Penta Ammo Capacity

[LtZefar]

There are more weapons that will not run out of ammo.

 

Brakk

Bronco (ALL of them)

Lex

Akimbo Lex

Kraken

Any Explosive weapon

Shotguns unless you go for really high level stuff and just spam away.

Pistols with slow firing rate and powerful shots.

 

 

In fact, it's generally only weapons with high rate of fire that are often the only ones running low on ammo. With the exception of bows.

[SIDESTRE4M]

It makes sense, and i explained it to you. A few times. You again post something, that i arleady did counter.

What did you counter exactly?

Switching to sniper ammo that makes no difference in practical use or the non-existent ideas you have yet to give me? What was it you explained to me except it makes no sense to have infinite ammo?

You fail to realize that every ammo efficient weapon has "practically" infinite ammo. And if you really followed the thread, then you did even fail to realize, that some of us are already a step ahead and agreed on individual ammo capacity for weapons with something like damage per bullet ratio as reference, which I tried to explain to you as well what you seem to ignore.

I don't know what else to say. Make up with your mindsetting.

[Baigan]

I remember suggestions of pink ammo pickups to be classified as special ordinance and all the less conventional guns moved to that type. But I think it is sort of a moot point. One can carry ammo restores and fix that with in game currency. Theres so many ammo dropped that you seldom run out of ammo unless you're spraying everything at high lvl surv/defs.

 

Games like TF2 have low max ammo for explosives like the rocket launcher, grenade launcher and sticky too, however, ammo is not aboundant in those games either. ammo pickups have fixed spawn locations, and you get a some ammo back if you grab the weapon from a fallen player or you can run back to spawn points but thats about it. You make shots count. But death is also merely 15secs of a respawn. You can keep playing, you dont need players to hlp you up.

 

Warframe is a different game, often with a more frantic swarm of enemies in multiple directions, and each weapon already has a trade off, and explosives have a specially hefty one at that. They can outright kill you. Maybe the devs know what they are doing, fully taking into consideration that not only you have to watch out to not blow up yourself, but also keep tabs on how much ammo you have left might take too much away from the "fun" as it is.

[Brimir]

Warframe is a different game, often with a more frantic swarm of enemies in multiple directions, and each weapon already has a trade off, and explosives have a specially hefty one at that. They can outright kill you. Maybe the devs know what they are doing, fully taking into consideration that not only you have to watch out to not blow up yourself, but also keep tabs on how much ammo you have left might take too much away from the "fun" as it is.

 

 

The possibility of self-injury is not a valid argument for allowing these weapons to keep their infinite ammo.

 

Just sayin'.

 

 

INFINITE AMMO.

[Baigan]

INFINITE AMMO.

SELF INJURY.

[Brimir]

Incorrect - the risk of self injury.

 

Risk. Chance. The possibility of.

 

If the guns took your Health each time you pulled the trigger, that'd be something. Something... else.

 

But they don't.

[Baigan]

Then you are also wrong, because 540 grenades is also finite, hence, if you perch yourself in a nice cozy safe place and spend 20 minutes pelting at infested or somesuch eventually you will run out of what you call INFINITE AMMO.

[SIDESTRE4M]

INFINITE AMMO.

 

Just like Lex, Kraken, Brakk, Magnus... that are the sidearm counterparts of the problem you see with Penta/Ogris/Torid but that doesn't seem to bother you at all. Where are those people complaining about Duao Vipers, Afuris, Embolist, Spectra having to care for ammo more than other pistols?

 

Every weapon that has good ammo efficiency has practically "infinite" ammunition while those whose DPS is defined by fire rate is the opposite. Deal with it, or come up with solutions for the whole problem but not a nerf for Penta.

 

Penta just got the spotlight, but the problem lies elsewhere.

Edited December 16, 2013 by SIDESTRE4M

[Brimir]

Then you are also wrong, because 540 grenades is also finite, hence, if you perch yourself in a nice cozy safe place and spend 20 minutes pelting at infested or somesuch eventually you will run out of what you call INFINITE AMMO.

