Warframe Uniqueness (Or Lack Thereof)

[DarkForsaken]

I just have to say after reading through this that I hope the devs have done some reading on MJ12's posts, because he has both some very good points and ideas as to how to modify the current warframes to make them much more like individual classes and not just a group of different skins, which is what they feel like, apart from Trinity.

[ApokalypsBZH]

The passives and starting stats ideas of MJ12 are really neat. Reminds me of Mass Effect 3 MP, where you can have 2 chars with the same skills but that play completely different because of their race/passives.

[Ronyn]

They're ........

Quick catch up

If you think I’m mad or angrily standing against new and unique aspects to the game you have misunderstood me completely.

Im not against your ideas I think they are great. i just want to use them without the hardlock.

if you misunderstan everything else I say please comprehend that.

My reference to not liking weapons locked to classes was not directed at your idea but a statement of my frustration with that system. The core mechanic of a game will always be the primary deciding factor in what can differentiate the classes within it.

To FORCE less sameness between the frames will require either weapon locking to frames, huge stat differences or the powers becoming more frequently used and/or having a longer lasting effect on the situation. I propose a combination between options 2 and 3, very much like you do, but without them having to be locked in. More on that later.

The ME 3 reference was from an interview about single player, which did increase in customization, before their multiplayer was talked about.

I actually have a great time with a lot of great games that use a relatively constrained class system.

I’ve never said those don’t work, they often work great. When a game is well made overall I appreciated it. Period.

But that is not to say I don’t often have different preferences than what I am presented with.

Moreover when presented with multiple games of equal quality, I will tend to go toward the game that has the class closest to what I’d like to play.

remember that more open customization systems have been known to be successful as well.

I've been trying not to mention the hyper successful shooter titles like COD. Black ops 2 is breaking sales records and has an very not constrained customization/loadout system.

Both versions have their successful titles.

And their respective success did not come entirely on what kind of customizations ystem they went with.

Yes decoy can be used to “tank” through distraction in an effective but different manner than direct resistance. That was kind of my point.

If two frames have the same ling range weapon the one with the long range ability will gain an edge in long range damage potential.

If this gap isn’t wide enough to notice I refer you back to my earlier statement about what I’d like done to fix that.

If two classes have the same stats then they will need some other aspect, like powers or hit box size, to maintain any true differentiation.

I’m not trying to get rid of random drops altogether just make them not the primary decision in my characters stats.

I’d prefer a system where I have access to build a certain amount of them but can go with what I find instead If I so choose.

Some random chance is good for longevity but being at the complete mercy of random drops can be detrimental to my enjoyment right now.

You also don’t like the stats being completely dependent on chance.

Now let us get to the end.

Constraints don’t add. Creation does.

Ok I’ll expand.

You’re confusing the FACT that creating new pieces adds to uniqueness.

With the FALSEHOOD that constraining said pieces creates uniqueness.

More accurately, you’re speaking as though one has to come with the other.

It does not.

Let me put it like this.

In the game league of legends each champion has 4 special abilities, one passive ability, and a set of base stats.

Right now they have like 80 or so different champions.

That is a lot of variety right?

Now imagine if you could trade these unique passive abilities and set of stats between champions.

You’d increase the variety of possible builds by a large number.

That’s right people!

Ashe with Volibears passive ability and tanky base stats!

What kind of craziness would that system create?

(Of course balance would be brought into question but that’s for another discussion.)

Now what If the only way to get this passive ability and base stats is to BUY both champions?

Yes, people who don’t like a certain champ but happen want it’s passive for another champ would have a reason to buy it.

Sales 101!

What do you gain?

More possible combinations by a huge number. That’s a fact.

What do you lose?

The ability to say “Only Volibear can have these base stats and passive ability”

Hence, the Volibear player may feel he lost his “uniqueness” but it’s actually given each player….

A much greater chance to be unique compared to any other player in the whole game.

That’s what I am after with my idea of "removable class specific mods".

Basically a special piece(s) of equipment each frame starts with that gives them unique stats boosts and passive abilities.

Note-this would require that some stuff actually be created. It’s the creation part that actually adds new pieces to the equation.

And I think many of your specific ideas would be perfect for these things!

