Brakk Nerf Megathread - Post Your Thoughts!

[Novocrane]

hell i can spit that far and probably do more damage.

Never spit into the wind, and never spit without taking off your frame helmet first. :P

[Nnazqul]

10-15m before dropoff is too harsh

for ANY gun

That is something I can agree with.It's not exacly how I would fix the Brakk and I hope it actualy does get revised sometime soon.

[RedDirtTrooper]

"brokenly rediculous" to a puff shooter, all it does it "pfft!~ pfft!~ pfft!~ pfft!~ pfft!~" "reloading!" In tier 3's its broken, because on pluto, you dont want anything getting 10 meters to you, especially a ancient disruptor. make it 30 then yeh, ill be happy, but seriously? 10 to 20 meters? thats like all up in your face point blank, hell i can spit that far and probably do more damage.

 

It's just how you have to balance shotguns if you still want to allow them to do high damage. They either have to add fall off, massive spread, or reduce damage. Frankly, if you add enough spread to not need fall off, they are still useless beyond point blank range. The other option is to take another similar gun that shoots a bullet, and divide the damage by the number of pellets on your shotgun, which leaves it with no advantage over just using the single round gun.

 

I'm not saying the fall off range couldn't have been a little more generous, but no matter what range they set it at people were going to complain, just like they did when they added fall off to the Hek.

[Zerogodlike]

Once again Unless You have the brakk you should have no say in what happens to it thats the problem with warframe to much jealously going on. and DE doesn't know how to balance you could get a 2 year old and they could balance the game better lol.

[GhostUnitVII]

Never spit into the wind, and never spit without taking off your frame helmet first. :P

sorry, ive carved a hole in my helmet, so i can eat, sleep, breath in my warframe suit :D

[Nnazqul]

Once again Unless You have the brakk you should have no say in what happens to it thats the problem with warframe to much jealously going on. and DE doesn't know how to balance you could get a 2 year old and they could balance the game better lol.

Is dat so..

We got a software engineering hotshot over here.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Nnazqul

[BigBadHunkyDaddy]

Once again Unless You have the brakk you should have no say in what happens to it thats the problem with warframe to much jealously going on. and DE doesn't know how to balance you could get a 2 year old and they could balance the game better lol.

You don't have to be a director to be able to write critique of a movie. 

[413X]

You don't have to be a director to be able to write critique of a movie. 

 

Not quite sure if that's the same thing. Usually, you're writing about your response to the movie, which is perfectly fine.

 

I guess that it's perfectly fine to talk about your emotional and physical response to people using the Brakk, so long as you make sure that you keep it to a mere description of your feelings without saying "the weapon is OP, please nerf it."

 

Kind of like if a beginner player had entered a pickup game with a veteran that had a fully customised Seer and who's able to use it well enough to blow apart high level enemies. He's probably not gonna be aware that the gun's projectile travel time really complicates making shots hit, since the pro makes it seem effortless. He's also not likely to notice the lousy reload time, which is helped a little by mods but is still a royal pain. He's probably going to see it as a wonder cannon if he hasn't operated the damn thing. I know because I read the stats on the wiki with the caution about fire rate and projectile time and said, "Meh, I can live with that and the lack of crit chance, because this Seer is awesome." until I actually built it and fired it and maxed ranked it. Then I sold the damn thing immediately after.

 

Granted, in the case of the Brakk, it actually is was a lot easier to use than the Seer. Just saying that in some situations, looks can be deceiving and you may need hands on experience to understand the situation fully. 

Edited December 10, 2013 by 413X

[BigBadHunkyDaddy]

Not quite sure if that's the same thing. Usually, you're writing about your response to the movie, which is perfectly fine.

 

I guess that it's perfectly fine to talk about your emotional and physical response to people using the Brakk, so long as you make sure that you keep it to a mere description of your feelings without saying "the weapon is OP, please nerf it."

 

It has nothing to do with emotional and physical response. You know the stats of the weapons, you know how they work, you know what they can do, you have videos, you have players' experience.

