Rng Based Progress + No Drop Tables = No Longterm Players.

[notionphil]

The move on DE's part to encrypt drop tables thus preventing players from reverse-engineering the drop-tables for mods/bps/parts is a fair one. Data mining is a step on the road to hacking, and the complete information dump created can take the mystery/fun out of the game for both new and old players.

 

We can all agree that figuring out one's own path through a game is more fun than using a gameguide, IF the game gives us all of the means to effectively do so. However, (other than resource locations) Warframe provides literally ZERO information to the player about how to progress through the game. Nothing ever tells you where a particular Frame's parts, Weapon component, or Mod drop is located. In a game where getting drops is the primary source of progress, this is unacceptable.

 

Banning datamining without adding a Roadmap to drops in game is literally a ban on Warframe's only progress mechanic; drop farming.

 

In most PvE games with character advancement elements, such lack of transparency is tolerable, because in most games the character is always making DIRECT progess while grinding. Simply killing enemies increases your level/rank/whatever, which can usually be used to boost power in some gameplay specific way, even if you have difficulty finding/looting the item you're searching for.

 

In WF, the PRIMARY source of progress is attaining specific drops. If we have no road-map to attempt to attain said drops, playing the game simply ceases to have a point. We can't grind aimlessly, or rely on rumors when the grind itself has no reward as it does in other games. (which is a sepearate issue altogether). This ban turns "wow that is going to be hard" into "why bother, I have no clue what to do next".

 

I will say it plainly; if you think you're having veteran burnout now...wait until you see what happens when you literally remove the only mechanism for even INDIRECT progress in Warframe. Instead of reducing pathways to indirect progress, DE should be adding MORE pathways for DIRECT progress, mastery rewards, achievements etc.

 

Livestream vaugely noted a concept to put together an in-game roadmap to drops - but we have no idea if/when/what this will be. Many livestream plans take months to materialze, or were simply ideas and never see production. This is one of those situations where communicating with the players first would have gone a long way to engender support before taking drastic action.

 

What's the plan here?

Edited October 13, 2013 by notionphil

[DarkWaterBBF]

Especially since drops seem to change every few updates...I still have a few things I would like to get, but not knowing where, why bother...

[Transvistinator]

This ban turns "wow that is going to be hard" into "why bother, I have no clue what to do next Where to farm next".

 

This is me at the moment, I can take on any level have min maxed gear, And whats left is me collecting mods

 

This was fine with the tables, Not they've gone i have no clue where to go, Meaning i could waste my time farming or go play other games, Which is what im doing

 

Honestly, I just finished farming salvage for the ichors and after iv leveled and forma'd them to a point where their good, Il have nothing else to do in the game because quite frankly, I cant be bothered to waste time on the RNG when il be wasting time on the fact that i have no idea where to farm

 

From their standpoint, I get the encrypting the tables, For one it looks bad and such. BUT they NEED, Yes all caps NEED to have a full table. Not a " i collected X here ". We need the % chances or at least say it has a roughly 1/10 chance of dropping, Making us having to work out where stuff drops reinforces us as a community sure, But at the same time is &!$$es most of the veteran players who have been playing since at least open beta because we were allready burnt out farming stuff, Now were burnt out not being able to farm stuff because we cant be bothered to have to read inaccurate data off the wikia when we want a mod.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Transvistinator

[se05239]

This ban turns "wow that is going to be hard" into "why bother, I have no clue what to do next".

 

This is where I am at. I dunno where I can get what I need anymore, so I have stopped playing.

[Kaian-a-coel]

I can't understand why there is NO official drop tables to begin with. DE should have learnt by now that humans can't do basic statistics for sh*t, leading to a f*ckload of conspiracy theories deteriorating the relationship between DE and their customers.

 

Just release the damn things already, that would solve this problem, and furthermore the feedback on the ACTUAL loot chance rather than the PERCEIVED loot chance will be waaayyy more constructive, and probably more calm and less hot-blooded.

[Ned_Wiki]

DE could just make an official list of all the enemies in the game and the stuff that they can potentially drop. Then they could make a comprehensive list off all the mods with little location categories that can give you a direction on where to find it.

Either DE gives us a roadmap, list, or allows datamining again. How annoying. Whose idea was it to hide where things drop?

[Morgax]

DE could just make an official list of all the enemies in the game and the stuff that they can potentially drop. Then they could make a comprehensive list off all the mods with little location categories that can give you a direction on where to find it.

Either DE gives us a roadmap, list, or allows datamining again. How annoying. Whose idea was it to hide where things drop?

I can't remember, either Steve or Scott to prevent "hacking".

Edited October 13, 2013 by Morgax

[Stafer]

exactly this. 

