Kahl's Missions ARE fun, but...

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

Let's be honest. Kahl's mission was fun in the New War. And the post-War missions in Kahl's camp were fun as a weekly challenge for the first like... 10, to 20, okay, 30 to 40 times.

But with constant almost weekly apperance of time-limit challenge... Treasure-hunting challenges that make you FAIL the time-limit challenge due to being hidden all over the place and sometimes looking for just one last thing may take simply too long... Or the no-death challenges paired with buggy spots that have you get stuck and die to AI when you can't even control your charater... All that and more - leading to having to replay the SAME mission at least 2, if not 3 times due to reasons out of your control... The fun evaporated over time at this point.

 

Can we please get ANOTHER source of "Stock"? Preferably... Warframe-based, not Kahl based. Please?

Edited February 12 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Zakkhar]

You really do not need to do those every week. If it is as tedious to you as to me, just do not do it. Game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. Do it when you are in a relaxed mindset.

It was made really much easier with the radar and speed increase. If you have done it 40 times I am fairly sure you already know all the typical spots you need to check. And if you do not. We'll it is not exactly game's fault. 

Moroever if you have done them on max for 40 weeks, that amounts to 40 shards, just from this. What do you need that many shards for? Do you get high on them or something? That is another unhealthy behaviour other than treating the game as a chore.

You do not really need to replay the mission for that additional 15 stock from a challenge you missed. It is not worth your time and energy.

Edited February 12 by Zakkhar

[CrownOfShadows]

I was grinding them hard at first for those juicy shards. What we need is other sources of shards not other sources of Kahl stock :) Which we kinda have with netracells now, although those have their own suite of issues...

I haven't played a Kahl mission in like maybe 4-5 months now... and probably won't until DE finally buckles down to improve it.

Kahl as a game mode by itself isn't terrible. I actually enjoyed it the first few weeks. The real problem is there is zero variety compared to warframe play: it's always the same exact mission (no tile structure), using the exact same character, using (pretty much) the exact same weapons, against the exact same enemies. There's no mod loadout to fiddle with and be interesting on either Kahl or his weapons, there's no companion either, there's not even other players to spice things up with just existing, much less being unique in their loadouts as well...

Kahl is a story of wasted potential, more than most of DE's other islands. Seeing WF through new eyes via the New War was spectacular, they should've gone the distance with it.

If they ever want to make Kahl missions mean something to the community as a fun alternative style of play, they need to implement at least 4 things imo:

1. Arsenal. It can be limited, but it needs to exist. An arsenal should've 100% been the priority over the cosmetics. Gameplay first, cosmetics second.
2. Co-op. Playing with other makes things more interesting, more dynamic, more engaging.
3. Missions that are more free-form, less hand-holding helicopter-mom go here and do exactly this exactly this particular way... less RPG style missions and more arena/battle style, like a simple exterminate with a squad of Grineer grunts would be most welcome.
4. Rewards. Add more evergreen rewards to his shop besides archon shards, and/or mission rewards: going there for exactly only one thing makes it feel like a chore.

I will say that if they are adamantly against creating co-op for these missions (which seems to be the case), they could do a lot better job with Kahl's allies. Like being able to form a squad beforehand would be a great alternative: I mean like if you could say 'I want this corpus guy and this grineer guy and this grineer guy, and this other corpus guy': my 4 allies, and I want these weapons on them. Like they should take the RJ crew customization to the next level, where you can kit out your whole custom squad, and then maybe expand Kahl's command ability a bit more. That would definitely help, and they wouldn't even need to do a full arsenal for that. Honestly if you could bring your converted Lichs & Sisters that would be great and infuse more meaning into that whole subsystem.

And of course the untapped pvp potential of grineer and corpus that we were all basically expecting after the New War dropped, but I shan't get into that.

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

7 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You really do not need to do those every week. If it is as tedious to you as to me, just do not do it. Game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. Do it when you are in a relaxed mindset.

