Damage 2.0 And The Tiered Weapon System Are Reducing Weapon-Viability Choice.

[Won_Doe]

One thing that had many players hyped for Damage 2.0 is the possibility of old weapons being viable again. However, by the time U11 was nearing release, there was already a new line of weapons that did so much damage that they weren't really held back by lvl100+ enemies with high armor ratings.

 

Strun Wraith, Soma, Vectis, Brakk, Ogris, Dread, etc. For these weapons and a couple of others, armor wasn't really a problem at all. So now Damage 2.0 is in and with it, DE spoke of the end to Armor's oppressive reign. Does this mean that it's now time for older weapons to shine? Not really.

 

The Boltor/Bolto were kept in check because of their low base damage. In Damage 1.0, they had some use due to the fact that armor-ignore was extremely useful. Unfortunately, the Kunai/Hikou/Despair out-classed them horribly so no one really used them anyways. 

 

Forward to Damage 2.0, and now they're even further behind in the dust because their base damage wasn't increased to compensate.

 

About the old weapons that don't ignore armor......unless you're at a low mastery rank, why use them now? They're continuously being more and more out-classed by newer weapons. For the most part, all weapons in the game essentially function the same. That means the only way for DE to differentiate and make newly-released weps more attractive is simply by increasing numbers (boring)....

 

Everyone's been riding the Soma train since release for obvious reasons - the damage is insane and completely unmatched. Every other hitscan automatic is just inferior. It's Gorgon 2.0. Sadly, DE realized the Gorgon became obsolete and trashed it with Soma's release. Completely unjustified. Why does the Mk1-Braton exist? What about the Burston? Boltor/Bolto? Vulkar?

 

What do these weapons have in common? They were in the Gorgon's same exact position - made inferior by upgraded versions. So why haven't they been trashed like the Gorgon? They're usable for low-mastery players but still, why did the Gorgon meet its end? What message is DE trying to send here? Did they simply want it to be rare, only attainable via login reward?

 

Now that brings me to ask - what exactly was Damage 2.0's GOAL? I'll say I do love the fact that my screen isn't covered by fire/electricity/icy explosions anymore but other than that, why does Damage 2.0 exist? With all the cheat sheets being created, lots of people are now just looking for elemental combinations that have no negative damage towards any faction, which is essentially players choosing to opt out of what would've been a game of rock-paper-scissors. And what if they went along with it? So you "countered" the Infested with Heat damage, woop. Where's the satisfaction?

 

In the end, the old weapons are still left to rot and all the newly-release weapons that have been dominating since Damage 1.0 continue to dominate. The Miter was the start of what could've been a line of interesting weapons that don't function like the norm.....except, the Miter is nowhere to be seen. Now if DE did release some abnormal weapon, would DE even put in the effort to ensure that it's a viable one? Sure we got the Lecta but really now, it's basically another standard melee weapon with a whip skin. No game-changers here. Couldn't it at least be used to pull things? Something? Anything?! Brakk, Detron....hand shotguns. Hello Bronco 2.0

 

What it all comes down to is that you're left with is this:  Eventually, all players will reach high mastery ranks and be able to equip any weapon they desire (as long as they can craft it). When they reach that point in their Warframe career, they'll remember the pile of old junk weapons and never look back because right now were, living in Soma city. Sure, you can choose to use some of the weapons from your now-obsolete stash of low-mastery-rank items,  but do you really want to? Let's face it:  Players like what gets the job done, and gets it done good.

 

 

TL;DR:  Obsolete weapons are still obsolete. All players will eventually hit Mastery Rank 6 and be reduced to a small selection of viable weapons. The only thing older weapons need to compete are simple damage number increases.

 

 

 

[Aver]

i dont know, before obsolete weapons where both not doing their job and completely outclassed by the top tier guns, now its mostly just being outclassed by the top tier guns. dont get me wrong thats still wrong BUT at least you can actually take them to high level enemies and do things while before it was literally doing what 1 damage a shot?

