Nerf The Vanguard Rhino Helm

[WhiskeyGolf]

Please don't nerf the helmet. Otherwise, whenever I get lost, I won't be able to catch up to my team. T__T

[Chaz_Darkbane]

Seriously? This is an actual thread? Why the hell would we want to nerf a helmet change that does nothing except alleviate the rhinos terrible movement speed at the cost of power strength? It isn't overpowered, it doesn't make an overbearing difference and actually makes the rhinos key skills such as iron skin weaker as a cost. People like different playstyles and that is really all this helmet is for, people who can't stand being a slow space ninja.  

 

I swear I think everyone often forget this is primarily a co-op game by the amount of nerf threads you see on the forums. You won't be complaining about the helmet when you go down and a rhino man modes his way to save you, you won't be complaining about it when you waste timing waiting for a rhino to catch up at the objective or extraction. 

 

People can complain about a lot of things about other warframes, but something as trivial as movement speed shouldn't be one of them.

 

Really though, if you don't like the helmet, don't wear it. No one is forcing it on you and a teammate wearing it shouldn't bother you unless you have some compulsive need to race everyone.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Chaz_Darkbane

[MsXylar]

Umm Dalewyn, You have a Mastery level 6 only, Weapons are half leveled and only some leveled to 30 and you play Excal the most and have only have 172 hours played and I do believe that you have only leveled the Rhino to 30 once and THAT is your basis to make this post to nerf a helmet of a Warframe that you know hardly anything about or have used for a great period of time?? Tater and former the warframe, play it for a while longer and THAN make a complaining post!!.

 

Please feel free to look at my online profile. I have a hell of a lot more game time, weapons and warframes leveled, tatered and formered at least 3 times on my fav Warframes, 5 of them to be precise..lot of game time experience.

 

I think your post and arguement is invalid..Get more game time on the Rhino under your belt and then come back to this forums and re-post about nerf's!

 

Xy out AGAIN!! :S

Edited January 3, 2014 by MsXylar

[Doppelgangerk]

Can we buff the Thrak helmet? +25HP at the price of -7% speed? WTH?

 

Or just remove all the alternative helmet states once for all (like new nekros ones)

 

Most helmet that actually pretty useful are IMO looks just bad, "trinity one(roaster in her face) and loki essence(submarine command tower)"

 

People like me just want a cool helmet, and most cool helmet are just a punishment for game play 

Edited January 3, 2014 by Doppelgangerk

[taiiat]

I think your post and arguement is invalid..

no one's opinion is ever invalid. neither is any opinion correct, for that matter. but they are always relevant.

[AbsolutionZero]

[Inez]

I've loved Excalibur since the day I started Warframe and enjoy playing him to this very day, in fact he is my starter warframe and he still tops my "most used warframe" statistic at something like 70% or so. However, the fact remains that if I have Vanguard Rhino and he is clearly superior to everything Excalibur can bring, then that means I am intentionally gimping my team purely for the sake of my personal enjoyment and that's not exactly a pleasant thought to have.

 

I play games primarily for personal enjoyment, don't get me wrong, but Warframe is a co-op game and consequently I aim to make sure I am at least not presenting an unjustifiable sub-optimal gaming experience to my fellow gamers due to my choices.

And here's where your entire argument falls apart: You take Warframe WAAAY too seriously. Using Excalibur gives your team a "sub-optimal gaming experience?" You act like this is some hardcore game where you need to min/max. Here's a free tip from a vet: its not. You play Warframe to have fun. Its a casual game where a pubbie group is capable of doing anything in the game. Save very long endless missions.

And you act like Excalibur isn't OP himself. Add me as a friend and I'll carry you through any in game content, with just the two of us. With me playing the 'weakling' Excalibur.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Inez

[XDeathCoreX]

This thread exists to get the Vanguards into an uproar by getting their helmet stats removed. They just want the Rhino players to create a bunch a whine threads and drink their tears.

 

There is no valid point in this thread, just poor uneducated fallacies...

