Damage Balance Vs Ancients

[Keetsune]

It is not posible to balance damage vs ancients since Healer have ridiculously different reistanse than Toxic & Distruptor.

 

Just in example Penta vs infesteds:

 

1). Base blast +50% dmg to Distruptor & Toxic = 350*1,5 = 525

2)  Base blast -50% dmg to Healer = 350*0,5 = 175

3) Trying to balance damage by installing Radiation element  Hellfire+Stormbringer = 350*1,8 = 630

     3.1) -75% dmg to Distruptor & Toxic = 630*0,25 = 158

     3.2) +50% dmg to Healer = 630*1,5 = 945

4) Total damage to Distruptor & Toxic = 525 + 158 = 683

5) Total damage to Healer = 175+945 = 1120

 

As you can see we still far away from balance and there is no way i can increase blast damage since if i add Cryo Rounds + Wildfire in exact order after Hellfire + Stormbriger, it will give me increased Radiation + Freeze damage ... and no additional Blast. I can't add Corrosive damage since Stormbringer is already in use ...

 

In any attempt to balance damage there is always 50% or more difference in damage between Healer & Distruptor/Toxic ... and this is make nosense.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Keetsune

[Keiiken]

I think what you are describing here was the intent of Damage/Armor 2.0, no one ring... weapon/loadout to rule them all.

[Nox-Lamina]

I think what you are describing here was the intent of Damage/Armor 2.0, no one ring... weapon/loadout to rule them all.

 

The issue in 1.0 was that Armor Ignoring damage types were more or less necessary, it was the go to choice and everything else was deemed useless. Here it is an issue because these are 3 Ancients, they are all infested heavy melee units that just happen to have different abilities. Having them take similar damage from similar elements is called consistency.

[Keetsune]

I think what you are describing here was the intent of Damage/Armor 2.0, no one ring... weapon/loadout to rule them all.

What the point to do overkill on toxic/distruptor and do not kill healer?  I using 6x time foramed Penta and runing in ODS and this is ridiculous that i do 9k dmg on toxic/distrupters and 4k dmg on healer, there should be an option to balance damage to do atleast 7k dmg to both ... but i can't do that ... but wait yeah!!! i can do viceversa and do 8k dmg to healer and 4k to toxic&distruptor, COOL story.

[Keetsune]

The issue in 1.0 was that Armor Ignoring damage types were more or less necessary, it was the go to choice and everything else was deemed useless. Here it is an issue because these are 3 Ancients, they are all infested heavy melee units that just happen to have different abilities. Having them take similar damage from similar elements is called consistency.

I'm ok that healer have other armor than toxic/distruptor. The only problem is that it's useless to do overdamage on one type of heavy units and do not damage other. Resists of this mobs should be reconsidered so we can sacrifice maximum damage a bit in order to make it balanced.

[Ozrik]

It is not posible to balance damage vs ancients since Healer have ridiculously different reistanse than Toxic & Distruptor.

 

Just in example Penta vs infesteds:

 

1). Base blast +50% dmg to Distruptor & Toxic = 350*1,5 = 525

2)  Base blast -50% dmg to Healer = 350*0,5 = 175

3) Trying to balance damage by installing Radiation element  Hellfire+Stormbringer = 350*1,8 = 630

     3.1) -75% dmg to Distruptor & Toxic = 630*0,25 = 158

     3.2) +50% dmg to Healer = 630*1,5 = 945

4) Total damage to Distruptor & Toxic = 525 + 158 = 683

5) Total damage to Healer = 175+945 = 1120

 

As you can see we still far away from balance and there is no way i can increase blast damage since if i add Cryo Rounds + Wildfire in exact order after Hellfire + Stormbriger, it will give me increased Radiation + Freeze damage ... and no additional Blast. I can't add Corrosive damage since Stormbringer is already in use ...

 

In any attempt to balance damage there is always 50% or more difference in damage between Healer & Distruptor/Toxic ... and this is make nosense.

The whole point of damage 2.0 is to make you use different weapons in missions, that being said does it matter if one enemy type take 10k and one 20k no it doesn't,  all that matters is that toughest mob dies in timely fashion.

 

I love the penta but not sure i'd 6x forma it or use against infested, but hey if your having fun its all good.

[Keetsune]

The whole point of damage 2.0 is to make you use different weapons in missions, that being said does it matter if one enemy type take 10k and one 20k no it doesn't,  all that matters is that toughest mob dies in timely fashion.

 

I love the penta but not sure i'd 6x forma it or use against infested, but hey if your having fun its all good.

You didn't take a point.

[Keiiken]

The issue in 1.0 was that Armor Ignoring damage types were more or less necessary, it was the go to choice and everything else was deemed useless. Here it is an issue because these are 3 Ancients, they are all infested heavy melee units that just happen to have different abilities. Having them take similar damage from similar elements is called consistency.

 

The whole point actually is they(the devs) don't want consistency, they are all heavy units but not cookie cutter. More than just their abilities are different they have different resistances etc so yes the same weapon/loadout works different on each one.

 

You will have to choose which you consider the greater threat and mod to kill it quickest.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Keiiken

[Nox-Lamina]

The whole point actually is they(the devs) don't want consistency, they are all heavy units but not cookie cutter. More than just their abilities are different they have different resistances etc so yes the same weapon/loadout works different on each one.

 

You will have to choose which you consider the greater threat and mod to kill it quickest.

 

You are not making any sense. Take grineer, the majority of grineer if not all of them take  extra damage from viral because they are all cloned flesh. So why on earth will Ancients take different damages. Or example the corpus. All of the human corpus are weak to slash, all robotic corpus are weak to puncture, electric ETC. So why are ancients different? Why do all classes of MOA and Osprey have the same weaknesses and ancients are different? Why do grineer across the board, heavy or light have that same weakness to viral and why are ancients different? Again, you are not making any sense.