[Won_Doe]

i dont know, before obsolete weapons where both not doing their job and completely outclassed by the top tier guns, now its mostly just being outclassed by the top tier guns. dont get me wrong thats still wrong BUT at least you can actually take them to high level enemies and do things while before it was literally doing what 1 damage a shot?

 

I don't think bringing "obsolete" weapons to high-end areas in Damage 1.0 was unheard of. It was just uncommon, one of the reasons being that they required more Forma than usual. It just doesn't feel that it's changed at all - if you still want that Braton to be able to compete, you're gonna have to Forma more than you normally would. AP mods were giving the chance for ALL non-armor-ignore weps the chance to compete in Damage 1.0. Without those mods in the previous system, all the physics impact weapons would've been king.

 

I think one of the things I really wanna emphasize with 'low-tier" weapons is this:  Sure, you can if you want to, but do you really want to? Not everyone wants to completely faceroll mobs but at the same time, no one wants to feel like what they're using could be replaced with something a lot stronger.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Won_Doe

[MetalGerbil]

its impossible to make this many weps viable. altho that is hardly a problem in a game that is easy as pie. EZ-peeze pie.

short of high wave endless defence there is no real penalty for using whatever you like, specially when you have 3 other dudes pumping out damage as well.

unless you are a min/maxer that runs to the corner to have a good cry over a 1.4% damage loss you can just use weps that have decent enough base damages for what you are fighting and you are golden.

the trick with variety is not to give everything the exact same taste but to give people the flexibility to pick what they like.

and this game is more than easy enough to let you do that.

in this game a butter knife will see you thru. specially considering that most of your power comes from mods, the weps are just a good starting base.

the biggest exception is melee weps but what would you expect in a game where most enemies have guns. and even then you can still make good use of them when you have 3 other players acting as decoys.

[Psychen]

There is an amazing variety of weapons in this game, they did a very good job with that: we got bows, snipers, burst, shotguns, whips, knuckles, flamethrowers, and even a saw-blade thrower.

 

There could be an easy fix to avoid loosing this variety. What if players could prime/ vandal'ize / wraith their weapons to make them more faction specific? 

 

For example:

Prime- Increased Puncture

Vandal- Increased Impact

Wraith- Increased Slash

 

Or maybe create a 4th one for Puncture, making prime giving better overall stats but the others maximizing in one category.

[Egg_Chen]

I'm enjoying my Gorgon again :)

 

The Tiered weapons are still a problem agreed, but I do think Damage 2.0 has brought the tiers closer together at least.

Soma is no longer the best for killing everything with it's low puncture impact damage, I might use it again now (it always felt like cheating before!).

 

Would love a full balance pass on all the weapons in the next few weeks though.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Egg_Chen

[Won_Doe]

There is an amazing variety of weapons in this game, they did a very good job with that: we got bows, snipers, burst, shotguns, whips, knuckles, flamethrowers, and even a saw-blade thrower.

 

 

From an aesthetic standpoint, yes. In terms of effectiveness? Far from it. Around the time of Miter's release, people really wanted to love the gun, but they simply couldn't because it was just that horrible. Now it's absolutely nowhere to be seen. It's also a pain to get, so no one's gonna go out of their way to get it for mastery points.

 

As for whips, I mentioned how it's really more of a skin due to the fact that it functions exactly like most other melee weapons. Obex were the latest knuckles to be released but it had its greatest surge of use at it's release. It's slowly fading away like many others.

[VKhaun]

From an aesthetic standpoint, yes. In terms of effectiveness? Far from it.

 

Bull. That was true before, and you might be able to throw some examples up there right this second a few days after the patch, but this system is MUCH better at preventing useless weapons.

 

 

 

I'm enjoying my Gorgon again :)

^

This.

 

Instead of the 'best sniper rifle' or 'the best shotgun' each weapon can have a niche now. Mixed damage types adding up to a higher total mean better performance from generic mods, lower total but a higher ammount on one damage type makes them good at one enemy type and respond well to individual damage type mods. In various combinations with crit and status chance.

