people are being turned off by WARFRAME's Pay to Play end game. I know a lot of people I have tried to pursuade into playing it with me have declined because ultimately the game tries to cut you off at every turn in an attempt to suck some form of cash from you.

In a way I agree. It kind of reminds me of what Angry Birds has ended up being but a little harsher. The problem is that Free to Play never actually means that. Developers always have an angle because well, they need to get paid. What needs to be done is that DE have to try and rethink of they plan on charging players for that end game content. The first galaxy is already just one map spamming a large array of the same game types but with different levels of difficulty. So it is obvious to assume that the next galaxy, or whatever will just be another map but with another bunch of different difficulty spikes of the same game types we have played before.

As I have mentioned in a previous thread. The game is just one big demo unless you are willing to fork over some cash. I have also mentioned that DE have missed out the chance to gain a lot of cash from micro transactions instead of huge one off payments. Currently no body should really be buying the Master and Grand Master founder packs because the platinum you gain is way too much for the content that is available.

This doesn't mean that what WARFRAME is, is bad. Far from it because it gives people who love the idea of cooperative horde gameplay to jump in for free with friends and have a blast.

If what Steve says is true then I am a little bit more confident in the direction that WARFRAME is headed. The question is that how many of these alerts occur a day? I play a lot and I have only ever been able to play one alert and it was just the reassassination of Vor again.

Maybe give players 20 platinum for logging in a certain amount of time in the game. That way they can build up a certain amount over the year and it will allow players to have something to work towards.

Edited December 29, 2012 by NoirProxy

[Rusalki]

If that's the case, I wholeheartedly support the injection of Platinum into the player economy. Naturally, the larger the reward the better, but you guys still have to make money. What has me concerned is the use of the word "chance", and "small amount". What is the ideal amount of Platinum that players should accrue for free in a month?

[Prowler6784]

i like the idea of giving people a chance to win some plat but the question is how much? will it be enough for me to Pro my new sword? also what if you add a feature to refund a pro and get half the plat back? i have pro'd a few of my weapons now but now i'm 8 plat short of getting Pro on my heat sword. i really want to plat it but i cant fork out 25$ to buy a pre paid mastercard in my town and i'm sure i'm not the only gamer who cant always do something like that or cant ask there parents either. Thats just my idea even if you could get a bit back from a refund is better then not getting anything back and just selling the weapon for creds

[ap0k41yp5]

I think giving some plat is great, but it won't fix at all the problem of players being repelled when they see pro=plat or slot=plat. Because in their mind plat=money. Please DE, listen to us on this point, forcing people to pay is not gonna get you paid more. You will have some people buying plat at the realease, plus some hardcore fans like me that will continue supporting the game, but the game will very fast acquire a pay2play reputation and your playerbase will just keep lowering very fast. Instead, if people see that you can do anything without paying a dime, they will think "hey, it won't cost me anything, why wouldn't I give it a try ?". And if they like the game, they'll finish up spending some cash in it and telling their friends how great the game is, so we can keep a large community, maybe with people paying less on average (because it won't only be hardcore warframers), but with more people playing, so it's better for you because you'll get more money, and for us because 3 months after release we'll be more than 300 people playing at a given time.

tl;dr : Make everything payable with credits and you'll end up having a larger community and earning more money.

Edited December 29, 2012 by ap0k41yp5

[MetaMortred]

We did make changes in Beta 2 to improve on this. We now give you enough Platinum to Pro a few things (as you mentioned). We've made it so the core Warframes and Weapons that are Platinum purchased can actually be built by free players willing to go on item quest and build it with their Foundry.

Soon we are going to be improving our sign-in 'Resupply' bonus which will include the chance for anyone to win a small amount of Platinum when you login. There will also be some Alert events that give out these kind of rewards. This would guarantee that fans that can't afford Platinum still get a chance to upgrade their stuff.

Thanks for your write up!

Thats all I needed to hear, you guys are the best. Although I do purchase plats, I feel terrible about it, because I feel as if I am just poppoing up CheatEngine and boosting up my plats. I feel like cheating, and that takes away the challenge, hence I dont want to have a lot of plats available to me so that I can feel the need to actually explore and play.

[FaBricOF]

I love this system of Pro and non-pro weapons.

It's not only supports developers, it's interesting for me.

