Sentinel + Weapon Mod Restriction

[Stormfinnare]

Ok, just for the hell of it I will ill give a response.

 

You state that:

 

“I do not see how the Warframe universe could not possibly have some kind of technology that would let me do something as simple as equipping a mod twice.”

 

And you reference game mechanics that allows Frames to use Sci Fi like

abilities to replicate and use multiple objects apparently from thin air as a

reason why.

 

This comparison is not valid. The mechanics you mention is put in place to

simulate our Frames abilities using a power source. In this case, energy

from "blueberries". The “mod duplication” that is proposed has nothing to do

with how our Frames abilities are portrayed.

 

However, using your logic, I would propose that we can use the same fusion

cores to fuse in a mod over and over again. We do have the tech right? Why

should I not be able to use it repeatedly? Oh, and while we are at it, the team

regeneration pods we can throw on the floor, I also want to be able to use

them over and over. After all, I can zoom around in a volt frame faster than a

fart in a hurricane.

 

No, that line of argument is faulty to say the least.

 

A mod in this game is a piece of equipment in itself. That’s what they are

supposed to be viewed as. If you would argue that our DE would give us the

ability to somehow actually duplicate a mod for example in the foundry, that

would be a completely different matter.

 

You could also argue that the benefit of simplifying this game mechanic would

be so great as to actually warrant a disregard of the DEs earlier portrayal of

what a mod is, and there for enable us to use it however we like as long as

we found at least one copy of it.

 

If you would do this however, the burden of proof is on you, and no mere

“my frame can do this, why can´t I do that?” will convince anyone.

 

To finish off, I have to point out that I am not here arguing for anything. It’s

up to the proponents of this threads argument to convince me, not the other

way around. As long as I don’t hear any argument that actually convinces me

that I was in the wrong I will keep my opinion as my own.

 

Regards,

Stormfinnare

[Feam]

I think OP is coming at this with some false presuppositions.This is not a "restriction," but a natural result of the game systems. "Mod" is short for "module," meaning "component." They are physical things, even if the name or description makes it hard to imagine how it might work.

Mods are not like tech levels in strategy games: "Ah, I've discovered how to put serrations on bullets, and now all my weapons will do extra damage." A mod card represents 1 object that you can attach to 1 weapon at a time. The poster comparing them to a laser sight for a gun is spot on. (How melting two of the same thing together makes one stronger remains unclear, but there are always going to be abstract mechanics in games.)

 

This is how they have acted for at least as long as I have been playing the game. It sounds like OP interprets the current system of having your mods stay on weapons when you unequip them for different weapons as those mods being on different weapons at the same time. This is false: what we have now is just a saved loadout, and just as you can save three different mod loadouts for each weapon, these loadouts are saved when you switch weapons. Unequipped weapons have no mods on them. When you select a rifle the mods you had in it last are automatically loaded into it. There is no inherent reason to allow mods to be duplicated for your Sentinel weapon.

 

 This is a design decision, and although of course it would be possible to code the change OP wants, I highly doubt DE would even consider doing so because it would not be consistent with how the mod system works. The argument that the devs could code anything is not a strong one; they could make this game into Katamari Damacy too, but they won't, because that's not the game they want to make.

 

OP, I'm not sure why you find this so irritating. Surely by now you've been playing long enough to understand that:

 

1)This game is about grinding. That's the kind of game it is. Just like World of Warcraft, Diablo, Torchlight, etc.

 

2) Grinding is not about convenience. It IS about repetition. It would be most convenient if you just got weapons and warframes just for completing missions, but that's not going to make DE any money. If playing missions over and over and over again isn't your thing, this game isn't for you.

 

Getting that warning when trying to leave the Arsenal screen is annoying, and I don't trust the auto-resolve to do what I want. The solution to this is to have "Equipped" icons on mods in the Upgrade screen so you know not to use that mod.

I've highlighted every word regarding my first retort, in the quote above:

What I'm about to say basically means that every word in bold in that quote, is a word that I consider absolutely wrong in the context you use it.

That is, at least the point I try to make in this thread in regards to so-called-Realism.

 

1. In your first few "statements" you took the argument of realism (Which again, is not an unfair one), and brought it to its' core. I can only respond to that by saying that, unlike the normal argument of logic, common sense, and realism, claiming what mods "ARE" and what they aren't is a flaw.

The mod system isn't a natural result, and at the core of everything they aren't physical either. They never will, and no videogame will ever have a system that is truly physical and unchangable by choice, which is what you'd call a natural result. (I guess except for those silly Disney games if you want to consider those).

 

There is no "FALSE" and "TRUE" in the mod system, there is the choice of the development. They chose not to make this Katamari Damacy and that is the one and only reason this game is not it. Not because Excalibur was created and using his own intuition he chose to be a space ninja.

