Nerf The Vanguard Rhino Helm

[rhoenix]

Rhino shouldn't be outrunning a Loki period.  The fact that he can even compare to a Loki according to your statement says a whole lot.  

I support it completely.  Nerf it down to 15 and we're golden.  It gives Rhino a decent speed boost to be slightly more mobile than average, but not faster than agile frames without rush mods.

The calculations in this thread also support my point. A Rhino with the Vanguard helmet still isn't faster than the Loki. The Rhino gets about on-par with Ash with the Vanguard helmet (about 1.125), but not Loki (which is 1.25).

The fact that a Rhino can trade quite a bit of durability for some extra agility is by no means a bad thing, as it adds more variety for fine-tuning playstyles.

A Loki definitely isn't played the same way a Rhino is, and a Vanguard-equipped Rhino actually has a different combat role than the regular Rhino, in my mind. The Rhino without the Vanguard helmet is more powerful, but slower. The Rhino with one is weaker, but faster. The difference between the two allows for two different combat roles for the same warframe, which is something I'm loathe to have lost from this game.

Edited January 4, 2014 by rhoenix

[Shanicus]

I always felt that the Vanguard Helmet works because the Rhino is an 'all up in your face' Tank as opposed to the Frost's 'This is my house, bugger off' style of tanking. The 0.9 speed was absolutely painful to use when playing with my mates because I was the big, heavy duty frame and I was always 3 rooms behind them, unable to actually 'tank' anything because I couldn't catch up.

With the Vanguard Helmet I could actually... you know, tank. One friend was in a Loki and the other would pick one of the various caster frames and it'd actually work out fairly well - instead of 'Loki starts fight, Caster shows up, everyone dies, Tank shows up' it'd be 'Loki starts fight, Tank shows up and Aggro/CC's enemies, Caster shows up, enemies die'.

I also see a lot of 'Well, stacking the Vanguard and Rush just makes him TOO fast' - I think opposite to this, with the fact that the helmet gives a 25% boost actually frees up a slot on the Rhino, allowing you to equip something else because you don't need Rush just to catch up to everyone. The Vanguard is weaker than a maxed Rush so it's not a perfect replacement, but it does help me out because I don't feel like I need Rush so I can actually play the role I was supposed to with the Rhino, which is mobile tanking.

[taiiat]

Secondly, how do you plan on achieving this "balancing" without primarily adjusting values, making numbers go up and down, buffing and nerfing?

it's pretty normal place for people to get all bent out of shape if numbers don't change to what they think is better. 

 

so the best option is to avoid changing numbers, but morphing what those numbers lie in to work just how it is. 

so for example, if we compare different 'powers' in previous titles i've worked on, let's compare, say, a lasermine trap that damages players and monsters alike with a continuous laser beam. if it is way too powerful, while you could simply 'nerf' it, you could also increase the costs to place such items, increase the cooldown between being able to place them, as well as add / lower the duration that they exist for. 

 

everybody wins. yes, that was some statistic modifying (and some statistic creating, as such laser traps didn't have a duration before), but we avoided changing the main part that players will be concerned about(the damage of the trap itself remains the same). so at the very least, a lot less backlash because players still feel like they have the same thing that they did before. the player doesn't feel like it's changed a whole lot, or enough to really worry him. it has infact changed a lot, but he doesn't feel like it has, so everyone can be content. 

 

you can't ever go wrong if changes you can make can be for the better of the game, without disturbing what players may like already.

Edited January 4, 2014 by taiiat

[Guristas]

Horrible post

horrible poster

[XDeathCoreX]

I concur. We take a Warframe that excels at what's he's doing. That's why Frost is stuck at defense maps, that's his tradeoff for having an awesome and vital skill. But Vanguard Rhino are simply too good at everything. DPS, Survival, Mobility. That's OP's concern and he seek to balance it by suggesting a nerf to one of the stats of lesser importance - mobility.

