Are you please with the power system?

[neKroMancer]

Because I'm not.

I chose Volt as the starter frame, expected an alternate shooting/slashing/casting my way through the game. However, energy as loot prevent me from doing so. When all frames deplete their energy, they become the same - shooting/slashing their way through the map, hoping for an energy drop.

This is my proposal.

Energy should be slowly replenish overtime up to maximum. This allow players to cast their powers multiple times but limited to recharge rate. Making a more 'caster' gameplay more viable, the skill three should be more reflective. Frames need more than 'max energy' slot but also a 'energy recharge rate' slot. Energy loot can function as a temporary energy recharge boost, like 200% base recharge.

Thank you for your patience reading my English. Comments are welcome.

1st edit.

Howabout replenishing energy with agressive action like shooting/slashing stuff? You need to deal some damage to gain energy. Trinity's powers which involving replenish health/energy/shield will be tweaked if this route is taken.

Example : The usual returning energy tied to percentage of damage you do. Hypothetically, you slash a grineer and deal 100 damage - you get 10% return in energy. While you're under Trinity's power (can't remember the name), you got more energy return, like 20% and can be increased via Trinity power upgrade.

A more indepth change could be made to reward a more risky melee playstyle, higher energy return tied to the distance between you and the target. The closer, the more energy you will get.

What do you think folks?

Edited January 4, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Ronyn]

Certainly the powers don't get used enough particularly in the begining.

This needs to be adjusted.

Frames like volt and ember should be able to use there spells more often.

Energy regen and even gaining energy from hitting nd shooting things would work.

Abilities like super jump shouldnt be so weak at the beginng only to let you launch across the levels in the end.

make it good and high early on then let us increase how often we use it as the game progresses.

rhino skin needs to be on more often so we are very much the tough guy we mean to be.

The powers doa great job of making the classes awesome we just spend too much time without them.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ronyn

[Showtaro]

I think the power system is fine, this is a grinding game all about finding parts and leveling up. The only thing I would change like I said before is how much energy it takes.

[Bang_Doll]

I like all frames should be centered around combat that includes melee and guns. For that reason I think energy replenishment should be centered around high-energy combat. However, I don't necessarily think that loot-based energy replenishment is the best.

I just don't see the concept of idling behind cover waiting for your energy bar to reach a certain tick on the gauge as meshing well with the spirit of Warframe. I definitely think warframes can have a lot of diversity (and be caster-esque) while still forcing players to commit to combat.

I am strictly against time-based energy replenishment, and for accomplishment-based energy replenishment. There's a lot of wriggle room in that, for example, Trinity's healing powers (health and energy replenishment) are based around hitting a target. Now, I'm not sure if hitting the target with an ability counts, but I think that could work well with a player who has committed to the "caster" archetype. Just so long as that "caster" has to commit to combat and put his face at risk of getting pushed in by a hail of melty death pellets. I'm not against it being viable for a player to do nothing to but use abilities, necessarily, just for the love of god don't make it work by slowing down the combat.

I think I just said the exact same thing four times over using different words. *face palm*

[Aivor]

I would like to the power replenishes, it would be a more "fluid" gameplay and the thing that i have to pay 20 platiunium for a great ability it just aint right

[neKroMancer]

I think the time-based energy replenishment will force players to manage a balance between casting and shooting/slashing. I strongly support a more diversified gameplay. Some frames like Volt and Ember are more caster oriented and without any power to cast, they lost their beauty.

Recharge energy overtime will ensure that players will have to shooting/melee while recharging their energy so they'll have a fair share of bullets. The idea of hiding behind cover and periodically cast power to kill the enemies is 'Mass Effect-ish'. While it works pretty well with a fast paced gameplay, I want something different for Warframe. Rechargeable energy allow player to accumulate and perform combo like Volt's speed + overload more often.

Lootable energy, the current system, rewards a melee fighting style but gives a mild disadvantage for people who enjoy killing enemies from afar with space magic.

[Ronyn]

I like all frames should be centered around combat that includes melee and guns. For that reason I think energy replenishment should be centered around high-energy combat. However, I don't necessarily think that loot-based energy replenishment is the best.

I just don't see the concept of idling behind cover waiting for your energy bar to reach a certain tick on the gauge as meshing well with the spirit of Warframe. I definitely think warframes can have a lot of diversity (and be caster-esque) while still forcing players to commit to combat.