It was made really much easier with the radar and speed increase. If you have done it 40 times I am fairly sure you already know all the typical spots you need to check. And if you do not. We'll it is not exactly game's fault. 

Moroever if you have done them on max for 40 weeks, that amounts to 40 shards, just from this. What do you need that many shards for? Do you get high on them or something? That is another unhealthy behaviour other than treating the game as a chore.

You do not really need to replay the mission for that additional 15 stock from a challenge you missed. It is not worth your time and energy.

Alright. Sure.

But then look at it this way instead:

We have a piece of content that is literally just 4 mission variations(as in 4 maps), repetitive, randomized, takes away all your gear AND out of your character, plus sometimes forces you to play multiple times a week - when you have to re-play the mission more than once a week to get all the challenges done due to bugs rather than your own failures (that's where 40+ times come from, not 40 weeks).

But also at the same time, it's a piece of content that... is one of the few rare sources of archon shards per week. And those can be build-defining for quite a few builds on many frames. And let's not forget the shard merging system too - the current (into different colors) and upcoming (multiple into one Tauforged). AND ALSO(!) let's not forget other people - those who started later or have yet to reach the whole Kahl weekly missions thing in the first place. It would take them A LOT of time to keep up too. To keep up with the farm of all that the Kahl's camp is selling aside from the weekly shards, that is...

Sooooooo.. Yes, we do need another source of farming "Stock" instead of just this mission alone. Preferably, something where we actually use our Tenno - with our warframe, weapons and the rest. NOT Kahl. It was fun in the quest, it was fun for the first few times when leveling up the camp reputation, playing through those missions for the first 4 times to do so and a few times after. But after that... Please, give us a different way of farming Stock.

[Zakkhar]

11 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Arsenal. It can be limited, but it needs to exist. An arsenal should've 100% been the priority over the cosmetics. Gameplay first, cosmetics second.

Not sure if you noticed, but there are other weapons obtainable on the map, outiside the Sniper/Archgun. Last time I had Ignis and Grinlok.

4 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

when you have to re-play the mission more than once a week to get all the challenges done due to bugs rather than your own failures (that's where 40+ times come from, not 40 weeks).

That is my point. You really do not HAVE to do anything. If you want to get additional 15 stock for that failed challenge at the expense of your time and mental energy it is entirely up to you. And it is not like you do not know what you are getting yourself into.

4 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

But also at the same time, it's a piece of content that... is one of the few rare sources of archon shards per week.

Shards are not a resource. They are a bonus. Cherry on top. Most of the frames/builds do not need any to fuction on high level and adding some will add fraction of % to performance.

4 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Sooooooo.. Yes, we do need another source of farming "Stock" instead of just this mission alone.

You can already get additional stock from the containers on the map. You get a radar that shows you those stocks (and other things). Kahl's movement is faster. There are more weapons available than just Grakata. You and those new people got plenty of improvements. I farmed those without any of that. I did not like it, so I stopped.

[Zakkhar]

4 hours ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

And those can be build-defining for quite a few builds on many frames. And let's not forget the shard merging system too - the current (into different colors) and upcoming (multiple into one Tauforged).

Could you be so kind ad name those plethora of builds that are defined by the shards? And which shards are needed? 

Spoiler

Have in mind the Youtubers who promote those builds have gotten majorty of that stuff for free from Partnership.

 

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Could you be so kind ad name those plethora of builds that are defined by the shards? And which shards are needed? 

  Reveal hidden contents

Have in mind the Youtubers who promote those builds have gotten majorty of that stuff for free from Partnership.