 

Past a certain level, a (relatively) slow Rhino will not be detrimental to the team, simply because the team of faster and mobile frames cannot, with ease, blaze through the game content without the support of a tank. It deters rushing and heightens the importance Rhino's role - a mobile tank (as opposed to Frost, a static tank), because the team then moves with and around the tank, not the other way around.

 

At low to medium levels where tanks are not needed and any well modded frames can move quickly through the content, then by your own logic, you should not use a Rhino because there are other frames which is better suited for faster gameplay.

 

True, and just like you - if I wanted it, I can be the first to extract with any frame I play on most games. But the reason why we assume player skills being equal is to have a fairer and a more level ground for comparison between the frames/items - which is really the point of the discussion.

 

And contrary to your claim, it is not about me or you being faster than a Rhino. It's about a Rhino being faster than most other frames AND tankier AND has great DPS as well. It's not a personal selfish request, it's about trying to look at the bigger picture.

 

by Helljacks logic, if you cant stand being a slow space ninja, then dont choose a slow space ninja.

 

by your logic, as the helm alleviates the worst weakness in Rhino and you're favourable to it, then DE might as well introduce helms which

- makes agile dps frames like Nova a tank as well (with a 5% loss in power strength, woops!)

- makes tough cookies like Trinity an all rounded dpser as well (with a 5% loss in energy, woops!)

- gives Valkyr high shields (with a 5% loss in armor, woops!)

 

The list is endless and you'll only end up making all the frames generic and boring. A weakness in a frame is to be overcome by skills - not negated by an item.

 

Any game, including co-op games, cant have perpetual buffs and sunshine and expect to remain fun after a period of time. Is this really that difficult to understand?

 

Not all nerf requests are born out of a desire to 'trump' other players. I have a Vanguard Rhino as well, and a nerf to the helm would do me no good. But in my opinion, it would do the game good which is better still.

 

Again, it is not personal. There's little sense of accomplishment from outrunning any frames.

But they want him to be slow again. Do they want to wait for him at extraction on top of the other slow people?

[XDeathCoreX]

Rhino shouldn't be outrunning a Loki period.  The fact that he can even compare to a Loki according to your statement says a whole lot.  

I support it completely.  Nerf it down to 15 and we're golden.  It gives Rhino a decent speed boost to be slightly more mobile than average, but not faster than agile frames without rush mods.  

Looks like it is about out running Rhino...As Loki. What a shame. You guys hate because Loki is slower than Rhino. I bet it's not by much, yet you're still jealous.

 

Babies...

[Deicul]

Loki is in no way slower than a rhino, when you put rush mod on both. People in this thread have been spending way too much time in the forums, giving off "valuable" feedback and not enough time playing the game.

[ZT0100]

 

"This is Rhino. An immovable force and highly resilent. Specialized in crowd control, he sacrifices speed for strength."

 

Vanguard helmet came along and now he has both speed and strength. Where is the sacrifice now?

 

A single piece of helmet can turn a slow frame into a fast frame. It should be slow to average, not slow to fast.

0.9   - slow                    Rhino starts here

1      - average             

1.1   - fast                     Then ends around here 

1.2   - super fast

 

Again, where is the sacrifice??????

[MsXylar]

Loki is in no way slower than a rhino, when you put rush mod on both. People in this thread have been spending way too much time in the forums, giving off "valuable" feedback and not enough time playing the game.

Agreed, Especially the original poster. Not enough game time on a Rhino with a Vanguard Helm on and he has the right to post to nerf?!!? Go spend more game time and than come back here and complain. My guess is he/she was beaten to extraction and decided to have a whinge that he was behind....Here's what you call an "Alternative"....Use rush mods, Zoren your way around and most important, player skill with short cuts around the tile set= speed and keeping up! Not rocket science boys, like most of you portraying..:S

Poster is just a troll and has his bites..Good job :)

[MsXylar]

Looks like it is about out running Rhino...As Loki. What a shame. You guys hate because Loki is slower than Rhino. I bet it's not by much, yet you're still jealous.

 

Babies...

