Warframe Uniqueness (Or Lack Thereof)

[MJ12]

Outside of the powers, Warframes feel very similar in gameplay. This is kind of tragic because they all look unique and should have their own unique traits

The Rhino should really have more armor/health/shields than your standard Warframe, even without any active powers (it really looks like the kind of massive beefy tank that would benefit from them), after all. Say, 150/150 base. Or 100 base shields but 200 base health.

The Excalibur, as a melee combat specialist, could get some bonuses to melee damage and attack speed. The Excalibur Prime, as a special founder design, could get, say, +25 shields/health (for 125/125), which would make it more powerful but not visibly so.

The "power" Warframes (Mag, Ember, Volt, Trinity?) should maybe have discounted power costs or regain some (5?) energy per kill, allowing them to stay in the game longer with their powers, thus making "a potent alternative to gunplay" actually true.

I dunno what the Loki or Ash, or the "stealth" Frames could get as unique benefits. Perhaps damage bonuses or automatic critical hits against enemies which aren't alerted or targeting others?

Edited December 30, 2012 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

I disagree.

The idea is that they should let us players build the frames the way we like.

More flexibility on how would be nice but in genera if you want your Rhino to be more tanky then you should put the appropriate mods to make him so.

Likewise there whould be mods to make a frame more caable of melee damage to create a kind of a swordmaster like you suggest.

also mods to make a frame replenish energy or lower energy cost so they can be more "power" focused.

i don't want less control over how my frame acts buy the devlopers funneling the frames into certain niches anymore than the powers make them.

I'm sure someone out there would like there to be certain weapons locked to or away frm certain frames as well.

I'm against that too.

The freedom currently in the game should be expanded on not taken away from.

[MJ12]

I disagree.

The idea is that they should let us players build the frames the way we like.

More flexibility on how would be nice but in genera if you want your Rhino to be more tanky then you should put the appropriate mods to make him so.

Likewise there whould be mods to make a frame more caable of melee damage to create a kind of a swordmaster like you suggest.

also mods to make a frame replenish energy or lower energy cost so they can be more "power" focused.

i don't want less control over how my frame acts buy the devlopers funneling the frames into certain niches anymore than the powers make them.

I'm sure someone out there would like there to be certain weapons locked to or away frm certain frames as well.

I'm against that too.

The freedom currently in the game should be expanded on not taken away from.

If this assertion was at all true then all Warframes should have identical powers. You should choose which ones you want. The fact is, biases on Warframes to do something better is not a bad idea. In fact, every successful game has had these biases. Especially because mods are completely random and you have no way of guaranteeing the ones you want. You could, in theory, get only +power range mods for your Rhino when you want to make a big heavy unit.

The point of the suggestion was to bias a frame towards a particular style of play, as the descriptions indicate, rather than this current state where any Warframe can do any basic combat task approximately equally well and the only reason to choose one or the other is looks and powers. This idea, that all Frames should be entirely identical outside of powers (which are used only a few times every match, on average), means there is little incentive to buy new Warframes.

New Warframes cost a lot of time and/or money. They are an excellent source of income for Digital Extremes, because if you want to keep having new Warframes you will probably invest in Warframe slots (platinum) and rush build (more platinum) or outright buy them (even more platinum). Thus, giving all Warframes immediately visible distinguishing characteristics, even when Unranked, is paramount. Because I should be able to see, from Rank 1, that a Rhino, a Mag, an Excalibur, and a Loki should all play visibly differently at the first level. So you know that you invested in a cool new suit of power-armor that is entirely different from the one you undoubtedly had just before.

In fact, I'd suggest that all Warframes start with their base power unlocked in addition.

Edited December 30, 2012 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

If this assertion was at all true then all Warframes should have identical powers. You should choose which ones you want. The fact is, biases on Warframes to do something better is not a bad idea. In fact, every successful game has had these biases. Especially because mods are completely random and you have no way of guaranteeing the ones you want. You could, in theory, get only +power range mods for your Rhino when you want to make a big heavy unit.

The point of the suggestion was to bias a frame towards a particular style of play, as the descriptions indicate, rather than this current state where any Warframe can do any basic combat task approximately equally well and the only reason to choose one or the other is looks and powers. This idea, that all Frames should be entirely identical outside of powers (which are used only a few times every match, on average), means there is little incentive to buy new Warframes.

New Warframes cost a lot of time and/or money. They are an excellent source of income for Digital Extremes, because if you want to keep having new Warframes you will probably invest in Warframe slots (platinum) and rush build (more platinum) or outright buy them (even more platinum). Thus, giving all Warframes immediately visible distinguishing characteristics, even when Unranked, is paramount. Because I should be able to see, from Rank 1, that a Rhino, a Mag, an Excalibur, and a Loki should all play visibly differently at the first level. So you know that you invested in a cool new suit of power-armor that is entirely different from the one you undoubtedly had just before.

In fact, I'd suggest that all Warframes start with their base power unlocked in addition.

My assertion does not go as far as all that.

I didnt suggest that the warframe should have NO hard line uniqueness.

What I am trying to get across is that they are unique enough already due to their powers and look.

Beyond that I would prefer to make my own choices on how they will play.

I am also open to giving each frame type a mod or two designed to play to their more obvious strengths but not something the player couldnt unequipe if they so choose.

Come to think of it I rather like that idea.

Could even be a special type of mod that you can only get buy purshasing that particular warframe.

Games give classes some biases but the line of where these biases start and stop is quite varied.

That said, I agree with you on some of the ideas regarding specific modifications like energy regen and increased melee strength but I'd prefer that be up to me to grant or tke away as I choose.

Now I would definitely speak against the randomness of mods and propoise some systems to have some real say over what I get.

This may come into play in the crafting system.

And yes, new warframes uniqueness should be more clear from the time you unlock them.

There base power, a removable specialized mod or two and a recomendation of weapon choice would be enough to do it in my oppinion.

The obvious need for people to continue to buy warframes is not disputed here.

I wont try to speak for other people but i can tell you this about my personal choice making.

I'm more likely to buy a new frame when I know I can base my choice on look and power choice without having to deal with being pigeon hold any more than that.

My big incentive to buy a new warframe is the look and the powers. I need no more.

Well a cool little bit of lore wouldnt hurt either. :)

Quite frankly other limits would be a hurdle for me.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Ronyn

[Zelex]

id have to agree with the OP have more dramatic diffrances between frames not only alows us to a more intrestig frames, but also encourages us to experiment with other ones. whats the point in getting a new one if youll be playing exactly the same, when gameplay starts getting stale you can swap frames similar to league of legends only in a third person shooter enviroment. while still maintaning extensive customization options to make the frames our own

[Ronyn]

id have to agree with the OP have more dramatic diffrances between frames not only alows us to a more intrestig frames, but also encourages us to experiment with other ones. whats the point in getting a new one if youll be playing exactly the same, when gameplay starts getting stale you can swap frames similar to league of legends only in a third person shooter enviroment. while still maintaning extensive customization options to make the frames our own

More dramatic differences would be awesome.