 

The devs should do everyone a favor and boost the movement speed of all slows frames by 25%. 15% boost for the mediocre speed frames, then they can remove speed boost stats from any helmet and no Ninja would be slow. Movement is a big deal in this game, why make it less fun.

 

An alternative would be adding a utility slot to each frame where mods like rush can only go. They can still be placed in other slots.

And they also want Rhino to be painfully slow again because they enjoy outrunning him.

[Nichizzy]

Because Frost has snow globe and can solo t3 mob def with any sentinel while eating pizza. If you're playing a run and gun map you might want to take a Warframe that excels at this stuff.

 

A slow Rhino can't do his job properly. If I have one on the team I want the big guy ahead of me to soak bullets. There's not much point in cc/buffs/being tanky if everythings over by the time you arrive.

 

If the game turns into a race you're either too slow or someones just rushing, that's not the vanguard helmets fault.

I concur. We take a Warframe that excels at what's he's doing. That's why Frost is stuck at defense maps, that's his tradeoff for having an awesome and vital skill. But Vanguard Rhino are simply too good at everything. DPS, Survival, Mobility. That's OP's concern and he seek to balance it by suggesting a nerf to one of the stats of lesser importance - mobility.

 

Past a certain level, a (relatively) slow Rhino will not be detrimental to the team, simply because the team of faster and mobile frames cannot, with ease, blaze through the game content without the support of a tank. It deters rushing and heightens the importance Rhino's role - a mobile tank (as opposed to Frost, a static tank), because the team then moves with and around the tank, not the other way around.

 

At low to medium levels where tanks are not needed and any well modded frames can move quickly through the content, then by your own logic, you should not use a Rhino because there are other frames which is better suited for faster gameplay.

 

Speed can be completely irrelevant to most runs. I run a thrak helm w/ my Rhino and I'm usually first to extract anyway. It all matters on the players themselves. Most of you are looking at it from a completely theoretical and statistic point of view. Thats like saying that I'm gonna beat you in a race cause my car is "statistically" faster than yours.... WRONG! You're complaining about something that is trivial all because you want your Excal to be faster than Rhino. Booo friggin hoo... Complain about important things like a lack of skill/buff timers, which is a necessity at this point with the higher level runs.

True, and just like you - if I wanted it, I can be the first to extract with any frame I play on most games. But the reason why we assume player skills being equal is to have a fairer and a more level ground for comparison between the frames/items - which is really the point of the discussion.

 

And contrary to your claim, it is not about me or you being faster than a Rhino. It's about a Rhino being faster than most other frames AND tankier AND has great DPS as well. It's not a personal selfish request, it's about trying to look at the bigger picture.

 

Seriously? This is an actual thread? Why the hell would we want to nerf a helmet change that does nothing except alleviate the rhinos terrible movement speed at the cost of power strength? It isn't overpowered, it doesn't make an overbearing difference and actually makes the rhinos key skills such as iron skin weaker as a cost. People like different playstyles and that is really all this helmet is for, people who can't stand being a slow space ninja.  

 

I swear I think everyone often forget this is primarily a co-op game by the amount of nerf threads you see on the forums. You won't be complaining about the helmet when you go down and a rhino man modes his way to save you, you won't be complaining about it when you waste timing waiting for a rhino to catch up at the objective or extraction. 

 

People can complain about a lot of things about other warframes, but something as trivial as movement speed shouldn't be one of them.

 

Really though, if you don't like the helmet, don't wear it. No one is forcing it on you and a teammate wearing it shouldn't bother you unless you have some compulsive need to race everyone.

by Helljacks logic, if you cant stand being a slow space ninja, then dont choose a slow space ninja.

 

by your logic, as the helm alleviates the worst weakness in Rhino and you're favourable to it, then DE might as well introduce helms which

- makes agile dps frames like Nova a tank as well (with a 5% loss in power strength, woops!)

- makes tough cookies like Trinity an all rounded dpser as well (with a 5% loss in energy, woops!)

- gives Valkyr high shields (with a 5% loss in armor, woops!)