 

Sure. Example one: I have a Khora build that - due to how it's made - has no slots left for Flow/Primed Flow, unless I drop either Pilfering Dome OR Accumulating Whipclaw. But since I prefer to have both extra loot AND damage, I had to add 5 blue +energy shards. Otherwise her energy pool is simply too low for sustained gameplay. And even now, with 4 regular and 1 Tau blue I feel like sometimes it's not always enough (in random "oh shi~" moments with Acolytes or something) - hoping for more Tau blues to replace regular, to squeeze out a bit of extra energy for a more comfortable sustain. And no, dropping "Augur Reach" from the build would ruin survivability: with 3 Augur set mods(2 on the secondary) + Brief Respite and 45% Efficiency, I can sustain my high shields/overshields quite nicely, on top of high damage and CC via the dome/ensnare. Alternatively, can drop Primed Redirection and go for Catalyzing Shields. To be able to one-cast Whipclaw to reset that shieldgating instead. An alternative, which doesn't work without Augur Reach.

Spoiler

Example two: I have a Garuda build that replaces her 2nd with Tempest Barrage (I call it "Blood Rain" for lulz, with red energy color and all that lol). With two green shards required, it is capable of fully armor-stripping due to 14 corrosion stacks. Adding Viral Tempest augment on top also applies Viral with each hit. Seeking Talons with Blending Talons now marks enemies to get Slash procs on incoming damage AOE all around her instead of normal "aimed" frontal cast. Then just spam Barrage to armor-strip via corrosive stacks, apply Viral stacks for extra damage and have Slash stacking on top like crazy with each hit of this Viral-Corrosive barrage. For it to fully work - on top of 2 green shards, which are already a requirement - you also need at least 2 yellow shards, for that casting speed, since Garuda has really slow animations on pretty much all of her powers. Without the cast speed buff, this won't work all that well and feel utterly underwhelming, having you die a lot since you won't be casting fast enough. There is no place in this build for Natural Talent. And I'd rather use Unairu school to also be able to armor-strip Acolytes instead of having to rely on that Madurai cast-speed buff...

Spoiler

And there's more like this, if you think about it and dig through cool game mechanics enough.

Sure, in a lot of cases, archon shards are just "an extra on top". A thing that you add as an extra layer, for extra power-creep and fun. That's why on my Wisp I have 3 Tau reds and 2 regular reds, all for +STR... And once I get two more Tau reds - I'll replace those regulars too. Because it's fun to have 387% STR "out of the box"... I wanna squeeze out that extra +10% from replacing two regulars(10+10) with two Tau(15+15) to have 397%... Then +60% from Molt Augmented. Just for the fun of it, for extra fast zoomies from Motes(movement speed and fire rate), insane damage from Breach Surge sparks and a nasty Viral bonus/energy regen bonus(since my build includes Energy Nexus mod) from Nourish instead of Wisp's own 4th. Sure, it works without shards entirely just fine, but having all that extra STR is simply FUN. And in a lot of cases, archon shards are used like this. An extra layer "on top", where it's not really needed, but is simply fun to be even stronger. Like making your Mesa start constantly orange-red critting with her Peacemakers, when she can't without em - even though Mesa is already insane strong without this "feature", even with yellow crits lol. It's just simply fun. Or how I have 2 Tau Yellows, both for +45% staritng energy on my Titania, for fast missions like Exterminate. Paired with some leftover capacity and 45+45% from shards, I start with 100% energy, replacing Preparation mod(which does literally the same). In this case it's just convenience and resource/time consevation - not having to use energy pills at the start.

But "extra on top" is not always why shards are needed... Sometimes shards are "build-defining" - replacing some of the modding and boosting what's lacking on warframe, when there are no more slots left in the modding system to do it. Or instead, starting from the opposite end, adding the shards to free up the slot(like 2 yellow shards to replace Natural Talent). I just gave you two examples. I have more, but I think two is more than enough to convey my point.

 

P.s. Neither of these builds are taken from "youtubers promoting them". I shaped them all by myself, to my own gamestyle, based on info from the Wiki. I don't claim to "know it all" and I'm fairly certain I may have mistakes here and there. But all of my builds are my own. I don't use youtuber content, I use my own brain. If I sometimes fail or waste resources - it's all on me, not someone else.

Edited February 12 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

I farmed those without any of that. I did not like it, so I stopped.

"I don't have this problem, so problem does not exist and nothing should be done about it". Gotcha. Now I understand your line of thinking. Please, stop de-railing this thread.