However more dramatic differences between frames doesnt have to mean these differences are hard locked in.

One does not equal the other.

And if given the choice for variety why would you choose to play exactly the same?

[Laserwolf7]

I currently only have the Volt warframe (bought the Rhino blueprint but was then sad, but maybe more excited, to realize I need to actually build different parts of it...), so I can't say for sure, but I would agree with the OP about this as well. I watched the dev diaries about the different warframes on this site and it seems like their "uniqueness" comes from their selection of powers. Ash is only "slealthy" because it has the invis power, Loki is only able to be tricky cause of switch teleport and decoy. I agree that the powers are what make each frame unique, but I've also played enough to know that you won't have enough energy to always use your powers...

This brings about an interesting scenario, since I assume the designers don't want to just throw energy orbs at us to the point of making energy trivial (otherwise they could just make energy regen between fights, or we could enter an out-of-combat meditative state or something to recharge, would fit in with the ninja theme). But on the other hand, like the OP was saying, without energy, all the warframes "basically" play the same. That isn't to say that players don't have a choice of mods and weapons to choose from, but it would be nice to have a few different gameplay options in addition to that "out of game" customization already available.

Going off of Zelex's post, the only way they could be more like LoL champions is if we were allowed to use our powers more often, since that would be what would define our warframe (Ash can stealth more often, Volt acts as more of a spellcaster warframe, etc). Although games like Borderlands have you pretty much doing the same thing no matter your character (shooting lots and lots of guns), but with a little bit of flavor (you only get one personal action skill in that game per character, as opposed to the four per warframe here) and I still had a ton of fun playing through those games with my friends.

[Zelex]

well theres also passives in lol and itemization to synergize with your skills. not sure how they could include itemization in to this at all though, but its a fun thought to entertain.

the way i see it, the game needs to really lock in who the frames are and really define it in how it plays. so each frame definitely feels different than another, but then compliment that with a more open customization options so you can tweak it to your playstyle.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Zelex

[Roawynn]

What about special skill tree for warframes ? With focus on spells for spellcaster and combat for the other (like rhino or excalibur).

[Sajt]

I think i have an idea. The Passive skill sistem i like. What if one of the skills that you get for your frame conveys a passive bonus that affects your game in a small margin?

For Example: Volts electric shield would actualy supercharge his own shields and create either an explosion of energy when the shield is drained, or maybe shocking enemies that hit him.

Excalibur could get a damage boost or more criticals with the cqc weapons.

Rhino could get a small health regen etc etc.

This way the frame doesnt become overpowered or fitted into a nich, but still it retains its uniqe features and tgives more incentive to buy specific powers.

This idea might not fit with your whole argument, but i think it would enhance the flavore of each frame.

[MJ12]

I think i have an idea. The Passive skill sistem i like. What if one of the skills that you get for your frame conveys a passive bonus that affects your game in a small margin?

For Example: Volts electric shield would actualy supercharge his own shields and create either an explosion of energy when the shield is drained, or maybe shocking enemies that hit him.

Excalibur could get a damage boost or more criticals with the cqc weapons.

Rhino could get a small health regen etc etc.

This way the frame doesnt become overpowered or fitted into a nich, but still it retains its uniqe features and tgives more incentive to buy specific powers.

This idea might not fit with your whole argument, but i think it would enhance the flavore of each frame.

The problem with the passive skill system is that it doesn't make Warframes "pop". That's the thing about selling a product, it needs to "pop". You need to be able to choose a new Warframe and immediately go "holy **** this is awesome". Warframes should immediately show why they're awesome and flashy. Which is why a Warframe should play differently from another one from the start. Imagine, hypothetically, if weapons followed the same behavior as Warframes. I.e. "every weapon was identical to every other weapon at low levels except for graphics". People would be complaining to no end about how badly the weapons differentiated themselves, right? Same thing. Just because they're characters instead of guns doesn't change the principles.

This is actually one of my biggest complaints about Borderlands. Until level 5, the characters play entirely identically. Even past that, their main differentiation is action skills.

Which is why I suggest two things:

1. All Warframes should have starting passive improvements to baseline performance to differentiate themselves from each other, showing new players what they're meant to do and what they are.

2. All Warframes should have at least their tier 1 skill (Slash Dash, Charge, Decoy, Shuriken, etc.) unlocked from the start. Instead of the first Tier 1 skill ability, they should have a unique skill that starts off their skill tree. For example, Rhino might get +Armor, Excalibur might get +Stamina or +Sprint Speed, so on and so forth.

2a. In fact, I'd suggest that all powers get unlocked from the start, and every Warframe gets four unique passives instead of the initial four unlocks, and power boosts. That'd make it even easier to differentiate Warframes from the start.

Edited December 30, 2012 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

The problem with the passive skill system is that it doesn't make Warframes "pop". That's the thing about selling a product, it needs to "pop". You need to be able to choose a new Warframe and immediately go "holy **** this is awesome". Warframes should immediately show why they're awesome and flashy. Which is why a Warframe should play differently from another one from the start. Imagine, hypothetically, if weapons followed the same behavior as Warframes. I.e. "every weapon was identical to every other weapon at low levels except for graphics". People would be complaining to no end about how badly the weapons differentiated themselves, right? Same thing. Just because they're characters instead of guns doesn't change the principles.

This is actually one of my biggest complaints about Borderlands. Until level 5, the characters play entirely identically. Even past that, their main differentiation is action skills.

Which is why I suggest two things:

1. All Warframes should have starting passive improvements to baseline performance to differentiate themselves from each other, showing new players what they're meant to do and what they are.

2. All Warframes should have at least their tier 1 skill (Slash Dash, Charge, Decoy, Shuriken, etc.) unlocked from the start. Instead of the first Tier 1 skill ability, they should have a unique skill that starts off their skill tree. For example, Rhino might get +Armor, Excalibur might get +Stamina or +Sprint Speed, so on and so forth.

2a. In fact, I'd suggest that all powers get unlocked from the start, and every Warframe gets four unique passives instead of the initial four unlocks, and power boosts. That'd make it even easier to differentiate Warframes from the start.

1:Agreed 100 percent. But these passives should be a special mod that can be removed if the player chooses.

Gives the initial uniqueness youre looking for but doesnt lock them into a style that you may not like.

Specifically give each warframe a special mod that is uniquely only gained by buying that particular frame.

This mod should also grow in level to match whichever frame it is equiped on.

2: Agreed 100 percent. On them having their starting move and one or some passives.

onec agin tied to a removable mod.