 

The list is endless and you'll only end up making all the frames generic and boring. A weakness in a frame is to be overcome by skills - not negated by an item.

 

Any game, including co-op games, cant have perpetual buffs and sunshine and expect to remain fun after a period of time. Is this really that difficult to understand?

 

Not all nerf requests are born out of a desire to 'trump' other players. I have a Vanguard Rhino as well, and a nerf to the helm would do me no good. But in my opinion, it would do the game good which is better still.

 

And they also want Rhino to be painfully slow again because they enjoy outrunning him.

Again, it is not personal. There's little sense of accomplishment from outrunning any frames.

[DaveC]

Now rather than all this talk of Rhino, what about poor old Frost...he needs a rocket up his arse....gotta be the slowest frame in the game and Vaubans not exactly sprightly either.

[WARLOCKE]

Certainly this brought up many valid points.

However the basis of your claims is not entirely correct.

You simply cannot and i repeat CANNOT use high levels and endgame to justify ANYTHING in this game. DE has stated that they are imbalanced, and anyone with half a brain can realize it.

In high levels, all that ends up happening is people use the stupidest game mechanics in existence to fight the most broken scaling system in existence.

 

This brings up my second point. The entire post had mentions to the stupidest skills currently in the game.

If you noticed, and I don't remember if I said this in the exact wording or not, or if I included everything I am about to say really quick.

"Rhino has the best all around skillset of any frame that isn't OP"

 

This includes, Snowglobe, Bastille, Blessing, M Prime, Chaos, to name the biggest offenders that are in fact OP.

 

To wrap this up, never use endgame or high levels as justification for anything, its dumb, and makes DE balance around an already broken and non existent endgame. Don't use skills that are blatantly OP (despite how many people want to argue this) to justify anything either.

 

Also, Valkyr and Trinity don't have actual CC immunity. They do get pushed back by a meter or so, and that adds up really fast. Rhino is the only frame that has complete and utter immunity.

 

I mean, I can understand where you are coming from, and it would look completely solid. But the fact of the matter is that the games scaling and progression mission wise is so #*($%%@ up that unless we weed out the problems we have now we will never be able to fix the progression and scaling. It might be some of the reason that many people view me as a nerfer, but I think that blessing, snowglobe, chaos, m prime, and a host of other things need to be removed, or nerfed.

 

 

I was gonna read this thread again after a day or two then just leave it alone, since it is, well, moronic. But reading this right here, gold.

 

You "think" they should balance a game on low level content? For realz? Seriously? This is a progression game, why we have rank mastery weapon requirements and increasing difficulty in levels. Of course you need to to balance the game around "endgame- hate this word" content. 

 

And the devs said that high level defense is invalid balance wise because normal missions would never get that high. They did not say all high end content was screwed up.

 

Im starting to think you are just a very potent troll.

[WARLOCKE]

Now rather than all this talk of Rhino, what about poor old Frost...he needs a rocket up his arse....gotta be the slowest frame in the game and Vaubans not exactly sprightly either.

 

Yes, Frost needs his own Vanguard helmet.

[WARLOCKE]

"I concur. We take a Warframe that excels at what's he's doing. That's why Frost is stuck at defense maps, that's his tradeoff for having an awesome and vital skill. But Vanguard Rhino are simply too good at everything. DPS, Survival, Mobility. That's OP's concern and he seek to balance it by suggesting a nerf to one of the stats of lesser importance - mobility."

 

 

Couldnt leave this one alone. Rhino's dps is indeed very high. On sedna....yuk yuk yuk. His survival rate is slightly higher than some frames, but well behind Frost, Loki, Ash and Trinity. He is very mobile now, that part is true. But a CC frame needs to be moblie.

 

Regardless, Rhino players are already punished for using the vanguard. It looks like he has two slab of bacon slapped on his helm with that thing on.

 

Edit. Go do a t3 mission solo and revel in Rhino's "dps". Once you are on your 10th stomp and things still are not dead, then come back to the thread.