I knew how good Soma was even before I got it. Or Swraith. Or Hek before the damage fall off was introduced. 

 

Don't bring emotions into it. 

 

Acrid was OP in damage 1.0. I didn't have to have it to know that. It's math.

[InFlames]

Add damage falloff to the regular snipetron :)

but brakk needed those changes, its still vewy op comparing to old snipetron and and well more then 80% of the weapons so....

Could have been worse :p

[10Inches]

Add damage falloff to the regular snipetron :)

but brakk needed those changes, its still vewy op comparing to old snipetron and and well more then 80% of the weapons so....

Could have been worse :p

May I ask why you are comparing a sniper rifle with a pocket shotgun?

Sure many people say it was a pocket sniper due to its accuracy and relatively low spread. But at range where snipers operate best, the brakk can hardly deal 20% of total damage per shot.

If you give the brakk pre-nerf, I doubt it's usage at range. However, the gun performed well at mid range, 15-35m. Its performance meant that most midrange weapons, I.e. your average rifle could not hope to compete within that range.

However the nerf has limited the gun to very short range combat, with damage next to nothing at midrange. Personally I think it's just too cruel for the gun. You can't expect to run around at high levels poking things in their faces with the brakk unless you're a rhino.... The enemies just deal way too much damage.

For now I can only do the gun justice by running around with iron skin on, but other than that, I just might have to dust off my soma so I can deal sizable damage reliably again.

[yggdrazzle]

It's just how you have to balance shotguns if you still want to allow them to do high damage. They either have to add fall off, massive spread, or reduce damage. Frankly, if you add enough spread to not need fall off, they are still useless beyond point blank range. The other option is to take another similar gun that shoots a bullet, and divide the damage by the number of pellets on your shotgun, which leaves it with no advantage over just using the single round gun.

 

I'm not saying the fall off range couldn't have been a little more generous, but no matter what range they set it at people were going to complain, just like they did when they added fall off to the Hek.

 

Exactly, it already had quite a bit of spread, now they added more spread which is fine (if you hit a target long range with 1 pellet, that is already 1/7th damage). Falloff makes the range at which it can do anything exponentially smaller. When you're already only doing 1/7th of your weapon damage, is there even a need to reduce that by an additional dimension? And 10m... falloff damage at spitting distance? seriously wtf were they thinking.

Edited December 10, 2013 by yggdrazzle

[RedDirtTrooper]

Exactly, it already had quite a bit of spread, now they added more spread which is fine (if you hit a target long range with 1 pellet, that is already 1/7th damage). Falloff makes the range at which it can do anything exponentially smaller. When you're already only doing 1/7th of your weapon damage, is there even a need to reduce that by an additional dimension? And 10m... falloff damage at spitting distance? seriously wtf were they thinking.

Eh, they may have gone overboard with the fall off and the change to impact damage was probably poorly thought out, but its effectiveness at medium range was definitely way out of line for how much damage it was doing. I'm in no way arguing that the nerf wasn't extreme, just that the people saying "it didn't need a nerf" are being willfully blind.

[InFlames]

im surprised that u could not smell the irony in my post comparing brakk to old snipetron.

Im just saying that snipetron is garbage and needs a total rework/revamp. But the nerf was needed and it is still op vs average weapon.

May I ask why you are comparing a sniper rifle with a pocket shotgun?

Sure many people say it was a pocket sniper due to its accuracy and relatively low spread. But at range where snipers operate best, the brakk can hardly deal 20% of total damage per shot.

If you give the brakk pre-nerf, I doubt it's usage at range. However, the gun performed well at mid range, 15-35m. Its performance meant that most midrange weapons, I.e. your average rifle could not hope to compete within that range.

However the nerf has limited the gun to very short range combat, with damage next to nothing at midrange. Personally I think it's just too cruel for the gun. You can't expect to run around at high levels poking things in their faces with the brakk unless you're a rhino.... The enemies just deal way too much damage.

For now I can only do the gun justice by running around with iron skin on, but other than that, I just might have to dust off my soma so I can deal sizable damage reliably again.