 

The ammo capacity is not what makes it infinite, you silly goose.

 

It is the fact that an AoE weapon is tied to the most plentiful ammo pickup.

 

One rifle pickup gives you 20 grenades. The odds of you using them all up without finding yet another pickup of 20 grenades is null. As I said previously in this thread; you'll never go below 520 grenades unless you intentionally waste shots.

 

 

 

Just like Lex, Kraken, Brakk, Magnus... that are the sidearm counterparts of the problem you see with Penta/Ogris/Torid but that doesn't seem to be bother you. Where are those people complaining about Duao Vipers, Afuris, Embolist, Spectra having to care for ammo?

 

Every weapon that has good ammo efficiency has practically "infinite" ammunition. Deal with it, or come up with solutions for the whole problem but not for a nerf for Penta.

 

Penta just got the spotlight, but the problem lies elsewhere.

 

I think it is pretty much established in this thread that ammo is wonky as a whole. There's been a good discussion about it through-out the thread, but people don't like reading through it before puking up an reply it seems. For shame.

 

However due to the extreme mayhem both the Ogris and Penta causes, they are the worst offenders of the bunch. You can compare them to the Lex, Kraken, Magnus or even the Brakk - they don't clear rooms with one or two rounds.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Brimir

[Baigan]

They also don't kill you if you for happenstance are in the same room you are clearing with said one or two rounds :D

[Brimir]

They also don't kill you if you for happenstance are in the same room you are clearing with said one or two rounds :D

 

Neither will the Ogris or Penta.

 

Unless you're being stupid, in which case it is space evolution in action.

[Vladokapuh]

What did you counter exactly?

Switching to sniper ammo that makes no difference in practical use or the non-existent ideas you have yet to give me? What was it you explained to me except it makes no sense to have infinite ammo?

You fail to realize that every ammo efficient weapon has "practically" infinite ammo. And if you really followed the thread, then you did even fail to realize, that some of us are already a step ahead and agreed on individual ammo capacity for weapons with something like damage per bullet ratio as reference, which I tried to explain to you as well what you seem to ignore.

I don't know what else to say. Make up with your mindsetting.

I will repeat if 4th time. You will keep infinite ammo if you use it right, because you deserve to.

If you keep missing, shooting pointlessly around, you HAVE to get out of ammo, but now you dont. That simply fix will change that.

Wont hurt anyone using it fine, but will stop if from being shot 30 minutes straight without ammo pickups.

Dont ask me to repeat myself again, and again, and again.

About Vipers vs Lex

Vipers will kill targets quickly, but will run out of ammo.

Lex will kill MANY more targets, but NEEDS TIME. Lex has NO DPS, NO AOE.

Ogris has OK dps, AND HAS NICE AOE. Attacks whole groups at once, and still has much more ammo than Lex.

Lex case is not even close to be this bad.

[Vladokapuh]

Yes, death is a punishment, you can't always rely on other players to hold your hand because you don't know how to stay alive. Many will just leave you behind, have problems of their own, or won't be able to reach you. Four revives go rather quickly I might add. I'm very careful not to become dependent on using revives.

 

Whether you agree or not, there's risk involved in using the ogris. You keep talking about punishment for using too much ammo on the ogris. So how exactly will you achieve this punishment and whats your justification for making this weapon less flexible? Is it damage, no. Does it excel in areas it shouldn't, no.

I use ogris, and i barelly ever die from it. I dont rely on revives myself, i barelly ever use those, and never had to use one because of ogris killing me.

If you find being able to kill yourself 4 times with no penalty a punishment, i will just assume you are really terrible at what you are doing.

Oh, and it does excel at area it shouldn't. Sustained fire, you can keep shooting as long as you want. Launchers arent ment for that. Neither charging nor reloading makes up for it. You can just keep shooting and shooting. 