 

I don't know how many corrupted heavy-gunners I need to kill in what tier range, to give myself the best chance at finding whirlwind.

 

or if I'm even hunting in the right place. :|

Edited October 13, 2013 by Stafer

[notionphil]

exactly this. 

 

I don't know how many corrupted heavy-gunners I need to kill in what tier range, to give myself the best chance at finding whirlwind.

 

or if I'm even hunting in the right place. :|

 

"in what tier range"

 

Please, for the love of anything that was ever good, in any videogame....this.

 

Tying mod drops to enemies works in other games because there are as many enemies as drops! Most enemies have 1 common drop and 1 rare, and thats it. Each enemy is found in a handful of specific places in game.

 

In WF, it's a clusterF. Every enemy is present on every mission, across every level of that faction. Are enemy drops tied to tiers? I've heard rumours but had no idea. Hunting drops for most people feels like, just go run a million levels of X faction, maybe you'll get it, or maybe you'll get fed up and quit. 50/50.

 

Tie drops to enemy tiers, make an 'adversaries & equipment' system in game where we see the rewards for each tier after killing X number of them. Something, anything besides blindly hunting.

Edited October 13, 2013 by notionphil

[Dracosaber]

exactly this. 

 

I don't know how many corrupted heavy-gunners I need to kill in what tier range, to give myself the best chance at finding whirlwind.

 

or if I'm even hunting in the right place. :|

 

Wow, I have the exact same problem. I've been grinding for Whirlwind for a while, absolutely no luck. 

 

This topic needs to gain more support, because honestly we need the droptables, or something close. I understand the need to fight hacking, but it wouldn't be an issue if they just gave us the tables to begin with. I don't want to just try everything and hope. I want to know where I can get what. Once you reach a certain point in the game, that's all you want.

 

DE, please, release this information as soon as possible. There is literally no point in holding it back. None. Zero. Immersion is killed the moment you have most things you want and are looking for a certain something anyways. Not only that, really only those that want particular things are going to care to look at such tables, and they'll find other ways to figure this stuff out if they have to, or just stop playing. 

 

Both options are not good, so please, help your community. 

[Destro6677]

Please DE, PLEASE!!

[LtZefar]

In the game Ragnarok Online people had access to all the loot drops and at what % levels. It didn't harm the game at all. Also the game kept monsters in their own places and sometimes mixed them but if you wanted to hunt for a certain item you could go and do it.

 

Here trying to find rare stuff by force is almost impossible. You're far more likely to get it at random from some enemy when you least expect it.

 

At least in the start what I remember infected dropped skill cards. Grineer dropped like damage mods and Corpus dropped some other mods. I might have mixed up Grineer and Corpus but they first had a logic to the drops. Then that changed to something else. Messed things up.

 

Then we had other drop tables that you could read but I found out that Hell's Chamber was dropped by the flying Fusion drone. The drone that detach itself from the Fusion MOA. WHAT where they thinking?

 

Survival now has no clear drops on Void keys except that we know we get one on 15 minute mark. Before we could get ones at 5 minute mark almost all the time. Then Tier 2 at like 10 or 15 minute and T3 after that. Now I've gotten money reward on Eris Survival maps. TWICE in a row. That does not fly well with me. 

 

Defense maps loves to give Fire damage mods or Freeze mods far more than anything else too. Even if it seems to be a high level Defense map.

There is almost no reward to go to a higher level map in most cases.

[KARMA2605]

From DE's posting in multiple threads, this major point of contention seems to have been acknowledged and is being discussed internally.  Assuming we take those statements on face value (which I choose too, otherwise I too would have likely given up on this game by now), it will be interesting to see what is done.  Short term I don't see anything being done, to be honest.  Long term, likely a Codex of sorts similar to what DEScott mentioned in Livestream 14 (I believe).

 

They are definitely aware of the issue however.

 

Perhaps notionphil, maybe we take the same approach here that you and others did with the upcoming Armor2.0 - let's start a thread on are suggestions of how we'd like to see a "Codex" work in the game, keeping in mind it has to be something flexible that allows DE to update it each time the tables are changed.

[rksk16it]

If DE continue with this shi**y decision to hide drop tables and NOT releasing any official info about drops, then for many players (including me) its only a matter of time when we conclude : "OK THATS ENOUGH, FK IT"

 

... and then play other game, never look at warframe again.

[notionphil]

From DE's posting in multiple threads, this major point of contention seems to have been acknowledged and is being discussed internally.  Assuming we take those statements on face value (which I choose too, otherwise I too would have likely given up on this game by now), it will be interesting to see what is done.  Short term I don't see anything being done, to be honest.  Long term, likely a Codex of sorts similar to what DEScott mentioned in Livestream 14 (I believe).

 

They are definitely aware of the issue however.