Lol..cry baby gotten beaten to extraction?? Since when is that game play?!!? Certainly not team work! Id hate for him to be in my team. Sitting in a corner crying cause he is slow..I keep up quite well on any of my slower toons, including my Fat arsed Saryn (which I love the most), to my Rhino team mate..I call it skill in movement, knowing the tile set and a handy set of Zorens in hand. Which brings us back to "Game time".. How many hours on average have you guys actually spent, that are in here complianing for a nerf?! hmmmm..

"I see trolls everywhere" ;)

Ohh here;s a thought... Thanks to the DEVS for an awesome game and for all the hot fixes that they are trying to work on. Holiday period and all.. And thanks for a FREE TO PLAY game which can easily be un-installed if the user so wishes.....Especially if an alt helm like a Vanguard causes you so much grief in the game...

[Kaidinah]

No, please don't nerf fun.

[Cwierz]

No, please don't nerf fun.

"If you don't like slow space ninjas, then don't play as a slow space ninja"

^

This is what I feel like is the underlying problem. People don't like slow space ninjas, they choose rhino, get the helm. But then they don't want to realize that rhino is supposed to be a slow space ninja. DE has even stated that they regret adding stats to helmets in the first place. This is the reason why.

[MysteryNotes]

I support this completely. As much as I enjoy being saved by a speedy Rhino, the helmet needs a nerf. 25% speed boost is crazy for a tank! Rhino is like .9 speed, and 25% bonus makes it 1.125, which I believe is 4th place in speed behind Loki, Nova, and Ash. 10% okay, but 25%?!?! Pls nerf it, DE. I am crying as I am writing this.

 

So, you're crying because someone is running fast..?

"HEY GUYS LETS MAKE EVERYONE ELSE RUN SLOW SO THEY CAN'T REACH ME WHEN IM DOWNED!"

[rhoenix]

Here's another question - given Rhino's abilities, why does everyone mentally think of him as a "Tank," instead of "Heavy Assault?"

[Nichizzy]

It's funny that everyone assumes that Vanguard Rhino has the sole capability to ress other downed players, and no other frame can do it.

 

It's funny that everyone assumes that it's about outrunning Vanguard Rhino.

 

It's funny that everyone assumes that we don't have playtime on a Vanguard Rhino.

 

It's funny that everyone assumes that non-Vanguard Rhino cannot keep up with the group.

 

Rhino is more to a tank. His first skill is a balance of mobility/dps/cc. His last skill is mainly for cc at higher levels. At higher level, he dishes out damage with his guns under Ironskin, not with his skill.

[Dalewyn]

Agreed, Especially the original poster. Not enough game time on a Rhino with a Vanguard Helm on and he has the right to post to nerf?!!? Go spend more game time and than come back here and complain. My guess is he/she was beaten to extraction and decided to have a whinge that he was behind....Here's what you call an "Alternative"....Use rush mods, Zoren your way around and most important, player skill with short cuts around the tile set= speed and keeping up! Not rocket science boys, like most of you portraying..:S

Poster is just a troll and has his bites..Good job :)

To be perfectly clear:

 

* I have played Warframe since closed beta, my 5-digit account ID here should be more than sufficient proof of that among other things. I'm not some random scrub that just joined a month ago and then thought to spark debate without much fore thought. Besides, what I wrote and posted in the OP is at its core my opinion, and every person has a right to their own opinion and also to voice them. Now, unless you intend to infringe upon my right of voicing my opinion, of which I will gladly continue to discuss with you in PM, I suggest dropping it; you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

* I played more than enough games with Vanguard Rhino to realize just how ridiculously mobile and agile he is with that helmet. To reiterate, Vanguard Rhino ties for 3rd in speed and outruns at least 13 other WFs as a tank/bruiser, while keeping his trademark durability and stopping power that sets Rhino apart from the competition, that is absurd for game balance. And again, no, -5% power strength is quite literally nothing, it's barely even acknowledgable as a "sacrifice".