[Wiegraf]

People... the suggestions are not a change for damage so anyone crying "NERFERS!", you really didn't take time to read what the thread was about.

 

Simply put, it's not damage, firerate and other such things. It's maximum ammo capacity versus the weapon's firerate and damage.

 

Like snipers having a low maximum is sensible since they deal a lot of damage in a single shot, with a slow firerate (except for the semi-autos). Like bows having 70 shots since you're launching one arrow after the other and the damage potential is greater, per shot, than say a rifle for a single shot.

 

It's simple really :

 

Low damage potential, high firerate = High max ammo capacity

High damage potential, low firerate = Low max ammo capacity

 

And right now, weapons like the Torid, Ogris and Penta stand in the "High damage potential, low firerate" category not because of the damage they can do to a single enemy but rather the total damage it can dispense in a group of enemies for a single shot since it's a blast radius type weapon meant to do damage to a group.

 

It's not a matter of if a Tenno can carry 540 rockets, grenades or bullets; it's a matter that for a weapon which fires rapidly up to 540 times without needing to scavenge for more ammo, there's another which will have 540 shots in reserve as well, shoot slower but deal area damage and will literally never need to have ammo scavenged for it on a regular mission run.

 

I can guarantee you if you simply hold down the trigger on a Gorgon, Soma or whichever automatic weapon you have (or hell, even a LATRON), you'll run out of shots MUCH faster than with the Penta, Ogris or Torid.... and then some as those weapons will fire on and on several times over the duration of those rifles. Which does not make sense on a balance standpoint.

 

Which is why they need a lower max ammo count in comparison to weapons which will fire much more rapidly and currently have the same maximum ammo.

[Brimir]

Though to be honest, it isn't as much the ammo capacity as it is the ammo type in the end.

 

Having them use rifle ammo is the main problem.

[Baigan]

 

And right now, weapons like the Torid, Ogris and Penta stand in the "High damage potential, low firerate" category not because of the damage they can do to a single enemy but rather the total damage it can dispense in a group of enemies for a single shot since it's a blast radius type weapon meant to do damage to a group.

.

 

 

Ehhh... Right now the Torid could use a lot of love, so lets not drag it in this discussion :(

[Vladokapuh]

Ehhh... Right now the Torid could use a lot of love, so lets not drag it in this discussion :(

Some love sure, but not in case of ammo capacity.

[SIDESTRE4M]

[...not the part for me...]

 

I think it is pretty much established in this thread that ammo is wonky as a whole. There's been a good discussion about it through-out the thread, but people don't like reading through it before puking up an reply it seems. For shame.

 

However due to the extreme mayhem both the Ogris and Penta causes, they are the worst offenders of the bunch. You can compare them to the Lex, Kraken, Magnus or even the Brakk - they don't clear rooms with one or two rounds.

 

Haha, I hope you didn't just accuse me of not reading since my posts are numerous in this thread already. And I wrote a lot to the ammo topic too, which you would know if you read it...

 

I will repeat if 4th time. You will keep infinite ammo if you use it right, because you deserve to.

If you keep missing, shooting pointlessly around, you HAVE to get out of ammo, but now you dont. That simply fix will change that.

Wont hurt anyone using it fine, but will stop if from being shot 30 minutes straight without ammo pickups.

Dont ask me to repeat myself again, and again, and again.

About Vipers vs Lex

Vipers will kill targets quickly, but will run out of ammo.

Lex will kill MANY more targets, but NEEDS TIME. Lex has NO DPS, NO AOE.

Ogris has OK dps, AND HAS NICE AOE. Attacks whole groups at once, and still has much more ammo than Lex.

Lex case is not even close to be this bad.

 

You keep repaeting your resolve, but no solutions at all except from nerf ammo capacity.

 

You create yourself impractical situations. Except from standing on a high point on a defense map, I cannot see how I could manage not to pick up ammo. I would have to dodge ammo packs to get lower than 500 missles/granades. You can argue that maybe it doesn't apply to me because I might use it "right" in your point of view, but somehow I doubt, I'm so special.