[Keiiken]

You are not making any sense. Take grineer, the majority of grineer if not all of them take  extra damage from viral because they are all cloned flesh. So why on earth will Ancients take different damages. Or example the corpus. All of the human corpus are weak to slash, all robotic corpus are weak to puncture, electric ETC. So why are ancients different? Why do all classes of MOA and Osprey have the same weaknesses and ancients are different? Why do grineer across the board, heavy or light have that same weakness to viral and why are ancients different? Again, you are not making any sense.

 

The flesh takes same damage but armor resists it so you will not do the same damage to all Grineer. If you look at the breakdown they have for the infested it snot just flesh but fossilized and sinew meaning different damage will be done to them depending on whats there apart from flesh.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

[Nox-Lamina]

The flesh takes same damage but armor resists it so you will not do the same damage to all Grineer. If you look at the breakdown they have for the infested it snot just flesh but fossilized and sinew meaning different damage will be done to them depending on whats there apart from flesh.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

 

Then why is one of the ancients a different class of infested than the other? All corpus robots fall under robotic. All grineer fall under cloned flesh, I never said you will do the same damage to all, I merely said they all get a multiplier when being dealt viral damage. So what makes ancients different? What reason other than arbitrarily complicating things for complication's own sake do we have 2 ancients falling under fossilized and one under sinew? 

 

This division exists nowhere else, the grineer unify under cloned flesh before dividing into alloy and ferrite armor, There is no different set of rules for moas, fusion moas, railgun mos and shockwave moas  they are all robotics and take damage as such. So I ask again, why don't ancients follow the trends set up by the other factions?

[LukeAura]

Then why is one of the ancients a different class of infested than the other? All corpus robots fall under robotic. All grineer fall under cloned flesh, I never said you will do the same damage to all, I merely said they all get a multiplier when being dealt viral damage. So what makes ancients different? What reason other than arbitrarily complicating things for complication's own sake do we have 2 ancients falling under fossilized and one under sinew? 

 

This division exists nowhere else, the grineer unify under cloned flesh before dividing into alloy and ferrite armor, There is no different set of rules for moas, fusion moas, railgun mos and shockwave moas  they are all robotics and take damage as such. So I ask again, why don't ancients follow the trends set up by the other factions?

Because variety, basically. Infested split their flesh in to different types. Grineer their Corpus their sharmor. and ields. Each one works a little differently from the others. Grineer have their armor fully integrated to health. Corpus have half of their health as shield and half as flesh/robotic. Infested have several flesh types but no secondary defensive type. 

It's like asking why don't all corpus use the same kind of shield. Or all grineer use the same kind of armor? 

 

I believe the official reason is that infested flesh further mutates as the infested being ages. It can either become more 'fossilized' whatever that means because fossilized still takes bonus damage from slash which seems weird for a fossil, or becomes more of a fibrous sinew. 

 

 

[konfetarius]

why do grineer across the board, heavy or light have that same weakness to viral and why are ancients different? Again, you are not making any sense.

Um. Grineer have the same division, and it's significantly more severe than what the Infested have.

Heavy Gunners are Ferrite armor, Bombards/Napalms are Alloy armor. This means HG's only take any real amount of damage from Corrosive, and Bombards/Napalms are only weak to Radiation. Viral is only a damage bonus, while Corrosive/Radiation are a 75% armor ignore bonus.

Edited December 25, 2013 by konfetarius

[Keetsune]

Viral is only a damage bonus, while Corrosive/Radiation are a 75% armor ignore bonus.

You have so awful imagination about dmg mechanic. There is NO armor ignore damage anymore. Viral > Corrosive/Radiation because it does 75% damage to every signle grineer, except robotic ofc.

[konfetarius]

...

Do yourself a favor, and test it against Heavy Gunners or Napalms. Viral does dramatically less damage than either Corrosive or Radiation against the respective damage types.

Armor is still very much a thing here.

Edited December 25, 2013 by konfetarius

[Voidflow]

You can still additionaly optimize your sidearm for ancient healers e.g. "puncture" + cold + radiation.

In my opinion the new damage concept is good. Some bonus could be tweaked e.g. more equalness between healer and disruptor etc.

[Hyunsai]

Ancients are not that tough anyway (we're not talking about heavy armored grineer here), and the Healer is not a priority target compared to Toxic/Disruptor.

 

And Penta users shouldn't complain, really lol.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Hyunsai

[Keetsune]

Ancients are not that tough anyway (we're not talking about heavy armored grineer here), and the Healer is not a priority target compared to Toxic/Disruptor.

 

And Penta users shouldn't complain, really lol.

Try to say it to 60lvl+ ancients.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Keetsune

[konfetarius]

Try to say it to 60lvl+ ancients.

A Corrosive Penta with 6 mods total (Split/Serration/Caliber/Firestorm/Infected/Stormbringer) one shots Toxic/Disruptor ancients up to almost 80. The super evil healing ancients take maybe 3 direct hits.

He is right, Penta users should be the last to complain.

Edited December 25, 2013 by konfetarius

[Keetsune]

A Corrosive Penta with 6 mods total (Split/Serration/Caliber/Firestorm/Infected/Stormbringer) one shots Toxic/Disruptor ancients up to almost 80. The super evil healing ancients take maybe 3 direct hits.

He is right, Penta users should be the last to complain.

Another one not taking a point.

 

So many water here without any real arguments against a reason of this topic.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Keetsune

[konfetarius]

Your topic's a fine point of discussion, but you shouldn't saturate it with with blatantly wrong information.