However the nerf has limited the gun to very short range combat, with damage next to nothing at midrange. Personally I think it's just too cruel for the gun. You can't expect to run around at high levels poking things in their faces with the brakk unless you're a rhino.... The enemies just deal way too much damage.

For now I can only do the gun justice by running around with iron skin on, but other than that, I just might have to dust off my soma so I can deal sizable damage reliably again.

[413X]

It has nothing to do with emotional and physical response. You know the stats of the weapons, you know how they work, you know what they can do, you have videos, you have players' experience.

I knew how good Soma was even before I got it. Or Swraith. Or Hek before the damage fall off was introduced. 

 

Don't bring emotions into it. 

 

Acrid was OP in damage 1.0. I didn't have to have it to know that. It's math.

 

Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or that you genuinely failed to understand my point about your comment on "movie critiques" being made by non-directors.

 

I gave a perfectly good example where such an attitude is flawed. Certain weapons have high damage stats that look great on paper, but whose quirks take getting used to (if ever) before you can hit consistently enough to do that kind of amazing damage.

 

To top it off,in damage 1.0 the soma may look great in math alone, but most people agreed that bringing it to (pre-damage 1.0) firefights against really high level mobs ended up consuming too much ammo, that it was better to bring armour-ignore weapons still for late, late-game. Arguably, you could have "mathed it out**" but people who owned the gun and brought it to all sorts of situations would have also been quickly (and more clearly) made aware of the gun's limitations.

 

Then again, considering that you responded to my post by quoting only the front half without the supporting analogy, and also the final disclaimer at the end, it's possible you just skimmed and made a snap reply without taking the time to think it through.

 

**Mathing out damage efficiency in warframe = as I said, possible, but also kind of a blurred picture considering limitations and quirks such as Ogris blast splash damage not applying properly to all units caught in the blast in damage 1.0 (that problem may still persist in damage 2.0, not sure). Or the range limitations on flux rifle and synapse (plus volt shield exploit for increasing range). Owning a weapon and firing it in various use scenarios is still the best way to get to know the weapon. Nothing beats hands-on experience, and even the bugs and quirks such as Vauban Vortex allowing Ignis to apply damage simultaneously to every body part (which has been fixed) were only discovered by players actually using the weapon, not through "crunching the numbers".

[Nnazqul]

Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or that you genuinely failed to understand my point about your comment on "movie critiques" being made by non-directors.

 

I gave a perfectly good example where such an attitude is flawed. Certain weapons have high damage stats that look great on paper, but whose quirks take getting used to (if ever) before you can hit consistently enough to do that kind of amazing damage.

 

To top it off,in damage 1.0 the soma may look great in math alone, but most people agreed that bringing it to (pre-damage 1.0) firefights against really high level mobs ended up consuming too much ammo, that it was better to bring armour-ignore weapons still for late, late-game. Arguably, you could have "mathed it out**" but people who owned the gun and brought it to all sorts of situations would have also been quickly (and more clearly) made aware of the gun's limitations.

 

Then again, considering that you responded to my post by quoting only the front half without the supporting analogy, and also the final disclaimer at the end, it's possible you just skimmed and made a snap reply without taking the time to think it through.

 

**Mathing out damage efficiency in warframe = as I said, possible, but also kind of a blurred picture considering limitations and quirks such as Ogris blast splash damage not applying properly to all units caught in the blast in damage 1.0 (that problem may still persist in damage 2.0, not sure). Or the range limitations on flux rifle and synapse (plus volt shield exploit for increasing range). Owning a weapon and firing it in various use scenarios is still the best way to get to know the weapon. Nothing beats hands-on experience, and even the bugs and quirks such as Vauban Vortex allowing Ignis to apply damage simultaneously to every body part (which has been fixed) were only discovered by players actually using the weapon, not through "crunching the numbers".

There was no need to insult him because he disagreed with you.That was uncalled for given that the point you're trying to make is stupid. 1 Page of irrelevant garbage.