 

I wouldn't want to compare sidearms with primary weapons on this occasion because all pistols have 210 ammo capacity while the primaries have three categories including shotguns. So I try to compare Lex with for example the Vipers because it is the same szenario. You need more bullets to hit the targets for the same damage as Lex but don't have more ammo or less ammo for the Lex in conclusion.

 

My goal is to show the people that the Penta is nothing new regarding this topic but many people focus on our three launchers instead.

A simple solution could be a launcher ammo pool with maybe a capacity of 40 or so, but it wouldn't change the efficient nature of the weapon at all, thus the playstyle of the weapon would remain, thus creating only useless work for the devs.

 

So the reason we are colliding every time is, that I fail to understand your problem and therefore are forced to just defend and trying to solve the problem. You seem to want to discuss the basic principles.

 

Using it right or wrong or so. I cannot see the problem here either because the limiting factor here always has been the low fire rate of the penta. The low fire rate prevents you from spamming. Sure, you can equip fire rate mods, but for the price of lowering the damage.

[Brimir]

Again, that was preemptive statement.

 

For people new to the thread.

[Wiegraf]

Though to be honest, it isn't as much the ammo capacity as it is the ammo type in the end.

 

Having them use rifle ammo is the main problem.

 

True that; even if the ammo count would be modified, Rifle Ammo packs would still restore 20 shots per pack. Either the Shotgun or Sniper ammo type would fit better at least for the amount of ammo restored by a pack.

 

 

Ehhh... Right now the Torid could use a lot of love, so lets not drag it in this discussion :(

 

No worries, the Torid is its own problem right now which is mainly caused by the transition to Damage 2.0; once it's revised, then the issue with ammo capacity will apply to the group again :)

Edited December 16, 2013 by Wiegraf

[Eyeless]

Brim, I get what you're going for, and I support that, the only issue I have is everytime DE likes to go out and 'fix' various things, nngh...

 

I'm more paranoid that they'll be busy fiddling with the Penta/Torid/Ogris's ammo, notice

'Hey, the Ogris and Penta are good at what they do! Lets try something NEW!'

 

Next hotfix their AoE has been reduced, their clip sizes have been reduced to 10, and on top of that they have a new ammo type that's rarer than Sniper ammo that only fills 1 round per pickup yet the drop rate is so low you may as well only have 15 additional shots after the initial clip. 

 

Then their 'fix' for that is a Launcher Ammo Mutator that drops from T3 Void Survivals with a 0.1% chance followed by the release of expensive ammo consumables. 

[Wiegraf]

Next hotfix their AoE has been reduced, their clip sizes have been reduced to 10, and on top of that they have a new ammo type that's rarer than Sniper ammo that only fills 1 round per pickup yet the drop rate is so low you may as well only have 15 additional shots after the initial clip. 

 

... So.. you're expecting both the Ogris and Penta to work with a negative amount of rounds in their clips? There was never mention of magazine size, AoE range, damage or firerate; only the ridiculous amount of TOTAL ammunition you lug around for a set of slow firing weapons with large damage potential on a group of enemies.

 

It's a technical balance nerf since these weapons have ridiculous ammo efficiency since they fire very slow, have a LOT of total ammunition and restores 20 shots a pickup. You're more than likely to find 3 or more rifle ammo pickups for firing your full clip of 5 grenades in a few crowds which means you'll have at least the capacity to restore at least 60 shots for having fired 5.

 

At least if the maximum ammo count was reduced and pickups toned down to 5-10 per pack (which means Shotgun or Sniper ammo pool), then the weapon would be less ammo efficient yet still good enough to use. Only now, you'd have to manage your ammo... much like the rest of the weapons minus these three have to.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Wiegraf

[SIDESTRE4M]

Seriously, that won't change a thing. If you really want to nerf an ammo efficient weapon, you need a really hard nerf or it won't affect it at all. So either it sucks or makes no difference. I favor the latter.