Additionally I'd like to go back to the ransomness of mod quisition. The fact that we can put in whichever mods we like is great but because we have no idea what we will find or when we will find it...it often leaves us players feeling more at the mercy of the system than being in a position to decide our fate. This needs to be adressed. I beleive it would create a lot of the same results we are talking about here.

Yes, to sell something you need to make it pop. But you also need to make it feel like as much as possible like it will enhance your overall experiance.

By creating the unique passive mods I speak of you open up some interesting combonations.

Some folks may love the excalibur frame and hate the rrhino frame but because of the rhinos unique mod..

you might see them but the rhino just to get that mod to put on their excaliber.

Now thats selling!

Moreover, if we ask the develoipers to lock in certain aspects to certain frames you have to consider that you or I may not like the things they lock in.

That is to say, in every medium where bias exists there are complaints about how its broken up. Its inevtible.

But by lessoning the lock in when possible it lessons this problem.

pretty much everybody agrees that the frames should have more pop and uniqueness.

All i'm saying is let us acheive this without building in to new problems and complaints that come along with new constraints.

[iotimoline]

I also strongly support the concept of greater intrinsic differentiation between warframes. If the only thing that differs between my current Volt and Rhino/Trinity/Ember/whatever is a skill or two that I'll only use occasionally, why am I going to invest my time and effort into grinding out the parts needed for them? It's basically the 'amorphous blob' problem that's prevalent in so many games - there is no strong (or none at all!) limits or advantages to different characters/mechs, so you can turn anything into anything. This consequently begs the question of 'well why have so many?' and certainly does little to encourage further growth and addition to the game. Battletech is perhaps the prime example here, if you know anything about Battletech.

By contrast you can look at Mass Effect where different character archetypes (soldier vs biotic, for example) play very differently - which, presumably, is what we want.

An array of passive variations would be a good start, such as Rhino having some health regen and/or a substantially buffed health bar, Volt having similar for energy instead, etc - there's already been ideas floated. These don't pop' but they're also your building blocks.

The active powers definately should be unlocked in part or in whole at the start, because these are what your warframe is being sold on. Nerf them down in effectiveness (but also make them easier to use more often) so they're appropriate for the low level and then have progressive upgrades that bring their effectiveness up over time.

This swings us into another point which applies to all equipment, not just warframes: Unique upgrade paths. Why does the Bronco have a + clip capacity upgrade? It is nothing more than a speedbump. Why does the upgrade path of the Snipetron look exactly like that of the Boar?

There aren't that many items in the game - why not differentiate everything a bit more by giving them their own unique upgrade paths? Warframes especially.

[Ronyn]

I don't understand why people keep saying things like "the only difference between my rhino and excaliber frame are the abilities"

With the variety of weapons and mods availible my rhino and excaliber play VERY differently.

Like whether I equip a shotgun or a sniper rfile greatly changes how I play a level.

Whether I increase my armor or me damage output greatly changes how I play a level.

I didnt need the game to force me to do it.

If someone is playing different warframes too similarly that isnt the games fault.

[MJ12]

I don't understand why people keep saying things like "the only difference between my rhino and excaliber frame are the abilities"

With the variety of weapons and mods availible my rhino and excaliber play VERY differently.

Like whether I equip a shotgun or a sniper rfile greatly changes how I play a level.

Whether I increase my armor or me damage output greatly changes how I play a level.

I didnt need the game to force me to do it.

If someone is playing different warframes too similarly that isnt the games fault.

Your argument boils down to "It's not because of bad design, it's because you suck." This is a terrible argument. Look if you are this creative genius who can get entirely different playstyles from identical blank slates with identical modifications and identical statistics then bully for you. This does not in any way have any meaning because you could mount the same mods on your other Warframe and get identical gameplay most of the time.

With Excalibur and Rhino it's even worse because their four powers almost fill identical roles.

Power 1 is a mobility-boosting melee attack.

Power 2 is a damage reduction. Excalibur does it by stunning enemies, Rhino by increasing damage reduction but they both serve to survive high-threat environments longer.

Power 3 is the only major difference.

And for both Power 4 is an area crowd control ability.

Even if they were entirely different, you'd have identical gameplay for all but a short time period. Seriously two frames, with identical levels, mods, and weapons loadouts should not play identically for 90% of the time or else all a warframe is good for is a different cosmetic appearance. I'm already regretting purchasing Rhino. Frankly the Warframes are described as entirely different archetypes with entirely different focuses, why is it that you keep arguing that they should all be identical boring vanilla blank slates just because you have mods?

Modifications allow for further customization which is good, and adds Diablo-style loot hunting, which enhances replayability. It should not be used as a crutch for everything else being too similar. Diablo II improved on Diablo I... By giving classes extreme amounts of differentiation. Different classes playing differently is a very good thing.

It means if you unlock a new Warframe you have an entirely new game to have fun with. And with the suggestions I'm making it's not like you can't make a tanky Excalibur or Loki or a power-based Rhino. Stop refusing to accept ideas because they are different and seriously ask yourself what increased frame differentiation would actually harm. I've pondered it a while and my answer is "nothing at all". It would add a lot of longevity at minimal cost.

[Ronyn]

Your argument boils down to "It's not because of bad design, it's because you suck." This is a terrible argument. Look if you are this creative genius who can get entirely different playstyles from identical blank slates with identical modifications and identical statistics then bully for you. This does not in any way have any meaning because you could mount the same mods on your other Warframe and get identical gameplay most of the time.

With Excalibur and Rhino it's even worse because their four powers almost fill identical roles.

Power 1 is a mobility-boosting melee attack.

Power 2 is a damage reduction. Excalibur does it by stunning enemies, Rhino by increasing damage reduction but they both serve to survive high-threat environments longer.

Power 3 is the only major difference.

And for both Power 4 is an area crowd control ability.

Even if they were entirely different, you'd have identical gameplay for all but a short time period. Seriously two frames, with identical levels, mods, and weapons loadouts should not play identically for 90% of the time or else all a warframe is good for is a different cosmetic appearance. I'm already regretting purchasing Rhino. Frankly the Warframes are described as entirely different archetypes with entirely different focuses, why is it that you keep arguing that they should all be identical boring vanilla blank slates just because you have mods?

Modifications allow for further customization which is good, and adds Diablo-style loot hunting, which enhances replayability. It should not be used as a crutch for everything else being too similar. Diablo II improved on Diablo I... By giving classes extreme amounts of differentiation. Different classes playing differently is a very good thing.

It means if you unlock a new Warframe you have an entirely new game to have fun with. And with the suggestions I'm making it's not like you can't make a tanky Excalibur or Loki or a power-based Rhino. Stop refusing to accept ideas because they are different and seriously ask yourself what increased frame differentiation would actually harm. I've pondered it a while and my answer is "nothing at all". It would add a lot of longevity at minimal cost.