 

* I did not get "beaten" to extraction, in fact I am complaining of the exact opposite: Of the fact that I outrun and outmanuever pretty much everyone except for Loki, Ash, and Volt (and Nova looking at the numbers?). Learn to read before you accuse me with your stupid and unfounded assumptions. As much as I hate to get personal in a debate, you are surprisingly lacking in maturity and finesse for being 42 years old (as stated by your forum profile as of this writing).

 

 

 

"This is Rhino. An immovable force and highly resilent. Specialized in crowd control, he sacrifices speed for strength."

 

Vanguard helmet came along and now he has both speed and strength. Where is the sacrifice now?

 

A single piece of helmet can turn a slow frame into a fast frame. It should be slow to average, not slow to fast.

0.9   - slow                    Rhino starts here

1      - average             

1.1   - fast                     Then ends around here 

1.2   - super fast

 

Again, where is the sacrifice??????

This guy gets it, the idea of reducing the bonus movement speed (currently +25%) to something more reasonable (+10%?) is one way of addressing this balancing problem.

[Makya]

If those are reasons to nerf the helm, could you make frost faster?

[Thaumatos]

Regarding your first and third points, which are glaringly wrong:

 

1. Rhino has 190 base armor, this means he ties with Frost who also has 190 armor and is only surpassed by Valkyr who has 300 armor (who of course came after Rhino/Frost). Not "the most armor in the game" after the introduction of Valkyr, yes, but certainly still above average and signifying his archetype as a tank/bruiser. Of course, I will admit that armor ironically plays absolutely no practical part in tanking mechanics here in WF because health-tanking is nigh pointless.

 

 

Glaringly wrong?  First of all, you didn't even realize you admitted I'm not wrong with point 1.  So when starting your argument on its strongest leg, you fell in a ditch.

 

Secondly:

 

3. Iron Skin. Nosells CC. All year long.

 

You obviously don't play at higher levels.  Not arguing with people who don't play the game and just sit on the forums all day.  Goodbye.

 

 

Just want to add on no. 2 since someone replied on 1 and 3.

 

Yeah, poorly....lol

 

You can skillfully catch up with most players through wise use of wallrun, slides and Rhino Charge.

 

Translation:

You can skillfully bypass your frame's slower rate of speed by using the rest of the game's mechanics which still apply.

 

That was my point.  Way to read.

 

but if that were the case, then it's not really a 'slow' Rhino, wouldn't it?

 

Wow.  That's entirely my point.  Man what is with people on these forums not reading?  Am I trying to make points to children?

Edited January 5, 2014 by Thaumatos

[taiiat]

You obviously don't play at higher levels. 

that is not relevant. Iron Skin is immune to staggers, knockdowns, and throws no matter what level the enemy is. 

now, eventually sure, they'll do enough damage to kill you with that 'CC effect'. but at that point nothing is relevant because it would kill anyone, and anyone without Iron Skin a hundred or so levels before that.

[Darkseal]

no.

[Zhizn]

that is not relevant. Iron Skin is immune to staggers, knockdowns, and throws no matter what level the enemy is. 

now, eventually sure, they'll do enough damage to kill you with that 'CC effect'. but at that point nothing is relevant because it would kill anyone, and anyone without Iron Skin a hundred or so levels before that.

if by 'or so' you mean 10, and not 100, then sure.  But long before you get to the 'one CC hit kills me' level, you get to the 'two or three lucky range hits breaks iron skin' point, and now you'll spend most of your time and energy recasting iron skin, or changing to tactics that involve you not getting hit or taking damage at all.  You know, like every frame does at around that point.  Iron skin is actually pretty weak at higher levels.  Its still handy and can be useful, but its certainly not this magic 'extra 100 levels' you seem to think it is.  If you want an actual place to test this, I find that by about 30 - 35 minutes into a T3 survival, I start needing to change my tactics, or spend all of my energy recasting iron skin.  

[taiiat]

a 10 level difference won't be the difference between someone (we'll call average 700 Shields and 500 Health) without Iron Skin (or invulnerability ofc) dying from a single hit, and someone with Iron Skin (which on top of average Health and Shields, will add ~another 1500 Health on top of the two already existing).