You guys thinks that if you use non-pro weapons\warframes - you are playing "big demo". I think that by using non-pro stuff and upgrading it is like training. After you lvl up all of it, you will choose is it worth to spend platinum to get even more power, or this weapons\warframe doesn't fit your playstyle, so you just leave it be.

If developers give players to get platinum (no matter how much) by free - then I don't see any problem at all.

To TheNexusCloud:

"Although I do purchase plats, I feel terrible about it, because I feel as if I am just poppoing up CheatEngine and boosting up my plats. I feel like cheating, and that takes away the challenge, hence I dont want to have a lot of plats available to me so that I can feel the need to actually explore and play."

I have 2440 shield and 340 hp on my 27 lvl ember, which I collect without wasting any platinum (spend it all on others warframes =_=). Can you get more on your "challenge taking" warframes? And I'm not using end game mods (only got to Earth, farming Trinity now)

[Prowler6784]

I think giving some plat is great, but it won't fix at all the problem of players being repelled when they see pro=plat or slot=plat. Because in their mind plat=money. Please DE, listen to us on this point, forcing people to pay is not gonna get you paid more. You will have some people buying plat at the realease, plus some hardcore fans like me that will continue supporting the game, but the game will very fast acquire a pay2play reputation and your playerbase will just keep lowering very fast. Instead, if people see that you can do anything without paying a dime, they will think "hey, it won't cost me anything, why wouldn't I give it a try ?". And if they like the game, they'll finish up spending some cash in it and telling their friends how great the game is, so we can keep a large community, maybe with people paying less on average (because it won't only be hardcore warframers), but with more people playing, so it's better for you because you'll get more money, and for us because 3 months after release we'll be more than 300 people playing at a given time.

tl;dr : Make everything payable with credits and you'll end up having a larger community and earning more money.

Like Planetside 2, huge free to play game with the choice to spend money to get a item but you can still earn with ingame money and the only real money items are camos and boosters. i can see warframe doing the same and the community would be booming!

[DeadlyShadow]

Like Planetside 2, huge free to play game with the choice to spend money to get a item but you can still earn with ingame money and the only real money items are camos and boosters. i can see warframe doing the same and the community would be booming!

Ghost Recon Online it's another example, I do agree with this, that way the "free to play" aspect can be more visible and bring more gamers!

[Ferriwind]

I love this system of Pro and non-pro weapons.

It's not only supports developers, it's interesting for me.

You guys thinks that if you use non-pro weapons\warframes - you are playing "big demo". I think that by using non-pro stuff and upgrading it is like training. After you lvl up all of it, you will choose is it worth to spend platinum to get even more power, or this weapons\warframe doesn't fit your playstyle, so you just leave it be.

If developers give players to get platinum (no matter how much) by free - then I don't see any problem at all.

To TheNexusCloud:

"Although I do purchase plats, I feel terrible about it, because I feel as if I am just poppoing up CheatEngine and boosting up my plats. I feel like cheating, and that takes away the challenge, hence I dont want to have a lot of plats available to me so that I can feel the need to actually explore and play."

I have 2440 shield and 340 hp on my 27 lvl ember, which I collect without wasting any platinum (spend it all on others warframes =_=). Can you get more on your "challenge taking" warframes? And I'm not using end game mods (only got to Earth, farming Trinity now)

You are using a pro version of ember. -.-

[MJ12]

I think that there is some merit in paying for some enhancements, but 15 levels of it is too much.

I wouldn't mind a "Pro" that was, say, "+10% shields/health and +25 energy max", which would mean you could pay some platinum for an edge if you want to but it doesn't lock away a significant portion of fun from the game.

Alternatively, maybe a "Pro" upgrade tree that exists unconnected to the rest of the Warframe's levelups of 4-5 levels which you can pay, say, 5 or 4 platinum each to go up.

Say, +50% Shield Regen -> +10% Power Efficiency -> +10 Loot Radar -> +10 Enemy Radar -> Mod Slot. Again, that's some extra power... but now not only is it cheaper to buy Pro Upgrades (5 platinum per upgrade sounds like an absolute steal... but if you want them all it's the same cost), you're also getting a lot less power out of the deal.

Which makes it way more palatable. It's also more 'convenience' than 'power' now because it gives you cool abilities that you'd normally have to use mod slots on (and an extra mod slot as the capstone) that do, in fact, give you ingame benefits but seem more like something "extra" rather than something "required".