[Zakkhar]

34 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Sure. Example one: I have a Khora build

A bit overcomplicated. Blind Rage is a waste. There is no need for power STR on Khora build  - you get additive %dmg on Whipclaw from melee mods (137-165), accumulating (35-350) and arcane 180). Unless Lycan Hunt needs it for some reason. But then you are just sacrificing Efficiency (guaranteed energy economy) for it (chance for energy economy). Primed Redirection/Aegis is plain wierd. 

I think it is Blind Rage inclusion. It destroys your energy economy and then you have to get a subsume, My whipclaw (power str equivalent of 735) with 130% efficiency costs 17,5 per cast. Yours (power  str equivalent of 834) costs 38,75. Then you have to use 1 Subsume (lycan) and 1 mod (equilibrium) to make up for it. 

I run very standart subsumeless 40% str Khora build, only poped 1 yellow for convenience to have energy on mission start for 1 ensnare+1dome+couple of whipclaws to have it going. The amount of Dome kills is enough to  provide the Energy orbs. 

34 minutes ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Example two: I have a Garuda build

I am not an expert on Garuda, but to me if majority of your damage comes from Bleed (True damage) Armor strip is completely unnecesary. 

Edited February 12 by Zakkhar

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

35 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

A bit overcomplicated. Blind Rage is a waste. There is no need for power STR on Khora build (you get%dmg on Whipclaw from melee mods, accumulating and arcane). Unless Lycan Hunt needs it for some reason. But then you are just sacrificing Effciency (guaranteed energy economy) for it (chance for energy economy). Primed Redirection/Aegis is plain wierd. 

I think it is Blind Rage inclusion. It destroys your energy economy and then you have to get a subsume, My whipclaw with 130% efficiency costs 17,5 per cast. Yours 38,75. Then you have to use 1 Subsume (lycan) and 1 mod (equilibrium) to make up for it.

I run very standart subsumeless 40% str Khora build, only poped 1 yellow for convenience to have energy on mission start for 1 ensnare+1dome+couple of whipclaws to have it going. The amount of Dome kills is enough to  provide the Energy orbs. 

It just tells me you do not run a lot of Steel Path or stay for too long. All of this is done for survivability. Because on Steel Path... there are A LOT of Eximus units, which can't be "negated" with CC alone. They will ignore and run through your dome and you won't be able to cast your Ensnare on them either, unless you drop that overguard of theirs first. And while you're doing that - even with a single Whipclaw cast - they WILL be shooting you. And on higher levels... That split-second and a half will be enough to take you down. Yes, split second to take your base shields down, then super low base shieldgate of 1,53sec, boom, you're dead. To counter that...

1) Negative efficiency via Blind Rage in this build is needed. for survivability. Augur set mods + Brief Respite for shield regen on every ability cast aka energy usage. And the more energy you use = the more shields you regen. Paired with Khora's CC and high shield in the first place(from Primed Redireciton, but that's the next point), you will almost always have overshield - to also protect you from statuses btw;

2) Primed Redirection gives you not only high shields "out of the box" for higher survivability in the first place(see point 1), but also provides you with a max possible(on Khora) shiledgating of 2.5sec whenever it DOES come down. Lower shields = lower shieldgating duration(unmodded shield gives 1.53sec). While Arcane Aegis is an extra layer of survivability as well - it literally gives you several seconds of nigh-invulerability, with the constant shield regen thing;

3) Sure, you can run 40% STR Khora with Accumulating whipclaw. All the power to you, if you're having fun and feeling like it's enough for you. No judgement here - it's a PvE game with high customization of your gameplay/game style. You do you, so to speak. But having positive STR stat simply helps to have even more damage, since STR simply affects her whipclaw damage... which is then also boosted by mods of your statstick melee. By having negative STR+Accumulating, you CAN deal insane damage - because Khora is simply strong like that, yes. But... You can do even better by having positive STR. It's once again the case of "fun", you know? Seeing millions-to-billions of red damage numbers pop on your screen is simply satisfying. While with 40% Str you just deal millions, yes. But that's not billions :P 

4) Lycath's Hunt provides you with health orbs on "melee kills" - which is always, since Whipclaw ability is considered a melee. You convert all those health orbs into energy via Equilibrium. While also always having a reliable stock of health orbs all around you for those "oh shi~" moments. Both in terms of energy AND health. So again... More survivability, even if negligeble. Still more than nothing.