Enough of this , you don't need to own a weapon hands on to know it's  good or overpowered.Expecialy when there's so much information and media on it.You don't need to familiarise yourself with the weapon to the ultimate level of ''intimacy'' to know it's overpowered.Even if it's possible without hands on experience.

[413X]

There was no need to insult him because he disagreed with you.That was uncalled for given that the point you're trying to make is stupid. 1 Page of irrelevant garbage.

Enough of this , you don't need to own a weapon hands on to know it's  good or overpowered.Expecialy when there's so much information and media on it.You don't need to familiarise yourself with the weapon to the ultimate level of ''intimacy'' to know it's overpowered.Even if it's possible without hands on experience.

 

First off, is the pot calling the kettle black? And in this case, am I supposed to be the kettle? How is what I said supposed to be a personal attack (I simply pointed out that his rebuttal did not actually, in any way, rebutt the point I had made, and I was unsure if he was deliberately misrepresenting the issue, or if it was a genuine misunderstanding, perhaps caused by only skimming through my post).

 

On the other hand, saying "your argument is stupid" without actually stating how the examples that were given are flawed. Hmm... that does seem a bit, crude.

 

If you actually bothered to read and understand the "page" of "irrelevant garbage" you would see that it is not "irrelevant" or "garbage" and effectively refuted his argument about understanding weapon effectiveness through math alone.

Edited December 11, 2013 by 413X

[Cwierz]

No piece of exclusive content should be able to trivialize all similar content. Period.

 

Also, saying "you don't own it so you can't say anything" is the equivalent of saying that somebody who has never broken a bone knows what pain feels like. If it is a copy/paste of another similar thing/idea, it is within our scope of knowledge. The only time this argument can apply is when things are selective or exclusive. 

 

I have used a bronco before, It has the same "feel" or whatever it is that it called right now, and the only difference is that the brakk was a statistical upgrade that did better in all categories with no drawbacks, while pushing it past the tipping point of numeric balance between the other weapon categories.

 

 

Also, the amount of "you are just jealous" in this thread is to damn high. It is literally the most basic, primitive, impulsive statement I have seen regarding the brakk, which is saying something. If you want to disprove that it is overpowered start by refuting the posts that stated why it was, don't just attack the person.

[413X]

 

Also, saying "you don't own it so you can't say anything" is the equivalent of saying that somebody who has never broken a bone knows what pain feels like. If it is a copy/paste of another similar thing/idea, it is within our scope of knowledge. The only time this argument can apply is when things are selective or exclusive. 

 

I have used a bronco before, It has the same "feel" or whatever it is that it called right now, and the only difference is that the brakk was a statistical upgrade that did better in all categories with no drawbacks, while pushing it past the tipping point of numeric balance between the other weapon categories.

 

 

Partial agreement on this. It's good that you added the caveat for outlier weapons ("when things are selective or exclusive") that behave differently from all other weapons, but I still think you're trivialising player experience a little too much in terms of assessing weapon effectiveness.

 

This may be because you're overlooking the fact that you also have extensive experience with the game itself and the way its enemies react and how they move and attack. Someone who has never played Warframe before but mainly shooters where large open areas are predominant and sniper battles are a major element may find having 25 meter range limit on the Flux and Synapse insane, but Warframe players know that this adequately provides for the normal combat circumstances in which players find themselves. In short, the players also have and rely on a knowledge of the use-case scenarios in which those statistics and numbers will be applied.

 

Granted that's a rather extreme example, but then take for instance your own statement, in which you made a comparison between the Brakk and the Bronco, which are conceptually similar weapons (shotgun type).

 

Now, I am not saying that that was an invalid observation**. However, I think there should be care taken when deciding just how "similar" some weapons need to be before you can say that the experience of firing one is sufficiently equivalent to firing the other.

 

For instance:

 

The Vektis and the Lanka are both sniper rifles. The Vektis has only 1 bullet in its mag. The Lanka has 10 but needs to be fully charged for each shot. Disregarding the additional time for reloading the Lanka after the magazine has been emptied, the difference between stopping to reload between each shot and charging up each shot is quite tactically significant. You are exposed while charging that Lanka shot, or if running with it pre-charged, your mobility is more restricted (no zorencoptering, evasive rolls, etc). With Vektis, you just fire the bullet. The reloading after each shot takes time too, but your mobility is less restricted.