 

My interpertations of the current mod system is completely irrelevant. I looked at the game mechanics, I looked at the facts, and I said what I see ineffective with it and what I don't.

And once again, there is no False with the mod system. I don't get to say that and you don't. I never said that anything DE has chosen is wrong (and if I did, I apologize. Writing several thousands words at once can get confusing.), all I'm saying is that in my opinion there is a better way.

 

The meaning of wrong and right is completely in the hands of the developers. Let's hypothetically suppose that someone noticed my suggestion here and cared, then Steve would have went: "Sure why not" and just obliterated the restriction out of the game.

Then what? Did Steve perform a physical fallacy? Will the game collapse upon itself?

 

It's all choice, and everyone gets to put their own border on Realism (Sadly only very few people seem to remember where they placed that border and exactly at which areas does the border matter).

 

Lastly, about "The game is about grinding, grinding is not about convenience."

I would really like to just write the words "Black & White Universe" here and leave it alone, but that's not the kind of person I am.

 

I am also a person who tries to write logically and efficiently, but I've done that for the past few days in this thread, so I will now write a segment formed completely out of sarcasm and cynicism.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This game is now about Grinding.

To increase the grinding in this game, the Foundry is now a manual process and will not build items for you on its own (That would be unrealistic). To build a Titan Extractor for example, you must first click on the ferrite Icon 300 times and then on the blueprint 300 times. Then, the same for Polymer with 500 clicks.

After your  resources are implemented into the blueprint, you must then continuously click on it for the next 6 hours (Bonus point: People will now ALWAYS Rush! More money for the company! Grinding saves the day once again.)

 

I sure am glad this game isn't about convenience, or this brand new feature would make no sense. Convenience only ruins the grind, and therefore destroys the very essence of this game, leaving it a hollow husk of depravity.

 

This is why, to increase the grind, we are also removing all extractions from every map in the game. Those are far too convenient... finishing a mission and getting shipped out instantly with all of your rewards? Preposterous.

You must now walk, in space, between every mission and your Main Menu screen. If you quit before finishing the walk, all loot gained from the mission will be lost.

 

That is quite a grind! I bet IGN will give this game 10/10 for such high quality grinding.

 

Thank you for grinding through this obscenely large comment, you have been awarded +3 Convenience Points (Which are instantly cancelled by your conflicting 50,348,112 Grind Points.)

Have a great day!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

This was a horrible way of making my point, but I had fun with it.

 

Anyway, congratulations to us all. We've used millions of pixels trying to describe a question of preference that could be asked over one sentence and decided with a single word by someone with authority. (Damn, some sarcasm leaked past the border.)

[Cinematic_30FPS]

And you reference game mechanics that allows Frames to use Sci Fi like

abilities to replicate and use multiple objects apparently from thin air as a

reason why.

 

This comparison is not valid. The mechanics you mention is put in place to

simulate our Frames abilities using a power source. In this case, energy

from "blueberries". The “mod duplication” that is proposed has nothing to do

with how our Frames abilities are portrayed.

 

However, using your logic, I would propose that we can use the same fusion

cores to fuse in a mod over and over again. We do have the tech right? Why

should I not be able to use it repeatedly? Oh, and while we are at it, the team

regeneration pods we can throw on the floor, I also want to be able to use

them over and over. After all, I can zoom around in a volt frame faster than a

fart in a hurricane.

 

Out of the 5 examples I gave, only 3 of them had anything to do with Warframe abilities. Based on this, and the rest of your reply, it indicates to me that you misunderstood the reasons why the list is there in the first place. I put it there to illustrate two facts: (1) that Warframe has elements that could be considered unrealistic and (2) that the Warframe universe has some crazy & advanced technologies. What this implies is (1) that DE doesn't have a problem with sacrificing realism for the sake of other things and (2) that a technology could exist in the Warframe universe that lets you effectively equip a mod twice. Together, I think that it shows that the realism argument lacks merit.

 

For example, you could just say that sentinels can now make copies of mods that are made of pure energy, but only when it has a direct link to the original. And furthermore, due to the nature of the process and/or lack of understanding of how it works (making it impossible to reverse-engineer) it can only works on mods. Insert additional explainations and/or hand-waving to your satisfaction. Hell, you could even just say that the sentinel rapidly teleports the mod between the weapons, allowing it to effectively be in two places at once. You could probably come up with an explaination that fits any arbitrary set of requirements because this is a Sci-Fi game.

 

A mod in this game is a piece of equipment in itself. That’s what they are supposed to be viewed as.

 

Says who? I think that they are containers of pure concentrated unicorn and fairy dust. They are shiny after all.