35 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I am not an expert on Garuda, but to me if majority of your damage comes from Bleed (True damage) Armor strip is completely unnecesary. 

Damage comes from both bleeds(marked enemies by her 4) AND from the Corrosive-Viral(status only) rain dropping from the skies. Corrrosive deals damage to still-armored enemies, while applying corrosive stacks AND viral stacks AND slashes on every hit(due to enemies being marked). So it's not JUST from bleed due to slash. The corrosive deal significant damage before full armor strip, while fully armor-stripped can be simply hit with Garuda's own claws for slash direct damage on naked flesh(or any other melee/primary/secondary modded with slash/viral/heat direct damage). Saying "this is unnecessary" again just confirms you do not do all that many Steel Path runs, where full armor strip is simply the best way to go. Not the ONLY way to go... but best still.

 

 

AND LIKE I SAID... Perhaps you stop de-railing this thread? It's not about builds in the first place. It's not about Khora or Garuda. It's not even about shards. It's about Kahl's missions and adding another source of "Stock" that isn't Kahl's missions. Sure, primary reason for me(and many others, I'm sure) are the archon shards. But not only, as there are a few other things in the shop that require "Stock".

Edited February 12 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Because on Steel Path... there are A LOT of Eximus units, which can't be "negated" with CC alone. They will ignore and run through your dome and you won't be able to cast your Ensnare on them either, unless you drop that overguard of theirs first. And while you're doing that - even with a single Whipclaw cast - they WILL be shooting you. And on higher levels... That split-second and a half will be enough to take you down. Yes, split second to take your base shields down, then super low base shieldgate of 1,53sec, boom, you're dead. To counter that...

I dont do lvl cap but from my experience everything dies fairly fast. I ran whout Brief Respite till very latelty even. They are shoting my Pet and my other Pet most of the time. On higher level that split second is enough to trigger shield gate, once it is triggered I play safe with Operator.

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

1) Negative efficiency via Blind Rage in this build is needed. for survivability. Augur set mods + Brief Respite for shield regen on every ability cast aka energy usage. And the more energy you use = the more shields you regen. Paired with Khora's CC and high shield in the first place(from Primed Redireciton, but that's the next point), you will almost always have overshield - to also protect you from statuses btw;

I rather use more energy by spamming whipclaw more, this also makes everything die faster so I do not need all that much shield regen. 

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

2) Primed Redirection gives you not only high shields "out of the box" for higher survivability in the first place(see point 1), but also provides you with a max possible(on Khora) shiledgating of 2.5sec whenever it DOES come down. Lower shields = lower shieldgating duration(unmodded shield gives 1.53sec). While Arcane Aegis is an extra layer of survivability as well - it literally gives you several seconds of nigh-invulerability, with the constant shield regen thing;

It may work on chip dmg, but in the higher levels only out of the box higher survivability is not getting hit and shield gate. 

 

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

3) Sure, you can run 40% STR Khora with Accumulating whipclaw. All the power to you, if you're having fun and feeling like it's enough for you. No judgement here - it's a PvE game with high customization of your gameplay/game style. You do you, so to speak. But having positive STR stat simply helps to have even more damage, since STR simply affects her whipclaw damage... which is then also boosted by mods of your statstick melee. By having negative STR+Accumulating, you CAN deal insane damage - because Khora is simply strong like that, yes. But... You can do even better by having positive STR. It's once again the case of "fun", you know? Seeing millions-to-billions of red damage numbers pop on your screen is simply satisfying. While with 40% Str you just deal millions, yes. But that's not billions :P 

It actually makes you do less damage, because for the cost of your whipclaw I can do 2+. All %dmg is additive with STR. You are getting only 99 more power STR, which is 13% increase. 