 

I think there's going to be some floating negativity because people can't use their favorite weapon for EXACTLY what they want... I know I was kind of mad my Dual Vasto's were half slash damage... but overall it is an improvement and it's good we get it out there and start cleaning up old wepaons at PS4 launch instead of two years down the road and make an even bigger mess of it.

Edited November 25, 2013 by VKhaun

[Won_Doe]

Would love a full balance pass on all the weapons in the next few weeks though.

 

I honestly feel that rather than having a tiered weapon system, we should have a tiered mod system. Give all weapons the chance to be able to equally compete with each other while letting mods, and mod usage/builds determine what comes out on top.

 

Perhaps even introduce.....craftable mods?

[Calayne]

Would definitely agree that the weapons could use some damage changes. But I also agree that the old weapons have begun to come into itself, and can remain viable for a while. I think most of the people who complain about the Soma... Are the people who have the Soma.

 

True, the other weapons could be more powerful. But a Mastery rank 6 weapon is a long way off for them. It took me at least a hundred hours and a few plats just to buy enough warframe slots and weapon slots to fill it up to Rank 6. The Soma is the pen-ultimate gun for everything non-corpus.

 

And then there's his ugly twin-brother, the Gorgon. But he's a sexy old chap, and he picks up where the Soma left off: Impact damage. Modded right, he'll do just as fine. And don't forget, the Soma gets two polarity slots right off the bat.

 

I love my Burston. It's a reliable gun, and I use it very often, when I just want a general gun to run around with. I've only Forma'd him once, and he's a strong chap as well.

 

Point is, the gap is being bridged. It's unavoidable to have tiers of weapons. It's sad that some are neglected. those should be addressed. But as it is, I think that compared to before, there's a reason to go back for your old weapons, especially if you've just started out.

 

High impact damage? Puncture? Slash? Or moderate values for all?

High fire rate, low status chance? Low fire rate, high status chance? Or somewhere in between?

 

It's not perfect... But I think we're getting there. I love where we're going, certainly. But we're not there yet. This is the journey, not the destination.

[Aver]

I don't think bringing "obsolete" weapons to high-end areas in Damage 1.0 was unheard of. It was just uncommon, one of the reasons being that they required more Forma than usual. It just doesn't feel that it's changed at all - if you still want that Braton to be able to compete, you're gonna have to Forma more than you normally would. AP mods were giving the chance for ALL non-armor-ignore weps the chance to compete in Damage 1.0. Without those mods in the previous system, all the physics impact weapons would've been king.

 

I think one of the things I really wanna emphasize with 'low-tier" weapons is this:  Sure, you can if you want to, but do you really want to? Not everyone wants to completely faceroll mobs but at the same time, no one wants to feel like what they're using could be replaced with something a lot stronger.

and you are correct in that obsolete weapons needed more forma to keep up, but what im trying to say is that with damage2.0 their in a better place then they where before, not only that but DE hasnt done ANYTHING, i mean seriously? they said they where going to probably mess with this a lot before they feel it was right and its been what.. a single minor update to the new damage system and you guy are already expecting perfection? come on give them time at least

[Monoral]

TL;DR:  Obsolete weapons are still obsolete. All players will eventually hit Mastery Rank 6 and be reduced to a small selection of viable weapons. The only thing older weapons need to compete are simple damage number increases.

 

Lots of criticism. No suggestions for alternative systems.

 

What would you like? Weapons that people have to grind for being as good as MK1-Bratons? Low tier weapons should be worse than harder to get weapons. How else would it work? You said no one is going to grind bad weapons (e.g. Mitre) just for mastery so no one is going to unlock weapons that are only as good as the old ones.

 

There are only so many ways to spin projectile weapons. It's a balancing act between high tier weapons being OP for all content and players feeling like they're progressing to better equipment.

 

It is Beta after all.

[blackraver]

I love the new system. I can use any gun I want, and I have to do is take the time to mod for the faction I'm fighting, something that I enjoy doing. My viper steamrolls high level corpus. I just love it so much, and now I can run around with my latron and grakatam two of my favorite weapons, where before they were only useful at low level. People just take the time and explore the new system instead of trying to hold it up to the old benefits and getting mad.