Rng Based Progress + No Drop Tables = No Longterm Players.

[EirikAura]

If you consider running a mission once grinding, I'm pretty sure you're doing it wrong.

 

Your preference would be?

 

once you've killed it X times.

(complete either once or X times, discuss)

Grind grind grind, and all this just to find out who/where/what drops what. Then rinse and repeat until you finally grind enough times on enough missions to realise it's not dropping on one of the planets so you start keygrinding the void - OD and towers, all key types, hoping that you'll find the answer. By which time you have to be granted time out of the straightjacket to play!

 

Don't you get this? Drop tables not only reduce grind, they actively keep players interested because they KNOW where to get things they want without aimless wandering hoping SOMEONE might have it in their hip pocket on the missions you're in.

[notionphil]

Grind grind grind, and all this just to find out who/where/what drops what. Then rinse and repeat until you finally grind enough times on enough missions to realise it's not dropping on one of the planets so you start keygrinding the void - OD and towers, all key types, hoping that you'll find the answer. By which time you have to be granted time out of the straightjacket to play!

 

Don't you get this? Drop tables not only reduce grind, they actively keep players interested because they KNOW where to get things they want without aimless wandering hoping SOMEONE might have it in their hip pocket on the missions you're in.

 

I simply don't agree with you, and I don't think everything needs to be handed to players on a silver platter - in game at least. It dumbs the game down and removes the mystery. Exploring and earning information is a reward into itself.

 

The information, once unlocked by any player, will be put in a wiki online. As it was prior to this encryption. Don't want to unlock the info? Use the wiki.

 

I don't know of a good game that tells you right out of the gate where everything is, and how to get each item from the second you start playing. You earn that information by exploring. Do you think I made up the concept of ???, of course not, its a classic RPG/ARPG mechanic letting you know that drops exist, and you can unobfuscate the ??? by doing something. Or if you're impatient, you can google it.

 

The game needs more reasons for self-directed exploration, I see this as a perfect opportunity. Curious what the 2nd drop of level 30 Grineer Scorpions is? Go play some lv 30 Grineer missions. Not curious and just want Whirlwind? Google it.

 

Either way, DE is not going to release a comprehensive, unobfuscated Bible of mod drops and rewards, I will bet you 100 plat. Be realistic about the game we are playing and what the developer's goals are. I attempt to create ideas which are in line with the dev's stated goals, to at least have a shot of improving the game. Releasing all drop tables simply isn't in line with their vision as they've already said via reddit.

 

This is already many steps from their proposal, which was telling you where the drops you've already obtained were from, which is nearly useless in game (but useful on wiki).

Edited October 14, 2013 by notionphil

[theammostore]

I'm more or less confused as to why people are so hung up on progression. I agree giving no roadmap as to where things drop is bad, but why do you need it to begin with? Why can't you just play the game to have fun playing the game? I'm expecting answers along the lines of "because you need progression to have fun" and "without progression there's no point to play," but those just don't make sense to me. I'll probably play this game long after everyone leaves. It's fun, it's exciting. Cutting a swath through a horde of grineer with a giant hammer disguised as an engine block, flip kicking a Corpus up into the only to jump up and drive him back down with my fist, or even doing a suplex on a Charger into blasting an Ancient with saw blades until it's just a pile of meat, these are all fun things to me.

[rksk16it]

I'm more or less confused as to why people are so hung up on progression. I agree giving no roadmap as to where things drop is bad, but why do you need it to begin with? Why can't you just play the game to have fun playing the game? I'm expecting answers along the lines of "because you need progression to have fun" and "without progression there's no point to play," but those just don't make sense to me. I'll probably play this game long after everyone leaves. It's fun, it's exciting. Cutting a swath through a horde of grineer with a giant hammer disguised as an engine block, flip kicking a Corpus up into the only to jump up and drive him back down with my fist, or even doing a suplex on a Charger into blasting an Ancient with saw blades until it's just a pile of meat, these are all fun things to me.

 

Because _YOUR_ idea of fun is not everyone's idea of fun maybe. Did you thought about that ?

[theammostore]

Because _YOUR_ idea of fun is not everyone's idea of fun maybe. Did you thought about that ?

Yes I did, but that doesn't mean I understand why you think you have to have progression in a game.

[rksk16it]

Yes I did, but that doesn't mean I understand why you think you have to have progression in a game.

 

Because there is really nothing to understand. You just need to acknowlege the fact that other people find pleasure in things which you find meaningless.

[notionphil]

Yes I did, but that doesn't mean I understand why you think you have to have progression in a game.

 

 

Because there is really nothing to understand. You just need to acknowlege the fact that other people find pleasure in things which you find meaningless.