Edited January 4, 2014 by WARLOCKE

[Thaumatos]

Making Rhino slow would make sense...but only if the following were true:

• He had the most armor in the game
• He couldn't bypass his slow runspeed with wall walking or sliding
• He had a built-in resistance to knockdown

Since none of that is true, I actually think Rhino should be as fast as everyone else.  Either that, or make the above true.

[ArsVampyre]

1) Nerfs are poor design.  Make things better to compensate rather than making everything worse.  Anyone who says you should nerf something should be put on ignore.

 

2) The Vanguard helm is the only thing that makes Rhino acceptable to play.  I don't care how much damage it can mitigate or how much CC it does if it's never where the action is because it's too slow.  Frost is a defense-only frame because it's slow and it's powers are all location based; Rhino only becomes useful if you can keep up with the other frames.  Otherwise we all may as well run Nova.

 

3) Further, removing the stat altering from Alt-helms has made the new ones useless.  While some people may want to be able to make the frame look a certain way but don't want the stat changes, some of us only care about those stat changes.  Make it a toggle if the stat changes work or not and be done with it, and give every alt-helm stat changes.  Otherwise, just make new skins and stop making alt-helms.

 

4) See #1.  I can't stress this enough; nerfs make your game worse and remove player choice.  One of the worst decisions DE made with this game was when they took Auras and made them into cards that took points.  One of the best decisions ever made was when they take those same aura mods and made them GIVE you points instead.  The first was a massive nerf, the second was a massive buff.  Buff == good, Nerf == bad.  I can't stress this enough.

[Cwierz]

I was gonna read this thread again after a day or two then just leave it alone, since it is, well, moronic. But reading this right here, gold.

 

You "think" they should balance a game on low level content? For realz? Seriously? This is a progression game, why we have rank mastery weapon requirements and increasing difficulty in levels. Of course you need to to balance the game around "endgame- hate this word" content. 

 

And the devs said that high level defense is invalid balance wise because normal missions would never get that high. They did not say all high end content was screwed up.

 

Im starting to think you are just a very potent troll.

Oh look, another one of the people who refuses to acknowledge how stupid the high level play and endgame of warframe is. Seriously, the fact that you need a frame to make you invincible 24/7 speaks volumes about how balanced this game is, it really does. We wouldn't need half of these discussions if core problems of this game were actually addressed, but sadly the forum is plagued with people who just want to number @#&*( from damage done, and I gave up on attacking the core problems of the game a long time ago.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Cwierz

[Dalewyn]

Making Rhino slow would make sense...but only if the following were true:

• He had the most armor in the game
• He couldn't bypass his slow runspeed with wall walking or sliding
• He had a built-in resistance to knockdown

Since none of that is true, I actually think Rhino should be as fast as everyone else.  Either that, or make the above true.

Regarding your first and third points, which are glaringly wrong:

 

1. Rhino has 190 base armor, this means he ties with Frost who also has 190 armor and is only surpassed by Valkyr who has 300 armor (who of course came after Rhino/Frost). Not "the most armor in the game" after the introduction of Valkyr, yes, but certainly still above average and signifying his archetype as a tank/bruiser. Of course, I will admit that armor ironically plays absolutely no practical part in tanking mechanics here in WF because health-tanking is nigh pointless.

 

3. Iron Skin. Nosells CC. All year long.

[taiiat]

1) Nerfs are poor design.  Make things better to compensate rather than making everything worse.  Anyone who says you should nerf something should be put on ignore.

and this is why games like World of Warcraft have damage numbers and health that go into the billions. 

because "numbers can't ever go down because that isn't balance".

kay.

 

buffs and nerfs both should never exist. numbers going up, and numbers going down, are both pointless.

balancing is what is important, how things interact in scope of everything else. this can include numbers going up and down, but does not entirely consist of it. that is only one of the options that exist for balancing. and should generally be avoided if there are other (generally better) options available.

[UncleWalrus]

and this is why games like World of Warcraft have damage numbers and health that go into the billions. 

because "numbers can't ever go down because that isn't balance".

kay.

