How To 're-Tier' Soma Without A Nerf Or Buff

[notionphil]

Before this thread degenerates into a 'Some is OP/no its not' thread, consider this simple suggestion:

 

Allow Speed Trigger(& shred) to boost fire rate & ammo consumption on continuous fire weapons (Flux, Synapse, Ignis, Embolist)

 

This allows for a straight increase in DPS for these weapons, at the cost of even further reduced sustained fire time. Nothing has to be nerfed or buffed to rebalance these high mastery weapons with Soma.

 

Why do we want other weapons comparable to Soma?

 

With the upcoming mastery boost to 6, DE has indicated that Soma is to be a standard of weapon quality and should be thus restricted to high rank players. Understood and accepted . However, that won't solve the issue that even rank 6, Soma is still more powerful (with less drawbacks such as range, or lack of accuracy, or odd damage type) than every other weapon in the game, and is in the hands of 10,000+ of lower rank players.

 

This creates a very monotonous situation where most players in game use the Soma, simply bc it's the most powerful and easiest to use gun.

 

So, without a nerf to soma, which no one really wants - the only solution is to make other weapons more viable. Thankfully, most of the high mastery weapons in the game all have the same weakness - no way to boost their fire rate bc the commonly used Shred and Speed Trigger do not work with them. All we need to do is correct that weakness.

 

All of the held trigger weapons have limited range and poor ammo efficiency, but still, do LESS DPS than Soma. Letting fire rate boost Continuous weapon DPS would make them 'specialty' close range burst damage weapons, as compared with Soma's new 'standard' of being easy-to-use damage.

 

Balance isn't just for now, its for After Armor 2.0

 

Also - when Armor 2.0 arrives, it's likely that stacking elemental damage will be even less viable to add damage to a weapon. Soma does not rely on elements, due to crit build, while these weapons do. Thus it's likely Soma will be comparatively even more powerful after Armor 2.0. Allowing Fire rate to affect held trigger his change will give these continuous weapons a way to add addl damage and stay competitive after armor 2.0.

 

The Goal of Balance is to Give Players Choice

 

Allowing fire rate to affect continuous weapons re-balances the equation, and gives us the choices of:

 

-the "balanced" standard Soma with no tradeoffs but slightly less burst DPS than the unwieldy held trigger guns.

-a specialty, higher DPS weapon which must be carefully managed to avoid running out of ammo/clip

Edited October 23, 2013 by notionphil

[tahrox]

Just wait for the patch to deploy before whining about it.

[Egg_Chen]

You have my +1

 

I love my Flux, and I love it with Shred even though I know half the mod is effectively wasted.

I'd always hoped this would be changed a bit like projectile weapons not having piercing effect.

 

Here's to hoping.

[tigrex]

All Continuous weapons have bad ammo economy and giving them higher fire rate would just make it worse.

[notionphil]

Just wait for the patch to deploy before whining about it.

 

Waiting for the DE announced soma mastery fix to deploy will change nothing - we already know the contents of said patch.

 

Thanks for your helpful contribution to this discussion about a resolution of an issue in game, from a totally different perspective.

 

EDIT - clarified - talking about soma mastery fix patch

Edited October 23, 2013 by notionphil

[notionphil]

All Continuous weapons have bad ammo economy and giving them higher fire rate would just make it worse.

 

changing fire rate does nothing to ammo economy.... the damage per shot stays the same.

 

Unless you are referring to more shots spent shooting thin air, which would be based on user skill.

[tahrox]

Waiting for a patch to deploy will change nothing - we already know the contents of said patch.

 

Thanks for your helpful contribution to this discussion about a resolution of an issue in game, from a totally different perspective.

No you don't. Nobody really knows how damage 2.0 will end up like, for sure. And if I am wrong, you are welcome to prove me.

[notionphil]

No you don't. Nobody really knows how damage 2.0 will end up like, for sure. And if I am wrong, you are welcome to prove me.

 

true - I was not referring to damage 2.0 - i was talking about the soma mastery increase patch, likely today. My speculations on D 2.0 were solely speculations.

 

And lest you think we should 'wait for the patch' before 'whining', remember how armor 2.0 elemental proc rate was going to be tied to crit rate (and make balance totally impossible)?

 

Our 'whines' before the patch are what prevented that. It was announced by DE elemental procs would no longer be tied to crit rate.