 

I need only 40 capacity if it comes down to this. Cut the 5 in front of 540 and I'm still fine. On Survival, often my ammunition gets replenished fully just after I reload, so how do you exactly want to nerf it? Haha maybe even 20 will do.

 

I will check after work how much ammo I can waste, but really, I never saw my ammo drop below 500 even once. I rarely if ever see it drop below 520 or 510.

 

However I play mostly Survival and the other mission types on occasion. I went out of ammo with my low boar prime after 30min (with mutation mod of course) because enemies got so high I had to unload full magazines on heavies and more to defeat them.

With my fully modded Synapse including ammo mutation I feel like Zeus. I don't even look at the ammo, I just shoot.

I will test Supra later and see if it matters.

 

So why the hell do you want to nerf something so trivial?

[Vladokapuh]

Seriously, that won't change a thing. If you really want to nerf an ammo efficient weapon, you need a really hard nerf or it won't affect it at all. So either it sucks or makes no difference. I favor the latter.

 

I need only 40 capacity if it comes down to this. Cut the 5 in front of 540 and I'm still fine. On Survival, often my ammunition gets replenished fully just after I reload, so how do you exactly want to nerf it? Haha maybe even 20 will do.

 

I will check after work how much ammo I can waste, but really, I never saw my ammo drop below 500 even once. I rarely if ever see it drop below 520 or 510.

 

However I play mostly Survival and the other mission types on occasion. I went out of ammo with my low boar prime after 30min (with mutation mod of course) because enemies got so high I had to unload full magazines on heavies and more to defeat them.

With my fully modded Synapse including ammo mutation I feel like Zeus. I don't even look at the ammo, I just shoot.

I will test Supra later and see if it matters.

 

So why the hell do you want to nerf something so trivial?

You run in circles. I explained it to you SO CLEAR, and yet you still dont get it. I dont want you to stop shooting. I dont want to cut out efficiency. I just want you to pickup ammo. You should have to do this, but you dont. 540 is simply too much. Make it use sniper ammo pool, and thats it! Simple as nothing else, and will balance it out.

Ignoring your messages from now on. You keep repeating same thing, even though i told you what to change, why change it, and how to change it. A few times.

I dont want to nerf it, i want to fix it. Its broken.

[SIDESTRE4M]

You overestimate yourself if you think I care if you are ignoring me or not, since you'll read it anyways.

I repeat the goddamn thing everytime because people are talking like it matters if Penta had 540 or 40 ammo capacity and if it would affect gameplay at all.

 

Especially you are bound to this error and you talk as if Penta users are clowns that dodge ammo just to laugh at your gorgon. As if your concept of caring wherever I shoot would take a foothold in warframe where fights are more like serious sam and not call of duty.

 

There is nothing broken, just people who want to change numbers for nothing. I couldn't emtpy a Penta even if I wanted to. With that low fire rate I had to non-stop shoot for like half an hour what oviously no one does. Even in warframe you take little breaks between shooting. This topic makes no sense at all, every page I read the same S#&$. Sry, but that's how it is.

 

If you think, things get just fixed like this, then dream on. With an ammo efficient weapon like Penta you'll never have to worry with a balanced overall setup and I don't think some people who screw up their builds should be subject to this topic.

 

As if it would change something if I had to draw a secondary for five enemies or not.

 

Fine, nerf that Penta to 10 ammo capacity and you'd still never be able to be more efficient with a Gorgon.

 

EDIT: I'm not against a balanced ammo pool for each weapon, but I'm against those nerf sayers for nothing. Fire rate limits penta not the ammo, that's how it should be for weapons with the premise of beeing efficient.

Weapons who excels at fire rate have their own advantages and disadvantages. I'm not against giving them more ammo, because whatever should I care if my team mates have more ammo. Win for all.

Edited December 16, 2013 by SIDESTRE4M