 

buffs and nerfs both should never exist. numbers going up, and numbers going down, are both pointless.

balancing is what is important, how things interact in scope of everything else. this can include numbers going up and down, but does not entirely consist of it. that is only one of the options that exist for balancing. and should generally be avoided if there are other (generally better) options available.

 

Please never get a job in system design.

 

WoW has values going into the billions due to scaling and level progression, especially the massive value jumps between expansions to force people into the gear treadmill all over again, extend subscriptions help Blizz build their third mountain of solid gold. And numbers do constantly go  down in that game. The sheer number of bosses that have been nerfed into the ground is hilarious.

Starcraft has values in the tens and occasionally hundreds because there isn't an ingame progression system to recursively/exponentially upscale content, and even it has value reductions. Just ask the post-HotS Reaper.

 

Secondly, how do you plan on achieving this "balancing" without primarily adjusting values, making numbers go up and down, buffing and nerfing?

Sure, we can go into the idea of incomparables, but even those boil down to numerical values eventually.

What is the best alternative to minimize incoming damage/risk of a failure state? How much less effective damage do I take between x seconds of invulnerability, y amount of healing and z seconds of CC per unit of resource?

What is the best alternative to maximize damage output? How much more damage can I deal from x punchthrough, compared to y multishot proc chance, z crit proc chance/damage, and t percentile damage increase per unit of resource?

 

Warframe is a straightforward game. You point at the things and make them die. There's little positional play, decisions are reactive to spontaneously generated threats rather than proactive towards preexisting threats (in layman's terms, you can't really plan ahead), effective range and speed play a minor role and there's no randomization and little variance in equipment, and having to have a flowchart and a spreadsheet for the newesst Damage 2.0 changes doesn't help.

 

So the metagame boils down to "Min-max, pay attention, hope for the best and prepare for the worst".

Changing the fundamentals of this metagame would mean reworking what Warframe is down to its core, and it's likely it isn't entirely worth it.

Making lackluster weapons or abilities be viable in the overarching metagame of Warframe should be the goal. Whether this is done via making numbers go up and down, or attempting to provide alternate utility via incomparables is up to DE, but it's the most readily available solution to the underlying problem.

[Nichizzy]

"I concur. We take a Warframe that excels at what's he's doing. That's why Frost is stuck at defense maps, that's his tradeoff for having an awesome and vital skill. But Vanguard Rhino are simply too good at everything. DPS, Survival, Mobility. That's OP's concern and he seek to balance it by suggesting a nerf to one of the stats of lesser importance - mobility."

 

 

Couldnt leave this one alone. Rhino's dps is indeed very high. On sedna....yuk yuk yuk. His survival rate is slightly higher than some frames, but well behind Frost, Loki, Ash and Trinity. He is very mobile now, that part is true. But a CC frame needs to be moblie.

 

Regardless, Rhino players are already punished for using the vanguard. It looks like he has two slab of bacon slapped on his helm with that thing on.

 

Edit. Go do a t3 mission solo and revel in Rhino's "dps". Once you are on your 10th stomp and things still are not dead, then come back to the thread.

All warframe skill damage have lousy scaling at high levels. At that level, you use the skill for utility, not damage.

 

His survival is not 'slightly higher' than some other frames. It is much higher due to Iron skin and cc immunity and naturally high hp-shields.

 

Frost don't survive unless he's static in the frost globe, making him just slightly more survivable when mobile. Loki and Ash can stay alive very well, or die very quickly. It's skill based, he needs to manouever around gun-fight and AoE effects. Trinity is excellent at surviving but only shines when fighting a single tough enemy, she doesnt have mobility or dps from her skillset.

 

Relatively speaking, Rhino's damage with his ulti is generally on par with other frames AoE damage. Some are better, some are worse, but Rhino is 'there'.

 

Bacon... yum. Anyway, imo it looks good, better that some frame's helm. Besides, appearance is subjective.

[Nichizzy]

Making Rhino slow would make sense...but only if the following were true:

• He had the most armor in the game
• He couldn't bypass his slow runspeed with wall walking or sliding
• He had a built-in resistance to knockdown

Since none of that is true, I actually think Rhino should be as fast as everyone else.  Either that, or make the above true.