[Ragnarlee_Prime]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... What? I am so confused, I am casual compared too you guys, at least when it comes to knowledge of the damage system. Elements can critically hit? So having crit chance coupled with elemental mods can give you TONS OF DAMAGE? Is this the current system or the next damage system?

Edited October 25, 2013 by Dr.Schanbel

[LukeAura]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... What? I am so confused, I am casual compared too you guys, at last when it comes to knowledge of the damage system. Elements can critically hit? So having crit chance coupled with elemental mods can give you TONS OF DAMAGE? Is this the current system or the next damage system?

Currently critical hits multiply base damage. And element damage is run off of base damage so critical hits do technically happen to elements in the current system. 

The new system was going to tie elements chances to crit chances but that was scrapped due to player outcry. 

I've heard elements will have their own proc rate tied to each gun separate from crit. But I'm not sure on that. 

[Neruell]

Someone can foresee future events here. I thought that people are clever enough to understand that magic and wizardry doesn't exist and no one can tell the future.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Neruell

[notionphil]

Someone can foresee future events here. I thought that people are clever enough to understand that magic and wizardry doesn't exist and no one can tell the future.

 

Yes, look into my crystal ball AKA, the livestreams.

 

You know DE already said elements wouldn't stack in damage 2.0, right? they would instead change into a 3rd element type. And they DE also said they wanted to reduce reliance on skittles build.

[Archistopheles]

Why should beam weapons be less affected by accuracy negatives (heavy calibur) yet still be allowed to gain full bonuses from fire speed?

[tahrox]

Considering the addition of the procs and the elemental damage changes, anything could happen. How many different damages can I have on the same weapon? Is it worth to have crits if they proc less? Etc.

 

For example, will it be possible to have corrossive and another damage combo at the same time, considering they are not using the same base elementals?

[Archistopheles]

How many different damages can I have on the same weapon?

 

 

Two for a non-elemental weapon, so I'm going to guess 1 for an elemental weapon (Not including using the same elemental e.g. heat on ignis)

[Neruell]

Well I know I am not a native speaker but I didn't see a lot of that in the livestream. What happens if I combine armor pierce and fire? Or Fire and electricity? How much % of what effect will it give me? Are there any downsides to this particular combinations? Does it somehow modify damage or does it only add effects? What about armor in general, do the enemies have "new" elemental armor/weakness? How is it scalable now? In the end, how effective bullet type weapons will be like soma?

 

 

Since you have all the needed information I would like you to provide everyone with this useful information because we can already post our feedback about it now.

[Archistopheles]

Well I know I am not a native speaker but I didn't see a lot of that in the livestream. What happens if I combine armor pierce and fire? Or Fire and electricity? How much % of what effect will it give me? Are there any downsides to this particular combinations? Does it somehow modify damage or does it only add effects? What about armor in general, do the enemies have "new" elemental armor/weakness? How is it scalable now? In the end, how effective bullet type weapons will be like soma?

 

 

Since you have all the needed information I would like you to provide everyone with this useful information because we can already post our feedback about it now.

 

 

Armor Pierce will be a "Bonus Percentage" instead of elemental damage, so it will still work with all other mods like normal.

 

Heat + Electricity = Radiation which will cause AoE Confuse.

 

We don't know the %s yet, and there are bonuses and negatives to every combination.

 

The rest of your questions will be answered when Armor 2.0 comes out.

 

What Is Armor 2.0 And Why Should I Care?

Edited October 23, 2013 by Archistopheles

[notionphil]

Why should beam weapons be less affected by accuracy negatives (heavy calibur) yet still be allowed to gain full bonuses from fire speed?

 

To bring them in line with the other top tier weapons in the game, Strun Wraith and Soma. 

 

I'd guesstimate that a Flux with maxed heavy cal + 30% fire rate from shred would be near or slightly higher than the DPS of a Soma/sWraith, which would make sense given its considerably shorter range than one, and worse ammo economy than the other.

 

the DPS is a guess - but feel free to do that math.

[ChaoticVice777]

To bring them in line with the other top tier weapons in the game, Strun Wraith and Soma. 

 

I'd guesstimate that a Flux with maxed heavy cal + 30% fire rate from shred would be near or slightly higher than the DPS of a Soma/sWraith, which would make sense given its considerably shorter range than one, and worse ammo economy than the other.

 

the DPS is a guess - but feel free to do that math.