LOL.

Lets break this down to simple terms.

1: Its easy to vary the styles.

yes Rhino and Excalibur are very similar in ability sets.

thats actually why I like using that example.

<though its inherently easier for rhino to survive direct, prolonged engagements and easiler for excaliber to manuver around more open, vertically inclined rooms>

Anyway....

by outfitting Excaliber with a long range rifle, dual pistols, dual swords and melee damage mods it creates one style of play.

A balanced, overall combat style with a focus on bouncing between precision distance attacks and hit and run melee attacks.

by outfitting Rhino with a heavy machine gun, a shotgun pistol, the power guantlets and sheild mods it creates a different style of play.

A mid to close range powerhouse who can take pretty much everything you throw at it.

Doesnt take any sort of genious to do that.

All it takes is the desire to decide my own class set up.

2: Similiarity is possible.

you might bethinking "but you COULD give them exactly the same weapons and mods and they would play mostly the same"

yes. Indeed I COULD. and that the kicker. Its up to me.

Its not forced on me.

if someone wants to have the same weapon and mod loadout but change just the abilities then that is their choice.

Why are we trying to prevent them from doing that?

What is the negative there?

3: People are different.

I have a freind who built his excaliber and rhino completely differently.

He made his excaliber a sniper type who used super jump and slash dash primarily to stay away from enemies and only used his close range abilities as an UH OH button.

He made his rhino a melee damage focused character with improved sprint speed and ability distance increase mods cause he loves to be in the think of it but likes the risk of dying because he didnt go toward armor mods.

THIS is what he likes, which is different from what I like.

the system allows him to do it.

5: What did I really object to?

Now, I said I love the idea of the differentation and agreed almost completely with nearly EVERY idea you proposed.

The ONLY change I want made is that they hard tied to the frames preventing me from going in a different direction than what the developers may have set up.

6: what is the potential harm of differentiating the frames? nothing at all. I love the idea. Would only improve the game.

What is the potential harm with the differences be hard wired? well thats simple..

being forced down a certain path to get the most out of the frame whether I like the direction or not.

7: I am actually trying to incorporate what you want and what I want into one system.

I beleive we can both have the majority of what we are looking for.

I propose that we can have EXTREME differentation without hard locks.

that combining the two ideals will create a system thats all the better.

8: My version (the thing about the interchangable custom mod) suggests that when you buy a new warframe not only does it enhance your game buy giving you a new and different toy to play with.

it can also breath new life into old frames by taking the uniqgue custom mod and interchanging it.

9: The system could certainly be improved. tools for differentiation can definoitely be expanded on.

But its not so bad right now that if people are playing their frames ideintically that its unavoidable.

Not saying anybody sucks or that Im a genious. lol

I'm just saying that we need to use the tools availible to us while we ask for improvements.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

Oh

Sorry for the double post but I forgot to mention that there are warframe specific mods already in the game.

So it may look like there is no differences beyond abilities when really there are some after all.

This ties back to the problem with mod collection being completely random.

[MJ12]

Oh

Sorry for the double post but I forgot to mention that there are warframe specific mods already in the game.

So it may look like there is no differences beyond abilities when really there are some after all.

This ties back to the problem with mod collection being completely random.

Warframe specific mods which don't have any specific traits unique to the Warframe. What you're not understanding, and I seriously do not understand why, is that if you can "build a Warframe exactly as you want it", it reduces the uniqueness of the Warframe. And if you're at that point why not just say "okay Warframes are entirely cosmetic, you can just buy powers as you want". The game engine, due to a bug, shows that this is already easy as pie, since if your model bugs out slightly you can have an Excalibur using Ash's, or Volt's, or Mag's powers.

This idea, that you should have "interchangeable custom mods", is entirely missing the point. The point isn't to let you build things exactly the way you want to. The point is to provide restrictions that bias Warframes towards being built in a certain way specifically because, and here's the thing.

Restrictions are not a bad thing. Properly implemented, in fact, they're actually good. Let me ask you, would you say that we should make weapons entirely the same except for "interchangeable custom mods"? Because that's the exact conclusion your assertion, that everything should be entirely customizable, leads to. And in fact, we already see what it leads to. It leads to things being boring, a lack of reason to get different guns, and in a game where the level-up system already somewhat discourages replacing your equipment, this is absolutely terrible.

I mean, I've bought a half-dozen weapons, at least. And I haven't regretted any of the purchases. Okay, maybe the purchase of the Furis because it was bad, but still. This is because you can't level up or mod a Gorgon to become a Boar. Likewise, you shouldn't be able to make an Excalibur just as good as a equally-equipped Rhino at being a tank, or just as good as an equally-equipped Ember at massive amounts of ranged power damage.

The "compromise" of removable mods is you not getting it. This isn't about "customization". This is about creating constraints to the customization that encourage unique gameplay for Warframes. Making these traits "swappable mods" is entirely missing the point. Constraints are not always bad. Freedom is not always good. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you keep intentionally missing the point by going "Well, I could give them different mods and weapons loadouts". Yes, you could. Which is not dealing with the main problem, that you could switch those loadouts and your Rhino now plays like your Excalibur and your Excalibur now plays like your Rhino. Because unlike weapons, which have massive differences in behavior, warframes don't. And this is a bad thing that needs to be fixed because of how much Warframes cost to get.

Edited December 31, 2012 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

Warframe specific mods which don't have any specific traits unique to the Warframe. What you're not understanding, and I seriously do not understand why, is that if you can "build a Warframe exactly as you want it", it reduces the uniqueness of the Warframe. And if you're at that point why not just say "okay Warframes are entirely cosmetic, you can just buy powers as you want". The game engine, due to a bug, shows that this is already easy as pie, since if your model bugs out slightly you can have an Excalibur using Ash's, or Volt's, or Mag's powers.

This idea, that you should have "interchangeable custom mods", is entirely missing the point. The point isn't to let you build things exactly the way you want to. The point is to provide restrictions that bias Warframes towards being built in a certain way specifically because, and here's the thing.

Restrictions are not a bad thing. Properly implemented, in fact, they're actually good. Let me ask you, would you say that we should make weapons entirely the same except for "interchangeable custom mods"? Because that's the exact conclusion your assertion, that everything should be entirely customizable, leads to. And in fact, we already see what it leads to. It leads to things being boring, a lack of reason to get different guns, and in a game where the level-up system already somewhat discourages replacing your equipment, this is absolutely terrible.

I mean, I've bought a half-dozen weapons, at least. And I haven't regretted any of the purchases. Okay, maybe the purchase of the Furis because it was bad, but still. This is because you can't level up or mod a Gorgon to become a Boar. Likewise, you shouldn't be able to make an Excalibur just as good as a equally-equipped Rhino at being a tank, or just as good as an equally-equipped Ember at massive amounts of ranged power damage.