 

 

**I think it's true that both weapons have a similar operating concept, but whether recoil, shot spread and trigger speed are just statistical differences or also part of the "feel" of a weapon is something I'd debate. I've had more fun levelling burst-fire sicarus than Lex even though both are pistols. Or to compare apples with apples, I actually liked 3-shot burst Sicarus but LOATHED 2-shot burst Kraken. (Kraken and Lex just felt horrible to shoot).

 

Just to make it clear: the above is not meant as a defense of Brakk being not OP, but rather my own 2-cents on whether personal experience is required when evaluating weapon effectiveness.

[Cwierz]

Quite a big snip.

 

Meh, this is all fairly valid, however there are some nitpick things I would like to point out.

 

The feel of the broncos and the brakk are near identical, as they have around the same recoil, spread, but one has a faster fire rate... they are incredibly similar (but that reload animation ;_;). And considering that most players used at least one shotgun they know the limitations of the weapon. I mean, besides the mods, the brakk and the sobek are pretty similar as well.

 

Your comparison with the Vectis and Lanka is not exactly valid, I would think this would be more akin to vulkar vs snipetron. They are incredibley similar, and the same experience can be generalized. 

 

The main point of my post wasn't to state how broncos = brakk however, it was to show that the "you don't have it so you can't say" argument just doesn't work. The brakk was literally just "better" than every other gun if you had to choose between them. 

 

As balance goes, it isn't good game design philosophy to make content that is superior to 100-90 percent of all content. It has worked for some games like WoW, but there are many people who quit just because they do not have the time to "keep up"

 

Either this game starts to make radical changes in the way of scaling/ actions with the current system, or we start to move to incomperables. I am predicting a semi-failed mix between the two due to the nature of this game, and the way it is being taken. 

 

All in all, whether some people liked it or not is was better for the game they did and people will eventually forget about it in favor of the next weapon.

[413X]

[snip]

 

Your comparison with the Vectis and Lanka is not exactly valid, I would think this would be more akin to vulkar vs snipetron. They are incredibley similar, and the same experience can be generalized. 

 

[snip]

 

The main point of my post wasn't to state how broncos = brakk however, it was to show that the "you don't have it so you can't say" argument just doesn't work. The brakk was literally just "better" than every other gun if you had to choose between them. 

 

[snip]

 

Your point about Vulkar and Snipetron is exactly the point which i was making about "significant equivalence" and similarities. All four are sniper rifles, and share some sniper rifle characteristics. But Vulkar and Snipetron fire and operate more similarly compared to the Vektis and Lanka. (Do note I expressly stated that my earlier example was not meant to invalidate your point about Broncos and Brakk, but as a caution of applying or taking that line of thought too far. "I have fired a sniper rifle before, so I can make a judgement on all other sniper rifles in the game" would be an example of that).

 

I did understand the main point of your argument, and the main point of my argument was that I still think practical hands on experience gives deeper insight into the issues of a weapon. Again, nowhere did I in my argument say that the Brakk is not OP, it's not relevant to the discussion we're having between the two of us, which is, how much does personal experience matter when evaluating a weapon.

 

"You don't have it so you can't say" may be a poor argument, but "I have experience shooting weapon Y which belongs in a similar category so I can judge weapon X" should not be applied indiscriminately as well. (Again, not to say you have misapplied it in the case of comparing Brakk to Bronco, which may be the cause of some misunderstanding here, however, the way you have phrased it seems to suggest that it can be applied more liberally than was done in this situation. And I really don't think that's a good thing.)

[NalkorRN]

No piece of exclusive content should be able to trivialize all similar content. Period.

 

Also, saying "you don't own it so you can't say anything" is the equivalent of saying that somebody who has never broken a bone knows what pain feels like. If it is a copy/paste of another similar thing/idea, it is within our scope of knowledge. The only time this argument can apply is when things are selective or exclusive. 