That's the sweet spot for cash shop items which give an advantage over other people-something that's a slight but noticeable advantage.

Edited December 31, 2012 by MJ12

[Nothus]

A nice slow injection of platinum is a great way to take away my reservations about the whole pro thing! Even if it's tiny (say 5 or something) it still makes me feel free to use what I have as it won't permanently cripple me down the road.

Very glad to hear this :)

[Celia]

Ghost Recon Online it's another example, I do agree with this, that way the "free to play" aspect can be more visible and bring more gamers!

That is it. I didnt would buy a Warframe or a Weapon for 15 - 20 $. It`s still a Beta.

You need the Pro Tree to play this game sucessfully. There are 4 Slots for Mods and many Health / Shield Boosts. Without this you will have a hard life at the higher LvLs. But i didnt will pay for this. Why should i pay for something that i dindt can try before. How i should know, which warframe i should play. I dont can imagine that ppl will pay for 3 or 4 warframes to try them out.

Warframe is a nice game. But the Pro / Platinum is the wrong direction.

Make it as a Micropayment like TF2 for some funny extra Weapons or Clothing.

If at the Release the game will have this paymodell, players will looking for other games.

Hope you can read it, not my motherlanguage

[Vectos]

Well, I must say I'm a bit bised. I come from a game community where any form of power or player progression being limited to a monetary purchase is frowned upon. Most of us would simply disreguard Warframe as "Pay-to-play" simply because of the pro upgrade system. The powerful side arms currently only available through platinum purchase make Warframe come off as even more "pay-to-play". Reguardless, I continue to play because of it's stunning graphics and extremely fun co-op experience. The game itself has a huge potential for greatness if they just re-work the monetization system. And come on, who doesn't want to be a space ninja?

So, what am I trying to say here? Well, games with a model like this seem to be more taxing on the player than they need to be. These game models are also prone to failure. Their method of making money more or less circles around taking the golden carrot and putting it in a box. Now, you can only have that carrot if you pay for it. If you farm for it, you only get a bronze carrot. Even after your devotion to the game, you'll never get that golden carrot unless you pay the upgrade fee or be very devoted to game. Then you'll start thinking how much it will end up costing you if you convert all your bronse carrots into gold or how long it would take/lucky you would have to be to get the needed currency. That's just demoralizing and makes a person re-consider if the game is worth investing their time in. It also sows the seeds for a unfriendly community.

My suggestion? Don't sell power. Instead, sell art and convenience.

Selling aesthetic things like skins (or armor components like masks) offers a player the ability to further express themselves in-game. Appearance items that express halarity, awesomness, or unexpected simplisity are all very attractive offers to a player who wishes to give themselves a bit more identity. I'll give Warframe credit though, it's on the right track by selling color customization.

Seling convenience is a bit trickier. You can't sell features that would give one player a distinct advantage over another, but at the same time that feature has to be somthing desireable. Selling time (items that would require a large amount of crafting time or farming) is always an option. The rate of time your selling has to be resonable though. Selling weapons or other core elements to gameplay often makes a game developer have to perform a difficult ballancing act for the player's favor of the game. This ballancing act is nearly impossible to perform and is quite unnecessary. This is where listening to player feedback on features comes in handy. If it's a small change that reduces "reduntant" gameplay, charging a marginal fee usually doesn't do any harm. If it was added based on player feedback, players would be greateful that it got in and would be very willing to buy what they fanticized in-game.

Another often ignored factor which overwhelmingly determines a game's sucess is how the player responds to the game and the team behind it. Games that support modles that sell power which can not be obtained through playing it usually tick off players. It makes them feel as though your prying money from ther wallet rather than offering somthing they would be interested and likely to buy if they can easily afford it. Nobody likes a pickpocketer. Vice versa, a game that gives the player the whole package with no strings attached gains the overwhelming support of the person playing it. Whatever amount of fun tthat player gets out of the game makes them much more inclined to put money into a that game for it's side features, since they have deemed as "worth it".

tl;dr: Ditch the pro system which revolves around selling power the average player can't get. Instead, sell aesthetic things and convenience. Read the paragraph above if you want to see me get into the player psychology behind my suggestions.

Sorry for the rant, this type of thing really makes me want to speak my mind.

-Edit(s): ninja'd some errors-

Edited January 1, 2013 by Vectos