The "compromise" of removable mods is you not getting it. This isn't about "customization". This is about creating constraints to the customization that encourage unique gameplay for Warframes. Making these traits "swappable mods" is entirely missing the point. Constraints are not always bad. Freedom is not always good. Why is this so hard to understand?

Because you keep intentionally missing the point by going "Well, I could give them different mods and weapons loadouts". Yes, you could. Which is not dealing with the main problem, that you could switch those loadouts and your Rhino now plays like your Excalibur and your Excalibur now plays like your Rhino. Because unlike weapons, which have massive differences in behavior, warframes don't. And this is a bad thing that needs to be fixed because of how much Warframes cost to get.

Yes, creating more constraints would increase the uniqueness but it also lessons customization.

This is where our views differ.

i didnt miss it. I am not confused.

I disagree.

See I'm not missing your point i am just making one of my own.

Its similar in many ways but differs at a single crucial juncture.

I feel the warframes are, for the most part, unique enough overall. (with a few more interesting mod choices theyd be just right for me)

I dont want to loose this level of open custimization to acheive a level of constrained uniqueness I dont personaly find necessary.

The abilities and the look are mostly enough intrinsic difference for my taste.

Abilities alone do greatly change the potential of how a frame plays.

Example: My rhino cant suddenly jump up to high points. Those quick high point jumps can really change my strategy.

IE-that leap froging sniper excalibur build I mentioned is literally possible with the rhino. period.

The rhino will never be that agile no matter what you do.

Both Rhino and Excaliber can be effective close range killers but only one can be that truly agile sniper due to the jump ability and only one can take the highets levels of punishment due to the iron skin ability. Similarity and divergence created from a single ability difference.

(and how the heck is the excaliber or rhino suposedly getting the same level of ranged power damage as the classes with abilities that actually hit at range? whats next an excalibur that can heal? ;P )

Due to the abilities alone they will never play quite like each other because it is impossible.

Pretty darn similarly yes but not exactly alike.

This uniqueness is awesome to me.

Now dont turn my statement of "this is where i like the line" to mean "i dont want any line at all"

just because i dont walk to block out their stats in some other way does not mean I want the abilities to also be picked like a salad bar.

just because you want more limits didnt make me act like you want everything to be entirely rigid.

I view the ability choice as an incredible and worthy compliment to however I want to build my highly cusomtizable shooter character.

I'm willing to and already have paid actual money for the look and ability changes alone.

So....Using the weapons as a comparison is interesting.

Weapons are very different from each other in some really important ways right?...

Is the boar (automatic shotgun) so different from the strun (shotgun) that they cant largely do the same job?

There behavior is different to some degree but they basically fill a certain general niche.

Different enough to matter though right?

THAT is how I view things like the rihno and excaliber.

Weapon roles like long range accuracy, close range domination, mid range supression and the hybrids in between are in fact recycled over and over again through various weapons. The exact behavior differs but the number of different roles are pretty small.

What makes it awesome to ME is that through a choice of powers (warframe), loadout (weapons), and spec (mods) I can create a class that is very much my own. Something unique to ME. A particular build that isnt quite like anyone elses.

Back to the begining now

Certainly I'm open to introductory stat set up (through removable items) to help the warframes stand out as unique initially considering thats too early for any additional customization to have happened. In fact I think it would be very helpful.

But i do not want to be constrained any more than what is already there.

Also, while warframe specific mods dont currently have "unique to them" stats on them.

If they do create slants toward certain specializations like run speed/melee damage or armor/sheilds then they do push the frames into certain niches. As I said, the differences could and should be expanded upon.

You asked what could be bad with your idea?

You suggested what was bad with mine.

Its actually interconnected.

To get more customization you gotta give up some uniqueness.

To get more uniqueness you gotta give up some csutomization.

Its a personal pereference thing really.

One that we could argue over what would work better as a sales pitch to the masses but neither one of us can reallky know for certain.lol

Edited December 31, 2012 by Ronyn

[MJ12]

Yes, creating more constraints would increase the uniqueness but it also lessons customization.

This is where our views differ.

i didnt miss it. I am not confused.

I disagree.

See I'm not missing your point i am just making one of my own.

Its similar in many ways but differs at a single crucial juncture.

I feel the warframes are, for the most part, unique enough overall. (with a few more interesting mod choices theyd be just right for me)

I dont want to loose this level of open custimization to acheive a level of constrained uniqueness I dont personaly find necessary.

You're not making a point of your own while failing to miss my point, though. You're missing the point by bringing up how you can put different mods into the unit. You're talking about how "slottable unique mods" is a "compromise" instead of actually ignoring the issue. You are objectively wrong about how Warframes are already differentiated "enough". On average you'll use the powers maybe ten times in a level. That's once per minute, a few seconds each time. So 90% of the time Warframes play exactly the same with zero differentiation.

The abilities and the look are mostly enough intrinsic difference for my taste.

Abilities alone do greatly change the potential of how a frame plays.

Example: My rhino cant suddenly jump up to high points. Those quick high point jumps can really change my strategy.

IE-that leap froging sniper excalibur build I mentioned is literally possible with the rhino. period.

The rhino will never be that agile no matter what you do.

So you're talking about a largely useless ability that the Excalibur has that... differentiates it? You're serious? It's only "useful" as a shortcut, and even then most of the time both Corpus and Grineer are generally ranged attackers. So really it's only particularly useful against Infested. Such an absolutely niche situation does not in fact make the Excalibur "unique". In fact, that just proves my point. You are reaching so desperately, so hard, that you need to create an absolute niche scenario to show how unique the Warframes are.

Both Rhino and Excaliber can be effective close range killers but only one can be that truly agile sniper due to the jump ability and only one can take the highets levels of punishment due to the iron skin ability. Similarity and divergence created from a single ability difference.

(and how the heck is the excaliber or rhino suposedly getting the same level of ranged power damage as the classes with abilities that actually hit at range?)

So what are Shield and armor mods? Canned chicken? Because those things are far more important to durability than Iron Skin is. And yes, you're right, abilities that hit at range are a thing. Except like I said, abilities are not often used. And even then, both charge and slash dash are powerful mid-range attacks when fully upgraded. Most of the time you won't be sniping because the game is built around vicious, high-adrenaline, close range encounters. So yes, you're right. Warframes can be unique. In very, very specific, fairly rare situations the game is actually designed to minimize.

Due to the abilities alone they will never play quite like each other because it is impossible.

Pretty darn similarly yes but not exactly alike.

This uniqueness is awesome to me.

Now dont turn my statement of "this is where i like the line" to mean "i dont want any line at all"

just because i dont walk to block out their stats in some other way does not mean I want the abilities to also be picked like a salad bar.

just because you want more limits didnt make me act like you want everything to be entirely rigid.