 

Animals, including humans, like rewards. It's based on a plethora of psychological phenomena such as variable interval reinforcement (aka the slot machine effect = RNG) and classical/operant conditioning.

 

That's a long way of saying, when we perform an action which results in us getting us something that we like, our brains make us want to undertake that action again. Rewards, powerups, achievements etc in games are all ways of reinforcing a player to continue interacting with the game world, in specific ways, in hopes that he continues playing the game and comes to appreciate/learn the various systems/content in the game.

 

This off topic blurb ties into why I think we should be unlocking drop tables via interaction instead of just being handed a fully filled out codex. It would give us new rewards for seeking out and killing enemies, across the level ranges of the game. Its a new type of reward, almost like an achievement.

 

I do agree that there should be some way in game to search for a particular mod that you haven't unlocked in any of your tables, and it must be simple. Will think on that.

Edited October 14, 2013 by notionphil

[r3dzer0]

so i can fully understand Notionphil, your idea next to Volt's is basically, have there be a way to find the drops in game.  This would mean kill x enemies to see what they drop, after you kill grineer scorpions x number of times they reveal one by one the drops that they have in their table.  After you run void mission x number of times you have a list of the items you can get.  as well as if you achieve one of those rewards it auto unlocks the reward removing the ???? for that slot correct?

 

I think this is a fair trade off between having the data in game and adding a bit of (pardon my termage since its a taboo word here ) grind along the way so its not there automatically. 

 

The only problem would be as stated when they add new mods, change drop tables etc, since having to go back and kill X units again could get very agitating.  I'm not sure what would be a solution to this problem.  Obviously with having it handed to you, the map would still be the map.  without it, you'd get mad that all that hard work was flushed down the drain with the update would unequivocally cause many to rage quit. 

 

Where perhaps would be the happy medium?

[ForgemasterHD]

I support this topic, +9001 for you sir.

 

 

Meaningful edit: Sorry, was a bit pressed for time. I find it exceedingly hard to play this game for any length of time simply because I feel my efforts are wasted a full 90% of the time. What is the point if I am going to waste my time? I could be, and often end up doing other things because I feel Warframe in it's current state is simply a waste of time.

Edited October 15, 2013 by ForgemasterHD

[ScorchedIce]

Oh RNG, why do you hate us so much, but seriously, i can't agree more with op, in all of the points made, especially:

 

"in what tier range"

 

Please, for the love of anything that was ever good, in any videogame....this.

 

Tying mod drops to enemies works in other games because there are as many enemies as drops! Most enemies have 1 common drop and 1 rare, and thats it. Each enemy is found in a handful of specific places in game.

 

In WF, it's a clusterF. Every enemy is present on every mission, across every level of that faction. Are enemy drops tied to tiers? I've heard rumours but had no idea. Hunting drops for most people feels like, just go run a million levels of X faction, maybe you'll get it, or maybe you'll get fed up and quit. 50/50.

 

Tie drops to enemy tiers, make an 'adversaries & equipment' system in game where we see the rewards for each tier after killing X number of them. Something, anything besides blindly hunting.

 

I've suffered that for around a month (a couple days after U10 came out) repeating endlessly Kappa for a chance to get Hell's Chamber, and Apollodorus for Flow, T3 Void Missions, Endless defenses in various planets, you call it, i've tried everything, aaaaaand nothing.

 

Not even a sign of "yes keep farming here you'll get it eventually". For god's sake i don't even know if the damned things drop in one of those places to begin with! i've asked so many people, pages, the wiki, etc. and nothing. All i get is "go here you have like 0,nothing% chance to get it on wave 5" or, "just keep trying"

 

A F****NG MONTH

[notionphil]

so i can fully understand Notionphil, your idea next to Volt's is basically, have there be a way to find the drops in game.  This would mean kill x enemies to see what they drop, after you kill grineer scorpions x number of times they reveal one by one the drops that they have in their table.  After you run void mission x number of times you have a list of the items you can get.  as well as if you achieve one of those rewards it auto unlocks the reward removing the ???? for that slot correct?

 

I think this is a fair trade off between having the data in game and adding a bit of (pardon my termage since its a taboo word here ) grind along the way so its not there automatically. 

 

The only problem would be as stated when they add new mods, change drop tables etc, since having to go back and kill X units again could get very agitating.  I'm not sure what would be a solution to this problem.  Obviously with having it handed to you, the map would still be the map.  without it, you'd get mad that all that hard work was flushed down the drain with the update would unequivocally cause many to rage quit. 

 

Where perhaps would be the happy medium?

 

IMO once you've unlocked a level or enemy loot table, it would stay unlocked, even if changed.

 

If you unlocked the table for T1 Def rewards, and they re-shuffle T1 Def rewards after a patch, or add new parts to it, you can see the updated version.