 

You could also argue that the benefit of simplifying this game mechanic would

be so great as to actually warrant a disregard of the DEs earlier portrayal of

what a mod is, and there for enable us to use it however we like as long as

we found at least one copy of it.

 

It is.

 

To finish off, I have to point out that I am not here arguing for anything. It’s

up to the proponents of this threads argument to convince me, not the other

way around. As long as I don’t hear any argument that actually convinces me

that I was in the wrong I will keep my opinion as my own.

 

This thread already has plenty of posts which, in my opinion, adequetly show that the benefits of this change outway any downsides. If that has failed to convince you, than I fear that nothing will.

[Feam]

Out of the 5 examples I gave, only 3 of them had anything to do with Warframe abilities. Based on this, and the rest of your reply, it indicates to me that you misunderstood the reasons why the list is there in the first place. I put it there to illustrate two facts: (1) that Warframe has elements that could be considered unrealistic and (2) that the Warframe universe has some crazy & advanced technologies. What this implies is (1) that DE doesn't have a problem with sacrificing realism for the sake of other things and (2) that a technology could exist in the Warframe universe that lets you effectively equip a mod twice. Together, I think that it shows that the realism argument lacks merit.

...

About your two latest posts, Oboeshoes.

While I do appreciate the support and agree with most of your opinions, there's a reason I didn't go into specifics (Until my last post) in this thread.

 

We are now arguing over the semantics of reality, outside of reality.

There is no winner here, we all lose.

 

If I can't explain the (supposedly nonexistant, illusionary) boundaries of reality in videogames to posters who are fixated on examples, there's not much point in bothering.

There is nothing wrong with being fixated on certain examples of realism (I am clearly fixated on game mechanics, after all), but we're digressing from the point of this thread by going there.

 

I've made some mistakes in my explanations and reasoning throughout this thread, and they started from just around the time where I have come to a conclusion about this thread.

 

This is the least troublesome feature in Warframe that I wanted to ever discuss on the Forums. This is the one issue in the game that bothers me the least (Over my extensive playtime I've come across dozens of peculiar choices that I could bring to attention). and I've decided to make a feedback thread on it first to see how well it goes - I've deduced that it is going nowhere.

 

With the general reactions so far, I don't think that there is a valid reason for me to post any more threads about mechanics that I think could be improved, changed, or looked at from my perspective.

 

I'll keep looking through this thread and posting here when able to, because no matter how many mistakes I make, I still full heartedly believe that this change could be a positive one...

But, this just about summarizes my (probably) last attempt at the Feedback forums (Except for when things actually break down entirely and need to be noted but aren't quite bugs.)

Edited November 30, 2013 by Feam

[Naqel]

The change I am proposing is slightly different,  as it has impact on other things (The main other thing it has impact on is not having to grind for several months if you really like using both a Rifle and a Sentinel Rifle.)

 

Keeping things attractive to hunt down is one thing. Making an entire playerbase suffer and spend hours of their time managing a broken system, is another.

 

You're suggesting a band-aid to something that's not broken.

 

The fact that you can't use the same mod twice in your active loadout is not an issue.

The issue is that there exists a situation where you have to do it.

 

The solution to that issue however, has nothing to do with allowing your sentinel to equip a mod that's already in use.

 

We need a systemic change: like admitting that giving weapons to pets is a bad idea in a game that isn't based around pets, or making sentinel weapons scale off of their own set of mods(although that's a risky idea to suggest, given the already bloated redundancy within the mods system).

[Cinematic_30FPS]

You're suggesting a band-aid to something that's not broken.

 

The fact that you can't use the same mod twice in your active loadout is not an issue.

The issue is that there exists a situation where you have to do it.

 

The solution to that issue however, has nothing to do with allowing your sentinel to equip a mod that's already in use.

 

We need a systemic change: like admitting that giving weapons to pets is a bad idea in a game that isn't based around pets, or making sentinel weapons scale off of their own set of mods(although that's a risky idea to suggest, given the already bloated redundancy within the mods system).

 

I think that the reason the suggested change would be preferred is because it would be simple to implement. All of the systems are already in place and, in fact, there was a brief period after mod sharing was introduced where you could equip mods simulteneously. While I honestly like the idea of removing sentinels weapons, DE would have to answer a few questions in order to make it work. Such as "What would happen to the already existing weapons (and the mastery exp)?" and "Do sentinels get another ability in their place?" etc.

[Stormfinnare]

If I can't explain the (supposedly nonexistant, illusionary) boundaries of reality in videogames to posters who are fixated on examples, there's not much point in bothering.

There is nothing wrong with being fixated on certain examples of realism (I am clearly fixated on game mechanics, after all), but we're digressing from the point of this thread by going there.