You just said you think this current setup is awesome. This current setup is basically "Warframes are identical 90+% of the time to each other." So in conclusion...

I view the ability choice as an incredible and worthy compliment to however I want to build my highly cusomtizable shooter character.

I'm willing to and already have paid actual money for the look and ability changes alone.

Yes, if you think of Warframes as entirely cosmetic trivialities instead of entirely different character classes, the current system is fine. Except what we're being sold is a game with multiple character classes, and what we're getting is a game with the same character class eight times in different skins.

So....Using the weapons as a comparison is interesting.

Weapons are very different from each other in some really important ways right?...

Is the boar (automatic shotgun) so different from the strun (shotgun) that they cant largely do the same job?

There behavior is different to some degree but they basically fill a certain general niche.

Different enough to matter though right?

THAT is how I view things like the rihno and excaliber.

The Strun and Boar are an amusing comparison because they are quite different. The Strun is a more accurate, high-power weapon that is best at medium range against heavier foes like Grineer. The Boar is a close-range, high-DPS weapon (it has 300 DPS base, which is only exceeded by a full-fire-rate Gorgon) that is excellent against Infestation or lighter Corpus units. Meanwhile the Excalibur and Rhino... don't manage that level of differentiation.

Weapon roles like long range accuracy, close range domination, mid range supression and the hybrids in between are in fact recycled over and over again through various weapons. The exact behavior differs but the number of different roles are pretty small.

What makes it awesome to ME is that through a choice of powers (warframe), loadout (weapons), and spec (mods) I can create a class that is very much my own. Something unique to ME. A particular build that isnt quite like anyone elses.

To deal with the question of weapons, yes, the number of niches is fairly small. And the number of weapons is fairly small. You have the Snipetron for long-range sniping, the Latron semi-auto rifle which is also a long-range gun, the balanced Braton and Burstron, the Gorgon LMG which is weak against spaced-out light targets but murders everything else like no one else's business, and then you have the Strun for a medium-range scattershot weapon and the Boar, which is a close-in murder machine. For sidearms, you have the Lex, which is a hand cannon, the Bolton, which is a medium-long range semi-auto, the Sicarus burst-fire for medium range engagements, the Furis autopistol for close range, the Bronco for even closer range, and the Lato, which is kind of just bad. But cheap! For melee, you have the balanced longsword, the heavy but reliant-on-charging Furax gauntlets, the splash-damage dual swords, and the staff, which should probably have longer reach or other buffs because it is currently also bad. Presumably the daggers are fast melee weapons. The weapons are all fairly individualized, this isn't Modern Warfare 3 with twenty different assault rifles that have largely similar stats. In fact, there are a few niches which aren't filled (splash damage weapons, for one.)

And what would more unique Warframes with their own individual stats do to that? Absolutely nothing. Your Loki isn't gonna be like other people's Lokis. And who knows? If the Loki regens power per kill, maybe you can turn it into an awesome tank by spamming invisibility to get breathers to regenerate shields. It just won't tank like the Rhino, which is a good thing. The idea here is to allow things to be naturally biased towards doing what they should do best, so they're more like different character classes than different character skins.

And because of how players will tinker and experiment this means you'll have entirely different concepts of how to make use of a Warframe come up.

Back to the begining now

Certainly I'm open to introductory stat set up (through removable items) to help the warframes stand out as unique initially considering thats too early for any additional customization to have happened. In fact I think it would be very helpful.

But i do not want to be constrained any more than what is already there.

Also, while warframe specific mods dont currently have "unique to them" stats on them.

If they do create slants toward certain specializations like run speed/melee damage or armor/sheilds then they do push the frames into certain niches. As I said, the differences could and should be expanded upon.

The problem is that your "freedom of customization" is actually the biggest barrier to customization. Some of the most entertaining things in a game with heavy customization, like, say, Battletech, are where you take the design constraints and work within them to make a unit do a role you didn't think it could do.

Like making a heavy unit into a scout. So I want to make an agile, fast, Rhino under my proposed system. Because I already get a bunch of survivability from my base warframe stats, I thus just pick a bunch of +Sprint Speed and +Stamina and +Jump Height (or whatever) mods. Bam. I am now a fast but relatively fragile Rhino. And this is entertaining because I'm doing this despite what the Rhino is focused in.

Innate focuses and specializations can do two things. They can augment strengths... or shore up weaknesses. In both ways, they create more, not fewer, customization options, because instead of having one character class which you can mold, you now have eight.

The idea of Warframe-specific mods to bias them in certain directions creates the problem of any differences being entirely due to random drops. Which is again, something you don't want. You don't want character classes to seem same-y for the starting several hours of gameplay. You want them to be different from the start. Possibly extremely different. You can always use mods/etc. to actually converge characters later, but the starting few hours are what's going to build your impression of the Warframe you just bought and right now that impression isn't actually very good.

You asked what could be bad with your idea?

You suggested what was bad with mine.

Its actually interconnected.

To get more customization you gotta give up some uniqueness.

To get more uniqueness you gotta give up some csutomization.

It actually isn't. If you get more uniqueness, you get more customization options up to a certain point. Having eight different characters instead of one and some tiny differences will allow for eight times the customization. My idea would lead to an increased amount of customization potential,

Its a personal pereference thing really.

One that we could argue over what would work better as a sales pitch to the masses but neither one of us can reallky know for certain.lol

Funnily enough it's actually pretty clear from successful games that uniqueness is much better than customization. Look at Mass Effect 1. Now look at Mass Effect 2. Funnily enough Mass Effect 2 had basically zero character customization.

It had much better gameplay and a whole boatload of people liked it better as a game, disregarding the characters.

Look at Total Annihilation versus Starcraft. TA's factions had tons of units, so you could have your own "custom" strategies. Yet few people remember it and everyone remembers Starcraft, which is a game with a handful of relatively fixed strategies, such that a new one becomes some kind of incredible news.

Customization is a bullet point on a feature list. Tons of different characters or equipment items which play differently are a major selling point that gets you fans.

[Ferriwind]

Yes, the energy system will have to be rework in order to best see the unique of each warframe. Otherwise, 85% of the time, everyone is doing the same thing - shooting and ripping enemies to pieces.

[Ronyn]

Our posts are getting too big to quote. lol

So I'l just respond here in order of your statements the best I can.

To talk about the relevence of powers there are three things I have to say that you must look at together as a complete statement.

1: I disagree about the impact that power usage has on the gameplay.

how often I use my powers is not the only thing at play.

the abilities may only pop out occasionally but its the concept that I play to their strengths that makes important.

Example a: If I know I have an ability that can easily allow me stay away from enemies when they get to swarm me then I can comfortably create a build that plays to that strength in one of many ways.

Example b: If I know I have an ability that allows me to survive in close quarters for a prolonged time I build to that strength in one of many ways.