 

And then the Soma can equip those same mods, leaving the same gap intact. Fire Rate mods may close the gap slightly, but it's a band-aid solution, at best. There's no sense of balance in the Soma beyond Mastery Rank (which still doesn't make sense when comparing its peers). Right now, it's the "wait and see" approach until Armor/Damage 2.0.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[notionphil]

And then the Soma can equip those same mods, leaving the same gap intact. Fire Rate mods may close the gap slightly, but it's a band-aid solution, at best. There's no sense of balance in the Soma beyond Mastery Rank (which still doesn't make sense when comparing its peers). Right now, it's the "wait and see" approach until Armor/Damage 2.0.

Except for the fact that heavy caliber's accuracy loss really decreases somas effectiveness at high levels and does little to Continuous weapons. It's a step towards balance. Fire rate is another flat out 30% boost considering that many people view shred a necessity with beam weapons.

Also as I've said many times "wait and see" is not a viable pathway. If we had "waited to see" crit rate would determine elemental proc rate in armor 2.0. Feedback, much of it in a thread I started was a constructive and visible way to bring that issue up before it happened. The community coming together to address potential foreseeable problems BEFORE they happen is a totally legitimate and effective way to communicate with the devs and as long as it's constructive, they probably appreciate more eyes looking out for the game.

[ChaoticVice777]

Except for the fact that heavy caliber's accuracy loss really decreases somas effectiveness at high levels and does little to Continuous weapons. It's a step towards balance. Fire rate is another flat out 30% boost considering that many people view shred a necessity with beam weapons.

Also as I've said many times "wait and see" is not a viable pathway. If we had "waited to see" crit rate would determine elemental proc rate in armor 2.0. Feedback, much of it in a thread I started was a constructive and visible way to bring that issue up before it happened. The community coming together to address potential foreseeable problems BEFORE they happen is a totally legitimate and effective way to communicate with the devs and as long as it's constructive, they probably appreciate more eyes looking out for the game.

 

Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss affects the continuous rifles as well. Both the Soma and the Flux Rifle should use Shred, so moot point. I fail to see your point.

 

These threads are now legitimate, constructive, yet "pointless" communications to the developers because a new damage system is being implemented (and we barely even have a glimpse of a such a system). Based on Livestream #16, the developers are stating that every weapon will be looked over for any necessary stat changes.

Edited October 23, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[LukeAura]

Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss affects the continuous rifles as well. Both the Soma and the Flux Rifle should use Shred, so moot point. I fail to see your point.

 

These threads are now legitimate, constructive, yet "pointless" communications to the developers because a new damage system is being implemented (and we barely even have a glimpse of a such a system). Based on Livestream #16, the developers are stating that every weapon will be looked over for any necessary stat changes.

Flux Rifle only gets the boost from puncture. He wants the fire rate boost to add to its dps, which it currently doesn't. 

 

[ChaoticVice777]

Flux Rifle only gets the boost from puncture. He wants the fire rate boost to add to its dps, which it currently doesn't. 

 

 

And what's the title of this thread? Giving the fire rate boost to the continuous rifles does nothing to change the Soma's tier.

[notionphil]

Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss affects the continuous rifles as well. Both the Soma and the Flux Rifle should use Shred, so moot point. I fail to see your point.

 

These threads are now legitimate, constructive, yet "pointless" communications to the developers because a new damage system is being implemented (and we barely even have a glimpse of a such a system). Based on Livestream #16, the developers are stating that every weapon will be looked over for any necessary stat changes.

  

And what's the title of this thread? Giving the fire rate boost to the continuous rifles does nothing to change the Soma's tier.

My point is very clear. First of all, the fire rate boost from shred benefits the Soma's DPS and not the held trigger rifles. My suggestion, in red at the top of the OP was for it to also benefit held trigger rifles. How do you not understand that extending the benefit would help reduce the damage gap?

Secondly, is your position that we should not make suggestions to potentially identify balance issues before they occur? Would you rather have the community sat silent about elemental effect rate being tied to crit rate? So we could see how horribly imbalanced that made the game and beg for fixes for the next 6 months?

What exactly is your suggestion to fix these issues?

[LukeAura]

And what's the title of this thread? Giving the fire rate boost to the continuous rifles does nothing to change the Soma's tier.

Not directly. But it will add more weapons in to the level  that the Soma is. 

So that it doesn't stand out as an overpowered primary weapon, it would actually have competitors. 

If you make other weapons that are capable of competing with it, then you've effectively changed its tier without changing its tier. Without even touching the Soma.