 

I have used a bronco before, It has the same "feel" or whatever it is that it called right now, and the only difference is that the brakk was a statistical upgrade that did better in all categories with no drawbacks, while pushing it past the tipping point of numeric balance between the other weapon categories.

 

 

Also, the amount of "you are just jealous" in this thread is to damn high. It is literally the most basic, primitive, impulsive statement I have seen regarding the brakk, which is saying something. If you want to disprove that it is overpowered start by refuting the posts that stated why it was, don't just attack the person.

This is true, but it would take an hour of testing at most, or one day of feedback after said weapon is released for DE to realize that the weapon is too powerful. They let the OP event exclusives (Machete Wraith aside) stay OP for a nice, long time, likely after people put formas in them before finally releasing a patch to 'balance' them. It's too suspicious.

[Cwierz]

This is true, but it would take an hour of testing at most, or one day of feedback after said weapon is released for DE to realize that the weapon is too powerful. They let the OP event exclusives (Machete Wraith aside) stay OP for a nice, long time, likely after people put formas in them before finally releasing a patch to 'balance' them. It's too suspicious.

Every time a new weapon is released there is always a crowd that says they are to good. So they usually will not pay attention for while.

 

Also, discount the fact that none of that was done for the strun wraith (crit thing is not valid) or snipetron vandal. They don't intentionally try to do it, because the acrid was still king before damage 2.0. Now its a above average weapon that is fairly decent, but it isn't some sort of conspiracy.

 

In the specific case of the brakk, it was above average, but 2.0 basically made it the best weapon in the game with even less of a skill floor and ceiling than the stardard Lato. 

[NalkorRN]

Every time a new weapon is released there is always a crowd that says they are to good. So they usually will not pay attention for while.

 

Also, discount the fact that none of that was done for the strun wraith (crit thing is not valid) or snipetron vandal. They don't intentionally try to do it, because the acrid was still king before damage 2.0. Now its a above average weapon that is fairly decent, but it isn't some sort of conspiracy.

 

In the specific case of the brakk, it was above average, but 2.0 basically made it the best weapon in the game with even less of a skill floor and ceiling than the stardard Lato. 

So the issue isn't the Brakk at all since it was just above average, but how Damage 2.0 made some weapons much weaker (bolto/boltor nor longer constant staggering to compensate for low base damage/slow projectile travel time that only works at short-to-mid range) while others were unintentionally beefed up to the point that if it were the Olympics, people would be citing Steroid abuse?

 

Then DE has shown that Damage 2.0 has failed miserably. Instead of properly balancing/tweaking the weapon to be just above average as it was before, they go into full on nerf mode. Yes, 10-20 meters is painfully short. Someone in a Brakk-related thread showed how, using Grineer Mobile Defense terminals, they could only deal full damage when the enemy was about the distance of one terminal away (length-wise) and at two terminal-lengths away, it was minimal damage.

 

edit: To further clarify, look at the Torid. Prior to Damage 2.0, there was a good chunk of damage in the initial hit, but the poison cloud could proc elements, perfect for slowing enemies with cold to keep them in the cloud longer. Now, only the initial 'slug' can proc elements, the toxic cloud cannot proc elements and that just kills it's damage potential. Yes Damag 2.0 is a work in progress but here we are, a couple weeks or more into Damage 2.0 and I have yet to see DE even acknowledge that a Clan Tech weapon has been screwed by their touted 'new meta' (just status chance now, replacing the old crit chance crown-bearers). They just keep trading one problem for another, it's mind-boggling, I know they can do better than this, we all do.

Edited December 12, 2013 by NalkorRN

[IronRushBR]

I dont liked the way Brakk was nerfed.

I am favour to balance things. Need to be done really, even in co-op game.

But this Brakk falloff is bad joke. I think falloff isn't reasonable to any shotgun (it has spread already). If we really really need to put this thing in the game, need to be 30 meters at least. Nothing less to any shotgun.