2: Its worth noting that depending on how youre playing and which abilities you rely on they come up more or less often.

that brings us back to why i agreed with you about the idea of an energy regeneration stat.

3: I did say I want more relevant, important, and different mods to round out the differences.

Energy regen, Life steal, etc...

I just dont want to be locked into them.

Moving on

As for how useless excalibers jump is to differentiate it from the rhino.

<Note: jump is very lackluster early on but can change things greatly once leveled up.

This is one of those aspects of progression that needs to be rewairked>

It only looks like reaching when you try to take too much out of it.

keep in mind I compared excaliber and rhino to two different kinds of shotgun. lol

just like the two shotguns they are largely the same but have certain niche situations that make them different.

The differences between the strun and the boar sound pretty similar to the differences between the excaliber and the rhino.

Rate of fire and effective range differences are pretty similar to the rhinos somewhat more sturdy power set and the excaliburs somewhat more evasive power set.

Following through on that idea....

Its very important to keep in mind that a lot of the stuff in game needs serious number tweaking.

Sheild and armor mods improve survivability potentially too much right now.

by end game we can spec to have so much armor we can practically stand in the middle of the room and not die. lol

we can be absolutely certain that this game breaking stat issue isnt on purpose.

Its this kind of unbalanced stat that really messes up the intended reliance on well timed abilities for these crunch momments.

but thats the nature of betas....

As for the games aleged bend on close range encounters....Ive actually been pretty successful at controling the range of combat to fit the weapon and strategy i'm using quite a bit.

Maybe our experiance has been different or we define close quarters differently. I dont know.

Either way what range I chose to take on the enemies has a big baring on the fights.

The abilities I can fall back or use strategically make a dig dent in those outcomes.

I do think the current set up (look and abilities are frame specific but I'm free to otherwise customize as I chose) is awesome.

Now lets not take that one statement out of context.

Ive also said it needs to expland, it needs work. But i really like it.

Its an exageration to say these are the same character class with different skins.

Lets see how sneaky and capable of misdirection your rhino is compared to the ashe.

How effective your excaliber is at KEEPING its distance while causing the same damage as an ember.

or perhaps youd like to heal without using the trinity...lol

Some pretty significant differences pop up there.

In group combat turning invisible is surviving but its not tanking. tanking requires that you take preasure off your allies or absorb damage that could be aimed at them. Loosing enemy line of sight leaving them free to attack your allies is not remotely similar to tanking.

Crowd control (because it stop enemies from harming allies while stuned) or misdirection (enemies too confused to hit anybody) might be considered an alternative with a simular effect to tanking.

The part about constraints creating more customization,

because you with shored up weaknesses you can just put mods in elsewhere....

supposedly creating a system that allows a person to turn the big heavy into a fast scout..

Here is the deal-

If thats really doable then the frames arent really specialized anyway.

Just puts things back into an open customization that I like.

If the heavys version of a scout isnt really as effectrive in that role as a lights version...

then its just a second rate version of something else.

The argument that constraint leads to more custmization is false.

Unique peices that can be combined in less constrained ways creates more customization.

That is a mathematical fact.

Example: Take a deck of cards.

Say you can make combo of three cards but all three have to match in color.

Now say you can make a combo of three cards but they can be of any color.

Which one creates more potential combonation?

The one without the color contraint of course.

Now I said I like the idea of mods and frame specific mods deciding your stats.

I also said dont want mods to be just random drops.

Instead of somehow turning that into competing ideas that cancel each other out how about you put those two ideas together.

Let mods play a big part in deciding my specialization and let me have a real choice in choosing what mods I get. synergy!

No matter what model they go with I want a better system than simply having to find mods on pure luck.

I want to get frames started in a unique and obvious expected niche at level one but I want to be able to go right and replace that mod if I so choose.

Im not saying anything about keeping them unique for the first several HOURS of play then letting them do whatever.

I'm saying set them up ready to be unique, to POP, to be different....but dont lock me into it.

You say the history of games has given you a clear answer about uniqueness verses customization.

I'm not buying that so easily.

The exact line of where customization and uniqueness converge is quite varied among the successful franchises.

moreover in each game example you mentioned there are more things that decided its success than simply its level of uniqueness or customization.

BTW-you also left out the part where Mass effects developers announced they were bringing back a lot more customization for number 3 largely cause fan asked for it. ;)

One thing ive been avoding getting into is that this is a shooter.

What I mean to say is that the core combat model is largely about the effective use of the weapon in your hands.

So the most efficient way to create uniqeness between frames is tie certain weapons to certain frames.

That would automatically increase the seperation between gameplay styles buy a large amount.

I abosluetely hate the idea that they would do that though.

Im very tired of having to chose between the abilities I like and the weapon I like because some well intentioned developers put together a package that didnt happen to coincide with my tatstes.

Other than that though we will continue to have classes that are able to play very similarly to each other.

cause a snipers gonna snipe, so hes gonna stay away.

A shotgunners gonna get reletively close, so hes gonna rush in to some degree.

unique abilities and particular stats or not, thats how it boils down.

Only other option Ive seen have as big an effect on gameplay variety is ME3s system.

More weapons you carry the less often you can use abilities.

The less weapons you carry the more often you can use abilities.

heh. food for thought.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Ronyn

[Atrax]

Costumization and uniqueness is interconnected, you can't go around it, Less uniqueness is less options to costumize. More costumized your char is, the more unique it is. Pretty simple actualy.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Atrax

[MJ12]

I do think the current set up (look and abilities are frame specific but I'm free to otherwise customize as I chose) is awesome.

Now lets not take that one statement out of context.

Ive also said it needs to expland, it needs work. But i really like it.

Its an exageration to say these are the same character class with different skins.

Lets see how sneaky and capable of misdirection your rhino is compared to the ashe.

How effective your excaliber is at KEEPING its distance while causing the same damage as an ember.

or perhaps youd like to heal without using the trinity...lol

Some pretty significant differences pop up there.

They're almost all equally as effective at doing the same things. The Trinity is the exception that proves the rule because its powers do something literally nothing else in the game allows you to do. The Rhino is exactly as effective at stealth as the Ash (mostly because stealth in this game is exceedingly limited). The Excalibur can cause the same damage as an Ember keeping its distance because, frankly, if you have a high-level Braton, you're going to deal a hell of a lot more DPS with your rifle than with your powers.

In group combat turning invisible is surviving but its not tanking. tanking requires that you take preasure off your allies or absorb damage that could be aimed at them. Loosing enemy line of sight leaving them free to attack your allies is not remotely similar to tanking.

Crowd control (because it stop enemies from harming allies while stuned) or misdirection (enemies too confused to hit anybody) might be considered an alternative with a simular effect to tanking.