 

 

I think we are all fixed on certain aspects in this game to some degree or other.

 

For me in general, when it comes to Scifi, its all about proportions in the

suspension of my disbelief.

 

For example, the game meachanics has to somehow make a certian ammout

of sence to me or I am less inclined to like the particular aspect of the game.

 

This is probably the main reason I am tuck in my view on this matter.

 

And it is probably also why, as I mentioned in a couple of prior posts, I probably

can live with a change of how the game works in this particular case.

 

With the general reactions so far, I don't think that there is a valid reason for me to post any more threads about mechanics that I think could be improved, changed, or looked at from my perspective.

 

I´m sorry you feel this way, I truly am.

 

Its my firm belif that its always a good idea to voice opinions and try to

come up with new thoughts and ideas about.. well, everything.

 

I often come to threads like this too just to se if there is something

I can learn. We all have our opinions, but everything is subject to

change, even the most stubborn of opinions.

 

And we all do mistakes when trying to explain things, and people often

missunderstand, unwillingly and otherwise, specially when the folk

if different views might not actually share the same language.

 

To translate ones thought might be horribly hard at times.

 

But, this just about summarizes my (probably) last attempt at the Feedback forums (Except for when things actually break down entirely and need to be noted but aren't quite bugs.)

 

I am very glad to se the words in the (whatever these are called) thingies

one do when uttering exeptions, thoughts, sidenotes and what not.

 

I hope this isnt your last feedback thread. We all need to give a voice

to the community and DE about our views. Thats the only way we will

ever learn anything.

 

Regards,

Stomfinnare

[Kyphe]

Firstly let me say that I fully support the idea that you can not go into battle with the same single mod on both your own gun and the sentinels gun.

What gets on my bloody nervs is that it does not have any indication in your UI as to what is equipped on your sentinel when you are modding your guns until you try and exit, this is a farce!

Either the devs should mark mods placed on sentinel weapons by some means like making them red outlined or putting a pic of a sentinel gun image at the bottom left of the mod card when in you are in your frames gun upgrade screen and something similar when you are in your sentinel gun mod screen.

OR

They should make it that mods placed on a sentinel no longer display at all in your normal gun mod screen and mods equipped on guns should not display in the sentinel screen, just like the old system only just segregating sentinel mods and normal gun mods.

OR

Sentinel weapons should have their own damn mods totally unique as its not like you can equip those guns on anything but a sentinel why would they share mods with normal guns?

They should not be called guns at all but sentinel projectors, pulse projector = rifle / impulse projector = pistol / beam projector = mini gun / scatter projector = shotgun / plasma projector = flamethrower / blast projector = missile / bolt projector = arrow / charge projector = sniper

you should be able to purchase them separately from any sentinel and use what ever you think is best.

[Stormfinnare]

Kyphe!

 

You make absolut sence.

 

This is also an issue I think we all here can agree on,

as things are now, people who actually use their pets

weapon might find this annoying as hells.

 

Hopefully this will get looked at, and if I where to bet,

Id put my money on a "pet weapon icon" on the

lower left.

 

Regards,

Stormfinnare

[Feam]

You're suggesting a band-aid to something that's not broken.

 

The fact that you can't use the same mod twice in your active loadout is not an issue.

The issue is that there exists a situation where you have to do it.

 

The solution to that issue however, has nothing to do with allowing your sentinel to equip a mod that's already in use.

 

We need a systemic change: like admitting that giving weapons to pets is a bad idea in a game that isn't based around pets, or making sentinel weapons scale off of their own set of mods(although that's a risky idea to suggest, given the already bloated redundancy within the mods system).

You're saying that I am putting a band-aid on something that isn't broken, but you then proceed to request that we sever the entire "arm" (To keep things fitting with the metaphor) by removing everything relating to what I consider the minor issue.

 

Heck, I like this metaphor, but I think that It's a bit more like this...

If we combine what you're asking for and what I'm asking for, this is the situation we get:

 

DE wrapped a bandage on a not-broken yet unnecessary third arm that has no injury, but also doesn't fit with the human body.

I'm trying to rip the bandage off so that we could at least use the third arm completely (Which would be pretty weird because 3 arms isn't realistic), and you want to sever it so we can have a more ordinary, basic human.

 

...and 99.9% of the Community doesn't give a damn about all of these arms and just focus on playing the game while we argue it out on the forums.

 

Metaphors are fun

Edited December 1, 2013 by Feam

[Kastoremaru]

If DE marked the cards that are installed in the Sentinel, I wouldn't care.  Just color the border of the cards in purple so I don't end up with the same card installed in my weapon and the Sentinel's.  That would make me happy.  If it is marked now, feel free to point out what I should be looking for to differentiate them from my normal cards.