 

Perhaps notionphil, maybe we take the same approach here that you and others did with the upcoming Armor2.0 - let's start a thread on are suggestions of how we'd like to see a "Codex" work in the game, keeping in mind it has to be something flexible that allows DE to update it each time the tables are changed.

 

I don't mean to attack your post, but I don't think they are aware of the issue.

 

I think they're aware that players were datamining because we wanted to see drop tables. They had a justifiable reaction to their game being hacked, and they've made statements about having access to all of the data ruining exploration/mystery. I agree with those statements.

 

However...

 

I don't think DE realizes that item/mod drops are the only meaningful progression in Warframe and having no drop tables = having no pathway to progression. This is not a 'Mystery VS No Mystery' option, as I believe DE sees it.

 

This would be akin to a traditional MMO turning off XP gain from most enemies (RNG chance at xp) for an unspecified period of time, until they figured something out internally. The magnitude of the ban cannot be overstated on veteran play.

 

As an example, I am (was) currently farming Fang Prime BP:

 

I once got the drop from T3 Def right after update 10 (but then the server crashed and i lost it), but Wiki says it's not there any longer and is now in T1. However, Wiki can be wrong now bc of the ban and the void tables have changed. I've run T1 def, the stated location, 8 times this weekend, and not gotten the drop. Maybe it's not at T1. I have no idea.

 

I literally have no idea what to do next, and there's no way for me to find out. I asked in region and got all sorts of answers from T1 def, to check the wiki, to T3 def, to T2 mob. Any of these could be correct, outright incorrect, or previously correct. Tables change all of the time. Playing these missions gives me nothing else I want (which is a separate problem that needs to be addresed; lack of Direct progression). I don't want mastery, and I dont particularly want to add more Formas to my weapons.

 

So instead, I logged out.

 

Yes, we can suggest a format for a codex. Good idea, lets be constructive, but first we need to make sure DE understands that an issue exists. We haven't seen that they do.

Edited October 13, 2013 by notionphil

[Aethernet]

I didn't even realize they banned datamining.  That's kind of silly.

[NICKTHECHAMP11]

Ever since update 10.3, Ive always gotten a bp from bosses. Not sure if this was intentional, and Im pretty sure it was just luck, but if so thats a huge change.

[notionphil]

Ever since update 10.3, Ive always gotten a bp from bosses. Not sure if this was intentional, and Im pretty sure it was just luck, but if so thats a huge change.

 

Yes, that was intentional (patch notes) and it was a change for the better.

 

However, if you are a new player (and hundreds/thousands sign up every day), there is not a single thing in game to tell you which boss to run, or which system to check if you'd like that BP. "Check the wiki" is not going to be an acceptable answer for the vast majority of casual players - especially console players that join bc of PS4.

 

Not to mention - void missions have such diluted loot tables, created with no rhyme or reason and such varied loot, that you'd have no idea what could drop by running it X times.

 

The game needs a codex, now more than ever for multiple reasons.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Long-term, I'd like to see a lot more enemy types.  Not just ones that are straight upgrades, but using different tactics and weapons.  They should have unique drops and be focused on certain planets so you don't see a Grineer Kodiak for instance on anything other than Ceres.

 

Also, we do need a Codex.  Not just for lore, but now for drop tables.

 

 

The other thing to consider though is that we, those of us who are on the forum/wiki/reddit, are actually likely a minority of the community.  We've stuck around so long because we've had access to things such as this.  I started farming for the Braton Prime recently.  Were it not for the drop tables, I never would have found the components.  It's just blindly shooting in the dark without them.  We can't rely on what people say on the wiki because there's no way of verifying what they say about drops without the tables.  It could just be that the person trying to verify is exceedingly unlucky and thus doesn't get the desired item.  Also, the drop tables change frequently, so any effort would become outdated quickly.

 

If we are going to get behind a Codex, we are going to need it to display at minimum what drops where and at what rarity (common/uncommon/rare/ultra-rare).  Honestly, I don't even care if it's a community wide thing where's it's just a sum of all the things have dropped so far.  With a community of this size, we should approach the true value fairly easily I would think.  Then, every time the tables get changed, just reset the table.

 

Now, I'd prefer it if the devs just gave us the table, but at least a community-wide drop counter would be useful within a couple days of an update.

 

 

I don't think DE realizes that item/mod drops are the only meaningful progression in Warframe and having no drop tables = having no pathway to progression. This is not a 'Mystery VS No Mystery' option, as I believe DE sees it.

 

Yes, we can suggest a format for a codex. Good idea, lets be constructive, but first we need to make sure DE understands that an issue exists. We haven't seen that they do.