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

My whipclaw (power str equivalent of 735) with 130% efficiency costs 17,5 per cast. Yours (power  str equivalent of 834) costs 38,75.

I dont know about satyisfying and bilions, but with Ceramic Dagger viral/heat/corrosive stat stick I do enough damage that all the eximus die and dont shoot me. For me function = satisfaction.

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

4) Lycath's Hunt provides you with health orbs on "melee kills" - which is always, since Whipclaw ability is considered a melee. You convert all those health orbs into energy via Equilibrium. While also always having a reliable stock of health orbs all around you for those "oh shi~" moments. Both in terms of energy AND health. So again... More survivability, even if negligeble. Still more than nothing.

How do you collect those Health Orbs if you run high shield though? I do not see any Combat Discipline, you are not Citrine or Nekros either. To do any convertion you need to be able to collect one and you can't collect one if you are not missing health (unless Citrine). Did something change?

1 hour ago, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

AND LIKE I SAID... Perhaps you stop de-railing this thread?

And like I said. I am not derailing. Your main argument is that you NEED all the shards available because, they define the builds you want to use. You named two builds that you can pack up to 5 shards each, but honestly I am not covinced about that part about build defining. Because you seem to be purposedly creating a problem within them in order justify patching it with shards.

Edited February 12 by Zakkhar

[_Kit_Kat_Cat_]

31 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

And like I said. I am not derailing. Your main argument is that you NEED all the shards available because, they define the builds you want to use. You named two builds that you can pack up to 5 shards each, but honestly I am not covinced about that part about build defining. Because you seem to be purposedly creating a problem within them in order justify patching it with shards.

Yeah. We do need all the shards available. And with how much backlash there was about the Netracells and nonsensical inclusion of melee arcanes that are regularly dropped from other mission/the book mini-boss... Yeah. People agree with this point - we need shards. Reliable ways of getting shards.

AT THE MOMENT, the only reliable source of shards every week are Archon hunt AND Kahl's shop. With gem merging - current(extra colors) and upcoming(FOUR basic shards into one Tau, unless they actually think about it and change it to at least three) - yes, we do NEED all the shards available. And locking one of the two reliable ways of getting shards behind a repetitive game-mode that is outside of the main gameplay loop, filled with lots of RNG and bugs... That is not cool. So yes, it is a problem. And that's why there have to be other ways of farming Stock, outside of Kahl missions. This is for the better of everyone - veterans who still don't have enough(again, if they keep the four basic into one Tau) AND especailly the newer players.

And no, don't even bring up Netracells runs. Because those are a gamble - sometimes you get 4 shards in 5 runs (happened to me), including Tau-forged in the mixed (literally got one today on one of the runs)... Other times you literally get ZERO in 5 runs (also happened to me). This is NOT reliable. It's a gamble. And a hot topic as of late on the forum and even in chat of the Dev-stream, if you paid attention.

 

To you it's not a problem? GOOD FOR YOU, my friend! Happy for ya! \o/ Doesn't mean it doesn't exist for everyone else though.

 

P.s. I will stop replying/quoting those build-related questions. You clearly don't know enough on build-crafting and some of the mechanics(which is fine, we've all been there and I don't claim myself to be some sort of professional either - I always consult the wiki for a LOT of stuff, all the time), plus... again, it's just off-topic and de-railing the thread away from the main point - Kahl's missions and needing another supply of the "Stock" resource that isn't Kahl's missions.

  

31 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

How do you collect those Health Orbs if you run high shield though? I do not see any Combat Discipline, you are not Citrine or Nekros either. To do any convertion you need to be able to collect one and you can't collect one if you are not missing health (unless Citrine). Did something change?

But yes... Something did change. Check Equilibrium on wiki, the Notes section.

Edited February 12 by _Kit_Kat_Cat_