So you use decoy instead. In fact you could have decoy upgrades for multiple decoys or whatever. The point is that if Warframes do similar things they should do it entirely differently. Okay, Trinity heals. If, say, Rhino had a heal, it should involve being right in the thick of it kicking plenty of butt to make health orbs pop out. That's the point. Even when things do the same thing they should do different thigns.

The part about constraints creating more customization,

because you with shored up weaknesses you can just put mods in elsewhere....

supposedly creating a system that allows a person to turn the big heavy into a fast scout..

Here is the deal-

If thats really doable then the frames arent really specialized anyway.

Just puts things back into an open customization that I like.

If the heavys version of a scout isnt really as effectrive in that role as a lights version...

then its just a second rate version of something else.

So you're saying, say, Battletech has no specialization between weight classes? Because it does, and you can do exactly that. You sacrifice speed for the ability to survive attention and defend yourself from the usual hunter-killers, but you're still a "fast" scout. And that's just the start of it.

The argument that constraint leads to more custmization is false.

Unique peices that can be combined in less constrained ways creates more customization.

That is a mathematical fact.

Example: Take a deck of cards.

Say you can make combo of three cards but all three have to match in color.

Now say you can make a combo of three cards but they can be of any color.

Which one creates more potential combonation?

The one without the color contraint of course.

Look, you can lecture me about mathematics all you want, but you might want to check your basic facts before you do. Unique pieces. Constraints in this system create more unique pieces. So instead of having 1 character you can customize, say, 50 ways, you now have 8 characters you can customize 25 ways each. Bingo. You just increased your customization potential by 300%. Again, the point here is that with the similarities between Frames right now because they don't have particularly differentiated stats and traits, you can easily increase customization potential by increasing variance between then.

Now I said I like the idea of mods and frame specific mods deciding your stats.

I also said dont want mods to be just random drops.

Instead of somehow turning that into competing ideas that cancel each other out how about you put those two ideas together.

Let mods play a big part in deciding my specialization and let me have a real choice in choosing what mods I get. synergy!

No matter what model they go with I want a better system than simply having to find mods on pure luck.

I want to get frames started in a unique and obvious expected niche at level one but I want to be able to go right and replace that mod if I so choose.

Im not saying anything about keeping them unique for the first several HOURS of play then letting them do whatever.

I'm saying set them up ready to be unique, to POP, to be different....but dont lock me into it.

Look, the "random drop" model for frames is the best one for prolonged gameplay because it means you have an incentive to run this Skinner Box again and again for phat lewts like +100% to shield, +50% armor warframe mods or whatever. It's almost certainly not going away. Thus, any uniqueness is

You say the history of games has given you a clear answer about uniqueness verses customization.

I'm not buying that so easily.

The exact line of where customization and uniqueness converge is quite varied among the successful franchises.

moreover in each game example you mentioned there are more things that decided its success than simply its level of uniqueness or customization.

BTW-you also left out the part where Mass effects developers announced they were bringing back a lot more customization for number 3 largely cause fan asked for it. ;)

I left it out because I figured you would be kind enough to bring it up and shoot your own argument in the foot. You know what this "lot more customization" in ME3 entailed? Even more unique class abilities and differentiation between those abilities. Unique grenade powers, unique melee attacks, so on and so forth. Characters became more customizable even as they got massively differentiated via additional uniqueness. Even weapons got even more and more unique. You can "not buy it" all you want, but there's fairly solid evidence that unique classes work and work very well.

Again this isn't some sort of binary spectrum. If you create more "character classes" via additional uniqueness in Warframes, you create more customization options for yourself. I understand you hate this idea that you might have to make compromises in terms of powers to get your own playstyle... But that's good game design. Players shouldn't always get exactly what they want, they should have to make choices between cool stuff.

One thing ive been avoding getting into is that this is a shooter.

What I mean to say is that the core combat model is largely about the effective use of the weapon in your hands.

So the most efficient way to create uniqeness between frames is tie certain weapons to certain frames.

That would automatically increase the seperation between gameplay styles buy a large amount.

I abosluetely hate the idea that they would do that though.

And because you hate this idea you're denigrating far more moderate ideas since you're apparently traumatized by Battlefield 2 or something. I don't know. This is the first time I've heard people angrily attacking the idea of making characters more unique.

Im very tired of having to chose between the abilities I like and the weapon I like because some well intentioned developers put together a package that didnt happen to coincide with my tatstes.

Other than that though we will continue to have classes that are able to play very similarly to each other.

cause a snipers gonna snipe, so hes gonna stay away.

A shotgunners gonna get reletively close, so hes gonna rush in to some degree.

unique abilities and particular stats or not, thats how it boils down.

Only other option Ive seen have as big an effect on gameplay variety is ME3s system.

More weapons you carry the less often you can use abilities.

The less weapons you carry the more often you can use abilities.

heh. food for thought.

Yes and remind me where the classes are "Shotgunner", "Sniper", etc? Let me summarize what the game implies the classes are according to the descriptions:

Jack of All Trades/Melee Combat Specialist: Excalibur

Power-Dependent Damage Output Specialist: Volt

Deception/Trickery: Loki

Enemy Manipulation: Mag

Crowd Control: Ember

Healing and Support: Trinity

Stealth Ninja: Ash

Tank (not in the RPG sense, in the real-life sense of a incredibly fast, high-firepower, immense durability monster): Rhino

Again, this is entirely independent of weapons. In fact, I'd say the only one which sounds like it might be dependent on a specific weapon would be Excalibur, with melee specialization.

Edited January 1, 2013 by MJ12

[MJ12]

Anyways, my proposal would be this:

1. Warframes start with all four powers unlocked from the start. Instead, they get four unique passives that take the position of four of the power upgrade nodes in the levelup screen. So, for example, Rhino's might be, say:

Passive 1: Hard as Nails-When your shields go down, you get a brief period of invulnerability, say, 2 or 3 seconds. This can only trigger once every 30 seconds or so.

Passive 2: Shield Supercharge-killing an enemy instantly recharges some shields. This can only trigger once every second.

Passive 3: Will to Survive-as your health is reduced, your armor rating increases.

Passive 4: Fast Recovery-You stagger for half the time and can't be knocked down.

These combine to make Rhino an extremely durable and hard to stop combatant that is basically impossible to stun, which encourages it to get into people's faces and draw attention, taking the heat off of other, more fragile, Warframes.

2. Warframes also have differing stats (starting health/shields/energy) and Weapons Affinities, which will be extremely minor boosts to weapons (say, +5% damage, +10% reload speed, whatever).

So in Rhino's case, its "favorite weapons" from the pack would be the Boar, Lex, and Furax. So it'd get a minor affinity with shotguns, heavy handguns like the Lex, and gauntlet-type weapons. It would get additional health (say, 200 starting) to synergize with its ability to survive more health damage.

I'm not sure how this is going to massively hurt your playstyle.