I am strictly against time-based energy replenishment, and for accomplishment-based energy replenishment. There's a lot of wriggle room in that, for example, Trinity's healing powers (health and energy replenishment) are based around hitting a target. Now, I'm not sure if hitting the target with an ability counts, but I think that could work well with a player who has committed to the "caster" archetype. Just so long as that "caster" has to commit to combat and put his face at risk of getting pushed in by a hail of melty death pellets. I'm not against it being viable for a player to do nothing to but use abilities, necessarily, just for the love of god don't make it work by slowing down the combat.

I think I just said the exact same thing four times over using different words. *face palm*

LOL. I see your point.

Getting something for doing something is the most elegant answer.

Though I think that if someone wants to play one of the more mage like frames with a higher percentage of casting than I happen to they should be able to with certaion mods and such.

I think the time-based energy replenishment will force players to manage a balance between casting and shooting/slashing. I strongly support a more diversified gameplay. Some frames like Volt and Ember are more caster oriented and without any power to cast, they lost their beauty.

Recharge energy overtime will ensure that players will have to shooting/melee while recharging their energy so they'll have a fair share of bullets. The idea of hiding behind cover and periodically cast power to kill the enemies is 'Mass Effect-ish'. While it works pretty well with a fast paced gameplay, I want something different for Warframe. Rechargeable energy allow player to accumulate and perform combo like Volt's speed + overload more often.

Actually recharge over time can be helpful and people certainly have the option of shooting/slashing while waiting for it to come back but it can also result in folks hiding until their energy bar replenishes.

It doesnt "ensure" that peopel keep fighting while they wait at all.

Lootable energy, the current system, rewards a melee fighting style but gives a mild disadvantage for people who enjoy killing enemies from afar with space magic.

This is true. The lootable version doesnt reward hanging back.

What if the energy was just given to you automatically from the kills?

That way people who keep fighting while their energy is low get it faster but since you dont have to go pick it up it wont matter what range you are fighting at. I believe this acheives the goal youre after.

[WhiteFang]

I agree with th OP this needs to be changed...

[neKroMancer]

This is true. The lootable version doesnt reward hanging back.

What if the energy was just given to you automatically from the kills?

That way people who keep fighting while their energy is low get it faster but since you dont have to go pick it up it wont matter what range you are fighting at. I believe this acheives the goal youre after.

Then Trinity's power wil be pointless since they're centered around replenish shield/health/energy to teammates.

In a 4 players squad, the one who hang back and wait for energy to recharge will be left behind. It's not going to be fun for that particular player since everyone will kill/loot everything before him. I can see a hanging back play in a solo match but that's hardly the point since you play what you want in solo.

[Ronyn]

Then Trinity's power wil be pointless since they're centered around replenish shield/health/energy to teammates.

Ah good point.

Then we will have to consider a system where "effective use" of weapons and skills grants energy.

That way the trinity gets energy even from healing effectively while the more damage focused guys get energy from fighting.

In a 4 players squad, the one who hang back and wait for energy to recharge will be left behind. It's not going to be fun for that particular player since everyone will kill/loot everything before him.

Staying behind the group, not engaging the enemy doesnt have to mean staying in a previous room.

Some folks will stay back just enough to not have to fight but still be around for rewards.

A system that allows a person to do nothing and gain energy will get some people doing nothing until they gain energy.

On the flip side, the better players who are cutting a swath through the enemy dont get rewarded by being able to use their powers more often like the loot, attacking and effective use" versions do.

I can see a hanging back play in a solo match but that's hardly the point since you play what you want in solo.

Solo is a different beast.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ronyn

[neKroMancer]

Edit the original post to reflect the discussion, see above.

[makaizer]

Have to agree with the op, going solo as a volt gives lots of disdvantage solely on not being able to "perform"as a caster. And most of my time playing with slashers , doing it up close makes them often if not always the one getting the energy drops. And because of that I kept holding back whenever i wanted to cast something, worrying that i might not have any when i need it the most. Ie surrounded or a heavy is present. They can at least make it drop alot more often :(

[Phurl]

How about this: Every dead enemy drops energy orbs, which are about 1/10th the size of our current orbs and give back only about 5 energy per orb.

Then, each warframe gets a new stat that adds % bonuses to energy harnessed. Trinity and Ember and Volt, being the "caster" type frames (I think?), would have a higher base value than Rhino and Ash and "physical" type frames. This new stat can also be boosted with mods.

So an un-upgraded Rhino would get 5 energy per kill, while a Trinity with extra mods would get up to 10 or even 15 energy per kill, plus an ability to double energy gain from kills for all team members. Or maybe swap that with an ability to turn all energy orbs into energy+health orbs.

These numbers can be modified, of course, it's just an example.

And as was mentioned by a mod elsewhere, energy orbs will likely be patched soon so that all team members can pick up the same energy orb.