 

I feel like this would be a good time to post this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1o3jzr/1030_rewarddrop_tables_where_are_they/

 

Steve is aware that people are displeased and has said that he can see about a stopgap before the UI catches up.  That makes me think that some form of drop codex is in the pipe, but we do need a stopgap.  Badly.  That said, I don't think he realizes just how negatively this impacted their game.

 

No one here is upset about anti-hacking measures.  It's just that when our atlas is burned in the process, we're a bit lost on how to get somewhere.  We don't have to know what every house looks like in every neighborhood.  We just need to know the general layout of a city and how to get there.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[KARMA2605]

Snip...

 

Yes, we can suggest a format for a codex. Good idea, lets be constructive, but first we need to make sure DE understands that an issue exists. We haven't seen that they do.

 

Don't worry, conflicting opinions don't bother me so I never feel "attacked".

 

I do think DE is aware that the encrypted tables bother players, so in that sense I do believe "they are aware of the issue".

 

Whether that means they are think along the same lines as you, that I can agree is another point of contention.  The game is completely playable without any sense of the loot tables - harder, yes; unplayable, hardly.  Issues regarding what people see as "must have" mods is a fault in DE's design of the game yes, so in not letting us the players easily find where to acquire these mods can be seen as an issue.  But to play Devil's Advocate here, from DE's perspective is that not merely a convenience issue?  "The mods are there, they can be gotten, proceed so" sort of opinion.

 

The proposed "codex" would allow players to know locations or enemies they found mods on/from.  Then players can help players to know where to acquire said mods.  From the different posts/quotes, etc that I have witnessed that seems to be DE's goal.  However it does not seem something destined to come out before the end of the month, for example.  Something DERebecca said in the last Tenno Prime Time led me to believe DE works closely with the warframewiki - if that is the case, allow mod drop information to either be posted or "leaked" there in the mean time.

 

That all said, I do agree with you that lack of transparency or confusion regarding the "reward" system of this game is a major issue for players - especially when there is no reliable source other than hearsay.

 

And yes, if you or someone else starts a post on what they'd like to see from a possible "codex", I would absolutely contribute.

Edited October 13, 2013 by KARMA2605

[rksk16it]

...

Whether that means they are think along the same lines as you, that I can agree is another point of contention.  The game is completely playable without any sense of the loot tables - harder, yes; unplayable, hardly...

 

For veteran players who have all the so called _necessary_ mods, lack of mod drop info, doesnt make game hard or unplayable. It just makes it pointless, as noted by OP as well. That player is not looking for serration or split chamber, he/she is looking for things like whirlwind, prime weapon parts etc. He/she most likely have multi-forma'd soma, acrid, ogris, galatine .. etc, thus making whirlwind kindda pointless to get from _necessity_ reasons. Its just an excuse to keep playing.

 

Unless ofc if you are trying to push yourself to limits with endless defense/survival, which also gets old pretty fast for many players.

[EctoSage]

I personally have sworn off Void Missions till they fix the random RNG. (I thought maybe in the last few patches something might have changed & ran 4 T1 Survival missions, only to get stuff I already have every time.

[A_MALLARD_DUCK]

I'm desperate for drop tables. PLEASE DE. Treat the time of your fans with respect. Working towards a long-term goal is fine, blindly shooting in the dark for a 1/1000 chance mod to drop is not.

[notionphil]

For veteran players who have all the so called _necessary_ mods, lack of mod drop info, doesnt make game hard or unplayable. It just makes it pointless, as noted by OP as well. That player is not looking for serration or split chamber, he/she is looking for things like whirlwind, prime weapon parts etc. He/she most likely have multi-forma'd soma, acrid, ogris, galatine .. etc, thus making whirlwind kindda pointless to get from _necessity_ reasons. Its just an excuse to keep playing.

 

Unless ofc if you are trying to push yourself to limits with endless defense/survival, which also gets old pretty fast for many players.

 

Exactly this, which is why I cited "longterm" players. You can grind totally oblivious of these issues until you reach a vaugely determined "lategame" status, where you have all/most of the required mods and basic frames. Once you get to the point where playing starmap missions has negligible chance of giving you anything that you want, you lose any means of self-directed progression without a drop table/codex.

 

eg, you have no reason to play, because you can't figure out where to go next to get what you want.

[notionphil]

Long-term, I'd like to see a lot more enemy types.  Not just ones that are straight upgrades, but using different tactics and weapons.  They should have unique drops and be focused on certain planets so you don't see a Grineer Kodiak for instance on anything other than Ceres.

 

 

Sigh....

 

I can't even express how much this would improve nearly every aspect of the game if executed well; from RNG, to mission replayability to lore to challenge....

 

If I had to choose between an expanded, mission specific beastiary (w commensurate drops) and Cells (or a similar lore/quest mechanism), I'd be torn. I'd probably even want this prior.