 

Same with a mob, if you had lv 30-40 grineer scorps loot table unlocked, and they changed it, you'd see the updated loot table.

 

Having said all of that, there should be some mechanic for looking up/searching for mods that you haven't ever seen in game yet. Like if I want to know where whirlwind is there should be a page I can consult in the codex that at least gives me some vague direction.

 

------------------------

Whirlwind:

 

Drops from

-Grineer Lv 50-60

-Corpus Lv 72-85

 

------------------------

 

Those would point me in the right direction of at least trying to fill out my Grineer Lv 50-60 tables. Once I actually got one, it would give the specific name and level range of the mob instead of the general faction. Or if I had already uncovered who drops the mod in my enemy loot tables, that would show up here.

 

Or I could consult the wiki. Maybe that's not enough, I'm not sure. This is a work in progress, rough idea. Maybe I will put something together tomorrow on it.

Edited October 14, 2013 by notionphil

[Spiffmeister]

Data mining is a step on the road to hacking, and the complete information dump created can take the mystery/fun out of the game for both new and old players.

The point is that Warframe had an anti-cheat system designed to detect cheat software. So there's already an anti-hacker system in place. If they can't detect the hackers with their software, there's still nothing stopping them from tweaking the drops.

 

My second point would be this; DE (surely) isn't making money from mods, they're making money from cosmetics. You can't (as far as I'm aware) hack a cosmetic item into the game, so DE isn't losing any money.

 

Third, if you want to have mystery in your drops, don't look at the drop tables.

 

Encrpyting the drop tables is kind of like putting SecuRom or some other DRM on your game, the only people you're screwing are the legitimate players. If drops were reliable then this wouldn't be as much of a problem (it'd still be a problem), but they're not. Some mods have such a low drop chance that if it wasn't for the dataminers odds are no one would even know some of the rare mods existed. There is no longevity in guesswork.

There is no logic in DE's decision.

[EirikAura]

I simply don't agree with you, and I don't think everything needs to be handed to players on a silver platter - in game at least. It dumbs the game down and removes the mystery. Exploring and earning information is a reward into itself.

You still don't get it. There is NO progression in this game. There is no story arc, no mission rewards or leveling that you get in other rpg's. The ONLY leveling in this game is the mods. If we don't know where they are then what's the bloody point? The game is build around building frames and weapons, leveling them and modding them. If we can't get the mods then we are losing out on gameplay, which will lead to boredom and losing players.

 

I still have frames and weapons to build and try but I am constantly coming up short on mods that are considered essential for late game. Split/Hells Chamber and Focus, for example. Where are they now? Do I still have to farm Vor for Focus or do I need to kill someone else? Where is Split Chamber? Datamining was the only roadmap to actual progression. 200+ hours of gameplay so far, I've been killing all these things for that long and NOW I have to start all over to find out who drops what. That is annoying as hell. If the system had been in place then I doubt anyone would've moaned but having to basically restart now? That's an insult.

[notionphil]

You still don't get it. There is NO progression in this game. There is no story arc, no mission rewards or leveling that you get in other rpg's. The ONLY leveling in this game is the mods. If we don't know where they are then what's the bloody point? The game is build around building frames and weapons, leveling them and modding them. If we can't get the mods then we are losing out on gameplay, which will lead to boredom and losing players.

 

I still have frames and weapons to build and try but I am constantly coming up short on mods that are considered essential for late game. Split/Hells Chamber and Focus, for example. Where are they now? Do I still have to farm Vor for Focus or do I need to kill someone else? Where is Split Chamber? Datamining was the only roadmap to actual progression. 200+ hours of gameplay so far, I've been killing all these things for that long and NOW I have to start all over to find out who drops what. That is annoying as hell. If the system had been in place then I doubt anyone would've moaned but having to basically restart now? That's an insult.

 

I fully agree that we need a way to search for mods we don't yet have, my prior X posts have mentioned that. Pls go back and look at them.

 

However, no I don't agree we need all drop tables handed to us - I think it would be fun to earn that information, as long as given fair tools. I simply don't agree with you, and that's that. Let's agree to disagree.

 

I think people who need the info now, and can't bear to earn it via exploration, can wiki. Those who want to explore should have the chance, myself included.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I fully agree that we need a way to search for mods we don't yet have, my prior X posts have mentioned that. Pls go back and look at them.

 

However, no I don't agree we need all drop tables handed to us - I think it would be fun to earn that information, as long as given fair tools. I simply don't agree with you, and that's that. Let's agree to disagree.

 

I think people who need the info now, and can't bear to earn it via exploration, can wiki. Those who want to explore should have the chance, myself included.