[xDaitenshi]

I'm really unhappy with energy atm. Im unhappy with the skill trees too but i'll complain about that in a nother thread.

As I see it, it should be a combonation of the above. So hear me out:

For "Caster Frames" Energy should have a small base recharge. Saaay it replenishes X energy every second. Then, there should still be energy orbs that can be picked up to make it jump Y energy. Still encouraging players to kill things for energy but not discouraging the situation where "oh crap I need this energy to kill whats in this room" So you can try and survive for awhile for it to slowly regenerate. When you're in down-time between fights you can get somthing back vefore the next one.

I think Non caster Frames should have a different system Akin to adreneline. This slowly goes down over time when not engaged in combat and goes up when Damaged (by a small precent) When the player does damage to enemies (by a small precent) and killing enemies (by a larger precent). There should be pickups for this that increase it by a Medium precent and prevent it from "Decharging" for a certain amount of time.

My reasons for this is really simple. It prevents competition for orbs from frames that need it to player properly and those that are less energy focused. Plus it lets Players use their powers more. Which is the biggest draw to seperate frames.

[Ronyn]

How about this: Every dead enemy drops energy orbs, which are about 1/10th the size of our current orbs and give back only about 5 energy per orb.

Then, each warframe gets a new stat that adds % bonuses to energy harnessed. Trinity and Ember and Volt, being the "caster" type frames (I think?), would have a higher base value than Rhino and Ash and "physical" type frames. This new stat can also be boosted with mods.

So an un-upgraded Rhino would get 5 energy per kill, while a Trinity with extra mods would get up to 10 or even 15 energy per kill, plus an ability to double energy gain from kills for all team members. Or maybe swap that with an ability to turn all energy orbs into energy+health orbs.

These numbers can be modified, of course, it's just an example.

And as was mentioned by a mod elsewhere, energy orbs will likely be patched soon so that all team members can pick up the same energy orb.

rebalancing energy gain from enemies by making it smaller but consistant has a lot of merit.

However it still doesnt solve the problem with long ranged attackers not getting the orbs.

This is why I say we dump the "lootable orbs" concept and just go with a direct gain for action system.

I kill the enmy and I get some energy back..no need to go pick up an orb.

[neKroMancer]

I agree with Ronyn that 'downsize' the orb won't work and won't solve the caster problem. The mentioned Rhino probably going to furiously rush to get all those little orbs to cast his defensive buff in the next fight. The casters still left with nothing.

@xDaitenshi : it's a nice idea, separating caster system from shooter/slasher. However, the coding require for such method might be more than DE can chew. Ronyn method is better, in term of time/money invested into this game by DE, since it's just Trinity's vampire ability for everyone, in a smaller scale.

[xDaitenshi]

I agree with Ronyn that 'downsize' the orb won't work and won't solve the caster problem. The mentioned Rhino probably going to furiously rush to get all those little orbs to cast his defensive buff in the next fight. The casters still left with nothing.

@xDaitenshi : it's a nice idea, separating caster system from shooter/slasher. However, the coding require for such method might be more than DE can chew. Ronyn method is better, in term of time/money invested into this game by DE, since it's just Trinity's vampire ability for everyone, in a smaller scale.

Well of course anything suggested will take time to code. And it's not exactly like Trinity's Vamp ability. Needless to say if we're talking about rebalancing the game to make it feel right it will always take time and resources. Better it be done now than when the game is live. From what i know of coding its pretty much exactly the same thing as energy just backwards. Wont be miserable to code. For the extra adreneline orbs its a matter of changing what stat it effects and the color of the orb.

Edited January 4, 2013 by xDaitenshi

[FreestyleZ]

I totally agree. Picking up orbs just don't cut it. They just destroy the use of Ember and Volt. Having it replenish over time would be great.

[B1gB4ddy]

Though I find energy regen by default a big no-no, I do agree with regen for kills. What should happen is a Warframe Mod (or weapon mods) that will regenerate energy based on damage that you deal. Though I am perfectly fine with the energy the way it is (Because the characters are already nearly indestructible), I think making a rare warframe/weapon mod would work better for this idea.

[Ronyn]

Though I find energy regen by default a big no-no, I do agree with regen for kills. What should happen is a Warframe Mod (or weapon mods) that will regenerate energy based on damage that you deal. Though I am perfectly fine with the energy the way it is (Because the characters are already nearly indestructible), I think making a rare warframe/weapon mod would work better for this idea.