But this special thing(s) can be removed if the player so chooses.

Even put in another frame if they so choose.

Note: ALL constraints aren’t removed in this idea.

I never asked for that.

I just put the line in a difference place than you do.

It’s cool if you don’t like my particular idea but the math on it is not debatable.

And it does not in any way resist the creation of new stuff.

I'm not trying to stop a new, unique aspect from being introduced into the system.

I'm all for it.

It’s the creation of new and unique stuff that will actually get us new and unique stuff.

You see true variance comes from additional unique pieces and then increases based on the freedom one has to combine them.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

Anyways, my proposal would be this:

1. Warframes start with all four powers unlocked from the start. Instead, they get four unique passives that take the position of four of the power upgrade nodes in the levelup screen. So, for example, Rhino's might be, say:

Passive 1: Hard as Nails-When your shields go down, you get a brief period of invulnerability, say, 2 or 3 seconds. This can only trigger once every 30 seconds or so.

Passive 2: Shield Supercharge-killing an enemy instantly recharges some shields. This can only trigger once every second.

Passive 3: Will to Survive-as your health is reduced, your armor rating increases.

Passive 4: Fast Recovery-You stagger for half the time and can't be knocked down.

These combine to make Rhino an extremely durable and hard to stop combatant that is basically impossible to stun, which encourages it to get into people's faces and draw attention, taking the heat off of other, more fragile, Warframes.

Great stuff!

I'd say that is a good way to round out the skillset of the rhino to make it a more complete hard case.

The big "change" my version would make to this is that these passives would be on a special item or items.

This special item or items can only be recieve from purchasing/building the rhino warframe.

Because it is an item or items it can be taken off and given to a different frame if the player wants to.

So all of the new functionality is maintained it, people still have to get the rhino to get access to this stuff, it is simply not hardlocked in.

That way if someone wants to play Rhino in a way that doesnt get a whole lot out of additional resistances they can.

If someone wants to play a different frame in a way that does gain a lot from these additional resistances they can.

Also starting people with all four powers unlocked might be a bit too much for a new player to keep track of.

having to learn what each one does and then use them at the right time in the middle of learning the basic controls and core gameplay mechanics is probably not ideal.

I'm more likely to go with one active power to start but all of the passives already given.

Passives are easier for a new player because they dont actually have to input the commands themselves.

This isnt a deal breaker for me or anything just the practical observations from being a teacher for so many years.

2. Warframes also have differing stats (starting health/shields/energy) and Weapons Affinities, which will be extremely minor boosts to weapons (say, +5% damage, +10% reload speed, whatever).

So in Rhino's case, its "favorite weapons" from the pack would be the Boar, Lex, and Furax. So it'd get a minor affinity with shotguns, heavy handguns like the Lex, and gauntlet-type weapons. It would get additional health (say, 200 starting) to synergize with its ability to survive more health damage.

This part I am not fond of.

Well the health boost is totally fine and fits the theme and function but its the weapon affinity part I am against.

I'd rather not even mess with this kind of thing.

Why not?

Well some people may feel a tanky class is right on with shotguns but not like the idea of using a heavy pistol.

Or that the struns accuracy is more to their liking than the boar.

Others will feel as though the Gorgon is the more obvious fit for a tanky character.

Some people might feel that the dual scara is more appropriate for a tanky class because it can hit multiple enemies, helping keep them caught up and away from their allies.

Not to mention what happens later on when new weaons are released in upcomming patches.

By setting weapon affinities up in packs like this we increase the chance that someone will not be happy with every part of the pack they are given.

And the weapons one uses will continue to have a major effect on their gameplay experiance.

Obviously a person can just use whatever weapon they want regardless but those small percentages can leave a naging feeling that we are missing out on a bonus we could be getting. The min/maxer crowd would really get caught up in stuff like that.

Moreover if and when Warframe gets PVP those 5 percent advantages can make the difference in close matches.

A lot of pvp players are reletively competative so this would push people toward sticking with whatever weapon has the bonuses even more.

While leaps and bounds above full on weapon to class locking it is still constrictive enough to cause more harm than good.

At any rate cool ideas.

Keep them flowing.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Ronyn