Just want to add on no. 2 since someone replied on 1 and 3.

You can skillfully catch up with most players through wise use of wallrun, slides and Rhino Charge.

You cant 'bypass' the runspeed values through wallrun or sliding, but if that were the case, then it's not really a 'slow' Rhino, wouldn't it?

 

1) Nerfs are poor design.  Make things better to compensate rather than making everything worse.  Anyone who says you should nerf something should be put on ignore.

 

2) The Vanguard helm is the only thing that makes Rhino acceptable to play.  I don't care how much damage it can mitigate or how much CC it does if it's never where the action is because it's too slow.  Frost is a defense-only frame because it's slow and it's powers are all location based; Rhino only becomes useful if you can keep up with the other frames.  Otherwise we all may as well run Nova.

 

3) Further, removing the stat altering from Alt-helms has made the new ones useless.  While some people may want to be able to make the frame look a certain way but don't want the stat changes, some of us only care about those stat changes.  Make it a toggle if the stat changes work or not and be done with it, and give every alt-helm stat changes.  Otherwise, just make new skins and stop making alt-helms.

 

4) See #1.  I can't stress this enough; nerfs make your game worse and remove player choice.  One of the worst decisions DE made with this game was when they took Auras and made them into cards that took points.  One of the best decisions ever made was when they take those same aura mods and made them GIVE you points instead.  The first was a massive nerf, the second was a massive buff.  Buff == good, Nerf == bad.  I can't stress this enough.

1. Someone else replied.

 

2. Put a rush mod on, move efficiently and you can keep up.

 

3. I like the stats. I never said to remove stats totally, just to tweak it to a balanced level.

 

4. Incorrect. Nerfing and buffing are not inherrently bad and good. Neither do they individually translate to choices. However, imbalanced games removes players choice, eg: there's only 1 weapon which is usable, 1 frame which is viable, 1 helmet which is vital, so on and so forth.

 

Balanced game promotes choices. Balance is achieved through a combination of buffing AND nerfing. If an item is overly weak, by all means buff it. if an item is overly strong, then nerf it. When items are balanced, a player can begin to make choices.

 

I reiterate, a good game requires balance which is achieved by a combination of buffing and nerfing.

 

Case in point: Acrid was overly OP. Everyone used Acrid if they have it. Acrid was nerfed. Players start to use a variety of other secondaries. This nerf promotes player choices by normalizing the secondaries. So is this nerf good for the game? I sure think so! Because it leads to more balanced secondaries. Similar situation with Brakk.

 

Please also remember that, if items were continuously buffed, they would have to balance the difficulty by buffing the enemies. BUFFING the enemies is actually a nerf to the players as things become more difficult - it is game balancing in action. So there's really no way you can deny that a game cannot be nerfed.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Nichizzy

[Zephyric_Reaper]

So it all sums up to: Don't nerf my frame that can do everything because I like so much. 

And people who actually play other frames and know how they have weaknesses and strengths. 

 

Rhino already has the best skill set and to add up the best stat set is just sad, flat out sad. There's a reason why I always see a rhino in a mission and many times mroe than one. 

[Rhiasu]

Even if you nerf its movement speed, people would just resort to "zorencoptering" to make up for the speed loss.

[Deicul]

They really had to remove downvote button?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Deicul

[Medane]

To me, the tradeoff between Power Strength (which fuels things like Iron Skin) is balanced out well by the increase to run speed. While some of the other helmets for other frames need work, this one is a large bonus, balanced out by a large downside.

I don't think this particular helmet needs editing, since even with it equipped, you won't be outrunning a Loki unless you put Rush on.

 

Rhino shouldn't be outrunning a Loki period.  The fact that he can even compare to a Loki according to your statement says a whole lot.  

I support it completely.  Nerf it down to 15 and we're golden.  It gives Rhino a decent speed boost to be slightly more mobile than average, but not faster than agile frames without rush mods.