The only issue with making it a rare mod is how it lack of energy negatively affects the early game.

early game being before we are indestructable and before have had a chance to collect many mods let alone rare ones.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ronyn

[neKroMancer]

Though I find energy regen by default a big no-no, I do agree with regen for kills. What should happen is a Warframe Mod (or weapon mods) that will regenerate energy based on damage that you deal. Though I am perfectly fine with the energy the way it is (Because the characters are already nearly indestructible), I think making a rare warframe/weapon mod would work better for this idea.

Sounds like old Diablo2 pattern, it's a good solution which gives players 'end game' edge in combat.

To make this work, Ithink we need.

1. These 'energy drain' mod to be available at low level with low percentage of drain.

2. lower the cost of ability at low level. ie. Volt's shock should cost less at lv1, thus allow player a chance to make some use out of the mod. This may leads to some powers got nerfed.

it's doable and give player some room for customization - however, these mod wil be sought after.

[GenericBadGuy]

I wholeheartedly agree that the current energy system needs to be changed. I was excited at the idea of a supportive Warframe in Trinity but I realize now its just not really possible wih the current system.

I do not see what the issue with a "recharging" system would be, considering it even opens up more skill and mod options to alter it.

If players can use their powers more it would make the gameplay a lot more enjoyable and hectic. As it is right now its like a rare item or weapon you have with limited ammo - you save it up since you don't know when you'll really need it. I think this is hurting the gameplay, and especially making Trinity's abilities null.

Naturally the skill system might have to change with it, but I also think thats a good thing. (After all if energy did recharge then a lot of the higher-tier skills would be overpowered).

[Phurl]

rebalancing energy gain from enemies by making it smaller but consistant has a lot of merit.

However it still doesnt solve the problem with long ranged attackers not getting the orbs.

This is why I say we dump the "lootable orbs" concept and just go with a direct gain for action system.

I kill the enmy and I get some energy back..no need to go pick up an orb.

The downside to this, though, is that the players who deal the most damage get the most energy in return.

For example, let's say a Rhino and an Ember walk into a Grineer bar. The Rhino charges in and slaughters 9/10s of them and the Ember picks off the last 1/10th. Going into the next battle, the Rhino would have 9 times the energy that the Ember has.

Honestly I'm against the orb idea because it breaks immersion/doesn't make much sense and I'm against recharging/cooldown because it encourages players to sit back and stop playing. There's a solution here somewhere...

[xDaitenshi]

The downside to this, though, is that the players who deal the most damage get the most energy in return.

For example, let's say a Rhino and an Ember walk into a Grineer bar. The Rhino charges in and slaughters 9/10s of them and the Ember picks off the last 1/10th. Going into the next battle, the Rhino would have 9 times the energy that the Ember has.

Honestly I'm against the orb idea because it breaks immersion/doesn't make much sense and I'm against recharging/cooldown because it encourages players to sit back and stop playing. There's a solution here somewhere...

Which is why i suggested the one I did. The only reason somone said it was bad was "time limitations" and quite frankly that's silly considering it may be a solution to out woes.

I'm really unhappy with energy atm. Im unhappy with the skill trees too but i'll complain about that in a nother thread.

As I see it, it should be a combonation of the above. So hear me out:

For "Caster Frames" Energy should have a small base recharge. Saaay it replenishes X energy every second. Then, there should still be energy orbs that can be picked up to make it jump Y energy. Still encouraging players to kill things for energy but not discouraging the situation where "oh crap I need this energy to kill whats in this room" So you can try and survive for awhile for it to slowly regenerate. When you're in down-time between fights you can get somthing back vefore the next one.

I think Non caster Frames should have a different system Akin to adreneline. This slowly goes down over time when not engaged in combat and goes up when Damaged (by a small precent) When the player does damage to enemies (by a small precent) and killing enemies (by a larger precent). There should be pickups for this that increase it by a Medium precent and prevent it from "Decharging" for a certain amount of time.

My reasons for this is really simple. It prevents competition for orbs from frames that need it to play properly and those that are less energy focused. Plus it lets Players use their powers more. Which is the biggest draw to seperate frames.

Edited January 5, 2013 by xDaitenshi

[TheSyv]

I personally think the energy is fine the way it is, maybe some of the utility abilities could cost less but for example I play ash and after you upgrade your max power I can throw my single target nuke about 8 times in a row (they do about 500-1000 dmg) and generally I find energy so fast I am at max power again in a few rooms. Power are suppose to be used to get out of sticky situations not spammed through the whole stage. sometimes I can even get 2 bladestorms off in one room and be back at max before i leave that very same room.

and for team play most the time my friends and I use our powers just because there is to much energy lieing around we literaly have to burn energy just to pick it up.