 

getting hit by bullets is not quite the same as getting knocked down, dragged around, or thrown into the air. it would certainly take quite a few more levels on top of what another average frame would have died at for you to with Iron Skin on. 

 

now, i did throw a pretty random number out there, 100 levels is probably too drastic (and i might have been thinking of before Damage & Resistance changes). i probably should have said 40 or 50 levels.

Edited January 5, 2014 by taiiat

[Kaidinah]

"If you don't like slow space ninjas, then don't play as a slow space ninja"

^

This is what I feel like is the underlying problem. People don't like slow space ninjas, they choose rhino, get the helm. But then they don't want to realize that rhino is supposed to be a slow space ninja. DE has even stated that they regret adding stats to helmets in the first place. This is the reason why.

Nice try. When I started playing Rhino was a similar speed to all other Warframes. I was playing before all the Warframes were given different run speeds. The idea of some Warframes being fast or slow did not exist.

 

Besides, no Warframe should have a base .9 run speed anyway. Being slow is not fun.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Kaidinah

[MsXylar]

 

* I did not get "beaten" to extraction, in fact I am complaining of the exact opposite: Of the fact that I outrun and outmanuever pretty much everyone except for Loki, Ash, and Volt (and Nova looking at the numbers?). Learn to read before you accuse me with your stupid and unfounded assumptions. As much as I hate to get personal in a debate, you are surprisingly lacking in maturity and finesse for being 42 years old (as stated by your forum profile as of this writing).

 

 

 

Maturity and finesse?!!? Are you seriousl?! 42 or not, I dont whinge and $#*(@ like a child about an alt helm that NEEDS to be nerfed cause??!! Its too fast.. Lets talk about that maturity and finesse one more time shall we?!

[Dalewyn]

Maturity and finesse?!!? Are you seriousl?! 42 or not, I dont whinge and $#*(@ like a child about an alt helm that NEEDS to be nerfed cause??!! Its too fast.. Lets talk about that maturity and finesse one more time shall we?!

At the very least I'm not overusing exclamation marks and question marks, nor cursing so hard that it needs to be bleeped out, nor made baseless accusations on others' playstyles.

 

Please go take a walk, cool down, and come back with a level head. I'm more than happy to debate with you once you're being sensible.

 

-----

 

Now, so that this post of mine will actually contribute to the discussion at hand, let me comment on something that's been brought up a couple times here:

 

"But ma, Rhino gets left behind in the dust 50 rooms behind without the Vanguard helm!"

 

The problem of people leaving the Vanguard-less Rhino behind seems to me more a problem with how the game is laid out and the attitude of the players, rather than a problem with Rhino himself.

 

In my experience, I almost always see players being independent and relatively separated during missions minding their own business. The only time I consistently see all 4 players acting together are on defense missions where there is a singular objective in need of protection, when somebody goes down and needs reviving, or there's an elevator in the way.

 

The crux of the problem is that teamwork isn't a requirement to win and that the traditional "tanking" role isn't required or in some cases don't even apply in Warframe. With the exception of bosses, you are going to be almost single-handedly 1-shotting any enemy that isn't 1-shotting you in return, and consequently the gameplay of Warframe encourages a "every man for himself, get objective and extract ASAP" mentality in players rather than a "stick together and fight as a team" mentality shown in other team-based games like League of Legends and many MMOs like Ragnarok Online.

 

In situations where teamwork is required to win or even survive, everyone will slow down to the speed of the slowest member on the team so that nobody gets separated. If some members of the team become separated, the rest of the team will wait or even backtrack so that the others can catch up. Sadly though, no such situations exist for the most part in Warframe.

 

I think the problem of slow frames getting left behind and intentionally separated from the rest of the team is a sign of a serious fundamental flaw in the way Warframe's gameplay is designed, and it is extremely irresponsible of us beta-testers to be simply hand-waving it away. Yes, the movement speed bonus on Vanguard does solve the symptom of Rhino getting left behind (ironically Rhino is leaving people behind now), but it does so at the cost of game balance and does not address the problem at its core.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Dalewyn