The problem with not having the raw data tables is things like "formagate" "voidgate" and "defensegate" take much longer to prove it's a problem, rather than RNG.

[alocrius]

Well its obvious to me they plan to implement a whole new progression system not based on mod acquisition.. And they are going to balance the armor system so everyone is happy, cure Technocyte plague and prototype a new free energy warframe.  *whistles merrily off into the crowd 

Edited October 15, 2013 by alocrius

[notionphil]

Well its obvious to me they plan to implement a whole new progression system not based on mod acquisition.. And they are going to balance the armor system so everyone is happy, cure Technocyte plague and prototype a new free energy warframe.  *whistles merrily off into the crowd 

 

a Tenno can dream.... ;)

[capia]

yes I got to agree the drop tables suck period and whats the point of the game with no real progression except leveling weapons. The game graphics and layouts are good but no real direction after some 700 hours of play time and doing void missions still get a lot of lame drops that I already have tons of.

[alocrius]

Its true though, I don't think knowing the rarity of a drop would deter people from playing.  But it would quell civil unrest.  Just look at your state lottery.  Not very good odds there yet people crank it out over and over.  

Edited October 15, 2013 by alocrius

[EirikAura]

I think people who need the info now, and can't bear to earn it via exploration, can wiki. Those who want to explore should have the chance, myself included.

The problem is we don't know that the Wiki is correct. Pre encryption it might have been, barring some scrote changing it for the hell of it, but now we don't know. They could've changed the whole loot table post encryption and we wouldn't know until we find something where it shouldn't be. THIS is what the drop table is needed for. If the Wiki is correct then we don't need one but how do we know it is? How do we know someone hasn't simply mistaken where they got the mod and updated the page in error? We don't. Official tables should be available as an option for those who don't want to spend another who-knows how many hours trying to locate the place/mob that drops the mod that they are searching for.

 

Knowing which mob/boss drops a mod doesn't make the mod suddenly appear, we still have to grind for it and hope RNG favours us. What it does it let us know we're searching in the right place - the right faction, tier, boss etc., rather than tons of fruitless searching only to find out that where the wiki said it was doesn't apply any more...

[Lord.Finster]

Very nice. Once you have stopped running after false progress you'll finally be able to enjoy the game.

If you want to have fun in this game, as it is at the moment, you'll need to stop thinking like a westerner.

If you're playing this game for the rewards you are doing it wrong because nothing in this game encourages you to do that.

No milestones via token system, RNG is frustrating, information scarce, droptables regularly messed up and bugged, farming is monotonous (better than MMORPG though), skill mostly irrelevant for progression.

 

Just play the game, try to enjoy the gameplay and eventually you'll find what you need, if you're lucky. If not, try to compensate in a different way.

If life never gives you Split Chamber but it gives you Hell's Chamber you should take it as a sign to play with shotguns...even if you hate shotguns.

Deal with it.

 

Should you find out the gameplay isn't fun, you shouldn't have played in the first place because no reward in the world is going to change the fact that the gaming experience was horrible. Even if you, in the end, get the big reward the game will still be horrible and it will be especially obvious to those who already have all the rewards.

 

This is why I believe, DE should stop focussing on player rewards and start improving the gameplay.

If they manage to make the gameplay fun enough people will see the rewards as sth. nonessential.

You can still enjoy the cake without the icing.

 

A call to DE at this point!

If the message 'Mission Successful' isn't rewarding enough for the player in itself, you're doing it wrong.

Rewards are nice but they can't replace the heartracing feeling of good gameplay.

[zteeldragon]

The thing that keep me playing this game is Vauban hamlet. :\

[EirikAura]

Fact is, without certain mods you will not be able to progress to harder content and not knowing where to finds those mods is damned frustrating.

[mulechan]

To the people that think getting a in game table that tells you what has dropped for you would encourage exploration and long term playing: Some long term player will just screenshot his/her table and it would be the same as the datamined table.

No one is forcing you to look up the tables, it is for those of us who RNG has screwed over and want to hunt for something in particular, eg 200hrs and no serration. Or to the fubar void tables, where a latron prime part wasnt even part of the drop; and when only t1 and t3 would give you the part you want and you could have been running t2s for days.

[Vanguardxsin]

Honestly, I've given up trying to do Tier 3 Survivals multiple times only at the 15 min mark to be rewarded with Mobile Defense I or T2 Keys with the slight chance of getting a T3, maybe I was too simple to think that or I missed something in the patch notes that Tier 3 missions/survivals would reward me with T3 keys at the 15 min mark, If I cant get closer to what I'm trying to achieve (Last Orthos Prime Blade) and (Frost Prime Systems) why am I wasting my time playing this time consuming/wasting game? **** RNG may as well let me buy the parts I need than suffer.